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09:22:24 <hcf> abi: DP2 is Dropped Pomegranate Project, a meta-project to do the Right Thing, in terms of object-oriented component-based network-extensible software at http://www.dp2.org
09:22:24 <hcf> abi: language construction kit is a natural language construction kit at http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
09:22:26 <hcf> abi: numbers is numbers from 1 to 10 in Over 4500 Languages at http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml
09:23:16 <hcf> abi: jsr is the Java Spec Report at http://www.ergnosis.com/jsr/
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09:28:23 eihrul yawns.
10:24:04 <hcf> abi: lsp is Lisp Server Pages, a system implemented in Common Lisp for generating dynamic HTML from scripted pages at http://lsp.everest.com/
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11:20:37 <water> re
11:24:24 <eihrul> re
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12:06:42 <water> hey fare
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14:34:43 <water> re re
14:37:23 <eihrul> has tunes degenerated into a channel for the sole purpose of greeting people?
14:37:23 <water> since input from other people is pretty rare to say the least
14:37:23 <eihrul> so, how'd it go with that prolog guy?
14:37:23 <water> very well
14:37:46 <water> he has a lot of friends interested in funding new ideas
14:38:04 <water> (aside from the explanations we gave each other for our ideas)
14:38:22 <water> notably several VC's want to talk to me now
14:38:54 <eihrul> wrt?
14:39:05 <water> arrow and tunes and slate
14:39:23 <water> and of course the commercial apps deriving from it
14:40:20 <water> apparently i am infinitely more convincing in person than on irc or email :P
14:40:27 <eihrul> well, tunes is a VC's nightmare :)
14:40:40 <water> not necessarily
14:40:53 <water> there's nothing wrong with branching
14:40:55 <eihrul> or rather, we have a good marketting department :)
14:40:57 <eihrul> but that's it
14:41:28 <water> well, the issue may be to get split off from the current set of people
14:41:52 <water> the political flavor being one of the major factors
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14:42:31 <water> no, the current set of people would be useless to it, except as consultants
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14:42:44 <eihrul> nah, not so
14:42:59 <eihrul> its just that we lack coherence :)
14:43:00 <water> it doesn't matter what you think in this case, though
14:43:04 <water> (no offense)
14:43:15 <eihrul> nothing of what i think matters
14:43:30 <eihrul> doesn
14:43:33 <eihrul> 't stop me from thinking
14:43:51 <water> the crucial point is to get programmers together with the people (or just someone) who grok
14:44:09 <water> eih: i know, and i like your thoughts
14:44:37 <water> eih: but practical concerns dictate how i have to proceed in order to get things done
14:45:05 <water> 2 programmers working IRL with me would be worth a million times more than the current situation
14:45:36 <water> and the current situation with tunes makes that inconceivable
14:45:36 <eihrul> sure, tunes, as much as it is hypocritical, would benefit from a more dictatorial structure wrt production :)
14:45:52 water shrugs
14:46:01 <water> ideas are not people
14:46:13 <eihrul> ideas don't make code
14:46:15 <eihrul> people do :)
14:46:37 <water> yeah well with tunes, the people are disconnected physically from the people who grok the ideas
14:47:11 <water> which is why you need people in close proximity with funding to the people who grok
14:48:37 <water> just because open source makes net collaboration possible, doesn't mean it must be done without any kind of face-to-face discussion
14:48:38 <eihrul> nah, too many people grokking is disasterous
14:48:45 <eihrul> and i argue is what is ailing tunes now :)
14:49:06 <water> well we can't fix that being disconnected
14:49:08 <eihrul> not one single person on this project sees tunes the same way
14:49:16 <water> it would be idiotic to try
14:49:23 <eihrul> not you, not i, not fare, not billy, not jecel, not kyle, etc. :)
14:49:33 <water> so what? the same occurs for teams working together IRL!!!
14:49:47 <water> that's not the point
14:49:47 <eihrul> its not just conceptual
14:49:51 <eihrul> but implementationally :)
14:50:02 <water> again, it's not the point
14:50:38 <water> how many group projects have you been involved in IRL?
14:51:22 <water> how many group projects on the net were anywhere near as successful?
14:51:43 <Kyle> IRL?
14:51:48 <eihrul> in real life
14:51:49 <water> in real life
14:52:02 <eihrul> well, no group projects :)
14:52:09 <eihrul> but i can point to lots of successful projects on the net
14:52:20 <water> eih: and i know you're terrible at dealing with people IRL
14:52:25 <eihrul> that were successful precisely because there wasn't much room for disputing what the project was
14:52:45 <water> yeah well writing non-reflective systems is not too hard
14:53:00 <water> "it will do this and that and that"
14:53:15 <eihrul> why should reflective software be different?
