IRC log started Wed May 19 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0519
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<capacho> contestame
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04:40am
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<Fare> hi
<abi> salut, Fare
<Fare> abi: shuddup, bitch!
<Fare> joxe: howdy?
<Joxe> allrite and you all?
<Joxe> where r u from?
<Fare> I'm from planet Earth
<Fare> somewhere down the galaxy
<Fare> I happen to have born near Paris, France, where I still live.
06:10am
<Joxe> so you are  a frenchman, 
<Joxe> i,m hungarian
<Fare> my passport says I'm french.
<Fare> My mother was born vietnamese, tho
<Joxe> but...?
<Fare> and she rejects both french nationality and vietnamese (communist) nationality
<Joxe> ah.. so what nationality she has?
<Fare> none
<Fare> she's not even a refugee
<Fare> she just plain rejects the tutorship of either the french or vietnamese (or any other) government.
<Fare> so she's a law-abiding non-citizen.
06:20am
<Joxe> can she work?
<Fare> yes and no
<Joxe> i understand ;)
<Joxe> and what do you do?
<Fare> she was fired from the museum where she worked as a curator, because she wasn't french
<Fare> I'm a researcher and dreamer in computer science
<Joxe> what dyou research?
<Fare> see the TUNES project http://www.tunes.org
<Fare> I want to build a universal computer architecture
<Fare> universal with respect to the software that can be expressed in it,
<Joxe> and are you onthe right way towards it?
<Fare> as opposed to software that can be implemented in it
<Fare> yes and no
<Fare> no one's remotely a rival to us
<Fare> but we don't have a productive organization
<Joxe> this universal means that something like the web using java?
<Fare> not at all
<Fare> it means that you can express directly into the system the arbitrary interaction constraints that you want the system to enforce between programs
<Joxe> or something globally "platform independent"
<Fare> as opposed to implementing programs and praying so that other components fulfill the constraints
<Fare> platform independence will be a side effect of universality
<Joxe> im afraid i don't reaaly understand computing that deep  . :)
<Fare> what is your job?
<Joxe> ok than i kind if have a slight glue
<Joxe> Im a marketing director at a webdesign, webmarketing company
<Fare> well, I hope that my system will replace the web, but it won't be before a few years at best
06:30am
<Fare> one idea is to focus on high-level design, and have the system dynamically negociate an optimized low-level protocol
<Fare> the fact that you can define high-level constraints also means that security problems will be greatly reduced as compared to today's web
<Joxe> i might understand it in hungarian (not sure) but i don't in english, i'm affraid, but to assume,
<Fare> I'm sorry I can't speak hungarian.
<Joxe> the whole network of computers will be like if everyone used linux eg.
<Joxe> but can install programs of NT, or mac, or unix
<Joxe> ok
<Fare> I'm sorry, I've got to go get the train.
* Fare/#Tunes is away (journeying by train)
<Fare> bye!
<Joxe> my boss and the others are program designer mathematicians, so they would understand, i'll send them the url
<Joxe> bye
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06:40am
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!jcl:*! zheng.openprojects.net
!wildfire:*! is going down?
!netgod:*! thats my guess
!beavix:*! like a bad pornstar..
!Glitch:*! Oh, really?  ;)
!wildfire:*! beavix has experience in that area it seems
!jcl:*! testing 123
!jcl:*! zheng.openprojects.net is back up. Thank you.
!netgod:*! glad thats over  :-)
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<tcn> hey
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<tcn> howdy
<abi> bonjour, tcn
<tcn> what's up winemaker?
<Winemaker> same ole, you?
<tcn> not much
08:30am
<Winemaker> whats this room about?
<tcn> Tunes.. it's an operating system/programming language project
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08:40am
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<tcn> hey hcf
<hcf> hoy tcn
09:20am
<hcf> sup?
09:30am
<tcn> done with college
09:40am
<tcn> later
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
09:50am
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<AlonzoTG> om
<hcf> ra
10:40am
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-:- SignOff McFish: #TUNES (Time to die everybody... c'mon all together.....)
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations tcn!" :-)
<tcn> hey
<tcn> u really there?
<tcn> I thought you were paying by the hour
<AlonzoTG> got new ISP
<tcn> oh yeah
<tcn> local one?
<AlonzoTG> yepers...
<AlonzoTG> first my parents wanted ATT but their telephone treez pissed me off...
<tcn> heh
<AlonzoTG> they wanted me to install softwarez....
<tcn> your ping is pretty good
<AlonzoTG> =)
<tcn> wonder what the route is..
<tcn> wow.. 17 hops
<tcn> damn the net is getting big
<tcn> heh.. 10 of those were on the digex backbone
<AlonzoTG> digix = ?
11:10am
<tcn> it's one of the "ISP's ISPs"
<tcn> they have super-high-speed lines all over the country (world?)
<AlonzoTG> yes.
