IRC log started Wed Jan 13 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0113
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ωνω Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0]
ωνω BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about
ωνω Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from varley.openprojects.net)
ωνω Your host is varley.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie (from varley.openprojects.net)
ωνω This server was cobbled together Sat May 9 1998 at 12 25:56 EDT(from varley.openprojects.net)
ωνω varley.openprojects.net u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie dioswkfcg biklmnopstv 
ωνω [local users on irc(24)] 12%
ωνω [global users on irc(68)] 33%
ωνω [invisible users on irc(139)] 67%
ωνω [ircops on irc(11)] 5%
ωνω [total users on irc(207)]
ωνω [unknown connections(0)]
ωνω [total servers on irc(27)] (avg. 7 users per server)
ωνω [total channels created(57)] (avg. 3 users per channel)
!varley.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 59 (45 clients)
ωνω Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES
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ωνω Topic for #TUNES: The TUNES Channel http://www.tunes.org/ for the TUNES OS project
ωνω topic set by Tril [Mon Jan 11 19:23:54 1999]
ωνω [Users(#TUNES:3)] 
[ TUNES     ] [ Fare      ] [ abi       ] 
ωνω Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998
ωνω BitchX: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.726 secs!!
!sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lucas.openprojects.net 8004 from ^lilo
!bear.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lucas.openprojects.net 8005 from ^lilo
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ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net]
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ωνω Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0]
ωνω BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about
ωνω Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lackey.openprojects.net)
ωνω Your host is lackey.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie (from lackey.openprojects.net)
ωνω This server was cobbled together Sat May 9 1998 at 12 25:56 EDT(from lackey.openprojects.net)
ωνω lackey.openprojects.net u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie dioswkfcg biklmnopstv 
ωνω [local users on irc(8)] 4%
ωνω [global users on irc(81)] 36%
ωνω [invisible users on irc(147)] 64%
ωνω [ircops on irc(11)] 5%
ωνω [total users on irc(228)]
ωνω [unknown connections(0)]
ωνω [total servers on irc(26)] (avg. 8 users per server)
ωνω [total channels created(58)] (avg. 3 users per channel)
!lackey.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 17 (16 clients)
ωνω Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES
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ωνω Topic for #TUNES: The TUNES Channel http://www.tunes.org/ for the TUNES OS project
ωνω topic set by Tril [Mon Jan 11 19:23:57 1999]
ωνω [Users(#TUNES:3)] 
[ TUNES     ] [ abi       ] [ Fare      ] 
ωνω Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998
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ωνω ultima [ultima@user-38lcecm.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes
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<ultima> hi twil!
<Tril> hi ooltima
<ultima> heh
<Tril> yo know i just watch the log for people to join to see if I should sign on
<Tril> if everyone did that nobody would show up
<ultima> Hah
<ultima> thats lame
<Tril> IRC wastes time
<ultima> yeah
<ultima> I multitask tho
02:40pm
<ultima> mi reading news too! =)
02:50pm
<ultima> Later...
ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Leaving)
03:00pm
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<Fare> hum
04:40pm
ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear)
ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #Tunes
π ^lilo/#Tunes looks in
<_QZ> greetings
06:00pm
ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250106.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> heh.. IRC is out of style today :)
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
06:10pm
ωνω Beholder [chaldea@ppp-163.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<Beholder> Anyone seen tril today?
<Beholder> Or fare?
<abi> fare are you suggesting that my a Fairie? You know, Gay?
<_QZ> fare?
<abi> fare are you suggesting that my a Fairie? You know, Gay?
<_QZ> <Fare> hum
<_QZ> === SIGNOFF #tunes Fare Connection reset by pear
<_QZ> fare died about an hour ago
<Beholder> Hey QZ
<_QZ> u seen clementine?
<Beholder> Clementine?  Nope :)
<_QZ> core's os
<_QZ> he has a working component system with vm and all
<_QZ> it just gives a blue screen and lets u use a cheap debugger
<_QZ> and it supports smp
<Beholder> QZ: Thats pretty awesome.  What do you think of Flux?
<_QZ> should i think anything of it?
<_QZ> its nothing impressive, just another unix clone
<Beholder> Not really, just wondering what people think of it.  I thought Flux was an OS dev kit?
<_QZ> full blown os kit
<_QZ> it uses freebsd and linux drivers and has everything to be its own os
<Beholder> Ahh.  Not interesting then.