14:53:23 <eihrul> reflective software can be designed and defined just as well
14:53:45 <water> heh reflective software that can change its definition can be defined? :)
14:54:29 <water> seriously, i thrive on being able to discuss ideas and code face to face
14:54:52 <water> if anything, that's what yesterday taught me
14:55:13 <eihrul> reflective software has to start somewhere
14:55:26 <eihrul> you can't change nothing into something...
14:55:28 <water> duh
14:55:33 <eihrul> law of conservation of software :)
14:55:49 <water> but conversations IRL are worth millions of times more than IRC
14:56:00 <water> easily
14:56:32 <water> you can't agree on things that need theory if you're a loose collaboration of volunteers with no commitment
14:57:47 <water> this is pointless, you're arguing for something you'll never do anything to ensure happens
14:58:10 <eihrul> nah, i wasn't arguing for anything
14:58:46 <water> so what the hell were you doing?
14:58:52 <eihrul> killing time
14:59:05 <water> kill someone else's time
14:59:57 <water> and thanks for proving the rule about channel activity
15:00:44 eihrul shrugs.
15:00:52 <eihrul> you already held that it was useless in the first place
15:00:57 <eihrul> i proved nothing
15:07:35 <eihrul> oh well, have fun with your VCs
15:08:41 <water> you have fun with your college classes and keeping my hopes up that you'll finish something you start
15:09:12 <water> and the programmers i met were more valuable than the VCs
15:12:25 <eihrul> infinitely more valuable than me, most likely
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15:27:55 <hcf> wb
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15:38:17 <water> re
15:49:19 <eihrul> so, none-the-less, people want to seriously invest in tunes?
15:49:44 <water> yes, as long as the tone of the explanation is suitable
15:49:59 <eihrul> "suitable?"
15:50:12 <water> which i seem to have a difficult time conveying through ascii text
15:50:32 <water> yes, as in explaining things in very practical terms
15:50:48 <water> mostly in terms of what the listener already understands
15:51:55 eihrul wonders if there's going to be two competing tunes-like companies now.
15:52:12 <water> there should be
15:52:35 <water> tunes is a level of development, not a particular strategy for getting there and implementing it
15:53:14 <water> even the name itself suggests a spec
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15:59:45 <water> hi rob
16:00:43 <Rob_> Hi
16:02:41 <water> are you a tuneser?
16:03:23 <Rob_> nope, but I'm interested in it.
16:03:53 <water> ok, ask plenty of questions if you like
16:04:20 <water> we also have an infobot that has little review entries (but very many of them)
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17:01:48 water thinks
17:02:39 water goes to get some squeak code to see if it can be used for implementing a tiny slate in squeak
17:02:58 <eihrul> go for it
17:03:45 <lar1> What was slate being implemented in?
17:03:45 <water> the new swiki look still doesn't look right
17:03:54 <water> nothing :)
17:03:59 <water> lisp, before that
17:04:16 <water> the squeak swiki is up, btw
17:04:21 <lar1> Great!
17:05:39 <water> there it is... from july
17:05:51 <water> maybe i should get the updated squeak version
17:06:25 <water> yeah i seem to remember some bugs getting fixed that i didn't like being there at all
17:10:30 <water> why the hell is 2.7 the version offered still on the main page?
17:10:42 <eihrul> old pages? :P
17:11:19 <water> 2 months at least
17:12:53 <eihrul> there you go
17:14:03 water tries to figure out which file has the most stable release
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17:16:30 <water> grr
17:21:19 water looks at this code
17:23:57 <water> cool, this really is something
17:24:21 <water> hey eih, this allows you to get self-like objects within smalltalk
17:24:54 <water> i'll just have to refactor it a bit to include meta-object stuff
17:25:42 <water> although slots and methods are separate
17:26:27 <nate37> why are they seperate?
17:26:46 <nate37> heh.. n/m... just i keep hearing that over and over 
17:32:18 <nate37> back
17:32:21 <nate37> woops
17:33:25 <eihrul> what is this you speak of? :)
17:33:43 <water> System-Prototypes.cs
17:33:58 <water> would you like a copy?
17:34:08 <water> (a clone ;)
17:35:34 <eihrul> sure
17:35:49 eihrul got Self "working."
