12:20am
<ruiner> hmmmm......oh man....I'm really out of it now...I'm trying to visualize memory as geographic shapes to visualize other ways to manage the memory
<billyboof> hahahhaah
<billyboof> i think i may have hit the best way... :)
<ruiner> I was thinking trees....
<ruiner> the I thought....well....if you tree it....it'd help to visualize it sideways...
<ruiner> so it turned into a triangle...
<ruiner> then I was thinking...maybe a tree where it starts at the lower addresses, and one starting at the highest going lower.....
<ruiner> so it turned into a ring
12:30am
<billyboof> wow..
<ruiner> I dunno
<ruiner> I have a lot more studying up to do before I really have to worry about it
<billyboof> hhhahaha....
* billyboof/#tunes remembers that time... ;-P
<ruiner> what does nop stand for?
<billyboof> no operation
<ruiner> ah
<billyboof> i forget which one exactly, but it's the same as either:
<billyboof> or al, al
<billyboof> or maybe: or ax,ax
<billyboof> since that does nothing
<carlito> see you guys later
<ruiner> it just or's itself....
<carlito> thanks for the help billy
<billyboof> later
<carlito> nice talking to you folks!
<carlito> goodnight
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<ruiner> night
<billyboof> ruiner: yeah.... if ax=5, what's 5 or 5 ?? :P
<ruiner> 5
<billyboof> yep...
<ruiner> whats 5 or 5 not?
<billyboof> or ax, ax doesn't modify any registers or flags...
<billyboof> i have to figure out my new memory map....
<ruiner> right
<ruiner> actually.....wouldn't 5 or 5 not be 5?
<ruiner> bad example...heh heh
<ruiner> no wait it wouldn't
<ruiner> it'd be....7
<billyboof> how do you figure?? 5 = 1001b....
<billyboof> do the binary math.... 1001b or 1001b.....
<billyboof> =1001b
<ruiner> no.
<ruiner> 5 is 101
<ruiner> 5 not is 010
<billyboof> oh.... hehehe
<ruiner> or them and you get 111
<ruiner> or 7
<billyboof> who said anything about not
<ruiner> I did...scroll up
<billyboof> oh... i missed that....
<ruiner> heh heh
<billyboof> start end contents
<billyboof> 0 05FF bios (1 page, 400h free)
<billyboof> 600 0607 memory size (free after init)
<billyboof> 1000 17FF idt (1 page, 200h free)
<billyboof> 2000 9FFF 8 free pages
<billyboof> 10000 1FFFF GDT (16 pages)
<billyboof> 20000 22FFF startup code32
<billyboof> 23000 2FFFF 12 free pages
<billyboof> 30000 4FFFF PAT (32 pages)
<billyboof> 50000 9FFFF 80 free pages
<billyboof> A0000
12:40am
<billyboof> A0000 0FFFFF ROM (80 pages)
<billyboof> ----------------------[1 MB boundry]-----------------------
<billyboof> 100000 100FFF page directory
<billyboof> 101000 108FFF page table 0-7
<billyboof> 109000 1FFFFFF free space <many pages>
<billyboof> --------------------------[PAT]----------------------------
<billyboof> shit
<billyboof> did that come up right?
<ruiner> heck...I wouldn't know right from wrong
<ruiner> I hate working in hex
<billyboof> hahaha
<billyboof> i see one thing wrong with my memory map already
<billyboof> 2000 9FFF 8 free pages
<billyboof> should be from 2000 to FFFF
12:50am
<ruiner> hmmmmmmm
01:10am
<ruiner> I'm gonna go
<ruiner> night
<billyboof> ok... talk to you later
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
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01:50am
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<smoke> hello
02:00am
<Fare> hum
02:20am
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<Yo> DO YOU KNOW J?CL
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05:10am
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<Tomy> hola abi
<abi> niihau, Tomy
<Tomy> guau abi
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05:30am
-:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear)
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<AlonzoTG> y0
06:20am
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world)
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<iStormy> hi
<Fare> lo
08:00am
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<mith_gone> hello
-:- mith_gone is now known as mithris
09:30am
<iStormy> hi
<mithris> heh..:D i didn't think any1 was alive..
<mithris> could you tell me a little about tunes? how far work has come?
<iStormy> i dunno...i'm not associated with tunes, i just hang out here sometimes
<iStormy> www.tunes.org has lotsa info
<mithris> hmm okay
<iStormy> more info than you could read in a week
<mithris> yeah..:D thats the problem.. i wanna know more about one specific piece right now..
09:40am
<mithris> noon1 else alive?
10:00am
* Fare/#Tunes is dead, but hush, don't tell anyone
<mithris> fare: could you tell me a little of the state of TUNES?
10:10am
<smkl> mithris: what do you want to know?
<mithris> smkl: well... is there an official TUNES version? or is there only prototypes?
10:20am
<smkl> only prototypes. there will never be "official" versions
<mithris> how far has is the stdlib project?
