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18:22:45 <lambda> fare
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18:25:32 <water> re all
18:25:46 <water> hi lambda. have we met?
18:29:22 [TOPIC] water: TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org || Slate Programming Language http://slate.tunes.org || Lambda PL weblog http://lambda.weblogs.com || Updated Mailing List Archives http://lists.tunes.org
18:31:57 <lambda> perhaps
18:33:53 <lambda> I'm not actually a big fan of TUNES itself, but I'm a fan of some of the ideas
18:34:00 <water> ok
18:34:12 <lambda> Slate seems a bit evil
18:34:27 <water> why evil?
18:34:35 <water> btw slate is not as presented
18:34:48 <lambda> object oriented languages are a bit scary to me
18:34:57 <water> heh
18:35:10 <water> its not oo, it's an object graph
18:35:32 <water> it *looks* oo and acts oo with the proper meta-objects
18:35:58 <lambda> I'm a Lisp man myself
18:35:59 <lambda> unfortunately
18:36:04 <lambda> or Scheme man
18:36:30 <water> yeah well i've never been able to effectively code in any lisp other than the early AutoLisp
18:36:46 <lambda> ?
18:36:51 <lambda> AutoLisp is pretty evil :P
18:36:52 <water> but i study lisp quite a lot
18:37:07 <water> yeah well so are scheme and CL and elisp and eulisp and ...
18:37:23 <lambda> Scheme is the least-evil (tm)
18:37:37 <lambda> AutoLisp was actually extremely successful
18:37:47 <lambda> but dynamic scoping is its bane
18:37:50 <water> the only lisp i've been able to stomach doesn't exist... described by baker
18:37:58 <lambda> which one is that?
18:38:15 <water> the one he describes in "critique of din kernel lisp"
18:38:29 <lambda> well that's not really that different from the sort of Scheme I'm using
18:38:40 <water> which is that?
18:38:50 <lambda> the language being implemented for Vapour
18:39:00 <water> oh you're the vapour fellow
18:39:05 <lambda> one of them
18:39:15 <lambda> me and Zhiv are the two most active members at this moment
18:39:20 <water> ok
18:39:27 <lambda> we're going to make objects mainly immutable
18:39:37 <water> of course
18:39:49 <lambda> functional arrays are slower
18:39:50 <lambda> but oh well
18:39:57 <lambda> you can optimize some of that out
18:40:01 <water> have you looked at linear objects?
18:40:08 <lambda> linear objects aren't really useful
18:40:11 <lambda> coding like that is a pain
18:40:13 <water> heh
18:40:27 <water> well that's why i do r&d
18:42:39 <water> btw, which ideas don't you like in tunes?
18:43:07 <lambda> it has this aura of baroqueness
18:43:21 <water> could you explain?
18:44:50 <lambda> it just seems so big
18:44:59 <lambda> and it has so little implemented
18:45:10 <water> well that's what the r&d is for
18:45:45 <lambda> Vapour is really small
18:45:48 <water> i have something like 2gb worth of cs papers on my various hard drives
18:45:49 <lambda> it doesn't do that much
18:45:52 <lambda> that's why I like it
18:45:59 <water> well
18:46:09 <water> tunes doesn't have to be huge to work
18:46:13 <lambda> I'm secretly a hardware junkie though
18:46:17 <lambda> I want to bring back Lisp machines
18:46:20 <lambda> and have hardware GC
18:46:23 <water> ok that explains a lot
18:46:35 water leaves lambda alone
18:46:37 <lambda> I was born when they started to die though
18:46:38 <lambda> hahahah
18:47:41 <lambda> what's your problem with Lisp machines?
18:48:03 <water> nothing per se
18:48:49 <lambda> I'm just impressed by the software that existed for them
18:48:59 <water> but lisp (or any current language) is hardly satisfactory for me
18:49:12 <lambda> well I don't think Lisp in its current form is satisfactoryt
18:49:20 <lambda> perhaps a synergy of parts of different Lisps would be
18:49:22 <water> heh
18:49:32 <water> no that would not be nearly enough for me
18:50:52 <lambda> what's your ideal language?
18:50:55 <lambda> tunes.org/HLL?
