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ωνω Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES
ωνω TUNES [tunes@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes
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ωνω Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998
ωνω BitchX: Join to #tunes was synced in 156763.500 secs!!
ωνω AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-125-101.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> :)
ωνω SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
07:00am
ωνω smkl [sami@ppp69.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes
ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes
<smkl> hi Fare
<Fare> Lo!
<Fare> sweety is down?
<Fare> my bro sends me C code to debug. Tuck.
<Fare> s/T/Y.
<smkl> sweety is www.tunes.org?
<Fare> have "numerical recipes" be published in LISP?
<Fare> smkl: yup
09:00am
<Fare> (or in ML)
<Fare> I'd like to teach my brother LISP, or ML.
<Fare> What do you recommend?
<smkl> hmm
<smkl> how old is he?
<Fare> a high-level language, whichever (tho preferrably not Java)
<Fare> 26.5
<Fare> elder bros
<Fare> financial analyst/trader
<Fare> bond trader
<smkl> what does he want to program? does he know C well?
09:10am
<Fare> nope
<Fare> he wants to program financial analyses of bond price variations, I guess...
<Fare> I added funny things to tunes/src/Draft...
<smkl> why is zsh link pointing to http://www.mal.org/ ?
09:20am
<Fare> old address
<Fare> thanks. fixed at next commit
09:30am
<Fare> grrr
<Fare> quatramaran.ens.fr is unreachable, too :(
<Fare> esmeralda.enst.fr is barely up
09:40am
π Fare/#Tunes is away
ωνω Tril [dem@ppp51.whatcom.pacificrim.net] has joined #tunes
ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250048.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> Hello..
11:10am
<Tril> hi!
<tcn> oh, you're there after all!
<Tril> eyah, I'm reading thru the logs of what I missed
<tcn> they're on the web now?
<Tril> they have been... just all in the same file, 1998.1225
<Tril> i didn't get the changeover to work yet
<Tril> there's an announcement of it on the main page!
<Tril> did you get mistaken because of the filename, or because you didn't see the announcement?
<tcn> I was looking at a cached copy.. got it now
<Tril> do you know lar1's email address?
<tcn> nope. Who's lar1?
<Tril> he was here yesterday, I wanted to reply to something he wrote in the channel about BeBox
<Tril> I don't think I know who it is
11:20am
<tcn> not Laurent Martelli?
<tcn> well, what did he say about Bebox?
<Tril> it might be. where is DA.uu.net?
<Tril> is it in France?
<tcn> doesn't seem to exist..
<Tril> he asked who made the bebox
<Tril> beholder didn't know either :)
<tcn> oh, and the answer is "nobody" right?
<Tril> eh?  Be made 'em, they just stopped because they weren't making any money off it.
<tcn> oh, they actually made some? do you know what CPU they used?
<smkl> ppc
<Tril> dual PowerPC, first ones were 66MHz then the newer ones were 133
<Tril> proprietary board, but it had ISA
<Tril> a geek port, and 2 columns of cpu use lights on the front
<tcn> haha
<tcn> wtf is a geek port?
<Tril> someone brought one in at the WCUG meeting (computer group for uni in my town, channel #WCUG)
<Tril> it's a port meant for hobbyists to make electronic devices to hook to, like robots and stuff. it has protection so you can't fry your computer if your electronics don't work
<Tril> it also comes with a huge number of serial ports, I think it was 4
ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> hi hcf
<tcn> hello
<hcf> hoy Tril, tcn
<Tril> i joined the freehive list
<hcf> freehive?
11:30am
<Tril> http://www.freehive.org/
<Tril>    Freehive is a project for non-programmers to contribute to Free
<Tril>    Software projects. "Non-programmers" in this context are all people
<Tril>    who do design (paper, web, or UI), writing, music, animation, video
<Tril>    production, etc. It's currently just this mailing list and a small
<Tril>    information web site, but there's more on its way.
<Tril> Beholder asked them to look at the tunes web page
<Tril> and give an evaluation
<hcf> cool!
<Tril> I'm sending a letter to their list now, to suggest they put their (currently only very inactive on Efnet) channel to OPN
<hcf> btw, is beholder officially anything of tunes yet?
<Tril> if he decides to. ...we're still talking about stuff
<hcf> whats left to decide?
<hcf> he seems to want to be coordinator and u seem to want him
<Tril> hm, good point.
<tcn> You scared out the pragmatists? :)
<tcn> I'm a pragmatist.. I think all this stuff about reflection, proof, uniformity, distributed computing, etc, can be made practical and efficient..
<Tril> well, any suggestion to make any system other than the most ambitious is always rejected in TUNES.
11:40am
<Tril> we must have ALL features available for the user
<Tril> (not simultaneously)
<tcn> As long as you actually START somewhere, idealism is fine
<Tril> yes, I agree. It can be made efficient
<hcf> Tril: hav u and Fare decided on any of the free os project hosting on opn related issues?
<Tril> But first it must be designed at the high level, before we know what needs to be made efficient.
<tcn> agreed
<Tril> No, I'm putting that into my intro msg to freehive too
<hcf> how about www.osdev.org?
<Tril> non-existent domain
<Tril> you think I should register it?
<hcf> if u feel its apropriate
<hcf> i think it would be the best for os project web presence
<tcn> Hey, what's the UniOS web page?
<hcf> tcn: http://members.xoom.com/unios/
<Tril> I think we have a candidate for a FAQ
<Tril> that's the 3rd time in less than that many days someone asked where is the UniOS page
<hcf> Tril: thats wher abi would come in
<hcf> and ultima's review links
ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes
<hcf> abi: unios?
<abi> i think unios is at http://members.xoom.com/unios/
<tcn> hehe
11:50am
<hcf> abi: what's abi?
<abi> i am a partially broken baby
<Tril> heh... some air filter company just called me and they are bringing a 3day 2night stay at any 5star hotel to the address they think I live at..
<Tril> but that's the old address, and I moved.  I even told her that in the conversation,but she forgot 
<hcf> Tril: know much perl?
<Tril> I don't enjoy programming in it, but I'm competent
<Tril> it's a pain
<Tril> I don't know the operators very well, and I always mix up the syntax. It's hard to debug CGI scripts, too.
<hcf> k, n/m
π hcf/#tunes is learning some perl as he goes thru trying to the broken parts of abi
<hcf> s/to/to fix/
<Tril> fixing perl is easier, I had to fix CVWiki to get TunesWiki running
<Tril> I learned C by modifying WWIV bbs code
<Tril> I modified wolfedit to support 2 mouse buttons
<Tril> that's Pascal, and I didn't know any pascal at the time
<Tril> and when I was 4, I was modifying games in BASIC on my TI-99/4a to give me unlimited lives
<tcn> uh, 14?