<AlonzoTG> I'm with starpower. =)
<tcn> both our ISP's are on digex.. mine's on 2 other backbones as well.. so it's really reliable
<tcn> but my ISP's mailserver is a Mac, so it's slow & crappy 
<tcn> heh
<tcn> From: Alan Grimes <alangrimes@starpower.net>
<tcn> Reply-To: ogrimes@bellatlantic.net
<tcn> is that a mistake?
<AlonzoTG> oops!
<AlonzoTG> lemme see if I kan fiks that!
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<tcn> hey, what's up?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations glide!" :-)
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11:20am
<AlonzoTG> y0
<AlonzoTG> comments on my specs?
11:30am
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[victor(las@BE-174-LASP-X3.red.retevision.es)] hola tunes
<AlonzoTG> om
* AlonzoTG/#tunes slaps victor around a bit with a large trout
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12:10pm
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<AlonzoTG> om
01:50pm
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<HickServ> hello
03:40pm
<HickServ> :(
03:50pm
-:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250098.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> hey folks
<HickServ> hello
<tcn> hey, what's up?
<tcn> working on tunes now?
<HickServ> i guess im gonna join the project
<HickServ> mabye the LLL
<tcn> cool
<HickServ> but i need to leanr FORTH ;)
<tcn> i'm working on LLL too
<tcn> you know assembly?
<HickServ> of course
04:20pm
<tcn> ever use reverse polish notation?
<HickServ> how far along is the subproject so far?
<HickServ> no
<tcn> forth is an RPN language
<tcn> instead of saying 2+4 you say 2 4 +
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> hmmmm
<HickServ> i'd think it better to use 2+4
<tcn> that's what most of us are used to
<tcn> mithris wants to write an assembler that uses that syntax..
<HickServ> what do you think about it?
<tcn> ie, you say "eax=eax+esi" instead of "add eax, esi"
<HickServ> hmmmm
<HickServ> well it might be ok with assembler
<HickServ> but i  don't think with the LLL
<tcn> yeah, forth is really simple :)
<HickServ> so Fare wants it like forth?
<tcn> i've written about 25k of source for Forth
<tcn> Fare likes Scheme best
<tcn> A scheme compiler is almost as easy to write as a forth compiler
<HickServ> my knowledge of languages is restricted to C/C++/asm/java
<HickServ> im learning forth now
<HickServ> what's scheme like?
<tcn> like LISP :)
<tcn> (+ 2 3 6 8)
<tcn> 19
<HickServ> unfortunatly i don't know lisp ;(
<tcn> it works like this: (<function> <argument> <argument> ...)
<HickServ> i see
<HickServ> does he really want the lll like that though?
<tcn> I think it would work fine
<HickServ> sure
<HickServ> ok
<tcn> say, I haven't look at the project list in a long time
04:30pm
<tcn> wow.. we've almost completed some of these projects :)
<HickServ> which ones?
<tcn> LLL and i386
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> well um
<HickServ> that means there isn't much to be done with the LLL?
<tcn> we haven't even started the Scheme compiler
<HickServ> be a wee bit more consise
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> ok,
<HickServ> it says the LLL project is still in the draft process
<tcn> that's old :)
<HickServ> hmmmmm
<HickServ> i wish i got in early
<HickServ> where can i talk to all the people involved?
<tcn> are you on the mailing list?
<HickServ> the big one
<HickServ> is there an LLL one?
<tcn> yeah, join tunes-lll
<tcn> we'll use that to talk about retro, clementine, other actual "prototype" stuff
<HickServ> do we have any working source code yet for the lll
04:40pm
<tcn> for Forth, yes
<tcn> working, but not complete
<HickServ> oh
<tcn> let's finish it
<tcn> :)
<HickServ> why are you guys writng compilers for other languages?
<tcn> as opposed to HLL?
<HickServ> no for forth and scheme?
<tcn> well.. asm will only get you so far
<HickServ> oh so you're writng compilers to write a compiler?
<tcn> Forth is also a nice user interface
<abi> okay, tcn.
<tcn> aargh
<HickServ> ???
<tcn> abi, what are you?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik
<tcn> h: ignore abi :)
<HickServ> uh huh
<HickServ> interesting
<HickServ> back to the lll
<HickServ> so are you writing a forth compiler to write a lll compiler in?
<tcn> forth could be the LLL
<HickServ> um
<tcn> the idea is, we're gonna use the LLL to build a high-level OS & language, then ditch LLL
<HickServ> hmmmmmm
<HickServ> i'd just think it be better to write your own
<HickServ> i guess it might be ok though
<HickServ> so far forth seems pretty nice
<tcn> something with infix syntax (the usual a=b+c syntax) might be nice
<tcn> but the whole point of using forth or scheme is, they're easy to implement
<tcn> so we don't waste lots of time writing something we'll just throw away later.
<HickServ> how many words in the dictionary are in our compiler?
<tcn> hang on
<tcn> 70-80
<HickServ> i really would of liked to get in earlier on this project ;|
<tcn> oh there's plenty to do
<tcn> have a look at my Retro page
<tcn> http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro.html
04:50pm
<tcn> also, Emmanuel Marty (aka Core) is writing an OS called Clementine.. but he hasn't been able to release code publicly yet
<tcn> he's been writing it as part of his work
<HickServ> does retro have anything to do with tunes?
