IRC log started Sun Jan  3 00:00:00 1999
<lar1> "Hamature radio"
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0103
<tcn> Hey, have you seen that 10 megabit microwave link in the ARRL handbook?
<lar1> Hmm, I haven't read that yet.
<tcn> Just think, back in 1989 you could get T1 speeds for the price of a modem.
<lar1> I have the 1999 book... is it in there?
<Lagger> tcn, What? Why'd it go up?
<tcn> probably.. look under Microwave or Digital..
<lar1> Ok
<tcn> lagger: Microwave (10 GHz) allows for high bandwidth..
<tcn> lagger: Lots more than a phone line.. and simpler in many ways.. therefore, cheap.
<tcn> There's this idea (look at www.l0pht.com under Guerrillanet) to set up a giant wireless network..
<Lagger> Whats the range on Microwave?
<Lagger> and what kind of hardware is needed?
<tcn> 30-50 miles. Uses a Gunn diode (like a radar detector), an FSK chip, a few other minor parts, oh yeah, a dish, and a way to interface it with your computer.
<tcn> USB might be a good interface...
12:10am
<tcn> l0pht was having trouble interfacing it with ethernet.. too complicated.
<lar1> Hmmm... mom badger me to go to bed... see you all marro.
<tcn> later
<tcn> I'm outta here too, it's now after 3
ωνω SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
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12:20am
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<smkl> can somebody remove duplicated addresses from mailing lists?
06:50am
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<binEng> greets
ωνω SignOff binEng: #TUNES (If nobody is here, neither am I.)
09:10am
ωνω lar1 [larman@1Cust68.tnt31.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
<smkl> hello lar1
<lar1> Hi
11:30am
<lar1> How is programming for Linux different than programming for DOS?
11:40am
ωνω SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω lar1 [lar1@1Cust95.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hi all!  I am on my LINUX box now :)
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12:10pm
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ωνω SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup45-2-34.swipnet.se])
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π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 15 hrs 8 min 53 secs
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<binEng> Tril.
<Tril> ?
<binEng> If UniOS and Tunes were to merge, what ideas would survive?
<Tril> hmm, 
<Tril> do you want a OS that is able to survive change, and is adaptable to almost any need, and can be compatible with any other system you name?
<binEng> well I don't know about compability... that's not a primary concern.
01:10pm
<binEng> I agree on the other two points.
<Tril> tunes already has differing ideas within it, how can uniOS be that much different?
<binEng> it seems to me that UniOS is somewhat more unified, but we've not been going for as long time as Tunes.
<Tril> yep that's what i think too
<binEng> Is there any OS model being worked on in Tunes? So far I've only seen goals.
<Tril> I don't think the ideas have any problem being combined, but the question is whether people want to have two separate projects
<Tril> Yes I'm working on the OS model
<Tril> much of what is done on TUNES is not seen.
<Tril> that's one reason why I need Pat to help
<binEng> ic
<binEng> Is compability a strong priority for Tunes?
<Tril> no. it's like you said , low priority. but if everything else is there, compatibility will be easy to add, as a side effect.
<binEng> And what would that 'everything else' be? The ideas currently being discussed?
<Tril> if there is a new system, that is secure, stable, easy to use, fast, etc. I think people will add compatibility to it.
01:20pm
<binEng> "User-level compability" would be fine. What I object against is to take compability in account when designing the OS or implementing general-purpose systems.
<Tril> the thing is with reflection the compatibility can be added in later, (integrated), as a first-class feature.
<Tril> all features are added as first-class features
<Tril> unlike current systems , where features must be either tacked on (layered) or the system rewritten
<binEng> ...as in mOS, I fancy.
<binEng> Hmm, speaking about mOS, you once mentioned you would post your opinions on it or something... (?)
<Tril> yeah, I haven't got around to that yet. I heard you were working on an updated version?
<binEng> An updated version? Well, not more than what I posted to the UniOS site.
01:30pm
<Tril> ok I'm reading it now
<Tril> Everything in the system is an object. Also many objects that are usually implemented as compile-time objects or external files should be made as system objects, giving other objects, including authorized users, the ability to modify it's value independent of the parent application itself
<Tril> "many objects...should be made as system objects"?  Why not ALL objects?
<binEng> because the system would not benefit from knowing all objects... objects *inside* applications.
ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> I assume you can nest that feature (hiding of objects inside other objects)
<Tril> i.e. embedding applications in applications?
<binEng> well... what kind of objects are you meaning? compile-time or system objects?
<Tril> ok, maybe I will read through this before asking any more questions.
<Tril> hcf: http://members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html is what I am reading, btw
<binEng> yes, it pretty much depends on all parts.
