IRC log started Sun Jan 10 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0110 blah ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) 12:20am !gibson.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT zsoldos.openprojects.net 8005 from ^lilo !gibson.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT hogan.openprojects.net 8005 from ^lilo ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) ωνω macgyver [macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt] has joined #tunes Hi, all! How is going on this project?? When is TUNES code starts up?? 06:20am ωνω macgyver [macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt] has left #tunes [] ωνω FareWell [rideaufr@137.194.160.71] has joined #Tunes ωνω core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes plein! 07:50am ωνω FareWell is now known as Fare ωνω macgyver [macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt] has joined #tunes hi, again !! eih! Fare....that's fare... [macgyver(macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt)] there is something new in TUNES?? [macgyver(macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt)] When you start programming the OS code?? [macgyver(macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt)] you, guys talk a lot and do very little for the real OS!!! When you start programming the OS code?? you, guys talk a lot and do very little for the real OS!! macgyver: Tunes has several functional os bases it can choose from, mind you macgyver: I wrote one of them; it should be public in a few days. 08:10am macgyver: (talk in the channel) *shrug* i have a computer booting the said OS base just next to me. macgyver: if you want to make things faster, we'll happily accept your contribution ωνω macgyver [macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt] has left #tunes [] ωνω macgyver [macgyver@bjas1-p8.telepac.pt] has joined #tunes 08:20am hum core: ai-je toute latitude pour modifier le Makefile? ωνω SignOff core: #TUNES (Ping timeout for core[core.suntech.fr]) ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Read error to Fare[137.194.160.71]: Connection reset by peer) ωνω Fare [rideaufr@137.194.160.71] has joined #Tunes 08:30am ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[137.194.160.71]) ωνω SignOff macgyver: #TUNES (Read error to macgyver[bjas1-p8.telepac.pt]: EOF from client) ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes ωνω NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from lucas.openprojects.net [11:41am] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net lucas.openprojects.net ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω _QZ has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES Operating System http://www.tunes.org ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES hey, great idea, _QZ, we could call TUNES an OS! why didn't I think of it before? <_QZ> eh? oh, I usually like to say "TUNES is NOT an Operating System!" maybe I'll change my mind. <_QZ> OS is what ppl use to refer to that main code that runs all other code <_QZ> where would i find that linuxthreads or pthreads or some kinda threads lib for linux 12:10pm an OS is a complete system. The kernel is only a part. 12:20pm abi, pthreads is at ftp://sipb.mit.edu/pub/pthreads abi, linuxthreads is at http://pauillac.inria.fr/~xleroy/linuxthreads/ <_QZ> and those are for glibc1? 12:30pm didn't look. just got u some urls how lazy can you be? <_QZ> well i was at gnu.org and they only have shit for glibc2 That's cuz glibc2 IS gnu's lib... what the g is for <_QZ> and glibc1 isnt? libc5 is not FSF that's why there is a split I don't know what glibc1 is if it exists. actually I dont know much about these libraries <_QZ> libc5 == glibc1 12:40pm π Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] ωνω ByteLord [xtreamist@raptor.brfmasthugget.se] has joined #tunes <_QZ> hi que tal, _QZ hello niihau, ByteLord 01:10pm ωνω Fare [fare@sweety.via.ecp.fr] has joined #Tunes ωνω NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [02:10pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net ωνω ByteLord [xtreamist@raptor.brfmasthugget.se] has joined #TUNES ωνω ByteLord [xtreamist@raptor.brfmasthugget.se] has left #tunes [] gakuk! π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 1 hrs 36 min 13 secs hi Tril!!! I can now announce my article -- it's at http*~fare/articles/ll99/ <_QZ> any1 gonna send me core's os? Fare: No, it's not Fare: Oh, it's on www but not www2 I haven't got it working yet. It only works on a Pentium. 