<smkl> any system that fullfills TUNES requirements is TUNES
<smkl> mithris: nowhere
<mithris> humm.. okay... has any1 started working on it?
<smkl> i don't think so. there is not much point because HLL doesn't exist
<mithris> is any1 worling on the HLL project then?
<mithris> woeking
<mithris> gah..:D working
<smkl> Fare, Tril and BRice
<mithris> how far has they come?
<smkl> there is nothing usable, too much design problems
<mithris> :/
10:30am
<mithris> cya
-:- SignOff mithris: #TUNES (Leaving)
10:40am
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<smoke> hi.
<smkl> hello smoke
<smkl> why are you on #TUNES ?
11:40am
<smoke> smkl: i'm interested in the project
<smoke> smkl: trying to read up what it is about
11:50am
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<smkl> hello ruiner
<ruiner> hi
<abi> hey, ruiner
<ruiner> hi
<ruiner> smkl?
<ruiner> abi has nothing on you yet
12:20pm
<ruiner> ruiner?
<abi> i think ruiner is Nater1464
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12:30pm
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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<ruiner> greetings
01:20pm
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<ruiner> grrrrrr
01:50pm
-:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Fare> hum
02:10pm
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[195.96.122.246])
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<smkl> hello somiador
<somiador> hello!!!!!!!!
-:- SignOff somiador: #TUNES (Leaving)
02:30pm
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...)
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 15 hrs 59 min 23 secs
-:- NetSplit: clarke.openprojects.net split from koontz.openprojects.net [03:20pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [clarke.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net koontz.openprojects.net
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<tcn> hey core, fare, tril..
<Tril> blah
<tcn> what's up?
<abi> hmmm... up is above down
<tcn> haha
<tcn> so is anyone here?
* Tril/#TUNES is present
03:50pm
<tcn> lemme guess, you're trying to fix the IRC logging
<Tril> no what's wrong with it? too many files in one dir?
<tcn> no, it just forgot to start a new file today
-:- ON listings:
* JOIN " TUNES #TUNES * " umode -s NORMAL 0
* MSG " TUNES NEWLOG * " set logfile $2 SILENT 0
* MSG " TUNES PERMLOG * " exec chmod +r $2 SILENT 0
* PUBLIC " * #TUNES * " @activity=1 QUIET 0
* TIMER " %:?0 " baz SILENT 0
* TIMER " *00:00* " exec -msg TUNES date +"newlog %Y.%m%d" SILENT 0
* TIMER " *00:01* " exec -msg TUNES date +"permlog %Y.%m%d" SILENT 0
.......................LOGFILE 1999.0513
* iStormy/#Tunes stretches.
* iStormy/#Tunes dislikes functional languages.
<tcn> what DO you like?
<Tril> would you rather have a broken language?
<iStormy> Tril: i thought that was an amusing choice of names too (c:
<Tril> declarative is ok :)
<Fare> gakuk!
<Tril> tunes will be the first fully functional OS.
<Tril> Fare did you fall asleep or what?
<Tril> you asked me a question and then ...
<Tril> iStormy: the choice of name is not entirely coincidental, functional gurus DO think other languages are broken. (with good reason!!!)
<Fare> no, went for dinner
<Tril> at 4:20 am?
<Fare> oh, you mean yesterday?
<Fare> I guess I fell asleep
<Tril> you said "what is the purpose of this infrastructure?"
<Fare> but was more like 5 am
<Tril> and i was wondering if you read my response
<Tril> i figured.
<Tril> istormy: Maybe you could answer the question, what do you like?
<Tril> istormy: or, what would you like?
<Fare> Tril: there's Fox already as first functional OS
<Fare> I wonder if their code is online...
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<Fare> also the proprietary LISP OSes of old
IRC log ended Fri May 14 15:57:51 1999
-:- Starting logfile 1999.0514
IRC log started Fri May 14 15:58:38 1999
-:- Value of LOG set to ON
<iStormy> Tril: who knows...i find python to be the most usable, but it's still not my dream language. part oof my problem is i don't know anything other than imperative languages. trying to broaden my horizons at the moment by fiddling with other stuff like smalltalk and lisp.
<ruiner> is the most important part of os creation the hardest or easiest?
<Fare> as for the infrastructure, I believe it should be codeveloped with
either practical code or theoretical concerns (or both)
<Fare> ruiner: I can't answer, for I'm not sure I understand the question, and even less that I have enough information to answer if I understood it
<ruiner> well, design is the most important part, but is that harder or easier than actually coding?
<tcn> ruiner: they both tie together.. about the same, I think.
<Tril> tcn: OK I fixed the dumb irc log
<ruiner> ah
04:00pm
<tcn> (what good is a design, if you can't code it?)
<ruiner> what good is being able to code, if you haven't defined the problem and how you're going to go about solving it?
