02:23:25 it says in the tunes faq that ya want to replace file systems with "orthogonal persistance of objects".... 02:24:10 now, what if the user dosen't want some data to persist. eg, opening a text editor and typing away, then realising what you wrote was crap and quiting the editor? 02:24:21 or do i just need to read more? 02:25:03 k. 02:25:06 nwsh2 left #tunes 02:53:35 keveeeeee joined #tunes 03:07:12 [QUIT] FareAway quit: Ping timeout for FareAway[ppp49-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net] 04:26:12 _101 joined #tunes 04:26:14 <_101> hi 04:26:36 <_101> eihrul, how are you progressing with pidgin? 04:43:44 [QUIT] ult quit: Ping timeout for ult[149.149.201.30] 04:44:05 ult joined #tunes 04:53:07 [QUIT] _101 quit: Bowser [d40]: server window terminating... 05:17:51 FareAway joined #tunes 06:09:26 krillace joined #tunes 06:19:56 [QUIT] krillace quit: Ping timeout for krillace[202.92.95.24] 06:47:37 clog joined #tunes 06:50:31 abi joined #tunes 06:53:54 hcf joined #tunes 06:54:22 icac, http://www.cs.orst.edu/~burnett/ 06:54:26 [QUIT] hcf quit: Leaving 09:32:52 Alex[] joined #tunes 09:41:04 [QUIT] Alex[] quit: Un jour, l'amour dit à l'amitié: "Pourquoi existe-tu?". Et l'amitié a répondu: "C'est pour sécher les larmes que tu fais couler..." 13:11:27 kev joined #tunes 13:17:38 [QUIT] kev quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] coreyr quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] nate37 quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] MysticOne quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] clog quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] abi quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] eihrul quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] smkl quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] mercy quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:17:38 [QUIT] kc5tja quit: king.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:18:01 eihrul joined #tunes 13:18:03 smkl joined #tunes 13:18:03 kev joined #tunes 13:18:12 clog joined #tunes 13:18:12 abi joined #tunes 13:27:21 Alex[] joined #tunes 13:38:22 [TOPIC] ChanServ: http://tunes.org/ 13:39:01 Kyle joined #tunes 13:39:04 [NICK] FareAway changed nick to: Fare 13:39:05 [QUIT] Kyle quit: Leaving 13:39:10 Kyle joined #tunes 15:22:07 Fare: how goes your projects? 15:31:08 slow 15:31:33 Doh. 15:34:10 eihrul wonders why the TUNES mailing list is so inactive lately. 15:34:31 everybody just seems to be waiting around for nothing to happen 15:37:15 I think discussion of simple ideas are frowned upon. There are plenty of simple things I would like to discuss. 15:37:54 There direct relevance to Tunes would not be apprent. 15:38:37 Maybe Tunes is too high level to be dicussed yet. 15:38:43 No one else is making use of the mailing list. 15:38:54 ? 15:39:06 maybe others feel the same way. 15:39:09 and isn't there any particular mailing list on tunes for handling "lower level" issues? 15:39:12 i believe there is atleast one 15:39:41 there are plenty of excited people when they join, but they are extingushed somehow. 15:40:09 sure, because ATM, we're a vaporware project 15:40:44 ATM? 15:41:35 at the moment 15:44:10 Vapourware? Maybe, you're right. Something must exist before people are interested. 15:44:34 Whatever it is, it will not be Tunes, so is it relevent? 15:44:47 By vaporware I don't mean we're destined to produce nothing, but as of yet that we're still trying to produce. 15:45:03 That's one of the things Slate is. 15:45:05 I know that was what you meant 15:45:12 Or atleast Pidgin. 15:45:55 How did either of these projects be authorized to become protoTunes? 15:46:05 They're not. 15:46:13 [NICK] kc-professional changed nick to: kc5tja 15:46:15 Or rather, they are in no way authorized. 15:46:26 They are merely proposals and experiments by TUNES members. :) 15:46:48 If we don't have proposals and experiments towards making something TUNES-like, then we will never have TUNES. 15:47:31 Now, OTOH, in the days of TUNES yore, we had too many disparate proposals and experiments. 15:47:47 No one was terribly interested with settling on a few main ones and more usefully dividing efforts. 15:48:09 Not even sure what happened to half of them. 15:48:14 Every great open-source project has a leader, not nessesarily programmer, that directs and authorizes development. 15:48:23 Tunes needs a leader. 