17:35:59 <eihrul> although its unbearably slow on my sparcbook :)
17:36:38 <water> i can imagine
17:37:22 <eihrul> you can do stuff in it
17:37:29 <eihrul> it just takes awhile for Self to warm up :)
17:37:55 <water> well, at least you know what the warm-up process is :)
17:38:44 <water> god damn it, i just want to grab the vm, not the whole package
17:38:46 <eihrul> well, a lot of it is also paging because of the small amount of ram
17:38:48 <lar1> eihrul: You have a sparcbook as well?
17:38:51 <water> (for squeak)
17:38:56 <water> oh
17:38:59 <lar1> eihrul:  One of those big tan things?
17:39:01 <eihrul> lar1: as of recently, anyway
17:39:17 <eihrul> lar1: nope, its small and dark gray
17:39:28 <lar1> Hmm, ok.  You must have a newer one then I.
17:39:46 <eihrul> 3gx
17:40:04 <eihrul> anyway
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17:44:31 <water> damn it
17:51:56 <water> hm
17:52:25 <water> ok, it's pretty easy to separate this out into object-metaobject pairs
17:53:11 <water> doing multiple objects per MO would require me to register the objects as dependents of the MO
17:53:30 <water> which is more complicated than i want to deal with ATM
17:54:43 <water> so the idea right now is to have it delegate all of its protocol that involves object structure to the MO, which in turn uses the object's behavior object
17:55:33 <water> now, how to write a parser for this is going to be interesting
17:55:53 <water> we have to hide the smalltalk classes, and implement : as an object
17:56:16 <water> not to mention adding the appropriate stuff in the MO for the apply phase
17:56:54 <water> getting the mo to work right won't be too hard
17:57:15 <water> layering a reader over this just might be
17:57:31 water considers looking at the interpreter pattern again
17:57:41 eihrul ponders.
17:57:55 <water> re Fare
17:57:58 <eihrul> deforestation looks a lot like partial evaluation
17:58:16 water waits for squeak 2.8.3 to download
17:59:50 <lar1> Isn't there a 2.9?
18:00:10 <water> yeah but it has too much alpha code for me to deal with
18:01:53 eihrul really needs to read the PE book. )
18:02:42 <water> i don't remember if i ever finished it
18:02:55 <water> i know i read at least half
18:03:58 <water> hm my usenet server seems to be having some problems
18:04:10 <water> comp.lang.* isn't showing any activity at all
18:08:39 bineng joined #tunes
18:08:45 <water> bineng!
18:08:47 <water> ltns
18:08:55 <bineng> hi water
18:08:57 <bineng> indeed
18:09:13 <water> how's ur project?
18:09:16 <bineng> I'm sorry I haven't stopped by here very *ahem* often lately
18:09:50 <water> np
18:09:53 <water> what's new?
18:10:19 <bineng> I've not worked actively on any project for some time.
18:10:26 <water> oh
18:10:30 <water> what about beholder?
18:10:53 <bineng> neither has he; he's been practising RL.
18:11:01 <water> RL?
18:11:08 <bineng> Real life ;)
18:11:24 <water> um ok
18:11:47 <bineng> But how about your projects? I haven't even had a look at your page for a long time.
18:11:56 <water> so i guess you've been busy with work lately
18:12:09 <water> not much progress lately
18:12:19 <water> for a while i had very little time to do anything
18:12:38 <water> and only recently have i been trying to get back into gear
18:12:46 <bineng> University, but I don't blame that for doing nothing. I haven't felt I was at quite the right track.
18:12:53 <bineng> oh ic
18:14:42 <water> right now, i'm looking at some code for squeak that makes self-like objects
18:15:01 <water> turning it into a slate object system, hopefully
18:16:34 <bineng> Is Self better than Squeak in this respect, or is Self just more like Slate?
18:16:53 <water> self is better than smalltalk, yes
18:17:09 <water> but it's also closer to slate
18:17:52 <bineng> Why not use self from the beginning, then?
18:18:18 <water> because i can't run self until my ibook shows up, and squeak runs on everything and is self-hosted
18:18:34 <bineng> ok :)
18:18:38 <water> besides, i can't reuse self code anyway
18:19:10 <bineng> Are you here often?
18:19:18 <water> yep
18:19:26 <water> or available by email
18:19:27 <bineng> Are others here too?
18:20:02 <water> sure, eihrul and lar1 are here
18:20:17 <water> Fare lies and says he's here every few hours
18:20:34 <water> as for the lurkers, who knows
18:20:36 <Fare> lies?