02:30pm Fare: any clue of options to change to make it run on a 486? <_QZ> i have a p2 to run it on <_QZ> k6's QZ: I think core will publish it in a few days <_QZ> but i want it now if have put a slightly easier to install version of it on sweety: ~fare/files/tmp/ BUT 1) don't spread the word, and 2) please tell core that I let you see it <_QZ> do u have a binary? and 3) be positive about it, and send criticism directly to core Fare: are you giving it to qz? you can build it yourself <_QZ> ok QZ I have a binary. but you can't give it away Tril: yes <_QZ> why would i be handing it out? <_QZ> its not like its gonna be of much use to anyone QZ: you can make your own binary from the address above <_QZ> ugh <_QZ> bzip2? hmmm... bzip2 is http://www.muraroa.demon.co.uk/ the binary is not very interesting -- it boots, gives you a prompt, but not much interesting commands, and no help (so /o the sources, you're lost) 02:40pm qz I emailed you the binary <_QZ> Tril: thanks tcn says it works on his pentium, but it locks up on my 486s it detects 650 MB or 3775 MB of memory and hangs right away (on a 16 or 8 meg machine) abi: have I put a wrong URL about bzip2, anywhere? fare: wish i knew <_QZ> hmm, it detected my ram correctly but gave me a read error try another disk? did you use dd? <_QZ> no i used cp <_QZ> crap, dd: /dev/fd0: I/O error <_QZ> maybe the floppy went bad π Tril/#TUNES thinks it's a bad disdk <_QZ> uhh <_QZ> his OS is fucking up my floppies <_QZ> i had brix on this floppy, and it copied core's os to it just fine 02:50pm <_QZ> after i had run his os from the floppy it was bad <_QZ> i tried a second floppy, same exact thing ok, compile it yourself :) or use bochs <_QZ> ah good idea QZ: write-protect the disk when you run his OS! Fare: did you have to? not afaik the floppy looks quite fine <_QZ> hmm <_QZ> it worked when write protected might depmend on the controller... <_QZ> well his cpu detection works perfectly qz: got any SMP machines to test it on? <_QZ> nope :( hum, make depend hangs hard on sweety in ~fare/fare/www :( :( :( unkillable! Tril: core suggested that we ask metalab to be www.tunes.org (at least, when we gain "seriousness" points) this would also allow us to sustain /. effect... apache can always sustain /. effect, just feeds out pages at a slower rate 03:00pm hum, ok but I'd still prefer bespin to be available for work rather than /. serving... anyway, I still await for fixes on my article... I'm pretty sure there's a lot to fix, but I'm sick of it, and don't anna have yet another look at it :( btw, hevea did a great job at transforming latex into html! π Tril/#TUNES looks frantically for another browser <_QZ> Fare: uhh do u have keyboard problems with core's os? 03:10pm <_QZ> ah it defaults to a screwy keymap ahh, mozilla. Nice. 03:20pm brb π Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] ωνω core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes people hi <_QZ> hola core hi qz :) 03:30pm dum dum dum hum hum hum fare: t'en dans le coin? 03:50pm hmm, well, going to bed then :) 04:00pm ωνω SignOff core: #TUNES (usleep(SHORT);) ωνω Tril_ [dem@hh154ws27.hh154lab.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES ωνω Beholder [beholder@ppp-006.m2-1.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes oi beholder! Hello Tril Tril: I sent the final message to the old UniOS list ah.. are you removing it? ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) ωνω Tril_ is now known as Tril Tril: 2 Months... no one is supposed to post to it anymore, but if they don't get the message, then I can redirect them to the new list So by March the list will be gone ok, have you tried sending the archives through IMAP? Nope, I will try right now 04:20pm 283 Messages on their way :) hehe.. hopefully to YOUR mailbox besides, I've read them all :) I may be missing 1 or 2, but at this point I don't think it would matter So is bin still helping with the web page? yes ωνω Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES Operating System http://www.tunes.org/ || New web layout proposal http://www2.tunes.org/~bineng/ Wow, that guy is great with layout. Why no logo until working code? 04:30pm That's Fare's decree. It's because he doesn't want the "Freedows effect", of a spiffy webpage with no substance behind it-- leading to the fragmentation of a project. Ya, freedows does have a nice page. Not even a logo to represent the development project (vs. the final product)? I think they would be one and the same logo, and I don't think so Fair enough :) I like the new page layout though. I just wrote a blurb at /~bineng/index.html explaining that any tunes member may modify or add pages in the dir by cd ~bineng/html Will the nav bar show up in all the sub pages? yes, I will set that up to be added automatically, unless