<tcn> yeah, we can use retro to build tunes
<HickServ> is retro based around the no-kernel idea?
<tcn> I just call retro "mine" to avoid the bureaucracy of tunes :)
<tcn> I get more work done that way
<tcn> no-kernel...? that's a fuzzy concept..
<tcn> there will always be some sort of core... in other words, a kernel.
<HickServ> hmmmm
<HickServ> i have a great kernel idea
<HickServ> however...
<tcn> shoot
<HickServ> i'll keep it to myself for a while ;)
<HickServ> i'm working on it still
<tcn> oh ok
<tcn> I thought you were gonna say you hoped to get rich off it
<tcn> heheh
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<tcn> like this guy :)
<HickServ> hehehe
<tcn> what's up qz?
<HickServ> QZ has got it straight
<HickServ> make money and make it fast
05:00pm
<HickServ> it's just im noticing certain...well faults in the tunes project
<tcn> hehe
<HickServ> contradictions and oxy morons such as  bureaucracy of tunes
<tcn> just read the mailing list archives.. you'll see :)
<tcn> it seems like nothing ever gets done in tunes, because people are always arguing, shooting each other down
<tcn> or just talking, and never _doing_
<HickServ> that's why i think i'll just stick to my own os
<tcn> the research Tunes has done is pretty impressive though
<HickServ> i saw that
<tcn> it's pretty unique among 'new os' projects
-:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.128.124] has joined #tunes
<carlito> hello
<tcn> hey carlito.. no I haven't seen him :)
<carlito> has anyone seen ruiner......lol
<carlito> thanks tcn
<carlito> how did you guess?
<tcn> u ask every day
<carlito> :)
<carlito> I just came back from Star Wars
<tcn> he dropped off the earth
<HickServ> how dare you version me!!!
<carlito> I think so
<HickServ> j/k
<HickServ> yeah i know im on winbloze
<tcn> heheh
<HickServ> it ain't my computer
<carlito> That was a great movie by the way
<carlito> I'm thinking I'm going to go see it 4-6 more times
<tcn> ut oh :)
<carlito> tcn: why "ut oh"?
<tcn> not another star trek vs. star wars thing..
<carlito> didn't know there was a war
<carlito> thought star wars won
<tcn> I saw the touched-up star wars yesterday
<carlito> ah...
<tcn> can't say I care for computer graphics
<carlito> I ment I just saw the "new" star wars...episode I
<carlito> sorry to hear you say thtat
<tcn> lots of people seem to think it looks real though
<tcn> it's just me
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<carlito> I thought it looked pretty real
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<carlito> but anyways, I was just making my rounds.
<carlito> if you see him tell him the usual...check his e-mail
<tcn> you a friend of his from school?
<carlito> thanks again tcn...one day his body will turn up
<carlito> yeah
<carlito> we went to high school together
<carlito> after that we saw very little of each other
<carlito> he moved
<carlito> and now he's hard to even get on the phone
<carlito> and he doesn't even have a job!
<carlito> but anyways...I'm going to eat dinner now.
<tcn> was he in college?
<carlito> thanks again tcn
<carlito> he is
<carlito> he's going to a tech school
<tcn> maybe the semester just ended
<carlito> yeah...he's got finals this week
<tcn> same here :)
<carlito> me too!!!
<tcn> that's why you ain't seen him
<carlito> what a coincidence
<tcn> anyway, enjoy dinner
<carlito> yeah.
<carlito> thanks
<carlito> enjoy your next meal :)
05:10pm
<carlito> bye
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<HickServ> oh dear
<HickServ> i must put together some people for my project
<HickServ> hmmmm forth is an oldy but goody :)
<tcn> you could work on Retro if you don't mind someone else running the show :)
<HickServ> well
<HickServ> what could i do?
<tcn> it's not bureaucratic :)
!xing.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lu.openprojects.net 8005 from ^lilo
!wang.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lu.openprojects.net 8005 from ^lilo
<tcn> there's still assembly code to write
<HickServ> um
<HickServ> i don't think i'd be too interested
<HickServ> i'd like to find fresh project or get people together for my own
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> every man for himself!
<HickServ> um
<HickServ> whatever ;)
<tcn> well, write a small but working OS, and copyleft it. You'll get helpers..
05:20pm
<tcn> if you wanna make money off it, you won't get help unless you pay them :)
<HickServ> im gonna help AlonzoTG with his OS 
<HickServ> if he wants me to
<tcn> yeah, he'd appreciate some help
<HickServ> hes taking a pretty good approach to it though
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<HickServ> hey billy what up g?
<billyboof> umm
<billyboof> nothin my nigga
<HickServ> dat be coo
<billyboof> sorry
<billyboof> i couldn't resist... :P
<billyboof> whats up hick
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> not much
<billyboof> anyways enough of that..
<HickServ> coden kerenls for da man
<HickServ> kerels
<HickServ> ah!