<Tril> ruiner: because the idea of the problem either doesn't fit in your head, or isn't expressible in words
<iStormy> what good is being able to code if you spend all your time writing documents. (c;
<ruiner> heh heh
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<tcn> ruiner: One thing I've learned: Don't try to design everything perfectly before you code it
<ruiner> well written code in a badly designed system is worse than poor code in a well designed system
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<iStormy> tcn: i haven't learned that yet...i'm a perfectionist. )c: i've never finished anything in my life.
<Fare> not even mention of the code on the foxnet server
<_QZ> geez, linux has finished 2 work units and windows is only 30% done with its first unit
<Tril> work unit?
<tcn> rc5?
<Tril> is this that benchmark?
<_QZ> seti@home
<Fare> QZ: same hardware?
<Tril> _QZ the windows one only runs when the screensaver pops up
<ruiner> can anybody explain to me how exokernels are faster than other kernel types?
<tcn> ruiner: are they?
<_QZ> the radio telescope collects 35gig of data per day and breaks it up in 300k work units
<Fare> Hey, my quad AXP21264@700 under Linux is faster than my 386sx16 under WindowsNT!
<ruiner> according to the tunes page
<_QZ> Tril: it also has the option to run full time
<Fare> ruiner: aegis is faster because it merges application and system code into one
<ruiner> ah
<Fare> ruiner: AND it is able to co-optimize them
<_QZ> Fare: linux is on a celeron463 and win98 is also on a celeron463
<ruiner> cripes
<tcn> ruiner: well, a microkernel is slow because it runs separate tasks for each kernel driver
<ruiner> right
<tcn> qz: are the drives the same speed?
<Tril> Fare: how does that compiler work? is it incremental?
<Fare> did you read the glossary entry on microkernels? ;->
<ruiner> how about monolithic kernels?
<_QZ> they are both udma
<ruiner> nope
<Fare> Tril: no, they have domain-specific languages for block device access
<ruiner> I don't really see what slows them down
<tcn> monolithic kernels are just harder to manage
<_QZ> tcn: but it would not be affected by drive speed
<Fare> in which you can code your access patterns as well as your filesystem consistency policies
<_QZ> tcn: the program can keep teh 300k in ram and its all FFT processing
<tcn> qz: oh
<Fare> what's the principle of seti@home?
<tcn> to seek out & destroy new life
<_QZ> win98 has 128meg ram and no apps running, linux has 192meg ram and 30+ apps running
<Fare> QZ: maybe the Win system is doing lotsa MMX<->FPU switches?
<Tril> Fare: Analyze radio signals from space to detect extraterrestrial life
* ruiner/#tunes yawns
<Fare> the question is: what kind of "analysis" could possibly detect extraterrestrial life???
<ruiner> well, I'm out of here....see you later folks
-:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving)
<_QZ> seti@home utilizes the millions of computers at home to help process the data faster
<Fare> doing dummy calculations faster won't lead you anywhere
<_QZ> Starting Gaussian curve-fitting
<_QZ> Starting work for Doppler shift rate -7.571536, FFT length 2048
<tcn> it does FFT's to make the data understandable
<Fare> FFT won't make *any* data understandable
<Fare> I hope they use FFFTW, btw
<Fare> (the Fastest FFT in the West)
<_QZ> http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/faq.html
<tcn> what about the East? Does Russia have a better FFT? ;)
<Fare> (developed by people at MIT, I think, using ad-hoc metaprogramming techniques, IIRC)
<_QZ> Fare: go read that page
<Tril> Agreed fare rtfm
<tcn> I could donate some time on my 486 to SETI :)
<_QZ> hahaha
04:10pm
<_QZ> tcn: windows or linux?
<Tril> all the computers in this lab are already running rc5..
<tcn> hehe
<_QZ> it took 9 hours to process one work unit on a linux celeron463
<tcn> what does rc5 prove?
<_QZ> i calculated it to take 23 hours on my win98 celeron463
<tcn> that RSA ain't that bad after all?
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> all computer at home are already running random text generation, and analyzing the results to see if it's better than Shakespeare...
<AlonzoTG> If I had any internet hours and it worked on win3.11 I'd do it. :(
<AlonzoTG> but for now I have to go.
<_QZ> u dont need internet time
<AlonzoTG> but first: any comments on the specs I published?
<_QZ> u download a 300k work unit and then get off the net
<tcn> try coding it
<AlonzoTG> fare: that'll never work. :(((
<_QZ> when the unit is done it gets another
<Tril> QZ maybe alonzo needs new units sent on disk via snail mail
<_QZ> :)
<Tril> i wonder if I can subscribe to electronic mailing lists by floppy disk..
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<iStormy> afk
<_QZ> this super soaker pen isnt a very good pen to write with
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
04:20pm
<Tril> does redhat call their os "Redhat GNU/Linux"?
<Fare> how that "by floppy disk" ?
<Tril> we could snail mail floppies with the list archives.