someone else does first hmm where is the sitemap. gonna snag it. xoom isn't working for me I like the docs page also, kinda looks like the UniOS one hum. 04:40pm Fare: have you commented on http://members.xoom.com/unios/tunessite.html? Tril: I agree with all of it so far Beholder: also see my list of TODO at http://www2.tunes.org/cgi-bin/TunesWiki?TODO ...do both of you have a .project and/or .plan on your bespin account? my comment is: I don't really care what the layout is but please make one listing the current TUNES projects you are working on and the times you are availble for meeting on IRC. 1) there must be a lynx-friendly option 2) if there are multiple layouts, or even only one that be the same everywhere, we need metaprogramming ok ok 3) PHP3 is an option, though I'd prefer an internal tool abi, php3? tril: bugger all, i dunno Tril: .project and .plan? What are they for? 4) if someone stands up and is ready to really manage the site, then HE gets to decide, despite my contrary opinion. but he gets full responsibility When you run "finger user" on bespin, or finger user@hostname for one of our many hostnames, it displays user information and the contents of those two files Tril RE: TODO... #2 is pyscho job... anyone offered yet? nah, I think I'm going to wait until my subprojects administration tool in perl is done, then get all the todo's in there as subprojects, then start actively recruiting people for all of them. Tril: you can quote my 4 points (well, merge 2 and 3) on a page. fare: why don't you edit ~bineng/html/index.html and write your requirements there, visibly? I made ~bineng/html writable by group tunes so everyone can do that ok No CVS to detect collisions... this ought to be fun if people start editing at the same time. (we will make backups if necessary) 04:50pm binEng says we should have more frequent News postings, what do you think? Tril: I agree. You need to show progress somehow. for example right now I can announce "Welcome the new member: Maneesh Yadev" Tril: I put news like that on the UniOS page all the time. Every new member gets to see his/her name up on the page news. It goes towards making better member relations Ultima is k-lined 05:00pm Tril: uh? is he??? Tril: why? apparently lilo has been acting strangely lately, possibly abusing his ability to ban people I'm editing right now... Tril: The mails are all uploaded ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes 05:10pm I'm done editing ~bineng/html/index.html we need avoid noisy news postings we need to progress, and when we progress to show it we ought not to show we progress when it's not the case! Well, is a new member "noise"? depends. most likely is, unless the member comes with fame and code associated to him or unless there are lots of members at once The fact that UniOS people come in pack shall be said the fact that Mr.X subscribed the list might not now, since you already made the announce, I dunno whether to remove it or not Fare: That's the list of members on our page, not the mailing list I think Beholder should decide about the announcements for now. sure. That's just my opinion Beh: whaddyathink? Beholder: are you doing one of your vanishing acts again? Stop talking for 10 mins, then ping timeout and not come back for the day? Beh: btw, you're not on the members page :) 05:20pm Tril: Sorry I was working on the UniOS index... sorry I think the announcements are important... even if there is no progress, anything like a new member could be news. Wish there was a way to get my IRC to beep or something when the channel is active Beh: well, I stand by my opinion, but YOU are the coordinator! Maybe announce the various pages (~bineng, Wiki?TODO, etc) about the web design? Fare: All decisions I make, get to go by Tril and You first. If you think it's a bad idea, and against the principles of Tunes, then don't do it :) no, that's not it. 05:30pm If YOU are the coordinator, YOU get to decide. We still get to emit our opinion, though. But I do think it's ridiculous to announce new members, unless those members are special (in their quality * quantity product) As the coordinator, I think it would help the project to have frequent updates to the main page, showing what going on with the project. Announcments are the best way to do this. Some people like seeing their name on the news thing, it makes them feel wanted. The member will announce himself much better by his contributions! Well, again, that's MY opinion, and YOU are the coordinator. Still, I think we shouldn't seek news for the sake of news. How many new members (expressed desire to join tunes effort) do you get per week/month? We should seek code