00:10:14 water joined #tunes 00:23:05 water` joined #tunes 00:23:49 [QUIT] water quit: Read error to water[c207-202-221-160.sea1.cablespeed.com]: Connection reset by peer 06:50:14 [QUIT] water quit: The Tao went that-a-way! 08:23:24 abi joined #tunes 09:37:39 Kyle joined #tunes 09:40:43 [QUIT] Kyle quit: adams.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 09:40:43 [QUIT] MysticOne quit: adams.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 09:40:43 [QUIT] coreyr quit: adams.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 09:40:43 [QUIT] clog quit: adams.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 09:40:43 [QUIT] abi quit: adams.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 09:40:43 [QUIT] nate37 quit: adams.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 09:40:43 [QUIT] _ruiner_ quit: adams.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net 13:38:06 Brianna joined #tunes 13:43:59 [QUIT] _ruiner_ quit: destroy what destroys you 13:47:12 god damn it 13:47:40 some configuration is wrong and i have no idea how or where to fix it 14:51:02 water joined #tunes 15:18:08 Kyle joined #tunes 15:28:22 hey kyle 15:29:32 you wouldn't happen to know a damned thing about lisp machine, would you? :) 15:29:47 +s 15:31:12 someone tell Fare that there is no VNC server for mac68k 15:31:26 i probably will be the first, but just in case 15:31:44 not yet anyway 15:46:09 *sigh* what a day 16:14:11 I know nothing about lisp machines. 16:16:52 *shrug* i didn't figure you would 17:22:27 hm mac vnc sucks 17:22:48 n/m about mac68k vnc not existing... it's just really really alpha quality 18:00:26 water joined #tunes 18:21:24 well this is probably the last day i would not want to see Fare dropping by 18:21:55 damn it, i need more information on how to configure this machine than what's in the docs 18:22:03 vnc sort of works 18:22:43 it's probably a better bet to get networking working somehow and rely on X-sessions to do the work 18:35:34 this interface is really impressive when you realize that it isn't textual in nature at all 18:35:47 but the explanations stand in the way 18:36:23 and i don't think that even the designers realized it enough to make effective use of the ontology 18:54:23 atg can be such an idiot 18:54:32 (sorry mlist remark) 19:00:10 water` joined #tunes 19:00:58 [QUIT] water quit: Ping timeout for water[c99493-a.frndl1.wa.home.com] 19:02:30 water joined #tunes 19:02:57 [QUIT] water` quit: Read error to water`[c99493-a.frndl1.wa.home.com]: No route to host 20:12:21 witten left #tunes 20:21:16 eihrul joined #tunes 20:24:43 how was the LispM, water? 20:24:53 still working on it :/ 20:24:57 see logs 20:25:06 both #tunes and #{} and #lisp 20:25:11 i posted to c.l.l. 20:25:49 if i get this thing to work, various tunes members will get at least telnet access, and maybe a small vnc window to use (one at a time) 20:25:52 well, i mean, what's it like in general? :) 20:25:55 oh 20:26:35 the ui is like squeak's VNC, only in 1-bit display depth 20:26:43 s/vnc/MVC/ 20:27:04 although the windows aren't movable... so similar to oberon 20:27:18 but it's a really really robust CL environment 20:27:40 s/really/really really/ recursively :) 20:28:14 it also has an equivalent of open firmware written in a low-level lisp 20:28:41 it's too bad that setting it up for net access is so obscure 20:29:10 i can't figure out for the life of me (and neither can tril) how to tell it what IP to have 20:29:53 but everything else we have pretty much figured out 20:30:30 no grep-equivalent? :) 20:30:36 hm 20:30:45 well there's the CL find and search 20:31:01 but the doc files we have not been able to learn to search 20:31:21 it's a self-contained OS, so there's a file layer, you know 20:31:49 maybe if we were emacs lords, but we're not 20:31:57 (it has ZEmacs) 20:32:43 it's got a really nice online hyperdoc system, though 20:33:04 full of commercial blather, though 20:33:16 the keyboard is quite nice 20:33:49 can't say much for the mouse, other than that it's nice to have 3 buttons for a system that *needs* 3 buttons 20:34:02 (like squeak) 20:34:13 i can't help comparing to squeak 20:34:37 The Squeak Machine? 