<Fare> I remember using a floppy to transmit mail back in the old times before ppp was available at school
<Fare> since I wasn't root to push things in the sendmail queue, I just had elm -s here-scripts
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<Fare> I tried closure. Its rendering engine is impressive. But there's a bug in picture handling, and the user-interface is mostly inexistant, apart from the bare minimal sirvival commands
<water> hi all
<tcn> hey
<Tril> i was wondering when you'd show up.. :)
<tcn> brian?
<water> it took long enough. yes, it's brian.
<Fare> brian!
<tcn> where are ya?
<Fare> I admit I was confused by your arrow paper
<water> ina computer lab on the navy base
<water> fare: really? what about in particular?
<Fare> too much motivational things, and too little technical content
<Fare> I understood a few things you said earlier, but I still don't have the whole picture
<water> ok. what sort of technical points would you need?
* Fare/#Tunes has bought MacLane's "Categories for the Working MAthematician"
<water> ah. i see.
<water> i'm sorry that i didn't spend enough time explaining undeerlying theory.
<Tril> water: No you're not :)
<tcn> man, I have a ways to go before I'm up to your level in math (fare and water)
<Tril> do you agree that KL-Reflection paper is prerequisite for reading the Arrow paper?
<Tril> then I should write that on the web page
<tcn> Tril: good idea.. also mention Cybernetics
<water> tril: yes, although i did cover the basic ideas. KL is actually a pretty common idea in AI research.
<Tril> knowledge representation, yes but reflection?
04:30pm
<Fare> I didn't understand everything in the KLR paper either
<water> tril: well, the reflection part of it is just as new as my own model-level idea.
<Tril> ok, just checkin
* Fare/#Tunes knows a top AI researcher in Reflection, but he's retiring next year, and focusing on using his already reflective system as a tool for higher-level problems, rather than improving it
* water/#tunes is now downloading a new version of BETA and has just update his Squeak.
<water> fare: really?
<tcn> can Squeak save individual programs? (as opposed to the whole image)
<water> tcn: sure, you just export a class (or a set of classes) to a file.
<Fare> tcn: not afaik
<Fare> you may export a class, but then, it won't save the dynamic data, only the stati source, isn't it?
<water> fare: yes
<tcn> will that work for your Arrow thing?
<water> tcn: well, i'm making an set of classes for arrow environments that will be self-contained,
<water> including editors and examples
<water> the biggest hurdle (very small, actually) is implementing graph specifications for lazy evaluation.
04:40pm
<Tril> I just installed cmucl, now trying to get Garnet to run on bespin so I can try it
<Tril> (graphical stuff for lisp)
<water> cool
<water> anyway, there should be some pleasing code by tomorrow late.
<Tril> WTF is #+string ?
<Fare> what relationship is there between your arrow system and category theory, if any?
<Fare> what are arrows meant to represent, to begin with?
<Fare> is there any _exact_ relationship you can draw with something that I might know in theoretical (or practical) CS?
<Fare> Tril: conditional compilation under common lisp
<Fare> Tril: #+toto (foo) will read (foo) iff the compile-time feature toto is defined
<Tril> ok then what is the compile-time feature indicating a linux system? #+linux ?
<Fare> not any that I know
<Tril> it's trying to detect a version
<water> fare: graphs are categories that can reflect, and do not assume relationships among arrows.
<Fare> brice: I'm not sure I understand at all your kind of arrows
<Fare> I understand the basics of category theory
<water> fare: arrows are just objects whose only attributes are two references.
<water> fare: graphs are just 'sets' of arrows.
04:50pm
<tcn> how do you store information (besides relations)?
<water> tcn: my approach is to cast all information in terms of relations (sort of).
<Fare> I've been recommended the book "Category Theory for Computing Science, 2/e " but can't find it at either Prentice Hall or Amazon
<tcn> water: like peano's axioms, right?
<water> tcn: sure.
<Fare> water: are arrows composable, as in cat th?
<Fare> why talk about "arrows" and not "relations", then?
<water> fare: yes, but composition is a predicate, not necessarily a function or operator.
<water> fare: relations (first-order) are non-degenerate graphs.
<Fare> you mean, g o f may have several values?
<Fare> non-degenerate?
<water> fare: or be undefined.
<Fare> be undefined, it can in cat th
<tcn> hehe.. look at this:
<tcn> You can download a binary archive of William Walter Patterson's port of INTERCAL 0.15 for
<tcn> DOS, which finally has the programming language it truly deserves.
<tcn> rofl
<Fare> but cat th mostly assumes usual (deterministic total) functions
<water> fare: yes, but cat th doesn't treat it as a predicate (formula, etc).
<Fare> although its arrows can describe more than that
<Fare> water: cat th has many predicates; it's just that its basic constructs are total deterministic functions
<Fare> is the INTERCAL compiler itself written in INTERCAL?
<water> fare: in the arrow system, the composition object is just that: an object, not a primitive.
<tcn> Fare: I don't want to know
<Fare> suddenly, scp and cvs-over-ssh don't work for me!