15:48:34 ATM, the closest we actually have to that is Fare and water. :) 15:49:26 Fare does little, by no fault of his own, and water lacks true authority because Tunes is not his. 15:49:54 Nah, TUNES doesn't really have an owner or a leader. 15:50:07 The only thing you need to actually do to direct the development of TUNES is to produce something. 15:50:31 Water could make a good leader, but he acks the desire to be invloved in non-technical issues. 15:51:03 "non-technical"? 15:51:56 "You do this, you do that", "I will allow this module", docs, helping people get invloved. 15:52:05 admin. 15:52:18 Well, we've had a few people propose that. 15:52:29 Or rather, to actively administrate the TUNES project. 15:52:33 I've never pretended to have any leadership proficiencies. 15:52:36 Pretty much all failed. 15:52:42 and we know proposal is not enough. 15:52:48 Besides, I believe we need some kind of deep hacker, not a leader. 15:52:49 [QUIT] ree quit: work 15:53:07 I am in direct opposition ot Fare. 15:53:10 One thing that definitely would probably be a good idea is get a catalogue of all current TUNES-related efforts by members or mailing lists participants. 15:53:29 We need to have some kinda "State of the TUNES" check point :) 15:53:38 I am saying Tunes problem is purely non-technical. 15:53:55 sure, but what do you mean by non-technical? :) 15:54:11 I told you! :) 15:54:21 Someone who has authority... 15:54:29 to do control the project, 15:54:38 and be willing to do lotsa admin 15:54:58 well, we don't have that, we just have a commune :) 15:55:12 ) of listeners 15:55:27 or of intelegent non-leaders 15:55:38 Well, that is why I think it would be prudent to ask on the mailing list of current TUNES efforts. 15:55:55 (beyond just Slate) 15:56:10 asking for a list of current efforts will only get you that. 15:56:23 Tunes needs a dictator! 15:56:26 because asside from me and water, I have not a clue who is actually working on TUNES anymore 15:56:39 s/asside/aside 15:56:57 well, if Pidgin/Slate gets somewhere 15:57:06 and we have a foundation for developing a system 15:57:14 then it will be easier to focus efforts on stuff 15:57:15 brb 15:57:31 just having a lot of ideas and no foundation leads to something like Freedows 15:57:59 Probably a project even older than TUNES itself. 15:58:32 Perhaps next month things will stir up a tad. 16:00:11 why next month? Tunes is a seasonal effort? 16:00:53 no 16:01:09 16:01:16 because i expect to have pidgin stuff in reasonable shape by then 16:01:22 ok 16:01:32 in a few ways i get 3 weeks of christmas break to concentrate on stuff 16:01:36 s/ways/days 16:02:41 that sounds good. 16:03:02 Pidgin is a Slate implementation> 16:03:04 ? 16:03:52 for the most part :) 16:04:04 interpreted or compiled? 16:04:08 its more of a Slate - 1 ATM 16:04:20 interpreted for now 16:04:30 compilation will come later 16:04:37 "minus 1" or "dash one" 16:04:41 i am more than capable of making that happen, just that Slate needs to solidify more :) 16:04:43 minus 1 :) 16:04:50 ) 16:04:54 would use Slate--, but that has a side-effect 16:05:10 don't want to change Slate, I just want to make a first approximation of it :) 16:05:36 I understand 16:07:58 Kyle loves his spame filter 16:08:30 s/spame/spam 16:12:18 Fare is using erlang at work 16:12:47 eek 16:12:52 eek? 16:13:00 erlang? 16:13:02 its not lazy :) 16:13:12 abi: erlang? 16:13:12 erlang is [pl] a distributed functional PL at http://www.erlang.org/ 16:14:04 eihrul ponders. 16:14:37 It amazes me how many times the ostrich principle is invoked in the name of "computer science." 16:15:24 ostrich principle? 16:15:29 what, where? 16:15:34 Fare doesn't want to know 16:15:44 Most theories are useless because they do not apply to real life? 16:16:21 Fare: Ah, basically: If there's a problem that is not solvable via One-True-Way and is generally decideable, we should pretend it does not exist and try to make our systems do so as well. 16:16:45 or rather, is not generally decideable :) 16:18:22 basically: "Danger! Must stick head in sand!" 16:19:26 Kyle: that'd be more of a corrolary 16:19:42 P 16:19:50 but corrolaries are important too :) 16:21:26 if you had read enough theory you'd know it's "corollary" 16:21:52 blah 16:21:59 spelling is not import 16:22:01 ant 16:22:07 it is the concept that is :) 16:22:38 spelling is just textual baggage 16:22:48 HERE! HERE! 16:23:56 smkl: And besides, I've seen enough PhD theses to know your spelling ability is inversely proportional to the amount of theory you've studied. 