<_QZ> linux could be an os dev kit 
<Beholder> How goes BRiX dev?
<_QZ> u have all the source
<_QZ> well after seeing clementine i decided to work faster on brix
<_QZ> :)
<_QZ> core is going to release it soon and i must beat him
<Beholder> I was going to ask you some stuff about BRiX, if you don't mind?  I was wondering how you were doing your clustering technology?
<_QZ> clustering?
06:30pm
<Beholder> Distributed computing (sorry clustering is new new buzzword term)
<_QZ> well its not true distributed computing
<Beholder> How so?
<_QZ> all code in brix works on an object
<_QZ> it uses O-spaces where action threads run around an object
<_QZ> each O-space is isolated from others
<_QZ> to do distributed computing (dc) u must relocate an object to another machine and send messages to it (run actions)
<_QZ> and brix can query machines on the network, in its dc domain, to find idle machines and relocate objects for processing to those machines
<Beholder> And it returns a result?
<_QZ> no, u relocate the object back to the original machine
<Beholder> No raw communications channel to send data back and forth?
06:40pm
<_QZ> the actions can send objects back
<Beholder> How do you implement your network communications?
<_QZ> t what level?
<_QZ> at
<_QZ> the interface to everything is the same
<Beholder> I assume the NIC is objectified, but what do you do to send stuff back and forth between BRiX computers?  Is it raw data streams or objects also?
<_QZ> the storage fs, networking, serial, parallel, etc is all handled the same way
<_QZ> everything is objects
<Beholder> Hmm, how would TCP/IP be implemented?
<_QZ> u can only send messages in brix object.action(params)
<_QZ> object is the data in the o-space, the action is the message that gets threaded in the o-space and uses the params
<Beholder> Are you worried about network latency that will (potentially) cause?
<_QZ> eh?
<_QZ> that what will cause?
<Beholder> The fact that objects have to be passed over the network (sorry going back to the BRiX -> BRiX machine communications)
<_QZ> well yer not gonna be doing it over a 28.8 modem :)
<_QZ> most ppl use 100baseT
<_QZ> 10baseT could do it if the objects are small
<Beholder> What?!  Most ppl use 10 Base T :)   You only use 100 BaseT when you are connecting network segments :)
<_QZ> no u use 100baseT when u need to do dc
<Beholder> Oh, yes for DC :)  Not for file transfers and such :)
<_QZ> i will be uprading my home network to 100baseT after i get brix doing everything that the OSes/programs i use do
<_QZ> and then all the machines will become a single brix dc system
06:50pm
<_QZ> <Beholder> Hmm, how would TCP/IP be implemented?
<_QZ> now what did u wanna know there?
<Beholder> And if you get some developers on your side, you could get some kick ass games going (clustered Half-Life... no more stoppage when explosions happen :)
<_QZ> stoppage?
<_QZ> i dont get stoppage :)
<Beholder> QZ:  Just genrally how any network standard will work in BRiX... I mean you can't send objects with IPX, it's just a pure data stream.  I think you meant that the protocols are Objects themselves which interact directly with the NIC
<Beholder> QZ: P200 MMX, Voodoo2, 64 Megs Ram, Win95 OSR2.1... I get bogged to 10 FPS when huge explosions happen
<_QZ> bummer
<_QZ> celeron472, voodoo1, 128meg, win98... i get good fps all the time
<_QZ> how do u et fps in halflife?
<Beholder> It's entirely processor dependent, I suspect.  My friend has a AMD K6-2 380 with a TNT card and it bogs to about 20 FPS
<Beholder> QZ: You don't... I'm only estimating based on how the controls react
<_QZ> what mode are u in?
<_QZ> res
<Beholder> 800x600x16 bit color, Glide
ωνω SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-163.m2-3.sub.ican.net]: Connection reset by peer)
ωνω Beholder [chaldea@ppp-163.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<Beholder> Sorry QZ, missed your reply
<_QZ> i use 640
<Beholder> Thats probably another reason... do you have your Voodoo1 clocked up to 75 yet?
<_QZ> i have it on the faster of the 2 clocks
07:00pm
<Beholder> My friend was quite psycho into cooling and overclocking his Diamond Monster card... he had it performing near the speed of a voodoo2 card (with the help of 2 486 heat sinks and fans :)
<_QZ> how can u overclock it?
ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kbajb.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes
<_QZ> i was told it can only be overclocked by the setting in the config
π ultima/#tunes growls lowly
<Beholder> It's a setting the the registry
<_QZ> ultima: u freak dont run yer spider on me
<ultima> _QZ u freak dont killall httpd on me
<Beholder> QZ: I'm talking to the guy in ICQ and he said he had it up to 58 stable...
π ultima/#tunes ponders
<ultima> grr
<_QZ> well if it can be oc'd then i can do it
<_QZ> i have a 12" oscillating fan blowing over the cpu and cards
<Beholder> QZ:  Guess you have to with the celery oc'ed :)   My Diamond Monster II can't go higher than 95 or it craps out 
ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Beholder> Gotta go now... sleep 
ωνω SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-163.m2-3.sub.ican.net]: Connection reset by peer)
07:10pm
ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb9va.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes
<ultima> hullo
<_QZ> hi
09:20pm
ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250111.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> Hey
<abi> que tal, tcn
>>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250111.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 916292103 from TUNES
ωνω GMOL [gmol@h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca] has joined #tunes
<tcn> Hello..
<GMOL> who all is here, anybody whose active on the mailing list?
<tcn> Yeah, I am
<GMOL> This is Maneesh, you are?
09:40pm
<tcn> Tom Novelli
<tcn> So you're proposing we set a deadline and write a bunch of papers before actually coding anything.. hmm..
<GMOL> I think it's reasonable
<tcn> That's fine with me, as long as the papers aren't too longwinded and academic, and people don't spend too much time prettying them up
<GMOL> I think our biggest problem is lack of commitment
<GMOL> nothing will come of nothing...
<GMOL> what do you think?
<GMOL> yes...exactly
<GMOL> acedemics suffer from uneeded complexity
<tcn> We need concise summaries, not ramblings
<GMOL> YES
<ultima> Hola
<tcn> welcome back, ultima
<ultima> We need implementation specifics
<ultima> Not academic explanations of why language X and theory Y suck
<ultima> tcn im coding muh butt off
<GMOL> Once we have a plan that anyone can follow, the implementation is easy.
<tcn> cool
<GMOL> What do you mean by specifics?
<tcn> hehe.. some things sound good in theory, but just don't work.
<tcn> Sometimes you just have to TRY an idea to know..
<_QZ> someone NEEDS to set down some standards fast and then begin coding and changing the standards as u encounter problems
<_QZ> working code gives ppl hope and they will work more
<_QZ> papers dont mean jack, but code shows progress
ωνω SignOff GMOL: #TUNES (Ping timeout for GMOL[h24-64-168-191.mt.wave.shaw.ca])
<_QZ> i have rewritten brix more times than i can remember and each time i learn something new which makes the next rewrite even better
<tcn> There are some ideas floating around (Arrows, Prism, etc..) that need to be summarized in a way that people can understand them. _Short_ papers would help.
<tcn> Yeah, if you try to get everything right the first time, it might end up being like MULTICS..
<_QZ> and u cant kiss everyones ass, fare/tril must tell everyone how its gonna be and it will force some ppl to leave tunes but it will move tunes forward
<tcn> I learned that the 386 protection model is based on MULTICS.. no wonder it sucks
<_QZ> there will never be a set of standards that pleases everyone
09:50pm
<tcn> Well if they want Tunes to be bloated, I'm out :)
<tcn> If they want to research forever, I'm out..
<_QZ> im making brix for myself
<_QZ> if no one else wants to use it, WHO CARES
<tcn> It might inspire someone, QZ.. if it's a "proof of concept" for something new..
<_QZ> the work of someone doing what they want is always better than someone trying to kiss ass
<tcn> haha, yeah
<_QZ> s/than someone/than that of someone/
<tcn> Hey qz.. what output format are you using with NASM?
<_QZ> bin
<tcn> Ok, same here. I might try RDF for modules..
<tcn> Now that they've got nasm .98 out (sort of)
<_QZ> here u wanna see something thats very secret? :)
<tcn> sure
10:00pm
<ultima> ?
<_QZ> ?
<tcn> ?
<ultima> wots very secret
<_QZ> nothing mr spider
<_QZ> :)
<tcn> hey ultima, what OS do you use?