20:34:44 heh 20:34:46 i wish 20:35:26 at any rate, the hypertext ui environment is really interesting 20:35:53 especially the plain command line being just an embedding of a hypertext system into a text window 20:36:21 because it really isn't a text system at all, although they don't explain it that way (unhelpfully) 20:36:50 i actually think that none of the designers or users ever realized this 20:37:11 which explains some of the crappiness that is found in some aspects 20:37:22 e.g. the object inspector sucks 20:37:52 the multi-modal interface doesn't fit the model either 20:37:57 but anyway 20:38:15 it hasn't been maintained in years, so this says a lot 20:42:27 btw, Tril is lending me his "A Theory of Objects" book by Cardelli and Abadi 20:43:39 and also Lisp in Small Pieces 20:44:00 a little light reading is always good ;) 20:45:04 at the very least, i got Tril to learn the UI 20:45:15 which means he can figure out the rest himself 20:45:28 doesn't cardelli have most of the stuff in postscript on his site? 20:45:39 although of course i'm going to get help from as many people as i can 20:45:44 most of it, yes 20:46:00 a lot of the things in the book aren't on his site, though 20:48:44 hm gotta go soon 20:48:50 was rather interesting how he expressed inheritance, i think 20:49:01 i have to work in the morning, and my bus leaves in an hour or two 20:49:10 yeah, among other things 20:49:27 or rather, in a way that captured and propagated changes down in the ancestry :) 20:49:30 like contravariant and covariant "self" 20:49:49 speaking of issues we must address :) 20:57:40 hm 20:57:49 interesting thought: 20:58:27 i have an immutable object, but two views of it use two separate MOs to describe meta-behavior of the interactions 20:58:57 so really, there's 2 separate objects with the same state but separate meta-state 20:59:10 ah whatever 20:59:33 right now i need to focus on a system for making lazy closures out of pidgin objects :) 21:00:10 well, arguably, if the MOs make the O behave in a different manner 21:00:20 then the two resultant Os are not the same :) 21:01:03 well that's why meta-behavior is "part" of behavior 21:01:30 eihrul nods. 21:02:21 oh yeah here's something 21:02:36 oh n/m you already grok that 21:02:57 what? 21:03:25 just noting that smalltalk has a very tiny optimization that it always knows in what classes variables are defined 21:03:42 as opposed to methods 21:03:52 eh? 21:04:11 the offsets for variables are known at compile time 21:04:51 which is why at the smalltalk vm level, variables are noted by their index 21:05:10 well, that is only possible in smalltalk 21:05:14 right 21:05:17 or atleast the compile-time part :) 21:06:41 (however, knowing in what class a variable is defined is not necessarily useful unless you know the structure of that class) 21:07:19 sure 21:07:49 another reason why smalltalk can do that and not other languages 21:08:28 well, any number of static languages can do that :) 21:08:39 yeah i just thought of that too 21:08:56 or rather, atleast static at the MO level :) 21:08:57 s/other/more dynamically-defined/ 21:12:48 i guess "dynamic" is a misnomer 21:13:28 how so? 21:14:30 because, the meta-level is static in most languages that claim to be dynamic 21:20:21 water` joined #tunes 21:20:28 [QUIT] water quit: Read error to water[c99493-a.frndl1.wa.home.com]: No route to host 21:21:57 well their claim to being dynamic is not the same as being dynamically-defined 21:40:14 be back on monday 21:40:23 in the morning sometime 21:40:33 [QUIT] water quit: The Tao went that-a-way! 22:49:08 witten joined #tunes 00:07:21 clog joined #tunes