<HickServ> kernels
<billyboof> hmm... i didn't know you were coding for me!
* billyboof/#tunes is the man
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> sorry no
<HickServ> i need to ask you another question
<HickServ> !!!
<billyboof> ahhaha... shoot
<HickServ> what is the best way to pass messages to a kernel?
<billyboof> haven't worked that out yet...
<HickServ> have you any knowledge of how it is usually done?
<tcn> depends how big the messages are
<tcn> also depends on the processor (386, 68000, ARM, MIPS... all kinda different)
<HickServ> i386
<tcn> you can pass parameters on the stack..
<tcn> or pass a pointer to a memory buffer
<_QZ> any1 seen star wars yet?
<tcn> qz: carlito did
<HickServ> ow never look at neon orange poster board
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<HickServ> my blooody eyes are killing me!!!
<HickServ> hey alonzo
<AlonzoTG> y0
05:30pm
<HickServ> i decided id be happy to help you with your os if you'd like me to
<HickServ> only if you think me knowledgeable enough
<_QZ> HickServ: u can help me
<HickServ> aren't you done?
<HickServ> or close
<_QZ> no
<billyboof> hick: never done... only closer :)
<HickServ> i see
<HickServ> well uh sure
<HickServ> i need the experience
<HickServ> what do you need done?
<billyboof> me?
<abi> you are a fucking god
<_QZ> tcp/ip stack
<billyboof> hahahah
<billyboof> that rules
<HickServ> i don't know anything about tcp/ip :(
<_QZ> billyboof: abi thinks highly of u
<billyboof> :)
<HickServ> anything else QZ?
<_QZ> HickServ: u could write gfx drivers for all the cards
<_QZ> sound?
<_QZ> ethernet?
<tcn> SCSI?
<abi> hmmm... SCSI is really one completely different driver per chipset.
<tcn> IDE?
<abi> rumour has it IDE is simpler -- only one "chipset"
<HickServ> god your talking about stuff i know nothing about
<tcn> shut up abi
<HickServ> i only really know kerenl desing
<HickServ> gotta go
<tcn> later
<_QZ> ok
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving)
<_QZ> hey why did he leave?
<tcn> qz: maybe he ate at the college cafeteria
<_QZ> hehe
<_QZ> roach coach
05:40pm
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<Malawi> Hi to everyone!
* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Malawi!" :-)
<Malawi> This is Fernando from Spain but actually I'm writing from Boston!
<tcn> hey
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<tcn> all the action is in #f-cpu now :)
<Malawi> Thanks!
<tcn> hey you should visit l0pht :)
<Malawi> How you doing today!
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<tcn> what's up beh?
<tcn> done with college?
<Beholder> Nope, gotta go back for another semester, but it's summer vacation I guess :)  
<tcn> now we can get something done
<Beholder> Hope so, what's on the agenda?
<tcn> for me, lots of work on Retro.. get a Persistent Store up and running
<Beholder> That sounds interesting.  How are you going to do it? 
<tcn> ahh, let's not get into that.. i'd rather do it than talk about it
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<Beholder> Sounds good :)
<HickServ> :)))
<Beholder> Hey Hick
<HickServ> hello
<abi> hi, HickServ
<HickServ> hey could someone refer me to a good page on driver writing
06:00pm
<AlonzoTG> om 
<HickServ> hey abi
<HickServ> he beholder
<AlonzoTG> anyone still on unios@onelist.com list?
<HickServ> hey Alonzo
<Beholder> Yes, I haven't cancled the list yet
<AlonzoTG> I sent a message to it today...
<Beholder> Really?  I'll go take it down now.
<tcn> HickServ: QZ has lots of hardware docs
<HickServ> ok
<AlonzoTG> I guess I'll have to forward the thing to the new list...
<HickServ> i wanna write drivers for him but device drivers aren't my cup 'o tea
<tcn> also, find the PC-GPE (game programmer's encyclopedia).. and Intel's 80386 manual
<tcn> HickServ: what is?
<Beholder> I think I sent a message that I was going to take down the list sometime in March... hehe... didn't think anyone would ever use it again.
<HickServ> actually not much to do with os design
<HickServ> im really into ai
<tcn> oh, cool
<billyboof> QZ: how much info do you have on hardware shit?
<tcn> you should write some AI stuff for Brix, Retro, etc..
<HickServ> im heavily into a major ai project right now im afraid
<HickServ> but i could do some stuff
<AlonzoTG> read Godel Escher Bach?
<HickServ> me?
<abi> you are the same
<tcn> what do you think of abi's AI? :)
<tcn> AS
<tcn> no Artificial Idiocy
<HickServ> tis ok
<tcn> ;)
<tcn> Let's start a repository of hardware docs on tunes.org
<tcn> QZ was gonna upload all his stuff to get it started
06:10pm
<HickServ> brb (going to play some Ice Hockey on that good old NES)
<Beholder> That game was cool :)
<Beholder> unios@onelist.com is gone...