<hcf> Tril: thx for clueing me in
<binEng> BTW, how should I post mails to the Tunes list? If I just choose "reply", I reply only to the person who wrote the other mail. If I choose "reply to all", I reply to both tunes and the other person. So far I've manually typed in tunes in cc.
01:40pm
<Tril> yes, reply to all is the standard way of dealing with mailing lists.  Actually, I reply to all, then remove the sender's name from the To because that way they don't get two copies.
<Tril> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html - explains why having the list set a Reply-To: header on every post is bad
<hcf> Tril: is tunes-all gonna happen?
<Tril> and why asking users to use reply-to-all is good
<binEng> tnx
<Tril> hcf: I think, if I figure out how to do it
<binEng> Tril: Excuses if I've been sending you double copies of my posts...
<Tril> that is ok ... my D key will hold up
<binEng> :)
01:50pm
<binEng> Do I send two copies when I choose reply to all?
<Tril> yeah
<Tril> but everybody's used to it, i think
<binEng> well not me
<Tril> we should change the list to a news group then it would solve that problem
<hcf> alt.os.tunes?
<Tril> tunes.*  (private news server)
<hcf> oic
<Tril> they would be gatewayed to the mailing lists
<binEng> Both a newsgroup/server AND a list is a poor choice
<Tril> qz suggested it.  actually mozilla is using private newsgroups now.
<Tril> wlel, it's so people who dont have access to a news reader can still read the list
<binEng> I like my mail program better than my news reader.
<Tril> why is it a ppor choice
02:00pm
<binEng> hmm
<binEng> Can't remember :)
<Tril> what do you mean in the Interfaces section when you say "may or many not be used for specific purposes from the start"?
<binEng> My thoughts were so interrupted by your argument so I forgot it...
<binEng> I got to read it in it's context
<Tril> do you need me to paste it?
<binEng> no, I know now
<binEng> I meant that either an interface is supported, or it's not.
<Tril> uh-oh, I just checked my e-mail and I have 57 messages.
<Tril> I hope most of them are errors or something.
<binEng> I've been downloading emails all day :)
<binEng> Simply put: Interfaces are static constructions.
<Tril> how is adding an interface different from inheritance?
<binEng> hmm
<binEng> Δctually not as easy distinction as I thought when I wrote that doc. However,
<binEng> heh
<binEng> give me some time to think about this
<Tril> maybe this will help: you said interfaces never change. does this mean you can't add them? 
<Tril> and therefore you don't have anything like inheritance?
02:10pm
<binEng> implementations of the same method are not "stacked" on each other in interfaces. For one object type, there is one implementation of an interface.
<binEng> Interfaces can be seen as creating object types with multiple inheritance from pure virtual base classes.
<binEng> But! you don't create child-classes of those classes.
<Tril> that's the same as an abstract class, I think?
<Tril> dont woryr about the terminiolgoy.. neverymind that question
<binEng> Pure virtual would be without any implementation at all.
<binEng> Maybe I should change that... the difference is really not that big...
<binEng> brb
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www2.tunes..org>. current topic: http://members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html
<Tril> www2.....tunes........org
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www2.tunes.org>. current topic: http://members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html
<hcf> hows that?
<Tril> any apps let you click on embedded urls in IRC to open them?
<Tril> s/apps/irc clients/ 
<hcf> some do, afaik
<hcf> irc plugins likely do
<hcf> mirc can if set to
02:20pm
<binEng> back
<binEng> I just got an idea. What if I create a filter for outgoing mails, that removes any other addresses on tunes' post?
<Tril> you mean it checks for addresses that are on the list, and removes them
<binEng> well, no. It would check if I send to Tunes. If i do, it sets the to field to tunes.
<Tril> I dont know, isn't it useful to have the main person who the mail is written for, on the message? For instance, my mailer (pine) puts a + mark to the left of any message with my address in the header. And it makes it clear to everyone who it is for.
<Tril> oh, well, you can set whatever filters you want. I thought you were volunteering to write one to be insalled on the list.
<binEng> k
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www2.tunes.org>. current topics: tunes' mailing lists, http://members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html
<binEng> Great, a secretary that registers all subjects discussed! :)
<Tril> hcf: now you gotta get abi to do that (understand what we're talking about :)
<Tril> hcf: wanna go back thru the old logs and write summaries of the results of discussion?
<Tril> the mailing list would be more useful...
<Tril> we need somebody to do that...
<smkl> let's send all the IRC logs to mailing lists!
<binEng> great!
<binEng> and to all other mailing lists we can think of, just to be sure.