<tcn> Fare: works for me (update tunes)
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't understand what's wrong
<Fare> ssh -v shows me it connects; but afterwards, data doesn't pass, or extremely slowly
<Fare> mere ssh works
<Tril> Fare: is this with bespin?
<Fare> yes
<Tril> Fare: The only thing that should affect that is the reverse DNS changed from bespin.cx to bespin.dhs.org.
<Fare> although it looks like other hosts can connect w/ bespin w/o problem
05:00pm
<Fare> but connection *does* complete; it's afterwards that it doesn't work
<tcn> ssh is working fine for me.. check your setup, fare.
<tcn> ssh1, right?
<Tril> Fare: RhostsRsa authentication not available f
<Tril> or connections from unprivileged port.
<Fare> hum. I removed the pcmcia NIC, inserted it back, and now it works
<Fare> do NOT ask me why it works. It just does.
<Tril> Fare: stop using port 64357 and use 1023
<Tril> err. never mind
<Tril> that's probably for different services
<Fare> perhaps the NIC is unhappy with changing from an IP network to another (home, office, school, other school)
<Tril> Fare: I dunno if this is related, but sshd generated a new RSA key 15 minutes ago
<Tril> I think it does that all the time, though
<tcn> maybe it fucked up
<Fare> that shouldn't matter, afaik
<Fare> (not the first time a reset of the pcmcia nic enhances network response)
<Fare> water: what are primitives?
<Fare> are they turing equivalent? can they express the whole logic?
<water> fare: primitives are objects in a language that cannot be effectively identified by language structures.
<water> (btw, please stop pinging me!)
<Fare> afaik, when you write cat th in an algebraic way, you actually have something essentially isomorphic to higher-order typed lambda calculus
<Fare> just why couldn't they be identified by language structures?
<Fare> you can *always* write things in an algebraic fashion
<Fare> even if awkward
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't ping water
* Fare/#Tunes is sleepy
<water> just look at the VM's for our favorite languages.
<Fare> what about them?
05:10pm
<water> they all contain instructions which are "protected" or "necessary".
<Fare> dunno what you mean
<Fare> but they sure contain primitives
<Fare> there is no logic without axioms
<water> their semantics aren't encapsulable by the language.
<Fare> Tril: can you check whtehr you can find the book anywhere?
<Fare> ISBN 0-13-323809-1
<Fare> Michael Barr & Charles Wells
<Fare> Category Theory for Computing Science, 2/e
* water/#tunes is now downloading his favorite old apple-II games.
<Fare> water: no logic w/o axiom
<Fare> that's an unescapable reality. See Goedel's theorem.
<tcn> water: where'd you find them?
<Fare> The failure of Hilbert's dream
<Fare> water: can you get Prisoner II to run?
<water> fare: goedel's theorem is about first-order languages!
<water> fare: i don't have that one.
<Fare> I have a copy, but either it is buggy, or my a2 emulator is
<Tril> fare, looks out of print..
<Fare> water: ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/
<Tril> maybe a used bookstore
<Fare> http://www.asimov.net/apple_II/site/
<water> fare: i'm there
<Fare> used bookstore? 1996!
<Tril> ok I found a used copy
<Tril> want it? $45
<Fare> out of print at amazon.com
<Fare> hum. $45. How many FRF is that? ...
<Fare> well, looks an ok price
<Fare> (expensive, but if the book is good...)
<Fare> maybe I should double-check the recommendation about the book?
<Fare> I've seen *lots* of other titles.
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Please welcome verne.opirc.nu (leiden.nl.eu.opirc.nu) back into the fold, courtesy of Wichert Akkerman and the Leiden University Free Desk Collective :)
!wichert:*! You're very welcome lilo :)
!wichert:*! And online just before I'm leaving on vacation as well...
<Tril> checking currency exchange, does 276.75 FRF sound right?
<Tril> Ive got 6.15 FRF to a dollar
<Fare> sound right
<Fare> ok, let's go for it
05:20pm
<Fare> water: there's a a2 emulator for linux, but I suspect it be buggy, for many games break
<Fare> also, the X mode is broken.
<water> hmm
<Fare> one of the first apps I want for Tunes is an apple2 emulator
<tcn> hehe
<Fare> at least, the first emulator I want, before PIG
<Fare> gotta go to bed.
<tcn> later
<water> by fare
<Fare> any question/comment/explanation?
<Fare> ok. Bye, then!
* Fare/#Tunes is away
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> GOTO-less programming: "COME FROM ..."
<tcn> i find it hard to believe INTERCAL actually exists
* Tril/#TUNES can't order a book for Fare because his barnesandnoble.com password is at home
05:30pm
<tcn> see ya
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<water> sorry, i've been busy downloading mp3's.
<water> it's amazing how much the web changes in half a year!
05:40pm
<Tril> it's amazing how hard it is to make something work when you have no idea what you are doing.
<water> hehe
<water> i have to admit that i'm learning smalltalk nuances the hard way.