<AlonzoTG> =\
<Beholder> ... but for some reason I cant get rid of my user profile at OneList... damn.
<AlonzoTG> heh
<AlonzoTG> I wish egroups would send the confirm message to my new address!!!
<Beholder> Why a new address?
<Beholder> Change ISP?
<AlonzoTG> yep
<AlonzoTG> new ISP...
<Beholder> Cable? DSL?
<billyboof> i'll bbl... talk to you guys later
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
<AlonzoTG> dialup
<AlonzoTG> nothing beats a good old fassioned 28.8 dalup connection! 
<AlonzoTG> =)
<Beholder> I can one up you... 33.6 dialup :)   
<tcn> yeah, 28.8 is fast, as long as the connections is good
<tcn> ok I'm 31.2 :)
<Beholder> I lied too... 31.2 also :) 
<tcn> I've always been kinda suspicious of cable
<Beholder> Why, scared of LAN's ;)
<AlonzoTG> I have a 33.6 modem....
<tcn> try putting 5000 people on one LAN
<tcn> that's what worries me
<Beholder> Hmm...  it's segmented.  Only your neighbours are really on your lan
<tcn> right
06:20pm
<tcn> but if a lan ain't designed well, it'll be slow
<HickServ> back
<tcn> the whole cable modem system in my town went out for 3 weeks this winter
<tcn> and this is about the oldest cable modem system in the country :)
<Beholder> The reason I don't get cable here, is the price...  I only live here for 4 months and they don't rent the modem...  it's a $450 (CDN) purchase... and it doesn't work where I spend the rest of the year
<tcn> heh.. ouch
<HickServ> oh dear
<Beholder> I know... if they rented the modems.... maybe
<tcn> the price ain't bad here.. less than the cost of a phone line & dialup ISP..
<HickServ> the pain in my eyes went away :)))
<Beholder> Really?  how much is it TCN?
<tcn> $35 US, roughly
<tcn> u can't trust time warner thoguh
<Beholder> Ahh... Third class american cable system :)  
<HickServ> where are ya Beholder?
<Beholder> Canada... actually our cable system ain't perfect either
<HickServ> ah yes canadians
<HickServ> funny people you are
<HickServ> funny in a good way that is
<Beholder> What?!  How so?
<Beholder> I find we are quite dull :)
<HickServ> oh i know lots of canadians
<HickServ> if only a canadian and australians would breed; the ultimate super race
<tcn> haha
<HickServ> canadian law is wacked out too
<tcn> hey I gotta go chill out, listen to some music..
<tcn> see ya all
<HickServ> it's like the law against cracking is steeling electricity
<HickServ> oh'bye
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<HickServ> :|
<HickServ> and the depression ensues
<Beholder> I'm still here
<HickServ> :)))
06:30pm
<HickServ> seems like UniOS is the big thing lately
<Beholder> Canada is the first country in the world to say:  "We will not even attempt to regulate the content or providership of the internet"
<Beholder> The UniOS mailing list has been quite slow lately :(
<HickServ> YES!
<HickServ> i shall move to canda
<HickServ> canada
<HickServ> not
<HickServ> hehehe
<Beholder> Hehe... still piracy laws!   But my friend from Chile assures me there is no such laws down there :)
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> viva
<Beholder> Where are you from Hick?
<HickServ> California in the US
<Beholder> Hehehe... I'm on another server trying to convince people that California is bad for using ".ca" for their sites... ".ca" is the international domain extention for Canada...  poor misguided americans... hehehe
<HickServ> yeah my school uses .ca :)
<Beholder> Pisses me off...  
<Beholder> :)
<HickServ> have you seen the kernel.org mirror list
<HickServ> they have everything from the vatican to anarctica
<HickServ> it's like .va or somthing
<Beholder> Cool :)  I've downloaded from them, but only from the primary
<Beholder> So how much do American's know about Canada?
<HickServ> well if you realy want to generalize they know very little
<Beholder> How about yourself?
<HickServ> most people in my social studies class don't know where  it is on the map
<HickServ> oh me
<HickServ> lemme see
<Beholder> Don't know where it is on the map?!  It's the biggest ass country in the world!  (now that Russia has been... paritioned :)
<HickServ> well i know it origionally belonged to england, 7 or something provinces, capital is ottawa, i hate the french there
06:40pm
<HickServ> not much really
<HickServ> but i haven't studied it
<HickServ> you'd be suprised how many people think the capital is toronto
<Beholder> Toronto is the biggest City here (3 mil people)... 51% immigrants at the moment
<HickServ> i see
<HickServ> well us and mexico are gonna take you ever!!!
<Beholder> heheh... come get some
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> YES!
<HickServ> funny how people think asm is so hard
<HickServ> mostly cause they tell themselves so
<Beholder> Actually the US for some reason has never had any interest in the country....  even though we have 100x the natural resources to exploit...  including water
<HickServ> well we could've during our revolution but we lost in the battle of quebec :(
<AlonzoTG> hehe
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> we suck
<Beholder> Hell ya... but we had a well developed country (Britan) backing us in that one
<HickServ> hey Alonzo when you gonna start coding your os
<HickServ> well we still won our independence
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is too lame to code...