<Tril> well, we could set up a mailing list for irc logs, if someone didn't want to FTP the new one every day
<hcf> i prefer ftp'ing them
π hcf/#tunes wishes beholder was here
<Tril> another Q about the mos ..  I don't get OH's.  Are they just implementations of an object type?  Instances?  What is an 'object' if the OH does all the work?
<binEng> what, there are ppl that actually read the logs? (hi there everybody! :) )
<hcf> this is an extension of the up to date member activity/status web stuff
<smkl> somebody from pakistan is trying to crack me
<hcf> irc discussion status should hav a web page
<hcf> w/ agenda etc for the topic(s) being discussed
<binEng> OH's are implementations of interfaces for specific object types. You've gotten to the point... objects are just a note that they exist.
<Tril> basile downloaded the log yesterday :)
02:30pm
<binEng> How about more formal meetings, with agenda and stuff?
π binEng/#Tunes is away
<Tril> well, I think we need Beholder to decide when he is going to be here
<Tril> ok, sure, list of topics to discuss on irc sounds good
<Tril> and picking times.. 
<hcf> scheduled irc'ing would likely be a "good thing (tm)"
<hcf> especially w/ ultima
π binEng/#Tunes is back
<Tril> binEng: That wasn't long enouigh to count for away :)
<binEng> heh, not?
<hcf> binEng: that was a "brb"
<binEng> just how away is away?
<Tril> i usually don't answer that fast ! :)
<binEng> :)
<binEng> k, I'll remember that for next time
<Tril> hmm, I can't seem to find any logs of hcf downloading IRC logs. I guess he used a ftp client locally and upped to a remote. :)
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www2.tunes.org>. current topics: tunes' mailing lists, binEng's mos <URL:http://members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html>
<hcf> Tril: i use a variety of ways
<hcf> including dcc'ing
<Tril> get abi to dcc it to ya :)  it's on her filesystem..
<Tril> in fact she can offer 'em publically i bet
<hcf> abi doesnt currently any dcc stuff
<Tril> (not that i think we need it)
<Tril> an fserve bot is not high on the list of priorities..
<binEng> what's the big deal with irc logs anyway...
<hcf> Tril: thats cos new features for #tunes isnt high on the list 
<Tril> hcf: what does that have to do with it. are you implying there's really nothing on the list (true)?
<hcf> i just want more #tunes things (features, ppl, etc)
<hcf> for one reason: to play w/ while everyone else is idling
<Tril> oh, oops, I misread you. I thought you meant new features for TUNES.
<binEng> you've got nothing but to be on the 'net to do, eh?
<hcf> also, for #tunes to better serve us (like the irc discussion/agenda etc thing)
ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
02:40pm
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www2.tunes.org>. current topics: #tunes' features and lack there of, tunes' mailing lists, binEng's mos <URL:http://members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html>
<binEng> this topic line is getting long
<hcf> binEng: wouldnt be to be long if we had a proper web page for #tunes
<hcf> s/be/have/
<binEng> :)
<binEng> but it's not that bad idea, really...
ωνω smkl has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www2.tunes.org>. current topics: #tunes' features and lack there of, tunes' mailing lists, binEng's mos <URL:http://members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html>, length of #tunes topic
<_QZ> heh
<binEng> maybe a list of topic changes and when they were done
<hcf> binEng: TUNES (tril's logger) ~has that
ωνω Nater1464 [nate@ppp047.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #TUNES
<hcf> hoy Nater1464
<Nater1464> hi
<abi> hi, Nater1464
<binEng> so, where is the topics displayed, then?
<Nater1464> hi
<hcf> binEng: in the logs
<binEng> in the logs, in the logs... I don't look in the logs
<Nater1464> gonna go........bbl 
ωνω SignOff Nater1464: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Tril> <binEng> OH's are implementations of interfaces for specific object types.
<Tril>           You've gotten to the point... objects are just a note that they
<Tril>           exist.
<Tril> OK so  why is there a distinction?
02:50pm
<smkl> OH ?
<Tril> smkl (read mos document, it's an Object Handler).
<binEng> a distinction between what?
<Tril> an object, and an object handler.
<Tril> why not just call it the object?
<binEng> Oh's *are* objects.
<Tril> BTW, I just started  a TUNES TODO list at http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?TODO  .. please add to it.
<Tril> then what object is the OH handling?
<Tril> itself, right?
<binEng> no... certain interfaces for certain object types.
<Tril> what interfaces does an OH have ?
<hcf> _QZ: u here?
<abi> u betcha, hcf
<hcf> shutup abi
<binEng> good question. This is not worked out, but some kind of special OH interface. Handled by the "super OH".