for the sake of news. Beholder: one per month? Beholder: this doesn't mean a thing. What means something is outright contribution (code, docs, time, hardware, etc) whats this "small logo" mention on http://www2.tunes.org/~bineng/docs.html? Fare: Do you ever ask what the person would like to contribute? maybe there are different sizes for a logo, but that doesn't matter since we don't have a logo. For instance, you are not officially a member (see members.html) -- are you going to announce yourself? Beholder: no, I don't, but if you can do it in a constructive way, do it! that's a thing I have no talent to do. Fare: I think I will have to redirect joiners to myself. Then I can deal with that stuff, and find a reason to put them in the news. Beh: as you wish Tril: how is the navbar put in? Fare: Has anyone thought of a graphical version of the index page? Beholder: When was the first post to unios? Beh: see my comments in http*~bineng/ OK, I'm missing the very first message. Tril: It was a test post... umm... not sure when I sent it I think I deleted it from my mailbox, when I saw it worked. Do you really want it? nah it's fine 05:40pm http://www2.tunes.org/~bineng/ your list only started Dec 2? When did you start the project? http://www2.tunes.org/~fare/articles/ll99/index.en.html hcf: it's not, right now. hcf: as long as a program puts it in, it doesn't matter what program (to Fare) Tril: Started in September 1998 Tril: Believe it or not, we only did e-mail back then :) <_QZ> wow the celery400 can be clocked at 630mhz qz when did those come out? recently? <_QZ> week or two ago <_QZ> they have a 366 and 400 <_QZ> the 400 is $184 <_QZ> i need to get a dual board and 2 of those 400's <_QZ> dont know why but i do :) QZ: For what? NT? Beholder: u working on ur bespin .plan? <_QZ> pico would run soooo much faster hcf: do we need a standardized format for plan/project files? i.e for automatic reading _QZ chips over 1000MHz are supposed to come out this year depends on what the automagic reader can handle π Fare/#Tunes is away (sleep) ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) who's doing the reader? hcf: Not too sure yet, can I see an example one? Beholder: finger nef@bespin.ml.org Beholder: finger dem@bespin.ml.org Beholder: I'm combining the archives for both unios lists OK? Beholder: finger johnc@idsoftware.com Tril: NP, go ahead i suggest .p/p max length of 20 lines Tril: Ok, got the format. I will put one one in by tomorrow night Beholder: ther is no real format, its whatever u wanna put in I gotta go in a minute... 05:50pm Beh: checkout the unios web archives now. and try the searching, too Tril: Ok ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[hh154ws27.hh154lab.wwu.edu]: EOF from client) ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) Gotta go ωνω SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-006.m2-1.sub.ican.net]: Connection reset by peer) 06:00pm ωνω NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [07:28pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES π Tril/#TUNES is away: (not here) [BX-MsgLog Off] ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250102.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250102.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 916028024 from #tunes >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250102.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 916030564 from #tunes !netgod:*! could all the admins come to #openprojects for a sec? ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250119.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes !ChanServ:*! ^lilo used GETPASS on channel #freebsd abi, my toafm? tcn, your toafm is Wed/Thu 2100-0300, Fri 2100-0700, Sat 1500-0700, Sun 1500-0300 GMT 09:50pm abi, pico? tcn: wish i knew ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) 10:10pm ωνω core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes anyone alive? :) 10:40pm <_QZ> ya 10:50pm hi :) sorry, was reading crap on the web (my #2 occupation) <_QZ> u know anything about gdk, threads and gnome? assuming s/gdk/gtk/, i know their purpose, but i've never programmed anything with them <_QZ> ../../tools/convertrgb/convertrgb: can't resolve symbol 'gdk_threads_mutex' hmm are you trying to compile on libc5+pthreads or something? <_QZ> libc5 and linuxthreads yeah i don't think this will work :/ <_QZ> why i suppose it's as standard as posix is usually.. ie. some of it is only defined in glibc2 <_QZ> ack and i doubt any gnome developer ever tested it with libc5 and a threads package yeah, that's what people say about posix usually :) using threads in libc5 is a macgyver kind of thing