<AlonzoTG> Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
<AlonzoTG> Any suggestions on how to kode?
<HickServ> oh really?
<HickServ> what languages al?
<Beholder> Hick:  Yes you did...
<Beholder> Alon:  I thought you were an ASM coder?
06:50pm
<HickServ> i need to refresh myself on arithmetic in asm
<AlonzoTG> I don't know which languages
<AlonzoTG> I don't know how to code...
<AlonzoTG> :(((
<HickServ> ah
<AlonzoTG> can't link...
<HickServ> you need to get your prioritys straight buddy
<Beholder> Damn Alonzo.... get some books or something.  
<HickServ> don't you know a little forth al?
<Beholder> Alon:  C programming is a good place to start, and yes you can program an entire OS with it...
<HickServ> no don't listen to the canuke
<HickServ> asm asm asm
<AlonzoTG> hehe
<AlonzoTG> but which languages and more importantly HOW DO I LINK???
<HickServ> what do you mean link?
<HickServ> depends on your compiler
<Beholder> Hick: I'd imagine C is a better place to start... easier to change the code afterwords... damn ASM is like pulling hair
<AlonzoTG> well it depends on my OS...
<AlonzoTG> also need to be multiplatform ready...
<AlonzoTG> portable as in...
<HickServ> asm is ok
<HickServ> do the low level stuff in asm at lest
<HickServ> least
<Beholder> Alon:  Why not just protoype something in a HLL like Java?  You can test almost anything that way
<AlonzoTG> hmm...
<AlonzoTG> I'm FAR too lame to do that...
<HickServ> write your own LLL :)
<HickServ> that's what im doing
<Beholder> Alon:  No, I mean learn Java and make a prototype of your design in Java... don't make a new HLL ;)
07:00pm
<Beholder> Unfortunatly, I must leave now, chat later
-:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-064.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes []
<HickServ> i suggest c if you really wanna go that way for portability
<AlonzoTG> rats
<AlonzoTG> Yes 
<AlonzoTG> I agree 
<AlonzoTG> C
<AlonzoTG> :)
<HickServ> don't do it in java tis a waste of time
<AlonzoTG> Now HOW THE FUCK DO I LINK THE FUCKER
<HickServ> hold your horses
<HickServ> breath
<HickServ> 1
<HickServ> 2
<HickServ> 3
<HickServ> ok
<HickServ> what compiler are you using?
<AlonzoTG> LCC
<AlonzoTG> lame C compiler
<HickServ> for linux?
<AlonzoTG> no
<AlonzoTG> I dunno
<AlonzoTG> I don't care.
<HickServ> hmmmmm
<HickServ> what os are you using?
<HickServ> quickly no al
<HickServ> now
<HickServ> i mean
<AlonzoTG> dos. 
<AlonzoTG> 2.1
<AlonzoTG> :P
<HickServ> hahaha
<HickServ> cool
<HickServ> is this your only comp?
<AlonzoTG> my parents just put crash 98 on my old computer...
<AlonzoTG> hint: my new computer is 4 years old...
<AlonzoTG> :P
<HickServ> hehehe
<HickServ> well im getting a new comp soon you can telnet into it and do some development if you like
07:10pm
<AlonzoTG> hmm
<AlonzoTG> but HOW?????
<AlonzoTG> I took years and years of computer science...
<HickServ> huh?
<AlonzoTG> I can write trivial little shit up the wazoo but I can't figrue out how to code a linker!
<HickServ> oh you wanna code a linker
<HickServ> well what does this linker do exactly?
<HickServ> 2 miutes left be quick
<HickServ> 1 minute :(
<AlonzoTG> Link stuff into my OS so that it talks to other shit..
<HickServ> oh
<AlonzoTG> wi iz everybody leafing?
<HickServ> well i can't talk right now :(
<HickServ> im sorry al
<HickServ> tommorow
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving)
07:20pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (MARK!!!)
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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<_QZ> AlonzoTG: do u have access to bespin?
<AlonzoTG> wutiz bespin?
<_QZ> tril's box
<_QZ> if u dont know i guess u dont have access
08:10pm
<AlonzoTG> =]
-:- _QZx [qz@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<_QZx> this is bespin
-:- SignOff _QZx: #TUNES (_QZx has no reason)
08:20pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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<HickServ> hello
08:50pm
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<tcn> hey
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<Hardwyred> hello....would someone care to explain what Tunes is? 
<tcn> sure, I'll take a shot at it
<tcn> basically, it's an operating system that's organized at a high level instead of low level...
<Hardwyred> .....?
<tcn> and it's "reflective", meaning it has a "nice" method of self-modification
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<Hardwyred> self modification?  
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<tcn> instead of editing the C source code, recompiling the kernel, rebooting... you can modify it while it's running.
09:00pm
<Hardwyred> ahh...neat.  doesnt that bring up a stability issue?