<hcf> heh
<Tril> nope :)
<hcf> farce did something simular
<Tril> what's wrong with abi
<hcf> look at ~/abi/src/Search.pl
<hcf> return "that pattern's too short.  try something with at least $MINL characters." if (length($pattern) < $MINL);
<hcf> doesnt work
<hcf> rite now, minl is 3, if a 2 letter pattern is used, it returns nothing instead of that msg
12:00pm
<hcf> Tril: any ideas?
<Tril> how do you know what it returns
<hcf> do 'abi: search for inf' then 'abi: search for in'
<Tril> does it get to the next line?
<Tril> abi: search for inf
<Tril> abi: search for in
<Tril> abi: search for in
<tcn> abi: search for inf
<hcf> w/ 'in' it doesnt do the "Looking for $pattern:" thing, but it doesnt tell the pattern is too short either
<hcf> s/tell/tell u/
12:10pm
<Tril> in Question.pl, (I think that's where search is called) it doesn't look like it does anything with the return value from search
<hcf> hmm, u rite
<Tril> maybe it's supposed to do that. Does it log the message instead of printing it?
<hcf> sub msg sends it via irc and via &status
<hcf> see IrcExtras.pl for sub msg
<Tril> change it to   if (length($pattern) < $MINL) { &msg("..."); return; }
<Tril> s/{/then {/
<hcf> return 'NOREPLY'; # perhaps better
<hcf> see the 1st if ?
<tcn> hcf: what's abi's homepage?
<hcf> uses &msg then does return 'NOREPLY';
<hcf> tcn: abi doesnt hav one yet, but...
<hcf> tcn: www2.tunes.org/~nef/ will point to it when thers something ther
<Tril> abi: where is the infobot guide
<abi> it has been said that the infobot guide is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot/infobot_guide.html
<hcf> tcn: the something will be a doc explaining all the functions and such
<hcf> tcn: im writing a fuller guide
<tcn> ok.. hey, it looks pretty cool so far..
<hcf> the official guide doesnt even hav 'search for'
π Fare/#Tunes is back
<Tril> hi Fare
12:20pm
<Tril> hcf: what "1st if". 
<hcf> the "if (0 & $addressed && ($msgType ne 'dcc_chat'))"
ωνω Beholder [beholder@ppp-097.m2-2.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<Fare> Tril: any comment about my bro (see my last presence here in the logs)?
<Beholder> Hey Tril
<Beholder> Woa.. busy channel today :)
<tcn> yeah
<Fare> hey, Be*!
<Beholder> Hey Fare :)
<Tril> Beholder!
ωνω SignOff abi: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes
<Tril> note: the logs are working, and i noticed u guys were talking about warez. That's explicitly illegal on openprojects.
ωνω binEng [andman4@dialup94-2-5.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes
<Tril> (logs for the last few days are all in the file for the 25th)
<binEng> hi Tril!
<Tril> Hey, Anders!
<binEng> and Beholder
<binEng> and everybody else :)
<Tril> Welcome.  
ωνω SignOff abi: #TUNES (hcf)
<binEng> tnx
<Fare> Beholder: what news on the UniOS front?
<Beholder> Fare:  Not much this morning.  The holiday's slowed us down quite a bit.  But when some of the other members come back, there will be a whole wack of mail coming in :)
<binEng> Hmm, no op in here? :(
<Tril> no ops needed on openprojects net.
<binEng> really?
<tcn> hehe.. seems like TUNES really took off over the holidays
<hcf> binEng: this aint efnet
<Tril> channel services (nickserv/chanserv) let you register channels and nicks
ωνω mode/#TUNES [+o Fare] by ChanServ
ωνω mode/#TUNES [-o Fare] by Fare
<Beholder> Cool :)
12:30pm
<Beholder> I guess this isn't the kind of place that attracts abusive poeople, so an OP is not that imporant
<tcn> except QZ :)
<Tril> I'd give all you regulars ops, except I can't, because no one has registered their nick!
<Beholder> Seen bin... imagine a UniOS chan here :)
<Beholder> tcn:  QZ's never bothered me :)  He's very interesting to talk to.  
<binEng> looks quite advantageous, I have to admit
<tcn> Be: So I see.. wow :) Last time I saw him he was talking about putting anti-disassembly tricks in Brix.. as if he thinks he's gonna be the next Bill Gates
<binEng> geez
<Tril> billy wants the OS to enforce copyrights.
<tcn> ugh
<Tril> can u imagine how many seconds after a crippled ver. of windows it would be before a crack came out?
<Fare> I want the OS to enforce copyrights, too, in my way: I want that there be no copyrights!
<tcn> hahaha
<Tril> the OS that disallows copyrights? could be very unpopular.
<Tril> with GNU people, too!
<tcn> I just can't accept an OS that does stuff behind your back..
<Fare> oh oh, dinner time!
<Fare> Tril: no, not disallowing. Just have the level of enforcement required to protect copyrights: zero.
π Fare/#Tunes is away (dinner)
<Beholder> I don't mind if people use tricks to enforce copyright in an OS... it's part of the freedom you give them to develop for your system
<Tril> you eat dinner at 8:30 everyday don't you. that's quite late.
<Beholder> I wouldn't copyright the OS itself... but programmers deserve some protection measures
<Tril> Beholder: so you agree with me that OS should be Public Domain?  You know, GPL code IS copyrighted. It's just ALSO copylefted -- using the copyright holder's right to put restrictions on distribution-- the restriction that source must be distributed, too.
<tcn> Well, programmers could use registration numbers, stuff like that.. but let's keep the OS out of it.
<binEng> serials never work any good... there's always serialz
<Beholder> I have to go afk for now... Be back in about a half hour
12:40pm
<tcn> later
<Tril> I'll take this opportunity to go away for half an hour, too
π Tril/#tunes is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog On]
π Tril/#tunes is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 0 min 11 secs
π binEng/#tunes has nowhere to go... so he stays
<Tril> err, I mean logoff for half an hour
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (ωνω Total uptime :    0d  1h 44m 25s)
<tcn> yeah, same here
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
<binEng> What's the meaning in coming here if everybody just leaves when I come?
<Beholder> :)
<Beholder> I have to go to the gocery store to get something... 
<Beholder> :)
<binEng> hmpf
<binEng> So, why is www.tunes.org inaccessible so often?