<Tril> u here?
<abi> u betcha, Tril
<Tril> is this channel dead?
<Tril> abi, is this channel dead?
π binEng/#Tunes isn't dead
<Tril> abi, #TUNES?
<abi> bugger all, i dunno, tril
<_QZ> hcf: ya
<Tril> abi, #TUNES is right where you are now
<abi> tril: i haven't a clue
<hcf> thers a guy who's switching win9x to linux on 120 internet kiosk machines (Pentium200s thru PentiumII 333s). this is happening in the Salt Lake City,
<hcf> Utah library. This is the pilot program. if this works, then works 20 library branches with about 2000 machines will be moving from Win9x to Linux.
<Tril> why does abi refuse to learn from me
<Tril> I used 'is' and 'are' in teh same sentence?
<smkl> abi:  #TUNES is right \where you are now
<smkl> abi: #tunes?
<abi> #tunes is probably right where i am now
<hcf> smkl: not it
<hcf> it changes you to abi and i
<_QZ> hcf: and?
03:00pm
<hcf> _QZ: thot ud like to know
<Tril> hcf: I like it
<smkl> well, it's good enough now
<_QZ> ah
<hcf> _QZ: u live near salt lake rite?
<_QZ> i live in salt lake
<hcf> in the lake?
<hcf> ;)
<_QZ> no the lake is called great salt lake
<hcf> oh
<Tril> we flew over that on the way back from florida
<hcf> Tril: number the todo list items
<hcf> Tril: in the 1st item, didnt u mean s/mailing list archives/irc log archives/ ?
<hcf> u can combine items 2 and 3
<hcf> Tril: shall make these changes?
<hcf> s/shall/shall i/
<binEng> No hint about *who* should do those things?
<hcf> binEng: our community
<binEng> did anyone see my version of the literature suggestion?
<Tril> binEng: Where would they have seen it? Wiki? Mlist? channel?
<binEng> the mailing list
<Tril> hcf: the 1st item is mlist archives .. do you think the irc channel should be summarized too? wanna do it?
<hcf> i dont wanna do it, i just thot u mentioned it
<Tril> did you post it after I downloaded my mail a few minutes ago?
<binEng> don't we already have a mlist archieve
03:10pm
<binEng> tril, no
<Tril> binEng: Yeah. The suggestion was to have someone READ the archive and summarize the discussions. For each thread, what was the topic, and what were the main points brought up?
<binEng> time to revise the topic line, isn't it? ;)
<hcf> binEng: yep
<Tril> binEng:  what post of yours are you referring to? what is the message-ID?
<hcf> Tril: hmm, cant make a new file via wiki?
<binEng> the Re: Request (Humble) one
<binEng> Tril, possible, but not the best ratio of documentation vs. work
<Tril> ah I didn't get to it yet . i see it though. 
<Tril> Ratio?  The result may be condensed but it will be very valuable.
<binEng> maybe... not valuable enough for me to see it necessary.
ωνω Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES <www2.tunes.org>, topics: Mailing lists, UniOS, mOS <members.xoom.com/unios/mos_abstract.html>, TODO <www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?TODO>, channel features, the topic
<hcf> Tril: how about a http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?#tunes_topics
<binEng> good idea, things to discuss on irc
<Tril> it needs to have at least 2 capital letters in it. I dunno if # is allowed or not
<smkl> try IRC_topics then
<Tril> someone else make it
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www2.tunes.org>. topics <URL:http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?IRC_topics>
<binEng> There goes mOS... formally end of discussion.
03:20pm
<hcf> binEng: it'l be on the IRC_topics page
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:http://www2.tunes.org>. topics <URL:http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?IRC_topics>
π hcf/#tunes figures the http:// is more url grabber friedly
<Tril> TunesWiki Can't Process Your Request
<Tril> edit: improper name: IRC_topics
<Tril> try no _
<hcf> IRC-topics
<Tril> nope
<hcf> topics.IRC?
<Tril> Sorry.
<binEng> what's the problem?
<hcf> IrcTopics?
<Tril> that would work
<Tril> so would IRCTopics, though
<Tril> binEng: Wiki is Piki
<Tril> why not just put it on TunesWiki?IRC
<hcf> Tril: thats good, make it so
ωνω Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?IRC - all you ever needed to know about this channel's topic
03:30pm
π _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( Auto-Away after 30 mins )
<binEng> I have a topic suggestion: Future shape of Tunes
<Tril> project or system?
<binEng> project.
<binEng> how's that? when now this UniOS affair is happening
<Tril> what do UniOS members want? I think they should really wait for Pieter to get back
<binEng> are you asking me?