06:10pm
* Tril/#TUNES creates a new lisp core (whatever exactly that is)
<water> pardon?
<Tril> cmucl has a 22 megabyte file called lisp.core. I think I just rewrote it.
<Tril> (recreated it with a program)
<water> wow! how large is the program?
<Tril> 36 megs installed
<water> oh.
<Tril> lisp.core (22m) and kernel.core (13m) are most of it.
<Tril> yes! found it! the new lisp core is in my home directory.
<water> i'm confused.
<water> you thought that you lost it, then?
<Tril> I was foolish to expect it to overwrite the system-wide one when I wasn't running as root :)
<water> oh.
<water> well, i've logged into the tunes server.
<water> it's good to be Bash.
06:20pm
-:- ruiner [nate@ppp003.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh2-port190.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hi
<abi> hola, water
<billyboof> whats up everyone...
<water> i'd guess i'd better introduce myself... i'm brian rice.
<Tril> trying to get lisp to go graphical..
<water> i'm doing some downloads, entertaining myself mostly.
<_QZ> tunes would be much better if written in logo, lisp sucks
<water> syntax-wise, i suppose so
<water> but then syntax for lisp is simple to change.
06:30pm
<water> is everyone pre-occupied?
<Tril> well..
<billyboof> a bit... i'm talking to people on efnet right now
<water> ok
<Tril> No
<Tril> i'm in this irc channel because i will respond to real people sooner than what I'm doing in other windows
<Tril> if you have something you want to talk about, i'm avaialble
<water> ok. i was just confused about the relationships in this channel.
<Tril> I noticed Fare and QZ, when around, will answer intermittently. Like every 10 minutes or so.
<Tril> I have a habit of answering Irc immediately
<water> ok.
<water> btw, i'm checking out the new GNU projects... i noticed pliant, among others.
<_QZ> :)
<Tril> THIS WILL WORK THIS TIME
<water> pardon?
<Tril> water: yes, pliant looks interesting. Maybe someday someone will look at it..
<Tril> i'm yelling at lisp, don't mind me
<_QZ> pliant sucked
<water> oh. ok.
<water> qz: why?
<Tril> It has the nerve to require installation in /pliant, on any system.
<_QZ> ya
<Tril> as if it were the next super-OS or something :)
<_QZ> it says it can be installed in /usr/local/pliant, but wouldnt
<Tril> QZ: It can, but you need a symlink /pliant pointing to wherever you installed it.
<_QZ> a symlink fixes all that though :)
<water> well, a configuration script can indicate an arrogant author (i wouldn't know about that ;), but what about the design itself?
<Tril> If it says it can be installed elsewhere, it's referring to the symlink solution.
<billyboof> Tril: i got the buddy list thing working... kinda different from unix and from what i was saying before...
<Tril> water: I balked because of the distribution terms. Like most other software I investigate. I'm as bad as RMS
<_QZ> pliant wouldnt run after i spent an hour or so installing it
<Tril> plus it has its own syntax , why do I need to learn another syntax..
<water> hmm
<Tril> the web page is very interesting though
<water> i've seen the web site.
<water> it has some interesting philosophy, but i don't buy it.
<Tril> I had it installed before I upgraded to debian.
<_QZ> Tril: did u get the interpreter to work?
<Tril> I think it worked, but I didn't know what to do with it. It compiled itself to 3 or 4 different debug levels, then I let it be
<billyboof> does anyone know how to use DMA to read a harddrive
<_QZ> when i run th interpreter it sits for several minutes before giving a crap load of errors
06:40pm
<_QZ> u can type while its doing whatever, but it doent do anything
<Tril> water: The main concept is this: When you "depend on" a module, that module gets permission to metaprogram you to ensure that you interoperate with it in the way it desires.
<water> bill: sorry, no.
<_QZ> billyboof: i know howto use dma to read a floppy if that helps
<billyboof> qz: yes actually, any kind of disk io would make me happy at the moment... :)
<water> is module-dependence subject to meta-programming as well?
<_QZ> goto http://borg.qzx.com/infoz
<_QZ> i think its in storage/ or soemthing like that
<billyboof> thanks
<Tril> water: when you create a module, you are really extending the language. I dont know if that answers the question.
<_QZ> yer looking for 13 txt files that i scanned from a book
<water> i don't know if that answers the question either.
<water> it sounds like modules describe types.
<water> but then the module system itself is a type system.
<billyboof> qz: not dma.html?
<_QZ> no
<water> maybe if it were abstract, not concrete...
<_QZ> http://borg.qzx.com/infoz/Mass_Storage/floppy/
<billyboof> yep... going in there right now...
<water> no, it sounds too much like Modula: a glut of information to describe something with relatively low utility.
<Tril> now it's doing something..
<water> what is? lisp?
<Tril> yes, it's compiling garnet. Lots of warnings, though.
06:50pm
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@client-151-200-126-38.bellatlantic.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hi
<Tril> [GC completed with 24,648,664 bytes retained and -8,176 bytes freed.]