<binEng> or is EVERYBODY gone?
<hcf> binEng: unstability of the host
<hcf> binEng: try www2.tunes.org
<hcf> s/host/host and or its connection/provider/
<binEng> ahh, contact
ωνω AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-121-233.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> hellows
<AlonzoTG> :)
π binEng/#tunes is browsing the tunes' site
<binEng> AlonzoTG: bad timing, half the chan just left
<AlonzoTG> Who was here?
<binEng> Tril, tcn, Beholder (he's afk)
<AlonzoTG> okay
<hcf> and Fare is having dinner
<AlonzoTG> I'll just mellow here
<AlonzoTG> NanoGuy has arrived!
<AlonzoTG> He is on #nano on Efnet
<binEng> oh
12:50pm
ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes
π AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations abi!" :-)
ωνω SignOff abi: #TUNES (Read error to abi[bespin.ml.org]: EOF from client)
ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250044.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> everyone back?
<AlonzoTG> om
<tcn> Alonzo! long time no see
<binEng> I've been back all the time
<tcn> yeah, we're just waiting for Tril
<AlonzoTG> I rearanged the source tree again this morning...
<AlonzoTG> It's getting close to it's final form...
<AlonzoTG> Then I have to figure out the specifics of how to code things so they worktogeather....
01:20pm
ωνω Tril [dem@ppp73.whatcom.pacificrim.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> welcome back
<AlonzoTG> om
<binEng> about time :)
<Tril> re
<binEng> Tril: did you ever post that relection explaination?
<binEng> reflection
<Tril> yup, http://www2.tunes.org/list/tunes/9812/msg00073.html
<Tril> I thought you said you were on the tunes list?
<binEng> strange, couldn't see it in the thread list
<binEng> me? haven't said that
<Tril> someone on UniOS list did then.
<binEng> :)
<binEng> Beholder isn't back yet, is he?
<tcn> nope
01:30pm
<binEng> Tril: is reflection the process where the system customizes itself to better fit the user's behavior?
<tcn> I thought reflection means a program can manipulate itself (using methods formalized in the language)
<binEng> Manipulate what aspect of itself?
<tcn> anything (?)
<binEng> ehh that shouldn't be possible
π Beholder/#tunes is back... and this time it's personal... "Beholder IV: The revenge of Beholder" hehehe
<binEng> ?
<binEng> wb anyway
<tcn> I think the main point is that you can modify programs while they're running
<Beholder> Sorry... stupid joke :)
<tcn> No restarts/reboots necessary
<binEng> modify HOW?
<binEng> settings, or?
<tcn> Let's be practical: You can edit the source code for an object, compile it, and replace the old version of that object, all "on the fly"
<Beholder> Like our UniOS System Abstract (Kernel?)  It would be like having an object that monitors how the system is being used, and then plugs in the right kernel for the need
<binEng> ic
<Beholder> Not just a flexible system, but completly adaptive also
<smkl> reflection means that a system is able to metaprogram itself. or something
<binEng> Aha that would be to use mOS creatively
<Tril> Beholder: you know dune books too? no on else in tunes does. i love 'em
<tcn> I do
<binEng> possible... even if we can't have the machine write its own programs
<smkl> dune books are entertaining
<Beholder> Tril:  3/4 done Chapterhouse... it's one of the best series's I've ever read
<AlonzoTG> I reed it all yearz ago...
<AlonzoTG> :P
<smkl> how many parts are there?
<Tril> yeah,all that description of reflection is right
<tcn> whew :)
<binEng> So it wasn't harder, eh? :)
<Tril> I've read it a couple times (those last 2 of 6 tho chapterhouse and heretics I only read once so far)
<Tril> Ive read god emperor the most
<Tril> 6 books afaik
01:40pm
<tcn> I've only read the first 2.. I read Dune itself 3 times or so. You know how sequels are..
<Beholder> Godemporor is my favorite also... I think it was his best work.
<tcn> That's the 3rd, right?
<Tril> 4th
<Beholder> I also very much liked Children of Dune...
<tcn> oh yeah, there wre Children of Dune and Dune Messiah..
<tcn> which one was 2nd?
<smkl> dune messiah
<Tril> tcn:whew what?bineng what wasnt harder
<Tril> binEng: try reload the threads  listing
<binEng> Tril, reflection was alot easier than it sounds like when you try to explain it :P
<tcn> Tril: I'm not misleading people about reflection
<binEng> hehe
<Tril> I may have misused it in that mail
<smkl> i don't think they have translated more than 2 books to finnish
<Tril> the holy bible and...
<tcn> I gotta get to work on translating the Tunes glossary to English :)
<Tril> haha
π smkl/#tunes smurfs Tril
<tcn> hahahaha
<Tril> smkl:didnt intend that no one would want to translate to finnish, I like Finland they have good demos and good encryption laws
<Tril> Finland is bilingual,right?
<smkl> sort of
<tcn> smkl: How cold is it today?
<smkl> tcn: wait
<Beholder> It's -28 C in Northern Ontario
<tcn> It's.. cooold.. here
<smkl> 0
<binEng> smkl: Finnish and Swedish?
<tcn> I guess Finland's not cold after all
<smkl> binEng: yes ...
<Tril> I thought Finland was bilingual Finnish and English
<smkl> cyberiad is the best scifi book: it has reflective virtual reality system
<Tril> stanislaw lem's cyberiad is very short. i was disappointed.
<smkl> they have different editions of it
<tcn> Beholder: For OS installation, how about a network install? If the OS is small, that would be fast..
<binEng> smkl: How is it nowadays... Swedish isn't understood in most parts of the country, is it
<Beholder> I think it can fit within our design.  I like network install also
<smkl> binEng: true
<binEng> a pity
01:50pm
<Beholder> Too damn many ways to write "a" :)
<binEng> nah, every one is necessay
<tcn> If we avoid unnecessary bitmap graphics, and don't use GCC, we can make it small.
<binEng> necessary
<Tril> what does network install have to do with graphics
<binEng> εla, δdel, φdla...
<tcn> graphics = waste of bandwidth :)
<binEng> heh
<Tril> beholder: I'm not sure what you said has to do with reflection (or how):
<AlonzoTG> Fractal graphics: They look better at High resolution and they are less than a 1 kilobyte...
<Beholder> Vector graphics can be transfered quickly
<Tril> <Beholder> Like our UniOS System Abstract (Kernel?)  It would be like having an
<Tril> object that monitors how the system is being used, and then plugs in the right kernel for the need
<tcn> oh yeah, we should have a vector graphics thing for IRC.. like, "here, check out this sketch"
<binEng> Tril: that's changing to the users needs...