<ultima> tcn: LameIX
<tcn> Freebsd?
<ultima> yeah
<ultima> FBSD OBSD and Linux
<tcn> currently Freebsd?
<ultima> yeah
<ultima> right now im in fbsd coding a game
<tcn> queso is cool :)
<tcn> QZ, I tried queso on a buncha sites, like all the major OS makers.. works great
<_QZ> heh
<ultima> queso is ok
<ultima> its not too accurate
<ultima> i hacked the kernel source for linux a bit back tomake it look like windows
<_QZ> sure
<_QZ> i need some smp docs
10:10pm
<_QZ> know of any????
<tcn> qz: linux-2.0.36.tar.gz
<tcn> :)
<_QZ> well code is ok but docs are better :)
<_QZ> do smp 486 machines exist?
<ultima> QZ yes
<_QZ> wow
<_QZ> i did not know that
<ultima> QZ well actually
<ultima> in theory they could exist
<ultima> i dont know if they got manufactured
<ultima> I'm not a big hardware buff
<tcn> I've heard of dual 386's, 10 years ago.. don't know if it was "SMP" though
<tcn> Look at Intel's site..
<tcn> Hey QZ, you ever look at John Fine's page? good stuff there..
<_QZ> ya
10:20pm
<_QZ> how do u do 64bit subtraction on the x86?
<tcn> carry
11:10pm
<_QZ> borrow
<tcn> yeah :)
<_QZ> ; edx:eax - ecx:ebx
<_QZ>         sub eax,ebx
<_QZ>         sbb edx,ecx
<tcn> hehe.. you thought Tunes was disorganized, look at NASM..
<_QZ> nasm works
<_QZ> ok i think brix can detect mhz of a cpu now :)
<tcn> cool
<tcn> I guess the only doc's on RDOFF2 are the source..
<ultima> rdoff sucks
<ultima> u really need to write your own binformat
<ultima> rdoff is more of the authors experimenting than anything else
<tcn> Yeah, I should prolly add a new output format to nasm
<_QZ> core wrote his own
<ultima> heh shit
<tcn> oh yeah, xcom
<_QZ> he has patches to binutils and nasm
11:20pm
<ultima> hoowah!
<ultima> well
<ultima> nasm should not be used for binaries
<ultima> its just not designed that way
<ultima> besides you'd be braindead 
<ultima> if u used it
<tcn> huh? Linux binaries?
<tcn> Sooner or later I gotta write my own assembler, might as well start now ;)
<ultima> no
<ultima> system binaries
<ultima> woo
<ultima> Botz 0.1 works
<tcn> ult: what would you use instead?
<tcn> hehe.. get this: NASM 0.98 should be available around October 15
<tcn> 3 months later..
<ultima> Heh
<ultima> dont ulove it
<_QZ> ok here goes my mhz test
11:30pm
<tcn> did it work?
<_QZ> no
<tcn> bummer.. what'd it do?
<_QZ> it said 0mhz
<_QZ> UGH
<_QZ> found the bug
<tcn> RDF looks allright for now.. simple to load & link..
<ultima> hahahah
<ultima> RDF is crappy though
<ultima> use ELF
<tcn> Isn't ELF too damn complicated?
<tcn> hmm, lesse
<_QZ> YES yES YES
<_QZ> oops
<tcn> jesus christ! 640 bytes for an 8 byte "program"!!
<tcn> I don't need all that shit, ultima
<tcn> btw, what's all this coding you're working on like mad?
<_QZ> my mhz detection works
<tcn> kick ass
<tcn> How do you do it, with a "inc eax" loop and a timer?
11:40pm
<ultima> hmm
<ultima> I would do a nop loop
<tcn> or how about "mov ecx, -1" then "loop $" :)
<ultima> tcn: The coding im workin on mad?
<tcn> ultima: yeah
<ultima> hehehe
<tcn> what is it?
<ultima> its a school project
<tcn> a Brix clone? :)
<ultima> pretty lame
<ultima> phear it
<ultima> pretty good for a couple of hours work
<tcn> yeah, programming courses are so lame, I don't take 'em
<_QZ> ; wait for the timer to tick
<_QZ> ; RDTSC
<ultima> _QZ: Send a copy of brix on over
<_QZ> ; wait for timer to tick again
<_QZ> ; RDTSC
<_QZ> ; mhz=(t2-t1)/54945
<ultima> Whoa
<_QZ> where t2 is the second RDTSC
<ultima> uhm
<_QZ> and it gives a perfect mhz reading
<ultima> RDTSC == what?