<binEng> and why did the UniOS topic disappear from the list?
<Tril> that wasn't a question, just my opinion :)
<Tril> I forgot?  go add it, it's a dynamic page ! :)
<binEng> no, it was there, but it disappeared.
<binEng> maybe something I did
<binEng> now it's back :)
<Tril> no, it's not.... hold on, i'll fix
<hcf> Tril: wiki is adding my text, but not the newlines
<binEng> "what do UniOS members want?" <-- Asking me or suggestiong topic?
<Tril> you guys really mesed it up!  6 totally luser revisions!
<hcf> we suck
<Tril> hcf: New lines? You need to put a blank line, or there will be no newlines.
<Tril> blank line = <P>
<binEng> Tril, it's a tricky beast :)
<hcf> <P> works but <BR> doesnt, thats lame
<Tril> hcf: you can't put HTML tags in wiki, AT ALL!!
<Tril> Read http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TextFormattingRules
<Tril> it has a completely different (and luser) text formatting system.
03:40pm
<_QZ> http://www.phobe.com/furby/index.html
<Tril> is anyone trying to fix the IRC Wiki page??
<Tril> binEng: I'm ignoring your statement: The word that comes to my mind is "vague". And maybe "unrealistic", or
<Tril> "without contact with reality".
<binEng> Tril: not me
<Tril> You said you 'understood reflection', didn't you?  that was the point of the post..
<Tril> not to be realistic.
<binEng> heh :)
<binEng> nah, why be realistic?
<binEng> that's just boring.
<binEng> However... feel free to ignore any statement.
<binEng> That's the way politicians do it.
<binEng> And it works for them, doesn't it? ;)
<Tril> _QZ: that link was in my local newspaper a few weeks ago.
<Tril> hcf: what are you doing
<hcf> Tril: why do u ask?
<hcf> ;)
<Tril> I thought u were trying to modify the topic page
<hcf> wiki doesnt suit me
<Tril> wiki must adapt
03:50pm
<binEng> I'll add something to the topic page.
<binEng> there u are!
<Tril> ah,, someone finally got it right
<Tril> didn't messs up the page
<Tril> :)
<binEng> But it was hard ;)
<hcf> damn, my l-alt key broke
<binEng> broke??
<hcf> isnt functioning perl usual
<Tril> binEng: not future direction of the unios project?
<hcf> s/perl/per/
<binEng> well, that too
<binEng> but as I understand it, Tunes is the project to change most in the near future.
<Tril> i hope
<binEng> Is a simple site a must for you guys? Frames are not acceptable, or? How about some colors? And a background image?
<Tril> uhh..  Fare wants a musical score as teh background image.
04:00pm
<binEng> :)
<Tril> he wants it to change from time to time, to different compositions
<binEng> Something is needed to ease reading on it.
<binEng> I don't think musical scores would solve that
<Tril> if there are frames, there should be a non-frames version that is exactly the same (both would be generated from the same source)
<binEng> yes. Frames are not necessary. Some colors are.
<Tril> no, i was just answering about the background image.  now i answered about frames.   a simple site? there should be pages for differnet kinds of readers, new to tunes, learning tunes, and members/familiar with tunes.
<Tril> colors are ok I think, but maybe several differnet schemes to choose from?
ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (bbiab)
<Tril> fare says "if the user wants color, why don't they specify it in their browser"?
<Tril> s/"?/?"/
<binEng> different color schemes are not necessary... if you don't come up with a way to update all versions at the same time.
<binEng> he says?
<Tril> we already HAVE a way to update different versions. there's just one version, so nothing happens.
<Tril> i was informing you of his opinion, because he is not here :)
<Tril> these pages have been discussed. so we dont have to start over
<binEng> ok :)
04:10pm
ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> do we need a -specs list?
<Tril> I'll disable it 
<binEng> whatever
<Tril> do we need a voting mechanism?
<binEng> I'd advice you to avoid votes if possible.
<Tril> what kind of issues were you thinking of would be voted for?
<Tril> (that you would not want to be voted for)
<hcf> Tril: i wanna do a non-wiki IRC-topics page, where do i start?
<Tril> hcf: do you have a checked-out copy of the cvs tree under your home directory?
<binEng> Tril, well it wasn't me that mentioned votes
<hcf> Tril: no
<Tril> i know. but i had no specific issues in mind, either
<Tril> cvs co tunes
<Tril> cd tunes/src
<hcf> cvs checkout: Sorry, you don't have read/write access to the history file
<hcf> cvs [checkout aborted]: /usr/local/lib/cvs/rep1/CVSROOT/history: Permission denied
<Tril> newgrp tunes
ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250128.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> hcf: try again w/o newgrp
<hcf> hoy tcn
<Tril> i added u to the group
<tcn> hello
<Tril> hcf:what will be on this irc topics page? will it be a general page about the channel (i.e move the paragraph from collaboration.html, replace it with a link)?