<Tril> binEng: www.tunes.org doesn't work?  That's in France ,so I don't try it much to get the chance to see whether it works
<tcn> Internet's gotten pretty flaky
<binEng> Tril, are www. and www2. exact mirrors?
<Tril> ok, well replacing the entire kernel all at once could be construed as reflection. But the mechanism to do that would have to be inside the kernel itself, otherwise it would not be reflection in the kernel. It may be reflection in the system as a whole, if the part that swapped kernels was running under one of them at the time it does the swap.
<Tril> they are mirrors except for CGI scripts, which all run on www2
<Beholder> Tril: Is reflection not the ability for the system to moniter how it is being using and change itself to suit?
<AlonzoTG> Beholder: I await that e-mail
<Beholder> Alonzo :)  I'll look at it right now :)
<Tril> That is a reflective system.  However, other uses of the term are "reflective language"= ability to modify the language from within programs in that language  ;  reflective program=program that edits its own source (NOT binary, unless it is also a compiler)
<Tril> changing itself to how it is used (as written in my 00074 message) is not the def. of reflection. Although such feature REQUIRES reflection to exist
<Tril> reflection makes things like that possible
<Tril> in this case, reflection being system-wide reflection, which is that every element in the system is modifiable by some other element in the system (making the entire system reflective as a whole).
02:00pm
<binEng> if a text editor is run as a script, and the user edits the script with this editor, would that be reflection?
<tcn> haha
<Beholder> brb
<Tril> partially it would be
<binEng> interesting scenario, not?  :)
<binEng> brb
<Tril> it's not full reflection until you recompile the changes and have them take effect
<tcn> yeah.. I guess it's "reflection at its crudest form"
<Tril> It would be a fully reflective text editor if it let you text-edit its own source, compile, and jump into the new executable without quitting :)
<tcn> Hey, I may have a new prototype today..
<Tril> do you have an old one?
<tcn> If I work hard..
<binEng> back
<Beholder> I'm reading the old one's doc
<tcn> Yeah, my old OS prototype is based around a Forth interpreter written in ASM
<Beholder> It is a "prototype" :)
<Tril> is this Alonzo or tcn's prototype? I'm confused. I thought Beholder was looking at Alonzo's prototype.
<tcn> I'm talking about my own prototypes
<Beholder> Sorry, I'm looking at Alonz's right now :)
<tcn> sorry
<AlonzoTG> ues, 
π Tril/#TUNES panics: TOO MANY OSES!! ACK!
<Beholder> Sorry for the confusion :)
<AlonzoTG> I made many changes to my prototype. 
<Tril> I mean, it's possible you are working together
<AlonzoTG> I ordered the Forth Programmer's handbook today so in a few days I will have some intelligent comments on the language. 
<binEng> this many projects that strive for the same thing SUX
<AlonzoTG> Hey, TCN is welcome to work on my OS. =P
<Tril> do they though?
<tcn> oh yeah. Let's swap, Alonzo..
<tcn> One of these days/months/years we'll merge everything into one project
<AlonzoTG> This is just a skeletin of my os, no real work has gone into it yet...
<Tril> I agree with tcn
<Beholder> Some projects are making strides twords that goal
<Tril> But then again, it's also good to try lots of different OS models
<Tril> isn't it?
<tcn> yeah. But it's good to talk.. we're all working on basically the same thing
<binEng> Tril: yep
<Beholder> All ideas are important... thats UniOS's #1 rule
<tcn> The time is right for a new OS for widespread use, a successor to Linux..
02:10pm
<Beholder> Something a little more fllexible, and a little less Unix
<tcn> yeah.. heh
<Beholder> But we all seem to follow a similar path... who here does not incorporate objects?
<binEng> I agree
<Tril> the term object is meaningless unless defined. there's so many different kinds of object
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<tcn> My new prototype is what Beholder calls a "No kernel object system"
<binEng> I think Tril has a quite different view on objects than I have
<Beholder> I've always thought of objects as entities with methods, data, and events...  
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<Tril> binEng: did you read my reply to you ?  that is msg00074.html, about my object model
<binEng> I'll have a look
<tcn> Beholder: events?
<binEng> I'd say just methods. Data is accessed throu methods.
<tcn> that's what I thought, too
02:20pm
<Beholder> Events based on what they observe in the rest of the system. 
<tcn> Actually, an object could *be* a function, with other objects (functions) and data as "children"
<Tril> Beholder: I don't understand what you just said about events
<Beholder> In a message based system, almost every major system action is broadcast, the event object watches the broadcasts to determine when to execute.
<binEng> "when to execute" <_ 
<binEng> execute what?
<Beholder> A method... 
<Beholder> Anyone here program in Win32 API?  It's the only idea they use that I like :)
<tcn> I've seen events in X
<Tril> I know how the win32 api works, input to programs is done by events. Those are just regular messages which the GUI sends to specific interfaces in the application (all applications must have these interfaces)
<Beholder> Yep.  An object can contain an event under that premise.
<Tril> I didn't know that windows had global system events that it notified programs of.
<Tril> maybe shutdown.?
<binEng> they'll notice anyway :)
<Tril> unix uses signals kind of like message passing:)
02:30pm
<binEng> aren't signals quite rude?
<tcn> Ok, I guess events are just a GUI concept.. We shouldn't burden our object paradigm with special "events"
<Beholder> Yep it's a message area in memory.  Every message that happens can be observed.  For example, a program can know where the mouse is, even if it's not on the current frame.
<AlonzoTG> hmm, 
<AlonzoTG> Want to write the GUI for the prototype?
<AlonzoTG> :P
<tcn> I was gonna define an abstract "message passing" system, where the actual passing is implementation-dependent. Could be by registers, memory, Unix pipes, network...
<binEng> sounds good
<binEng> generic
<tcn> it's still very abstract. I'm trying to implement it tonight
<AlonzoTG> kule
<AlonzoTG> :)
<AlonzoTG> kan i peek at yer source?
<Tril> I like my method better, instead of having a message send, you form new functions and pass them as arguments to the evaluator to run them.
<tcn> alonzo: did you get my dcc?
<AlonzoTG> NOPE!!
<tcn> alonzo: let me try that again
<AlonzoTG> uh, 
>>> Tril [dem@ppp73.whatcom.pacificrim.net] requested PING 915057495 282089 from #TUNES
<tcn> did it work?
<AlonzoTG> I'm running like D O S over here....