<Tril> sounds bad to free a negative amount..
<water> hehe
<AlonzoTG> U are B Rice right?
<AlonzoTG> I am payin by the our so I am going to be terse...
<water> yes
<water> likewise
<water> ;)
<Tril> ?
<water> (when have i ever been terse?)
<AlonzoTG> I got a kopy of GEB in hopes that it will elucidate your paper...
<water> oh
<Tril> oh, I thought you were paying by the hour, too. makes no sense.
<AlonzoTG> water: get my prototype specs?
<AlonzoTG> think an arrows module is fesable?
<water> were those the ones for a logic system to find Tunes?
<Tril> no that's iepos.
<AlonzoTG> no, those specs were my own personal OS specs...
<water> no, i haven't.
<water> i can get them in a second, though. where are they?
<water> tril: would it be wise for me to maintain a sub-project?
<Tril> water: sure. No one else is,but don't let that stop you!
<Tril> actually we do need to put tcn in charge of LLL, and me in charge of HLL, or something
<Tril> any maintenance at all is welcome
<water> what does that leave me? meta-translator? or HLL-?
<Tril> oh, you didnt have a particular one in mind?
<water> i suppose that review would help
<billyboof> bbl
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
<water> by, billy
<Tril> core claimed to be working on review. so talk to him if you want to help..
<water> ok
07:00pm
<Tril> ultima never officially said he was not maintaining it, though. He just disappeared.
<Tril> maybe with some kind of vote according to our charter, we could declare him ex-maintainer
<water> hmm.
<water> actually, i should probably work with a smaller part of the project.
<AlonzoTG> water: the specs I am referring to are mentioned in the topic for this channel...
<Tril> I see no topic
<AlonzoTG> I am almost out of thyme. :((((
<water> oh. ok.
<Tril> someone reset the topic
<Tril> with atg's specs url in it
<water> i'll take a look at them, ok?
-:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-019.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> sure.
<water> hi
<abi> hey, water
<water> hi
* Tril/#TUNES introduces Beholder and water to each other - Pat Wendorf meet Brian Rice and vice versa.
<Beholder> Hey :)
<AlonzoTG> beholder...
<Tril> Brian was just asking about maintaining a subproject. no one has done that in a long time :)
<AlonzoTG> man I want to talk to you but I have to go because eye am paying by the our. :((((
<Tril> ATG cant you just get some free hours from aol or something for one month?
<water> ok, alonzo. i'll be back
<Tril> Alonzo: When do you stop paying by the hour?
<water> beholder: still angry?
<Beholder> Angry at what?
<Tril> angry?
<AlonzoTG> I'll get a new ISP in a few dayze. :(((
<AlonzoTG> but eye kan't wait that long.
<AlonzoTG> shoot...
<water> i remember this heated discussion about zen and arrows or something
<Tril> private email I take it
<Beholder> That was a while back :)
<water> yes
<AlonzoTG> my telephone number is 703-893-7749 I'll set up a modem chat server... ferst person on gets to chat!
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<water> by, alonzo.
<Tril> hmm, be nice if I had control of a dialout modem I could use to call him and connect him to the net :)
<water> yes, you could.
<Tril> trying to get that, would risk getting kicked out of school.
<Tril> I dont wanna start hacking . I'm easily addicted to things.
<_QZ> hmm, why would anyone want to chat with atg
<water> well, what's on beholder's mind? i don't get much interaction with (him?).
<Beholder> Water: I didn't even think you got the message... it came back to me saying "undeliverable"?
<water> oh. that happens all the time, on board a ship. it always arrives.
<_QZ> do u ever get gang raped on the ship? :)
<water> it's a function of satellite connection protocols. very hack-ish.
<Beholder> My mind isn't all that exciting at the moment... I'm learning a distributed control system for Atlantic Packaging (paper company) not many OS thoughts other than Measurex System is crap
<Tril> love those androgynous names like PAT eh?
07:10pm
<Beholder> I'm Male!!! :)
<water> ok. you know, i get a lot of ideas about cybernetics from studying the ship's patterns.
<water> pat: sorry.
<Beholder> Hehe :) No problem...
<water> (patterns = space-time-statespace topology)
<Tril> so let's not stop our conversation.. what about the subprojects?
<Beholder> Brian: I guess you're not on a ship at the moment?
<water> beh: right.
<water> tril: not sure.
<water> tril: i'd like to pick up something, but my view on things is slanted, and i have the arrow prototype and papers to work on.
<Tril> water: Don't worry about it. IMO the code should be worked on before the web page. (I've said before)
<water> fair enough.
<Tril> wateR: did you get the url to alonzo's specs?
<water> tril: yes, and i have them on a zip disk now.
<water> tril: meet in seattle again?
<Beholder> Haven't read the updated one yet, is it interesting? (Alonzo's Doc)
<Tril> water: well it costs me money.. but sure. whatd'ya wanna talk about?