18:51:04 <water> nope
18:51:27 <water> btw, you can count hll docs as slate docs
18:52:11 <water> the language i would prefer would hardly be called a language in today's terms
18:52:54 <water> but this is pointless, i must read and develop some ideas
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19:00:53 <water> re nwsh
19:04:09 <nwsh> hey man
19:04:43 <nwsh> i think i might give this learning thing a go. any sugestions on what to do first?
19:04:47 <water> it's not always a good idea to assume ;)
19:04:56 <water> heh
19:05:10 <nwsh> ah
19:05:15 <nwsh> hey girl?
19:05:27 <water> just "hey" is ok
19:05:41 <water> what are you most interested in?
19:05:46 <nwsh> done.
19:06:17 <water> and what are you looking to eventually learn?
19:06:27 <nwsh> i'm not too fussy.
19:06:36 <water> fussy has nothing to do with it
19:07:01 <nwsh> well, i'm in a maths course now, (not really into it tho)
19:07:14 <nwsh> i can do that. and system programming.
19:07:50 <nwsh> hmmm
19:08:24 <water> maths is totally non-descriptive
19:08:45 <water> besides, you're missing the focus of the question
19:08:53 <water> what are you INTERESTED in?
19:09:37 <nwsh> pffft. nothing.
19:09:42 <nwsh> )
19:09:57 <nwsh> long story.
19:10:46 <water> well, what level of math?
19:13:13 <nwsh> i just finished year one (basic stuff). next year: vector spaces, matricies, linear transforms, engenvalues/eigrnvectors... blah... iterative solutions of linear equations... fourier methods, boundary intergral methods...
19:13:55 <water> cool
19:14:04 <water> the next year stuff, that is
19:14:23 <water> no tensor algebra?
19:14:43 <water> or are you just doing "appied math"?
19:14:57 <water> forget it, i don't actually care
19:15:04 <nwsh> ... talyor & runge-kutta methods, order, convergence, consistency and stability, laplace, more fouries, differential/intergral calculus applied to scallars/vectors plus 2d and 3d...
19:15:06 <water> in fact, this is distracting me
19:15:16 <nwsh> yer
19:15:19 <water> i.e. calc III
19:15:24 <nwsh> that's the one.
19:15:36 <nwsh> pffft.
19:15:40 <nwsh> simple shit
19:15:41 <water> yeah i took that my first semester and aced it... too easy
19:16:07 <water> but i got a job out of it running a maple lab for seniors and grad students
19:16:45 <nwsh> maple, i got that on my hd. :)
19:16:55 <water> for how much?
19:17:17 <nwsh> $50 (aussie)
19:17:34 <nwsh> i found a bug in the numbperm function.
19:18:03 <water> oh yeah, you're a student
19:18:10 <nwsh> well, not really a bug, but i found a way to cut execution time about 10000 times.
19:18:27 <water> sure
19:18:53 <water> that's bound to happen when people use C to write code
19:19:35 <nwsh> dosen't it all depend on the compiler tho?
19:20:05 <nwsh> i mean, x=x+1 is still inc eax or whatever.
19:21:33 <nwsh> i've stepped through some pretty brain dead C/C++ code with a debugger.
19:25:19 <nwsh> silence
19:25:30 <nwsh> golden.
19:27:30 <water> well if you manage to bring up a topic i consider worth talking about, then you might get a different response
19:27:54 <water> but i suggest you check out the other channels on this server
19:30:27 <nwsh> you want the numbperm.mws speedy method?
19:31:17 <Kyle> nwsh: that would be off topic here
19:31:27 <nwsh> yer, your right.
19:33:21 <nwsh> i guess i should go off and become a genius or something first.
19:33:52 <nwsh> see you all a couple of months
19:33:59 <nwsh> woops
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19:34:46 <water> geez, i just thought he would be more welcome in some other channels
19:35:01 <water> oh well
19:35:20 <water> hey kyle, you might like this book that just got published called "metapatterns"
19:35:39 <water> subtitle: "context and time in information models"
19:36:32 <Kyle> thanks water
19:36:45 <Kyle> I read {} or the logs already.
19:36:50 <water> ok
19:36:57 <Kyle> Your book selections are good.
19:37:45 <water> well, i have a very specific purpose in getting books
19:38:06 <water> which seems to override all other common sense goals for me
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