<binEng> hi
<abi> bonjour, binEng
04:20pm
<tcn> mange merde, abi
<tcn> y muerte'
<hcf> Tril: just irc topics related, keep the paragraph on the coll page
<Tril> did checkout work
<hcf> Tril: i do 'cvs co tunes', it does the same errors
<Tril> what is the output of "groups"?
<tcn> Oh yeah, hcf, I had trouble with this too..
<binEng> c'ya
<Tril> if tunes ain't in there, logout and back in again
<Tril> if it is, run newgrp tunes and try cvs again
<binEng> bye
<Tril> later!
ωνω SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
<hcf> Tril: it werked i think
<hcf> spewed poop like "U tunes/src/papers/WhyNewOS/Introduction.phtml"
<tcn> yup
<hcf> hmm
<Tril> cd tunes/src,  create irc-topics.phtml 
<hcf> Tril: i need faster update time than midnight
<Tril> do you want to be able to manually update it, or just an auto-update that is faster for that page?
<hcf> manually
<Tril> you will need to run 'cvs add irc-topics.phtml'  at some point before committing. then when the page is ready (and anytime you change it)  run:
<Tril> cvs ci -m"description of change" irc-topics.phtml
<tcn> I'm reading my mail... too... many.. messages!!
<Tril> (or the file name you choose)
<Tril> tcn: agreed.
04:30pm
<tcn> Well, back to coding.. later all
<Tril> :)
<Tril> hmm, hcf, the add command has a -m option too i think (-m prevents having to use an editor [default vi] to type your description)
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
04:40pm
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: http://www2.tunes.org/~nef/irc-topics.html
<hcf> Tril: whatcha think?
<Tril> hmm, Well, I like the snaz one
<Tril> I don't see why you get to pick the IRC topics, tough :)
<Tril> s/tough/though/
<Tril> Iliked wiki because anyone could change the topic
<Tril> (notice i have -t on the channel)
<hcf> il be a human wiki
<smkl> topic for next six months: the arrow language, curry-howard isomorphism, and category theory
<hcf> Tril: im not saying lets do this way for the long term, this is just a kludge
<Tril> curry-howard isomorphism is what, the turing-completeness of lambda calculus?
<hcf> also, its more than we had yesterday
<smkl> no. read http://www.diku.dk/users/rambo/curry-howard.ps
<Tril> how many pages
<smkl> 200
<Tril> not now :)
<Tril> hcf: if you don't mind, what was wrong with the wiki?
<hcf> i dont like new text formatting rules
<smkl> like you have a function with type "(A -> B) -> (C -> A) -> C -> B". this type is true sentence in logic
04:50pm
<Tril> smkl: is that a function that inputs a function that inputs a function that outputs a function that outputs a function that outputs a function?
<smkl> it is a function that input a function and outputs a function that inputs a function and outputs a function
<Tril> oh ok
<smkl> like "compose f g x = f (g x)"
<Tril> right to left precedence on  ->, I guess
<hcf> Tril: how about this:
<hcf> irc-topics.html will svr-side included tunes/irc/*.topics
<Tril> does apache have that?
<Tril> i don't know how to load apache modules
<hcf> yes
π hcf/#tunes knows enuf SSI to do it
<Tril> CGI to submit *.topics?
<hcf> yep
<hcf> perhaps, even make .topic files via an irc 'face ;)
<hcf> abi: mktopic snaz blah blah ...
05:00pm
<hcf> Tril: ur opinion?
<Tril> if that's the contribution you wnat to make to the tunes project, by all means do it!!!
<hcf> will u use it and encourage others to use it?
<Tril> ah
<Tril> how will topics be removed?
<_QZ> how was it u do javascript alert boxes?
<Tril> what about picking the order?
<hcf> via cgi, shell/etc based rm'ing, and abi: rmtopic
<hcf> i havnt thot about order yet
<Tril> if it's easier than wiki sounds good
<hcf> a more sophisticated version of this will/would hav subtopics
<Tril> hcf: sounds like you are getting to be the tunes irc channel project coordinator :)
<hcf> yep
<hcf> i knew it would come to that
<Tril> anyone else wants to list their position put it on TunesWiki?ProjectMembers
05:10pm
<Tril> or create a new page for member positions instead because wiki sucks :)
<hcf> i didnt say wiki sucks
<hcf> just that it doesnt suit me
<Tril> I did
<hcf> also, cvs doesnt suit me
<Tril> wish fare would go around saying stuff doesn't suit him :)
<Tril> hcf: wanna install mozilla tools?? please? 