<tcn> nope :)
<tcn> this idea of "metaprogramming" is going to be important
<Hardwyred> why not? 
<tcn> in other words, programs do most of the programming..
<tcn> stability depends on how well it's designed
<Hardwyred> in what scenarios would a program recode itself? 
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<tcn> since it's a high-level OS, you don't muck around with machine code much.. so there's little room for error. And the software can catch any fatal errors, in theory at least ;)
<Hardwyred> so its even coded in a high level language rather then machine?
<tcn> most code would be compiled into machine code.
<HickServ> :)
<Hardwyred> any binaries to play with yet?
<tcn> all this "reflection" operates on the intermediate level, between source code and machine code.. (syntax trees)
<tcn> I've been working on the low-level code all year..
<Hardwyred> this sounds like a pretty large undertaking....I wish you guys luck..and thanks for the tour
<HickServ> creating a forth compiler woo hoo (sarcasm)
<HickServ> :|
-:- SignOff Hardwyred: #TUNES (using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/981227-pre0.9)
<tcn> heh.. I'm starting to understand what's important about tunes :)
<tcn> 6 months after I joined
<tcn> hey, I coined a new motto for my OS.. "Retro, the reactionary OS"
09:10pm
<HickServ> your impure tcn
<HickServ> hehehe
* tcn/#tunes is in another VT
<HickServ> huh?
<tcn> linux
<tcn> virtual terminals
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> oic
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (bye)
09:20pm
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh5-port36.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<billyboof> whas up everyone
<tcn> oh, hi
<tcn> updating my web page
<billyboof> cool...
<billyboof> i'm just hanging out <as usual>
09:30pm
<tcn> ok, new retro page is up..
-:- HickServ [Algernon@209.68.229.38] has joined #tunes
<tcn> http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro.html
<HickServ> in and out in and out
<tcn> where ya been?
<HickServ> my dad got pissed at me
<tcn> heh
<HickServ> oh my
<HickServ> damn tcn you know how to get things done
<tcn> eh?
<HickServ> your all work and little talk
<HickServ> it's liek we got this done let's get this done now
<tcn> your kiddin right?
<HickServ> um
<HickServ> no
<tcn> you looked?
<HickServ> yes
09:50pm
<tcn> hey, I see Forth was supposed to be the Tunes LLL (with a few changes)
<HickServ> :(((
<tcn> nah, that's a good thing
<tcn> that means we're almost there
<HickServ> well forth is a pretty damn good language
<HickServ> i just started learning it today
<tcn> don't get too caught up with it :)
<tcn> I guess it's no more confusing than LISP, with all them ()'s
<HickServ> i nned to learn LISP tambien
<tcn> heh.. forth is pretty normal, compared to lisp
<HickServ> lsip is kinda weird
<tcn> lisp is good for certain things though
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (later)
!Woad:*! grumble. irc.linux.com will be back shortly. 2.2.8+SMP = sucks
!Bhaal:*! Try running 2.2.9
!Woad:*! it is now :) just wasn't when we went live =p
!Bhaal:*! I setup on a machine last night, and well, its still running now :)
!LinuxGold:*! huh ?
!LinuxGold:*! woad hmm
!Bhaal:*! 2.2.9 that is :)
!Woad:*! all the rest of linux.com is 2.2.9 running nicely :)
!Bhaal:*! good good, that means that I shouldnt have too much of a problem
!doogie:*! /me wonders why the /wallops are being used for this.
10:00pm
!LinuxGold:*! hmm
!LinuxGold:*! doogie hmm
!spice_huh:*! /me is a bit amazed at the number of new ops that irc.linux.com has handed out
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-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES ('night)
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-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
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<lar1> hey
<abi> hi, lar1
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
<Tril> hello
<abi> what's up, Tril
10:30pm
<lar1> tril, do you run x11amp?
<Tril> not recently
<Tril> I ran an old version, before they released the source
-:- ruiner [nate@ppp124.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> mornin
<lar1> tril, was it good or should I look at a differnet one?
<Tril> lar1 it's good if you like the winamp sort of interface, although it's not exactly alike
<Tril> what's wrong with x11amp?
<Tril> maybe you want one that works outside of X?
<lar1> nothing that I know of... I just heard some talk that the quality of it was going south
<Tril> quality of playback? or of some other part of the program?
<lar1> just in general
<Tril> try freeamp, it's GPL. Probably not as efficient yet, but who knows
-:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.141.228] has joined #tunes
<carlito> hey there
<Tril> my problem with mp3 players in linux is even if they use realtime mode, sometimes the sound skips. 
<ruiner> hey
<Tril> Maybe it's the sound driver, or maybe I need the actual realtime kernel.
<lar1> hmmm, ok I'll take a look... I have no problem with X11amp (well if I can get it to run)
<lar1> realtime kernel?
<Tril> or I could adjust the scheduling frequency?
<Tril> yeah the realtime-linux project has a modified kernel, trying to implement the posix realtime specs
<lar1> does it skip when there are very few things running?
<lar1> so there could in theory be winmodem support?