18:20:42 <water> lol
18:20:49 <bineng> ah, Fare :)
18:20:49 <bineng> greetings
18:20:54 <water> that's the first thing you've responded to all day, Fare
18:21:05 <water> aside from "gakuk"
18:22:08 <Fare> water: I've been absent all day
18:22:16 <Fare> family reunion, if you see what I mean
18:22:24 <Fare> s/reunion/meeting/
18:23:08 <Fare> (I mean big family, as in 12th-degree cousins)
18:24:33 <water> so anyway
18:25:20 <water> it seems both Fare and i are trying to find people to collaborate with and get funding from
18:27:15 <bineng> To get funding I suppose you need some elaborate roadmap and time schedule. Are you really clear enough on what you want to produce that?
18:27:46 <water> if i can discuss it with somebody in person, apparently so
18:28:10 <water> i've started to notice that i am drastically different in person than through ascii text
18:29:11 <bineng> Really? Interesting.. perhaps you could tunnel whatever it is you want to communicate through a person? Just an idea.
18:29:32 <water> yeah that's what i'm looking at
18:30:08 <water> at the very least, working through the code and ideas in person is a hell of a lot more productive than any other interaction i've gotten for the last 2 years
18:30:55 <bineng> I guess that is often the case. A RL collaborator is valuable.
18:34:07 water loads up a fresh squeak image with the right tools
18:34:27 <water> self objects, the parser generator, ...
18:37:07 <water> damn it
18:38:43 <bineng> damn who?
18:39:07 <water> i loaded some packages in the wrong order
18:39:27 <Fare> there should be a meta-loader to prevent that
18:39:34 <water> duh
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18:51:37 <water> ok it wasn't the order it was that morphic wrappers still aren't up to date with the main distro
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18:52:14 <water> hey lb
18:54:08 <lispbliss> hi
18:54:26 <water> what brings you here?
18:54:46 <lispbliss> oh, nothing, just waiting for a download to finish..so I'm looking for interesting discussion :)
18:55:02 <water> not much talk is happening here :/
18:55:13 <lispbliss> yeah, figures..
18:57:48 <lispbliss> is lambda.weblogs.com run by someone in here?
18:58:01 <water> no
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18:58:59 <water> full house
19:00:22 <Fare> uh?
19:00:35 <lar1> Yup
19:01:28 water thinks this coding slate in smalltalk will work without a major headache
19:02:07 <water> now if only i can get TGen to work
19:02:18 <lispbliss> can squeak produce standalone apps that will work w/o the rest of the vm?
19:02:39 <water> not yet, although you can translate to c
19:02:53 <water> which is limited
19:03:21 <water> i suppose you could use the parts for creating plugins from smalltalk code to do it
19:03:54 <water> yeah, in fact, that seems like the easiest way to do it, but then you still need parts of the vm
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19:04:13 <water> hey ult
19:04:26 <water> this place just keeps filling up
19:04:41 <ult> 'lo
19:04:48 <ult> heh
19:07:24 <water> hm
19:07:44 <water> anyone have questions about slate or tunes or something?
19:09:42 <Fare> so have you resolved my perceived metalevel confusion in slate?
19:09:51 <water> yes and no
19:09:55 <Fare> ?
19:10:04 <water> i at least percieve it
19:10:19 <water> er... perceive
19:10:26 <Fare> weird.
19:11:03 <water> however, the meta-level distinctions are not wrt namespaces for slate
19:11:12 <water> except in certain cases
19:11:15 <eihrul> ah, finally, deforestation makes sense :)
19:11:22 <water> heh
19:11:35 <eihrul> it is just a form of partial evaluation :)
19:11:43 <water> pretty much
19:11:52 <Fare> eih: indeed.
19:11:59 <eihrul> though, how to derive it automatically from PE?
19:12:14 <eihrul> so that it is subsumed by PE?
19:12:51 <water> do you mean in the sense of abstract calculus or in the sense of compiler techniques?
19:13:05 <water> (which should be the same for most people but aren't)
19:14:22 <Fare> only if your PE does take into account datastructures
19:14:29 <water> well
19:14:43 <Fare> (which is of course easier if your datastructures are pure, and even easier if they are linear)
19:14:54 <water> for that, what comes to mind is the transformation calculus :)
19:15:03 <Fare> PE of side-effecting C mostly won't do deforestation, for instance.
19:15:12 <water> abi transformation calculus
19:15:12 <abi> transformation calculus is at http://wwwfun.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~garrigue/research.html
19:15:35 <Fare> J Garrigue is the author of O'Labl (now merged with O'Caml)
19:15:49 <water> abi J Garrigue is the author of O'Labl (now merged with O'Caml)
19:16:04 <Fare> a very nice guy. A japanesed french boy.