<AlonzoTG> :P
<binEng> lol
<AlonzoTG> yep, I thinkso...
<tcn> just shorten the filename
<tcn> that's my old prototype there
02:40pm
<tcn> Tril, what was that? About forming new functions..?
<Tril> TUNES uses a fully functional evaluation scheme(NO PUN INTENDED, and no reference to Scheme) 
<Tril> to run a program you pass it as argument to a function
<AlonzoTG> om
<Tril> each type of program may have a different evaluator (function which runs it)
<binEng> cool
<binEng> how do you define a type of program?
<Tril> well by type of program I mean differnet languages.  C would be one language, LISP another, Forth, etc.
<Tril> you define a type of program by writing a language :)
<binEng> ic
<binEng> asm too?
<Tril> yes, even asm will have its own evaluator function.
<binEng> but all prgs are asm?
<tcn> asm's evaluator is... an Assembler! And it produces executable machine code
<binEng> so programs are not compiled
<Tril> very good :)  Well, it's possible the evaluator for languages may then in turn use the evaluator for another language.
<tcn> some evaluators will produce machine code, others will be interpreters..
<AlonzoTG> I like Forth but I'm not going to limit myself to Forth. 
<tcn> same here
<AlonzoTG> The x86 was designed to be programmed in asm...
<Tril> of course he will consult me frequently
<AlonzoTG> I ordered the forth pogromer'z handbuk this morning, 
<AlonzoTG> :)))
<binEng> it was? how about the ENTER and LEAVE instructions?
<AlonzoTG> Those were added with the 186...
<AlonzoTG> :)
<tcn> those were an afterthought
<tcn> haha
<binEng> well don't say x86 then...
02:50pm
<tcn> Forth is handy as a user/programmer interface to an OS (or any program, really) when you don't have the time or resources to write something more complex
<AlonzoTG> Yes, I will almost certainly include a forth compiler with my OS distribution. 
<AlonzoTG> And burn it into the bios of any machine I build :)
<binEng> is Forth a good language?
<AlonzoTG> I don't know yet. 
<AlonzoTG> I haven't learned it. 
<AlonzoTG> :)
<Tril> Actually, for the compiler/interpreter thing.. I'm hoping that all evaluators will have the possibility for both.  Dynamically choosable by the user, or by the system based on what is best at the time
<binEng> but you said you liked it
<AlonzoTG> I have to 1 learn it. 2 program it. and 3 disassemble the output...
<binEng> lotsa work, eh?
<AlonzoTG> Not really 
<AlonzoTG> I hear that Forth has miniscule syntax 
<tcn> It does.
<AlonzoTG> :)
<tcn> I like it that way :)
<AlonzoTG> I saw some forth code in a brocure from www.forth.com, the code looks almost like english! :)
<AlonzoTG> With the right formatting the program could be the documentation!
<AlonzoTG> :P
<tcn> C: foo(2, 34, f(x));  LISP: (foo 2 34 (f x))  Forth: 2 34 x f foo
<Tril> Forth code that looks like english must be obfuscated. English isn't reverse polish
<AlonzoTG> Hmm, 
<tcn> Yeah, a typical Forth routine looks like this:   : FUNCTION_NAME ( input -- output , comments )  ... code... ;
<AlonzoTG> I'll read the manual and get back to you...
<Tril> tunes won't have fixed syntax, you'll be able to adapt it to the current situation. you cna use forth-like syntax, or lisp, or prolog,  etc as they are convenient
<tcn> All syntaxes are basically the same
<tcn> They all represent a syntax tree
<Tril> tunes will contain internall the abstract repreesntation of code, (like a syntax tree)
<Tril> you can program in the syntax tree directly. usually you should
<tcn> Beholder, you have a doc on visual programming.. that's programming in syntax trees
<Tril> but importing to and from the other langues is possible, depending on whether you used any constructs not supported in that lang
<tcn> Sometimes it's easier to use RPN or algerbraic or LISP expressions in the nodes of the syntax tree
<tcn> You should be able to mix up all the different syntaxes at whim
<tcn> And program using any interface.. text, voice, graphics..
<tcn> It's all about evaluating expressions
<binEng> mixing syntaxes?
<Tril> yeah, Fare had the same idea
<Tril> you may have read about it in the tunes pages
<binEng> no
<tcn> tril: which idea?
<Tril> mixing syntax.
<Tril> also, using any interface
<Tril> both are part of tunes
03:00pm
<tcn> If I'm not mistaken, Brian Rice's "Arrow system" is all about syntax trees
<binEng> you must use a syntax. If you mix syntaxes, that too is a syntax (if it works)
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<Tril> the trick for efficiency is that fully evaluated expressions ARE binary code.  And tunes uses partial evaluation.  The partially evaluated versions of any function can be cached and used again without recalculating the partial evaluation.
<tcn> So you just evaluate what's known at the time, and evaluate the rest as it becomes available?
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<AlonzoTG> Anybody here know PVM?
<binEng> hmm disconnected
<Tril> tcn: yes
<tcn> alonzo: heard of it
<Tril> when some arguments are known to a function, instead of waiting, it can re-generate code for a new function that depends on that particular value of that argument.
<Tril> never heard of it
<AlonzoTG> I am trying to help my team, that works on nanites, to link a large number of computers using PVM...
π AlonzoTG/#tunes ignites a flamethrower and eyes Beholder
<tcn> I'm interested in distributed computing.. that's becoming my main thing
<AlonzoTG> hmm, 
<AlonzoTG> Did you see the idea I posted on my website about how to fix the internet by having everything automatically mirroed all over the place?
<binEng> heh
<AlonzoTG> (Peer to peer distributed computing)
<tcn> yeah
<AlonzoTG> kommentz?
<binEng> haven't seen it...
<tcn> I've been thinking about that..
<tcn> It's tough.. uncharted waters..
<AlonzoTG> I will implement it over my OS when its done...
<Tril> AlonzoTG: it's a good idea, but I don't believe you are the only one who thought of it
<AlonzoTG> Hmm, 
<Tril> it's the next logical phase in computing
<AlonzoTG> i havn't yet seen any text on it anywhere...
<Tril> many systems already use it
<tcn> A big problem is addressing, when you have an Internet of subnets of LAN's and clusters and PC's and supercomputers and on and on and on..
<AlonzoTG> hmm, yes.
<AlonzoTG> I'll add it to the next revision, thanks! :)
<tcn> I think you've gotta abstract it at the higher levels, "divide and conquer"... 