<water> nevermind
<water> oops. gotta go.
<Tril> bye!
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Beholder> Nice talking to you Brian, hope to talk more later
<Beholder> damn
<Tril> type faster
<Tril> Just a little while ago, I was too slow typing to Fare before he left..
<Beholder> I think I really chewed him out in that mail I sent him.... I hope he's not bitter
<Beholder> He seems much calmer when he's talking, then when he's mailing ;)
07:20pm
<Tril> I don't know about him, but implementing something certainly makes me more satisfied. I hope it helps him, too.
<Beholder> BTW: I notice a lot of talk about Squeak in the Tunes list, is it the same as smalltalk?
<Tril> check it out. What happened is the smalltalk people left Xerox and went to Disney and now they are working on Squeak.
<Tril> some of the main smalltalk people.
<Tril> It's basically the latest development in the smalltalk world, yes.
<Tril> it includes smalltalk interpreter/compiler, with a GUI and a store, networking I think too
<Tril> duh, yes it does networking
<Beholder> Could it replace something like Java (I assume it's platform-neutral code?)
<_QZ> ok u all must pray for the jazz tonight
07:30pm
<Beholder> Jazz what?
<Tril> utah jazz , NBA
<Tril> yeeah the sonics suck, and im supposed to like them. I'm not into sports.
-:- iStormy_ [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- iStormy_ is now known as iStormy
<_QZ> well i was never into watching sports until my home team starting winning. now i gotta support them
<Tril> heh
<_QZ> jordan stood in their way the past two years and now he is gone so they can take the title
<Beholder> I live in Canada... I should say "Go Raptors"... but... I don't think basketball is all that popular here :)
<_QZ> Tril: do u like fighting?
<_QZ> watching fighting
07:40pm
<Tril> well does Xena count?
<Tril> Highlander?
<_QZ> whatever
<Beholder> Heheh... yea both shows are cool :) (actually I don't like the new ones... just the old ones :)
<_QZ> there has been alot of fighting in the last 2 games
<_QZ> lotsa blood
<Beholder> Unless it's martial arts (good ones) It's not interesting fighting...
<_QZ> well malone grabbed divacs arm and pulled him infront and then brought his knee up into divacs chest and flipped his ass over
<_QZ> stockton kneed divac in the head and busted his face open
<_QZ> games on
07:50pm
<Tril> hmm looks like I forgot to set Bespin's time
<Tril> wait, this is not bespin. hehe
<Tril> no that was a bug in bitchx
<Tril> didnt update the status bar for a few hours!
<Beholder> Hehe... I finally got my Linux machine working well :) KDE is nice, but memory hog! :)
<Tril> yes
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh2-port190.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<iStormy> gs sucks
<iStormy> i can't get anything readable no matter what i do
<Tril> I'm in gv right now. It's nice (better than ghostview)
<Tril> of course i never print anything because everything is on european A4 paper and doesnt work in the US
<Tril> plus why bother printing something if I'm only going to read it once?
08:10pm
<iStormy> i don't wanna print it, i just wanna read it
<Tril> try gv
<Tril> what distro do you have?
<iStormy> freebsd
<iStormy> cd /usr/ports/print/gv; make install
<iStormy> all there is to it
<Tril> you got it already ok :)
<iStormy> it downloads it, configures it, and compiles it for me.
<Tril> downloads?
<iStormy> freebsd package manager is disk-based...it keeps all the patches on hand, and when you command it to make, it then downloads the source
<iStormy> there are 1700 ports under /usr/ports, and gv is in the print section, so i just cd there and type make and it installs it
<iStormy> source based packages rather than binary, like linux
<Tril> gotta go :)
<Tril> bye
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<iStormy> woops, it needs xawd3d
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (Read error to billyboof[nrwc-sh2-port190.snet.net]: No route to host)
08:20pm
<iStormy> my, gv is much better
<Beholder> Gotta leave now, later guys :)
-:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-019.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes []
08:40pm
<iStormy> hi there, irc log
10:40pm
-:- ruiner [nate@ppp427.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<iStormy> are there any languages with a stack-based syntax
10:50pm
<_QZ> ahhhh YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
<_QZ> da jazz brought it on home
<iStormy> hi
<abi> hoy, iStormy
<_QZ> stockton is da man
11:00pm
<ruiner> I can't believe it...
<ruiner> I got kicked and banned for a room, and all I did was say hello
11:10pm
<iStormy> that's happened to me, without me saying anything, because i joined #freebsd while logged onto a linux box
<ruiner> heh heh
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason)
<ruiner> istormy?
<ruiner> alonzotg?
<abi> i think alonzotg is not their agent.
<ruiner> heh heh
11:20pm
<_QZ> abi: alonzo
<abi> hooked on phonics worked for me and it can work for alonzo too!!
<ruiner> lmao
11:30pm
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
-:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0515
IRC log ended Sat May 15 00:00:01 1999