19:16:10 <water> whatever
19:20:14 eihrul ponders a good way to fit deforestation generically. )
19:32:32 eihrul looks at the transformation calculus.
19:35:56 water joined #tunes
19:36:27 <water> re
19:36:52 <water> damn, all these people waiting for a good conversation
19:37:15 <eihrul> problem?
19:37:39 <water> i just wish the channel were more productive atm
19:38:10 [TOPIC] water: TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org || Slate Programming Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || http://lambda.weblogs.com
19:38:22 <eihrul> make abi kick anyone who hasn't said something in 4 hours :)
19:38:35 <water> ooo :)
19:38:58 <water> hcf? :)
19:39:11 <hcf> that wouldnt be a job for abi
19:39:40 <hcf> water?
19:40:28 <water> what?
19:40:48 <water> i was just trying to get your attention
19:40:54 <hcf> ok
19:41:47 <hcf> remind me, what is fare doing tunes-wise except the funding thing?
19:41:54 <hcf> (i asked him, no answer)
19:43:01 <water> well, he has that lisp + source matching idea to boot tunes from
19:43:35 <hcf> he doesnt seem to talk about here much
19:43:51 <hcf> s/here/it here/
19:44:02 <hcf> seems to me, he should
19:50:08 <water> hm
19:53:26 <lar1> water:  Would you like Brianna to do that?
19:53:42 <water> no thx
19:53:56 <lar1> Ok
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19:57:06 <water> re
19:57:09 <hcf> re
20:05:02 <water> ok i've got basic meta-object stuff done
20:05:31 <water> it definitely needs to get rounded out, though, to avoid some potentially ridiculous bugs
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20:27:05 eihrul hrmms.
20:27:25 <water> yes "robust" is definitely not the word for this code yet
20:27:37 lispbliss left #tunes
20:28:31 <eihrul> guess noone's going to be driving nuclear reactors with squeaky slate yet :P
20:28:34 [NICK] transistor|sqweeky changed nick to: sqweeky
20:28:40 <water> heh
20:29:30 <water> the refactoring browser would help if it were completed
20:29:56 eihrul notes a similarity between tuple spaces and the transformation calculation. )
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20:30:03 <water> yeah
20:31:49 <water> i wonder if Fare's concept of context (which always for me has been the blurriest and most annoying part of the Tunes spec) is the key problem with him accepting Slate
20:33:35 <water> ok, i'm going to rely on people not to bypass the slate reader in order to avoid bugs
20:35:09 <water> hm there's no method slots in the prototype objects example
20:39:34 <water> hm
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20:49:57 <water> boy, this needs work
20:50:20 <water> this package doesn't even remove slots properly yet
20:50:44 <nate37> heh!
20:50:49 <nate37> what package?
20:51:11 <water> prototype-based inheritance for objects
20:51:15 <water> in squeak
20:51:20 <nate37> ah
20:56:55 <eihrul> okay, this ends tonights adventure into the land of the transformation calculus
20:57:02 <eihrul> s/tonights/tonight's
20:57:14 <water> heh
20:58:38 <water> i'm still making sure i understand all of the workings of this package so i know how to change things up to make the new slate package safer
21:00:24 <nate37> grr
21:01:19 <nate37> (wrong window)
21:02:45 <eihrul> not necessarily the wrong window
21:08:17 <water> heh
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21:10:32 [NICK] cor[wk] changed nick to: cor[hm]
21:10:53 <cor[hm]> diktuon.tunes.org is up again
21:10:57 <water> hey corey
21:11:09 <water> fully functional now?
21:11:10 <cor[hm]> mail coreyr@tunes.org with questions if you have them
21:11:59 <cor[hm]> it should be generally useful
21:12:10 <cor[hm]> i promise. :)
21:13:44 <water> hm ok
21:16:00 eihrul sleeps.
21:16:09 <cor[hm]> night.
21:16:17 <water> cya eih
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21:32:38 <water> hm self without a reflective architecture is not very robust
21:33:04 <water> you can't even implement protection schemes where the object filters out particular senders
21:33:26 <water> so encapsulation is not parametrizable
21:33:30 <water> go figure
21:33:55 <water> i thought they had a handle for that somewhere, but obviously not
21:34:20 <bineng> otoh, self *is* reflective, not?
21:34:38 <water> yes in some ways
21:34:44 <water> which actually reminds me
21:34:50 <water> there *is* a way to do it
21:35:06 <water> you have to use a mirror on incoming messages
21:35:27 <water> so it's possible, but it hasn't been done or added into the libraries
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21:35:46 <bineng> hum
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