<hcf> pour qua?
<hcf> (thats probly bad french)
<hcf> supposed to be, 'for what', is it right?
<Tril> Bonsai (http://www.mozilla.org/bonsai.html): web-based tool for watching up to the minute goings on in the cvs repository (A great search engine for CVS changes...)
<hcf> yeah, seen the page, referred u to it b4
<smkl> my position is: learning how to kill people so i can become TUNES project assassin
<Tril> hcf: try to subscribe to tunes-all (via email)
<Tril> i ask you because you saied to add you to all the lists
<hcf> whats -all include?
<Tril> if u dont want to I will test it myself
<hcf> brb
<Tril> hcf: nothing yet, right now its just an empty mlist with no archive, no members, and no posting address :)
<Tril> wait
05:20pm
<hcf> what /will/ -all include?
<hcf> btw, i never said make a -all
<Tril> tunes,tunes-announce,review,tunes-lll
<Tril> (tunes-specs, if we keep it)
<hcf> i just review,tunes,tunes-*, and os-* for now
<hcf> s/just/just want/
<hcf> s/want/want to be subscribed to/
<Tril> os-* aren't tunes lists, so sohouldn't be in tunes-all
<hcf> Tril: i realize this
<Tril> Ya OK I'll sub ya :)
<hcf> i dont want cyber*,moose,lisp*
<hcf> does this leave any others?
<Tril> ultra, unios
<hcf> those rnt hosted by bespin rite?
<Tril> unios is.. ultra and lisp* arne't
<Tril> unios is moving their list here, whether they merge w/ tunes or not
<Tril> (we have a better archive)
<hcf> will the lists merge?
<Tril> well, that, maybe eventually.
<hcf> s/merge/merge anytime soon/
<Tril> ask beholder:)
<hcf> Tril: theyre shouldnt be a need to ask
<hcf> s/theyre/there/
<Tril> I think you just got a welcome to tunes-all notice.
05:30pm
<hcf> why am i getting biff'd when its set to n?
<Tril> newgrp creates a subshell with new gid... yer parent shell is biff y :)
<Tril> put it in .bashrc and .profile
<Tril> (biff n, that is)
<hcf> it is
<hcf> all is fine now
ωνω SignOff smkl: #TUNES (military service ...)
05:40pm
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:http://www2.tunes.org>
<hcf> Tril: u here?
<abi> u betcha, hcf
<Tril> yeah, what she said
<hcf> afaik, noone else has stepped up to help ultima w/ review links
<hcf> s/else/else but me/
<hcf> but, il likely not get to them in a while
<Tril> tcn?
<Tril> i thought u were both doing it
<hcf> i dont recall
π hcf/#tunes *screams* "we need a member/subproject/activity/status thing!"
<Tril> yup
π Tril/#TUNES hands hcf a magnophone to help
<hcf> whats more laudness unto seemingly deaf ears?
<Tril> argh. I hate these undeliverable message errors that don't say what address can't be delivered to!
<Tril> oh well, unsubscribe everybody at that host..
<hcf> btw, as irc coordinator etc, if i do/make/etc things the ppl ask for and nobody uses those things, i'l be very pist
05:50pm
<Tril> what has ppl asked 4?
<hcf> hypothetically
<hcf> back when skism was active, they asked for shit, i did it, they never used it
<hcf> and never said why
<hcf> Tril: do u WANT the irc topics thing i described?
<Tril> I like binEng's idea of scheduled discussions better
<Tril> does your topics include that?
<hcf> how would scheduled discussions effect the irc-topics thing?
<Tril> irc topics are items to be discussed on IRC , and times are assigned to them for when they will be discussed
<hcf> thats more like a plain agenda
<Tril> well, i think the minute-to-minute topic of IRC doesn't need to eb tracked, and it would be too much trouble to do so, because the topic changes all the time anyway
<Tril> are you thinking it would be used to remember what the topics are, nad keep discussing them until they are finished?
<Tril> some conclusion is reached?
<hcf> yeah
<Tril> see that's pretty much teh same as an agenda...?
<hcf> yeah, ok
<Tril> short term agenda, but still..
<Tril> maybe we can make one page that is both
<Tril> short-term and long-term agenda items
06:00pm
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<hcf> hmm
<hcf> brb (not end of discussion)
<Tril> hcf: I need the 'vrfy' utility.