<tcn> otherwise it'll become horribly inefficient
<Tril> AlonzoTG: you haven't looked too hard, then.
<Tril> Start at the TUNES review page :)
<AlonzoTG> okay. 
03:10pm
<tcn> Amoeba, Grasshopper, stuff like that, right?
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<binEng2> damn connection
<Tril> yah, Sprite, Erlang, and of course beowulf.  there's other BETTER projects for distributed networking, but I dont follow them, I will when tunes gets to that stage
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<tcn> I get the impression that all these distributed computing systems are research projects, that it's basically a new field
<Tril> yes, that's true
π AlonzoTG/#tunes has seen beowulf.
<AlonzoTG> and doesn't like it :|
<tcn> Yeah, existing parallel systems put extra responsibilities on the programmer
<tcn> It should be automatic
<tcn> I hope to create some heuristics by studying syntax trees and stuff.. but that's a long way off
<Tril> my idea for supporitng parallelism is to remove implicit serialization...  C for instance assumes all instructions are serial.. even if they don't need to be
<Tril> in tunes the programmer will be able to program starting by assuming everything is parallel..then putting "serial" dependencies between instructions that need to be
<Tril> that way parallelism is default
<tcn> If we're using purely functional programming, you don't need to tell the computer what's serial and what isn't.. it knows the dependencies
<Tril> I dont think so. LISP for instance, aren't functions a list of instructions, which are evaluated in order?
<Tril> there is no easy way to specify to evaluate two at the same time.
<Tril> in tunes, you just DON'T say to evaluate them in sequence, and it assumes to evaluate them at the same time.
<tcn> hmm.. it's all so obvious if you look at a syntax tree
<tcn> I guess LISP could screw that up with side-effects.. but then it's not purely functional
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03:20pm
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<tcn> In LISP programming, do programmers actually assume that statements are evaluated in order?
<Tril> I don't know lisp well
<smkl> probably depends on dialect
<tcn> neither do I :)
<tcn> I don't like it, anyway
<Tril> I think serial execution is assumed in every programming language
<Tril> because programming languages were designed to be efficient for the computer.
<tcn> Not in functional programming
<Tril> parallelism isn't efficient for a von neumann machine, thats why langauges were designed the way they are- they are for VN machines.
<binEng> Ideas of asm instructions that makes use of multiple CPUs easier?
<smkl> not in constraint programming etc. too
<Tril> smkl: is constraint programming like logic programming?
<tcn> Say, I've heard some good things about APL.. so I looked into it a little. There's a newer variant called J, which is purely functional.
<smkl> Tril: partly
<Tril> J is newer?  hmm...I thought J came first
<Tril> I woulnt know really
<smkl> apl is quite old, i guess
<tcn> Yeah, it was first thought up in the late 50's.
<Tril> tcn: what functional language are you talking about?  Are you referring to lazy evaluation, where the function can be evaluated before its argument?
<tcn> It wasn't implemented till about 1964
<tcn> Functional languages: lambda calculus and its descendants (LISP, Scheme, J, etc)....
<tcn> Functional = not sequential
<smkl> LISP and scheme are only partly functional. haskell is purely functional
<Tril> I don't think parallelism is a definition of functional
<tcn> Functional languages are good for parallelism because it's easier to parallelize them, since they don't allow serial dependencies
<Tril> I don't know, the little scheme I learned seems pretty serial!
<Tril> (define (x a) ((do-this) (do-that) (do-the-other)))  <- doesnt it execute this,that and the other in SEQUENCE?
03:30pm
<binEng> Tril, nice lang :)
<tcn> But if you had 3 processors, it would execute them simultaneously
<Tril> do you jsut think that, or do you have experience with the language?
<binEng> judging from your nice sample :)
<Tril> binEng: what do you mean ?
<binEng> forget it...
<abi> binEng: I forgot it
<tcn> haha
<binEng> eh
<Tril> binEng: oh, you already like Scheme, and that is the first time you saw it? :)
<Beholder> When you see somthing that is interesting, and approaches a problem in a very good way, then the best thing you can do is accept it :)
<smkl> tcn: could it? side effects?
<tcn> Dammit, I hate how these academics (Amoeba) do all their docs in Postscript
<Tril> I hate how everyone does their docs in A4 paper
<tcn> Haven't these people heard of ASCII? HTML? Anything that doesn't take forever to bring up?
<tcn> :(
π AlonzoTG/#tunes awaits beholder's comments :)
<tcn> smkl: side-effects are due to variables, right? If everything is passed by evaluation, not variables, it's purely functional and there are no side effects.
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<smkl> scheme is not purely functional. also scheme io is unpure
π Beholder/#tunes likes the docs of the project.
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<smkl> in Haskell, you could do what you want
<smkl> abi: haskell?
<abi> i guess haskell is lazy purely functional programming language at http://www.haskell.org/
<Beholder> Alonz:  I'd have to reboot to try the thing out, but the concepts are sound.
<Beholder> Alonz:  The DOCS have a bit :) more to go before done, but it's further then us at the moment :)
<smkl> abi: be AlonzoTG is <reply> om
<smkl> abi: be AlonzoTG
<abi> om
03:40pm
<hcf> heh
<tcn> Hey, in a syntax tree, what if an output branched off to more than one place..?
<tcn> Like in an electronic circuit..
<Beholder> Alonz: I don't know if I understand yet, but do you have an FS read/write implemented?
<Tril> tcn, what if?
<Tril> that would be teh equivalent of unix fork().
<Tril> if you mean thread of execution wen you say "output"
<tcn> Ah, forget it, I guess it'll work :)
<tcn> We're not really on the same wavelength..
<AlonzoTG> beholder: The os is just a skeletin at the moment, it doesn't work. 
<Tril> first of all, a syntax tree isn't a running program. It's only the source for a program.
<Tril> To run the syntax tree, you have to evaluate it (I would pass it to a function).
<AlonzoTG> Nothing is implemented at the moment, I just have a bunch of empty source files...
<AlonzoTG> :P
<Tril> of course, function application then is required
<tcn> Well, I'm gonna go eat dinner, then get back to my prototype..
<smkl> like : kewl_combinator f g x = (f x, g x) -- this would branch output from function
<AlonzoTG> :)
<AlonzoTG> I'm reeding your source. 
<Beholder> Alonz:  Then it is well done.  Very organized. :)
<AlonzoTG> It's good to see something implemented! :)
<tcn> yeah, I gotta read yours too
<AlonzoTG> This morning i added read.me files to it. 