16:24:20 eihrul shrugs. 16:25:19 i wonder why people don't spellcheck their phd theses 16:25:40 Well, even if they do, spell checkers don't make sure your prose are semantically correct. 16:25:44 Just lexically. :) 16:26:41 Eye wash heart bye hat probe lemma man a thyme. 16:28:18 do you have any general examples of your phenomenon? 16:28:36 Well, of poor spelling? 16:28:44 no the first one 16:28:48 the one I hate most is "lose" => "loose" 16:29:11 As for semantics, I've written plenty of papers where I missed a letter, accidently put a phonetically equivalent word that is spelled much differently, etc. 16:29:32 Yet still was composed of perfectly valid English words. :) 16:29:45 like "this is equivalent to halting problem in general case so we ignore it" 16:29:52 oh 16:29:52 that 16:30:50 Well, mainly as far as heuristics go. 16:31:25 Isn't TUNES a prime example here, though? :) 16:32:04 I was OTOH referring as well to how people dislike alias analysis. 16:32:27 And instead try to make it impossible for aliases to exist or for aliases to be exploited. 16:34:18 I love "alias analysis". 16:34:19 smkl: real AI people don't say that 16:34:28 that's why I love Jacques Pitrat 16:35:16 Kyle: sure, but you're not one of "Them" :) 16:36:50 I guess this is just my Rage Against the Purely Functional machine day. 16:36:58 s/machine/Machine 16:37:28 ) 16:38:05 eih: what's purely functional? 16:38:28 eih: purely functional is great, for some limited scope of problems. 16:39:05 Just referring to the current CMU ML bias. :) 16:39:08 the brain-damage is in wanting to have "absolutely pure" programs. 16:39:26 Or the way people taint Scheme with purely functional notions. 16:39:28 And other such things. 16:40:59 does somebody know the language Gamma? 16:41:31 abi: gamma? 16:41:31 eihrul: i haven't a clue 16:41:35 she doesn't... 16:43:11 why don't you tell her about it? 16:43:23 eih: my masters thesis was about a proof system for a purely functional Scheme 16:43:46 Fare: Eek! 16:43:50 eihrul: because i don't know the homepage yet 16:44:05 According to this scarce information, Gamma never hit implementation. 16:44:10 Or something. 16:44:16 Or atleast was still-born. 16:44:31 smkl: is it anything like funnel? 16:44:39 abi: funnel? 16:44:40 funnel is [pl] a PL based on functional nets at http://lampwww.epfl.ch/funnel/ 16:45:38 gamma is based on chemical paradigm 16:45:55 which means exactly? 16:46:15 and yes, i think it's closely related to funnel 16:46:50 okay, so concurrent things that join together to do stuff and or make new stuff :) 16:46:59 the semantics of join calculus is expressed by chemical abstract machine 16:48:46 in the most simplistic sense 16:49:01 [QUIT] ink quit: Ping timeout for ink[user-vcauv12.dsl.mindspring.com] 16:53:05 eihrul: well, that "eek". I ended with a system that could directly express non-termination, as opposed to most logic systems proposed these days. 16:53:50 Actually, I'm convinced Curry would have liked it. 16:54:23 It shows how you can really do reasoning within combinatory logic. 16:54:45 (although my exposition was based on lambda-calculus rather than combinators) 16:56:06 Will look at it some time. 16:56:25 (in french) 16:56:55 Oh well, guess I won't. 16:57:11 I'm not proud of it. There was one great idea, but the development was pretty lame. 16:57:53 (lame: no implemented, no theorem, only the intuition) 16:58:37 the idea is kind of a dual to the Curry-Howard isomorphism. 16:59:48 instead of having terms as proofs and types as propositions, you have terms as propositions and normal forms (values) as proofs. 17:00:14 (or reduction paths to normal forms, if you prefer) 17:00:35 truth is termination; falsehood is divergence. 17:01:07 You escape the problems that Curry had with his combinatory logic, by having call-by-value 17:01:36 (afaik Curry desperately tried to have his combinatory logic call-by-name'd, and failed) 17:02:09 of course, the system is non-deterministic, which breaks any equivalence between cbn and cbv 17:02:25 (s/equivalence/translation/) 18:22:13 Zodiacus joined #tunes 19:54:25 Zodiacus left #tunes 20:54:14 mibin joined #tunes 21:21:23 kev joined #tunes 21:21:23 abi joined #tunes 21:21:23 clog joined #tunes 21:21:23 mibin joined #tunes 22:44:22 water joined #tunes 23:17:31 smkl joined #tunes 23:27:33 water whistles some tunes 02:06:53 [QUIT] clog quit: hogan.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net