anyway.. most of it isn't thread-safe <_QZ> so gnome doesnt work on a libc5 system then? i doubt it.. maybe i'm wrong, i'm not a gtk expert.. i just think it won't <_QZ> ugh 11:00pm i really didn't want to "upgrade" to glibc, but i didn't have much choice.. most modern software does the same kind of thing <_QZ> this sucks well, if everything posixish was wonderful, you wouldn't be writing an OS, right? :) <_QZ> heh oh btw, just curious - your system boots off harddisk and into a filesystem, right? <_QZ> it can boot off a hard disk but i dont have ide/scsi drives yet <_QZ> only floppy drives <_QZ> s/drives/drivers/ oh ok.. i was going to ask what bootloader you boot from, and if it was grub, and is it any good, but nevermind then :) yeah, i only boot off floppy so far too; not that the system image will be larger than a floppy anytime soon <_QZ> brix will never be larger than a floppy π core/#tunes will port netscape to it :-) <_QZ> netscape is an app and doesnt work in brix well, mozilla then :) probably a good way to test your VM system :P <_QZ> brix uses interchangable pieces <_QZ> VM? virtual memory <_QZ> no virtual memory in brix i know, so does my system, but mozilla w/ nglayout can be hammered into components (or interchangeable pieces) yeah, everything works off the persistant store, right? <_QZ> yup <_QZ> brix treats ram as cache that's neat.. but what if the sum of cached persistant store is greated than the available ram at a given moment? greater, too ie. for pieces that cannot be unloaded <_QZ> it ages each object in ram and the oldest objects are removed yeah.. that's what i had understood; but what if it can't remove any, because all are necessary to eachother? if the system grows large, that may happen <_QZ> it will popup a message that says "BUY MORE RAM" :) heheh just curious.. i know i have become sort of used not to care about how much physical ram is available on my box at a given time <_QZ> and then i will be loved by ram makers and get free ram heheh <_QZ> i have 160meg on this box i have 128 megs, and i still can make it swap, just start netscape :) <_QZ> so i dont ever think i will get a "BUY MORE RAM" message well, it depends what you think brix will be used for <_QZ> but that is with app driven systems <_QZ> netscape is a 4meg binary 11:10pm <_QZ> well 3.x is yeah, but even breaking it into small pieces (a concept on which i agree fully, my system is also based on that, even though dependencies can become a nightmare), it won't solve the problem of having not enough memory if you have about 5,000 pieces in memory with their persistant store exceeding the size of physical ram and a dependency tree the size of Utah, you'll start having problems :) <_QZ> brix would load a viewer-only chunk to display an html object <_QZ> that viewer would age and be removed if the user didnt scroll the object yeah, but what if the html object contains javascript, several java applets and other crap? most of the jvm needs to be around until you close the html object <_QZ> brix likes it if actions hurry up and die <_QZ> so things like jvm are not liked in brix <_QZ> but they will work but they'll take lots of the available memory :) and the lifecycle of an applet is on the long and sticky side.. usually they don't really exit until you close the entire browser :P <_QZ> then u'll get the "buy more ram" message alot :) hmm.. okay.. not sure this is the best solution tho :) although, for having coded a virtual memory manager, i can see why you want to avoid that :) <_QZ> but since the native system only takes about 2meg for most of yer networking daily needs it will leave plenty of room for other non-native things like jvm <_QZ> the brix ram cache is no different than vm yeah, but, say, compiling a 10 megs project in a window while displaying a java applet in another will start giving problems, while this works fine on *nix :) well, it is, you can't swap parts of a piece out? <_QZ> what does a jvm consist of and it is much slower to reload/relocate a piece than just swapping pages and swapping them back in at the same virtual address <_QZ> lots of functions and something that interprets bytecode and runs those functions, right? a large core with the bytecode interpreter, then a shitload of classes, half of them needed for most applets right <_QZ> those classes are broken into each method it _is_ possible to run one without VM (i've ported Kaffe to DOS for fun), just not very usable :) <_QZ> the interpreter is the only thing needed all the time no, entire classes are stored as binaries <_QZ> oh and vm must swap out and then swap in, save/load <_QZ> brix only has to load 11:20pm not really.. if you're swapping