<binEng> :)
<AlonzoTG> And reorgainized the directories to seperate out the platform independant stuff from the platform specific stuff more. :)
<tcn> see ya
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
03:50pm
<AlonzoTG> And seperated directories for AT and Alpha machines...
<AlonzoTG> If the prototype is ported...
<Beholder> Gotta go now, be back later tonight.  
<binEng> much later?
<Beholder> Unfortunaly... much later
<binEng> oh well
<Tril> I should go too
<Beholder> Probably around 9-10 PM -5:00 GMT
<AlonzoTG> om
<Beholder> Yep, the new pool table (not to mention foood) calls... :)
<binEng> then there's not much of a point in hanging around...
<smkl> yes there is
<binEng> oh?
<smkl> learn to idle
<binEng> not with my phone bill ticking :)
π Beholder/#tunes shifts down to park... idles... <low engine noises>
04:00pm
<smkl> phone is expensive at sweden?
<binEng> (female voice that fades out:) shutting down...
<binEng> quite
<binEng> maybe an dollar/hour
<smkl> it's only like $0.2 a call here
π Beholder/#tunes does not pay per min cuz he's in Canada...
π binEng/#tunes pushes Beholder out in the ocean... Now you're not in Canada any more!
<binEng> anyway...
<binEng> good night and have a nice life :)
ωνω SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
<hcf> who's left?
<smkl> left: No such nick/channel
<hcf> smartass
<smkl> i wonder why nobody has took that on EFNet too
<hcf> smkl: what efnet channels do u hang on?
<smkl> #E, #C, #ML
<smkl> and you?
<abi> you is probably probably a loser
<Tril> what is E
<smkl> enlightenement window manager
<hcf> smkl: #perl,#asm,#skism,and #infobot
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: http://www.ebicom.net/~vore/linuxchiq.jpg
04:10pm
<Tril> forget you
<hcf> Tril: i already did it
<hcf> and you?
<Tril> no gfx rite now, is that a spoof of the imac chick?
<hcf> what imac chick?
<Tril> some anime edited to imac colors, very funny. it was on slashdot a few months ago
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<smkl> hopefully that's not aeonflux
04:20pm
ωνω smkl has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: blah 
<AlonzoTG> goin to chat.datareturn.com #nanocomputer
ωνω SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
04:40pm
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<qlang> hmmm
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<qlang> not what I was expecting. :)
<qlang> I figured there'd be at least 10 ppl here
<hcf> ther was ~10 ppl here
<qlang> I'm curious what "dynamic code (re)generation" means in your explantion of TUNES?
<qlang> cool
<hcf> Fare: wake up
<qlang> Where did you say QZx hangs out?
<hcf> _qz hangs here
<qlang> oh
<qlang> Tell him q/Language says "HI!" :)
<qlang> He hates me! heehehe :)
<hcf> he'l probly be on soon
<hcf> he hates a lot of ppl
<hcf> its his nature
<qlang> We started our o/s projects about the same time and I finished mine last year.
<qlang> yup.
<qlang> He got real sick for a while I thought
<qlang> like cancer or something
<smkl> hcf: who's picture was that?
<hcf> smkl: i dont know, i just found the url
<qlang> was it that linuxchiq.jpg?
<qlang> She looked hot!
<hcf> too bad the penguin wasnt a tattoo and not on a shirt ;)
<qlang> One thing I would suggest you do in TUNES is:
<qlang> #1 Make sure your compiler/assembler produces .obj files
<smkl> i'm afraid shes's an extremely dangerous takeover cracker
<qlang> A lot of people tell you there's no reason to do it, but there really is!
05:00pm
<qlang> Another thing is modulize your compiler's code generation algorithms.
<qlang> Don't try to do it all with one algorithm or one module.
<qlang> That way you can add/modify each section of your code
<qlang> is anyone here?
<smkl> not really
<qlang> I'm either lagged or ignored. heheeh :)  Probably both. !
<qlang> hehehe :)
<qlang> Do any of you have TV cards in your PC?
<qlang> Well I'm going back to effnet.  Take care!
π hcf/#tunes is away 30/12/98 20:07:11 EDT :
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<smkl> would you think this is the same person as linuxchiq.jpg: http://www.uact.net/~aeonflux/aeonflux.jpg
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<smkl> <qlang> Tell him q/Language says "HI!" :)
05:10pm
<_QZ> hah
<_QZ> when was he here?
<smkl> he just was
<smkl> hey would you think these two are pictures of same person: http://www.uact.net/~aeonflux/aeonflux.jpg and http://www.ebicom.net/~vore/linuxchiq.jpg
<_QZ> uhm
<_QZ> might be
05:20pm
π _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( Auto-Away after 30 mins )
ωνω SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...)
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<default> anyone got an f serve
ωνω SignOff default: #TUNES (sucks)
06:50pm
π Fare/#Tunes is back (not for long)
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<AlonzoTG> om
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π Tril/#tunes is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 0 min 11 secs
<Fare> Tril: hello and goodbye!
<Tril> Bah
<Fare> Tril: so I'm no more coordinator :( what about my powergreed?
<Tril> uh, that's not allowed in the new world order
<AlonzoTG> om
ωνω SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<Fare> when I'm emperor of the world, I'll have you all impaled!
<Fare> oh, I shouldn't have told you. Now you won't let me become emperor. Too bad, I missed that job.
<Tril> you need to get yourself a MUD
<Tril> take your imagination out for a walk
<Tril> besides, my friend Toogam already told me he was going to be military dictator of the world, and I knew him first
08:20pm
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<Beholder> Hey Fare and Tril... not on for long, I'm sending out the mails to both projects
<Tril> ok
<Beholder> I'll show you the letter to Tunes before I send
<_QZ> show me the letter too
<_QZ> how do u open those one nuts that have white shells with a green nut inside. most of the shells come split open but some dont
<Tril> _QZ about this brix format email , when I write a program do I call other functions by a string in the description
<Tril> if I didn't specify a 128bit OID
<_QZ> u would say object.show()
<_QZ> to use the default show action
<_QZ> hold on let me pull out my notes on this
<Tril> when someone installs my program, i need the system to search for functions that do what need to be done, regardless of what name they are called
09:20pm
<Tril> i don't think brix can do that.
<Tril> that's ok next question
<_QZ> well im not gonna look for that syntax
<Beholder> QZ:  You need to break them... (the nuts, not the syntax :)
<_QZ> but u would either get a list of all show actions for that object and pick one
<Tril> what's all this about calling functions inside binaries? you don't, you call functions in source. binaries don't even have fuinction names in them. you'd hve to know the offset. impossible.  why dont u just distribute everything as source, that way you wouldn't have the problem of finding functions inside binasries.