<_QZ> read time stamp counter
<_QZ> its a pentium thing
<ultima> how does that work?
<ultima> I mean, how would it to MHZ detection
<_QZ> the tsc is a 64bit register that incs every clock tick
<_QZ> cpu clock tick that is
<ultima> cpu clock tick...u mean the timer that happens 18.2 times a second tick?
<_QZ> so t2-t1 is the number of clock cycles in 1/18.2 seconds
<ultima> ah
<ultima> ok
<ultima> send it here
<_QZ> on a 200mhz cpu u have 200 million cpu clock ticks per second
<ultima> =) I'll try it on my 386 =)
<_QZ> in 1/18.2 seconds u have 10989010.989 cpu cycles
<_QZ> 10989010.989/54945 = 200
<tcn> what's the Model-Specific Register for?
<_QZ> msr is not one but many regs
<_QZ> k6 has 7 or 8
<_QZ> i assume they are the same as the pentiums
<_QZ> ok im gonna crash now
<tcn> later
<_QZ> tomorrow i will encrypt the brix image and let u gys have it :)
<_QZ> or ill just turn everything off
<_QZ> so ucan see the mhz
<_QZ> :)
<ultima> why dont u just give us sourcE?
<ultima> u said it'd be open source
<_QZ> ya WAY AFTER i get it all done
<_QZ> cant take the chance of M$ cloning brix before my brix is done
<tcn> Yeah, I'm thinking about doing the same thing
<tcn> Polish it up good before I release it
<_QZ> :)
11:50pm
<tcn> Except I jsut want it for my own use
<ultima> erm
<ultima> ur not nic
<ultima> nice even
<ultima> Yeah I like OSDev to learn
<_QZ> this is my baby and i will protect it
<ultima> I kinda want to make a commercial Firewall OS though
<tcn> Maybe I'd better just stay in Tunes, or some OS project, so I don't have to write everything for it :)
<ultima> free source but commercial support facilities
<_QZ> and if i release source then i will have a thousand morons telling me what needs to be changed in the kernel
<_QZ> when i dont give a damn
<ultima> no one says u have to listen to em
<ultima> think
<tcn> It would be worse than spam though
<ultima> what would Linux be if Linus listened to AST?
<tcn> who/what the hell is AST?
<_QZ> hehe
<tcn> the company?
<ultima> Andrew S. Tannenbaum
<tcn> oh.. hahaha
<ultima> He's a professor in .no, he like taught linus or osmething
<_QZ> no
<tcn> It would be a curiosity like Minix and Amoeba
<ultima> He said publically that Linus was a moron
<ultima> That a monolithic kernel was a 'stupid' idea
<_QZ> ya and his was better
<_QZ> i read that news article too
<tcn> I saw the email transcript of Linus and Andy's big argument..
<ultima> well
<ultima> microkernels and unix dont mix
<ultima> Hrmmmm
<tcn> Amoeba is also unix-like, right? I thought I saw X in with the sources
<ultima> How fast could an interpreter be?
<ultima> if I made a basic compiled LISP interpreter
<tcn> Forth interpreters are wicked fast
<ultima> reverse polish
<tcn> LISP, almost as fast..
π ultima/#tunes is thinking like ForthLisp
<ultima> Lisp syntax but designed as a general purpose language...
<tcn> Forth interpreters are so fast, nobody ever bothered to save compiled code as with other languages :)
<ultima> tcn: Well, I'm thinking of compiling the lisp into a forth-like bytecode
<ultima> why are they so fast?
<_QZ> i just gotta tune my 386/486 mhz code now
<ultima> brb
<tcn> hehe, the syntax is so simple. Just read a word, execute it (or compile it), and repeat :)
<tcn> My interpreter is prolly under 100 lines.. in ASM!
<ultima> heh
<ultima> thats what I was thinking
<ultima> basically like interpreted assembler...
<ultima> frick
<ultima> im hitting the sack
<ultima> goodnight guys
ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Leaving)
<tcn> heh, he crashed quick
<tcn> damn, it's 3 already
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0114
IRC log ended Thu Jan 14 00:00:01 1999