<hcf> switch to debian ;)
<Tril> hcf: welcome to tunes, tunes-announce, and review :)  (sorry about the msgs)
<Tril> i'm just testing the tunes-all thing
<hcf> no need to be sorry about mishaps during testing
<Tril> no, I did it on purpose. sorry if it bothered you.
<hcf> no bother
<Tril> can you send me vrfy?
<Tril> j16
06:10pm
<Tril> thank you!!!!
<Tril> running it on tunes..
06:20pm
<hcf> abi: vrfy
<abi> vrfy is ftp://ftp.nikhef.nl/pub/network/vrfy.tar.Z
<Tril> abi: iso3166 eg?
<Tril> can't abi tell be the country name given the 2-letter country code?
<Tril> s/be/me/
<Tril> I need to know what country eg is
<Tril> ok, it's egypt
<hcf> after i add the factpacks, abi will be able to tell u
<Tril> with what command?
<hcf> just like:
<hcf> abi: .eg?
<abi> bugger all, i dunno, hcf
<Tril> ok
<Tril> u got the net RFC's, the linux LSM's, slashdot headlines, and the English dictionary on there?  :P
<hcf> in the mean time, u can grep ~/abi/factpacks/code_to_country.txt if u want
<hcf> thers a rfc index factpack
<Tril> i knew that one.. :)
<hcf> id like /. headlines
<Tril> I have a prog to get them in ~dem/bin/sdhl (it creates ~dem/html/sd.html)
<hcf> yeah, thats what i was gonna call my script
<Tril> not working today it seems
<hcf> s/yeah/heh/
06:30pm
<Tril> gotta go home
π Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<hcf> cya
06:40pm
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!ChanServ:*! netgod used GETPASS on channel #icelinux
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<hcf> hello abi
<abi> que tal, hcf
09:30pm
ωνω lar1 [larman@1Cust105.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> hoy lar1
<lar1> Hi
<lar1> I think I am starting to understand Linux ;)
<_QZ> heh
<_QZ> linux is ez
<hcf> ok, time to move of to the next os
<hcf> s/of/on/
<lar1> Yup!
<lar1> Linux is not hard, just complex...
ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<_QZ> no its not
<_QZ> linux is no more complex then dos
<_QZ> linux just has more programs for u to use
<_QZ> with dos u start out with nothing
<lar1> Just Linux its self is just a little more complex... Linux+X is very complex
<_QZ> and learn new programs as u get them
<_QZ> linux just comes with everything
<lar1> Hmmm, good point.
<_QZ> u dont have to learn everything at once
<_QZ> but ppl think all these programs are part of the total linux package and that they have to learn them all to know linux
11:40pm
<_QZ> and if u get a good X server like accelX then its cake to install and use
<lar1> Well, you have to know how to use most of them to effectively be a "Linux power user", right?
<_QZ> yes
<lar1> accelX?  Is that any better then fvwm?
<_QZ> fvwm is not an X server
<_QZ> fvwm is a window manager
<lar1> xfree86 then?
<_QZ> linux -- X server -- wm -- apps
<_QZ> s/apps/Xapps/
<_QZ> xfree is free and harder to config
<_QZ> accelX is not free
<_QZ> its $100-300
<lar1> Hmmm... not cheap.
<_QZ> unless u get it from a warez site
<_QZ> but accelX is quality software unlike so much other crap software on the market
<lar1> I just type ./Xconfigurator and pray.
<lar1> The rest... just does its self ;)
<_QZ> with accelX u run Xsetup and tell it what card, monitor and mouse u have and its done
<_QZ> accelX is also fast
<abi> okay, _QZ.
<_QZ> and supports almost every card made
<_QZ> stupid bot
<_QZ> accelX?
<abi> i think accelX is not free or fast
<lar1> Faster then Xfree86?
<lar1> Hehe...
<_QZ> abi is a dumb bot
<_QZ> abi?
<abi> _QZ?
<_QZ> whois abi?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain
<_QZ> what is abi?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain
<_QZ> abi: die
<abi> well, die is AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.........
<_QZ> abi: shutdown
<_QZ> abi: leave #tunes
<abi> goodbye, _QZ.
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<_QZ> haha
<_QZ> oops
<_QZ> ack
<_QZ> i cant get abi back here
<_QZ> hcf is gonna kill me
ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes
<lar1> There you go!
<lar1> I fixed :)
<_QZ> phew
11:50pm
<_QZ> how?
<lar1> msg abi join #tunes
<_QZ> hmm, i went to #tunes_test and told abi to join #tunes
<lar1> Does abi do DCC?
<_QZ> dont know
<lar1> Does abi log?
<_QZ> no, but TUNES does
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0104
IRC log ended Mon Jan  4 00:00:01 1999