out pages of code, they aren't saved, only reloaded from the demand-paged executable <_QZ> since the persistence automatically saved changed objects and on data, vm saves pages, and brix stores changes, so the time taken is similar :) <_QZ> not really <_QZ> in vm a page is old before being removed, right? right <_QZ> in brix it would have been saved long before it got old enuf to be removed well, there is no need to remove pages still being used <_QZ> so brix never has to save when removing objects hmm, so when exactly do you save state information? <_QZ> during any idle times it saves and at defined intervals if no idle time like vm daemons then <_QZ> eh? like the swapd process under linux <_QZ> i dont know what swapd does it awakes at given intervals and stores as many pages as required for physical memory not to fall below a given limit (more or less) <_QZ> ah the idea being hopefully not to thrash the disk if memory runs low (hopefully being the keyword :) so you don't run the cpu in paging mode in brix, right? <_QZ> yes i do 11:30pm hmm, so why don't you implement VM later to supplement physical memory :) <_QZ> vm would be MUCH MORE complicated in rbix than any other system <_QZ> brix can have 1000's of actions in mmeory at once <_QZ> under normal circumstances <_QZ> plus vm allows ppl to write fat bloated apps <_QZ> something brix tries to do away with i know, that's all to your honor.. but reloading and relocating an entire action from disk with state info will be slower than swapping pages, i think.. especially if the system is running low on mem <_QZ> actions that are running cant age <_QZ> if u run lots of actions that dont hurry up anddie then u need mor ram then you can't run any legacy app at all, as Tunes plans to do, it "paranoid emulation boxes" :) s/it/in/ i can type, really <_QZ> legacy??? <_QZ> not a chance <_QZ> i dont even want them in brix well, it's good to have them around until you have native ones just my opinion :) <_QZ> native apps are made much quicker than legacy stuff depends what you're doing a HTML 4.0/DOM/javascript/java compliant browser is no easy task <_QZ> since everything is actions u dont need to write new code 11:40pm (just an example, since that's one of the main things people use on computing systems today) i know, but you need to write it at least once <_QZ> for one things like js and java are on the unwanted list so dont matter to me well, i meant, if you want to attract people to your platform <_QZ> i have a list of stuff i do now and that is all im making for brix <_QZ> i have js and java disabled in netscape well, say, emacs then :) <_QZ> i dont use emacs <_QZ> i use pico not you, but a lot of developers do <_QZ> brix will have a text viewer and editor <_QZ> ah well brix has its own language with editor <_QZ> no C yeah.. but lots of people will be lost without emacs (ask Fare for one).. <_QZ> the brix language and editor will blow away emacs/C but there are only 24 hours in a day for you :) i'm just discussing things, and i seriously hope everything works out as you say <_QZ> the language is an integral part of the system yeah, i know that concept :) <_QZ> the normal user will be using the language daily yeah, that's part of the Tunes idea; no more 'programmers' or 'users'. the simple fact of moving an icon on the desktop (say), would be programming. <_QZ> no icons in brix whatever you call them :) 'visual representations of actions' :) <_QZ> nope what then? :) <_QZ> think oberon, but not i haven't used it much .. just basically to test oberon-on-linux-ggi <_QZ> the language is NL based <_QZ> u just type what u wanna do 11:50pm hmm, i have yet to see such a language that takes less time to express things with, than Turing-equivalent things, but i'll be happy to see it :) <_QZ> open some object and scroll down 10 lines <_QZ> that would work in brix contextual language i assume then <_QZ> ya did you have a look at rebol? it's not an NL or anything, but it's contextual, and developed by a guy with quite some track record <_QZ> rebol is not free i know i didn't mean it as using it.. just looking at the concepts in it <_QZ> i dont think they had that on the page there's some info <_QZ> ofocurse it was "under construction" the last time i was there it looks as readable as perl (sarcasm), but there are a couple of nice things <_QZ> hehe <_QZ> well im gonna crash now <_QZ> cya yeah, i should head to work anyway (9:07 AM here) cya.. nice talking with you ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) ωνω SignOff core: #TUNES (this is *not* the default quit message) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0111 IRC log ended Mon Jan 11 00:00:01 1999