<_QZ> or u can AND the list with another search
<Tril> Or you could do like Core and Alonzo, and have multiple entry point binaries (methods in objects).
<_QZ> like for the text object u could get the list and then do a search for 'html' and AND them together to get all text 'show's that do html
<_QZ> my old modules were the same thing
<_QZ> they held tons of actions inside one binary
<Tril> nevermind the names thing. ... I'm talking about a separate language for specifications than implementations, so I can call function by just saying what it does- but how it does it may be more detailed than just what it does
<_QZ> current programs do have functions in them
<_QZ> hidden from the outside unless they have command line options
<Tril> function=action right?
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> action=function
<Tril> (well, they don't, at all, but we're using them like they are)
<Tril> what?
<_QZ> ugh
<Tril> = is symmetric
<_QZ> do u know what a function is
<_QZ> its a piece of code that does something
<_QZ> current programs have tons of them in
<_QZ> in brix each of those functions is contained in an action and they are work together to make the program
<Tril> mathematical function is a mapping containing exactly one association from every element in the domain to one element in the codomain. The set of domain elements possible output of the function is called the range
<Tril> s/set of domain/set of codomain/
<_QZ> whatever
09:30pm
<Tril> what bout actions that don't have side effects
<Tril> they still have to be associated to an object?
<Tril> can u abstract message passing?
<_QZ> in what way
<Beholder> Is it ok if I post the mail now?
<_QZ> no, i havent seen it
<Beholder> I mean cut and paste it to this channel :)
<Tril> well, if a message is always sent 10 times in a row the system should create a new action that has a loop with the other action's code inlined in it (to eliminate overhead)
<Tril> if it's <23 lines you can
<Beholder> Ok
<Beholder> Hello Tunes Project,
<Beholder> I'd like to start by introducing myself.  I am the current project coordinator for the UniOS project (URL listed below), and now the new 
<Beholder> project coordinator for Tunes.  The founders of this project (Fare, and Tril) have found the need for somone to fill this postion, as the 
<Beholder> project has never had a real coordinator.
<Beholder> getting some web page professionals to asses the current page, and give feedback on what can be done.  This may be a little step, in solving 
<Beholder> some of the small problems Tunes, as a project, might have, but many agree it's a step in the right direction.  There will also now be a 
<Beholder> person, who you can talk to, who has a good chance of getting things, you think are not going well, or could be improved, changed.
<Beholder> I'm only here to help, and I know some of you have concerns for the project, so... lets hear em.
<Beholder> My job for the time being, is to hear what you think is wrong or right with Tunes, and how we can make it better.  As the coordinator, I 
<Beholder> have already started looking into changing/simplfying one aspect of the project: The web page.  The web page is the public face of the 
<Beholder> Tunes project.  The first thing anyone who stumbles upon the project will see, is probably www.tunes.org.  What I propose is a 
<Beholder> simplification of the layout and possibly the information presented.  This of course is a huge undertaking, but I have taken the liberty of 
<Beholder> One question you might ask is: Why would somone, who is the coordinator of another project want to help with Tunes?  The answer is 
<Beholder> complex, but it comes down to a sharing of ideas and people for both projects, and the fact that both projects have similar goals.  I have 
<Beholder> not, by far, given up on the UniOS project,  I believe this move makes the UniOS project stronger, as well as Tunes.
<Beholder> I can change anything you'd like
<Tril> some text did not paste correctly can you dcc me a copy?
<Beholder> Ok I will 
<Tril> did you send the UniOS one yet?
<Beholder> Yes I have
<Beholder> Want me to DCC you a copy of that one?
<Tril> no I found it in my incoming unios folder :)
<Beholder> :)
<Tril> ALL UNIOS MEMBERS READ THIS NOW!!!!!
<Tril> hehe
<Beholder> Thats right :)
<Beholder> QZ: What do you think of it?
<_QZ> uhh
<Beholder> QZ: Ok don't think then... just half-life.... 
<Beholder> :)
<_QZ> im at the end
<_QZ> :)
<_QZ> well sorta
<_QZ> im half way thru the second to last level
<_QZ> u teleport to another dimension for the last 4 levels
<Tril> don't send it, fix it to not say I'm a founder
<Beholder> Ok... Fare would not like that?
<Tril> i dont think so he's been around much longer
<Beholder> How about "the people resonsible for this project"
<Tril> In fact I haven't even read all the e-mail archives from before I joined...
<Tril> well, maybe I did. But if so, I forget
<Tril> caretakers would be more accurate
09:40pm
<Beholder> ... that sounds kinda like blame :)  yes caretakers sounds better
<Beholder> What about the rest of it?  Weak, too stong?  Lame?
<Beholder> You still there Tril?  I gotta go soon :(
<Tril> well, read msg00032.html in this month sometime
<Tril> I manged to get some feedback from someone on the topic that you are asking in your mail
<Tril> read it and we will discuss it (maybe later)
<Beholder> Which topic?
<Beholder> Should I send the mail?
<Tril> asking people if they have concerns
<Beholder> Ok, I'll take a look at it sometime
<Tril> sure, np.  
<Tril> I'll prob. have to take the role of pointing you to posts in the list archives, since yo wouldnt know which ones to read.
<Beholder> I gotta go now, gotta get up early tomorrow :(   See ya later
ωνω Beholder [beholder@ppp-175.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has left #tunes []
<_QZ> In short, what the open-source movement is all about is passion, invention, and innovation. And hey, if you can make a buck at the same time, that's cool too.
09:50pm
<_QZ> OUCH
<_QZ> 2 teens in california cant use computers for 3 years
<_QZ> that wouldsuck
<Tril> do they ever sentence financial criminals to stay away from money?
<_QZ> haha
<_QZ> good damn point
<_QZ> these two broke into gov and mil systems
<Tril> why would there be anything interesting there?
<_QZ> hahaha
<_QZ> have u heard of ibm's new quad-sxga lcd panels?
<Tril> I don't know what that is
<_QZ> 2560x2048 16.3" screen
<_QZ> full color
<_QZ> less than 20 pounds
<_QZ> im not sure i would want a notebook that weighed "less than 20 pounds"
10:00pm
<Tril> ha
10:10pm
<Tril> later qz
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (ωνω Total uptime :   6938d 11h  4m 20s)
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<tcn> Anybody awake?
<tcn> Why does everyone always leave right before I sign on?
<tcn> :)
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
10:30pm
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ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)