<Tril> lar1: it doesn't skip often, just when I give the kernel a heavy load, like use lots of memory or cpu or both
<Tril> winmodem? what's that have to do with ?
<lar1> tril:  just a side question... my laptop came witha winmodem... arg!
10:40pm
<lar1> tril:  It'll skip in any os under heavy load if yer buffers arent high enough
<Tril> There was a great cry for someone to use a serial port redirector and reverse-engineer the winmodem protocol.  Who is crazy enough to do it?
<lar1> me
<lar1> I went to frys.... I saw not a single nonwinmodem
<lar1> so I run on 14.4 pcmcia... s-l-o-w
<Tril> lar1, I should be able to tell a kernel to take enough time out of its day, to make sure I *ALWAYS* have the necessary blocks of the mp3 read into memory and to *ALWAYS* make sure the sound playback interrupts occur on time and dont let any other processes run until after it can guarantee my sound won't skip!
<Tril> the only time it should skip is when the mp3 file itself is fragmented and the disk is phyiscally incapable of seeking fast enough.
<Tril> in tunes you will be able to specify such guarantees. Just like that. "DO NOT LET THE SOUND SKIP- AT ALL COSTS"
<lar1> tril:  hmmmm, then add that to my list of why windows suckc
<Tril> lar1 windows?
<lar1> windows95
<lar1> tool of the devil
<Tril> Winamp skipped a lot when I used scroll bars.  X11amp just skips when the kernel scheduler gets saturated.
<Tril> it isn't a reason why windows sucks, if Linux does it too, I mean.
<lar1> ahhhh, windows sucks, linux is... better, os/2 sucks.... there all after me!
<lar1> do I want the x11amp binarys or source?
<Tril> both?
<Tril> you can't go wrong.
<lar1> well, the last time I tryed to compile it complained about my libc.... ARG
<Tril> if you d/l a bin make sure to get the right libc one
<lar1> hmmm, I don't want rpm... but I don't want source... dammit... source it is
10:50pm
<_QZ> Tril: do u know howto make wget grab something like borg.qzx.com/infoz that doesnt have an index.html?
-:- SignOff carlito: #TUNES (Excess Flood)
<Tril> _QZ: add a / at the end of the path
<_QZ> do u want me to upload all my info to bespin?
<lar1> oooooooooo, ooooooooooooo, upload it to me!
<Tril> what info?
<Tril> is that all that game programming info you were going to upload before?
<Tril> that's what I gave you the account for, right?  :)
<_QZ> <tcn> HickServ: QZ has lots of hardware docs
<_QZ> <tcn> QZ was gonna upload all his stuff to get it started
<_QZ> ok ill start uploading everything i have
<Tril> how big?
11:00pm
<lar1> hey _QZ mabye you could send to me too?
<_QZ> 200+meg
<_QZ> others like tcn can help categorize it
<Tril> there's 400 free on /users now, should be ok
<_QZ> i thought u had like 17gig now?
<Tril> if it gets close, I'll delete something
<Tril> I do, I just like to keep it full. I can always delete something to make more room :)
<_QZ> wget -r http://borg.qzx.com/infoz/  <-- isnt working
<lar1> tril:  can I spider it from bespin when qz finsishs sending it?
<Tril> i guess?
<_QZ> lar1: we gotta get it to bespin first
<lar1> thannks
<lar1> need help orginizing it?
<_QZ> yes
<lar1> I'm yer man
<Tril> _QZ is wget stopping because it is reading robots.txt? Yer robots.txt says to not allow bots
<lar1> give me permissions and it'll all be orginized
<_QZ> oh damnit
<_QZ> there we go
<_QZ> upload in progress
<_QZ> oh my god
<lar1> hey, ummm, I'll orginize the entire thing for you two!
<_QZ> 22215   infoz
<_QZ> 4600    OSDP
<_QZ> 120524  DOC
<lar1> crap.... but my offer still stands I'll orginize it
-:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Tril> lar1 know anything about databases?
<Tril> SQL?
11:10pm
<_QZ> the first 2 are organized
<lar1> a very little.... but I learn fast... mever used sql before
<_QZ> the doc isnt
<_QZ> i have msql
<_QZ> oh are u asking him to put it into a dbase?
<lar1> dammit... my X window gets tooo crowed too fast!
<Tril> qz no I'm looking for someone to put Review in a db and write a nice web interface to it :)
<lar1> I'll do it as soon as I lern this sql thing
<_QZ> ah
<_QZ> i had computer parts in sql and a web interface
<Tril> I noticed Review gets a lot of visits
<_QZ> msql comes with www extensions
<Tril> in my web logs
<_QZ> or u can get php3 
<Tril> I picked postgres the others weren't free
<lar1> from what i'v heard php is cool
<_QZ> i couldnt get postgres to work
<_QZ> lar1: www.qzx.com is all php3
<lar1> QZ: I know
<Tril> _QZ: this is what .deb is for
<lar1> does html still get sent to my browser when php is used?
<_QZ> php3 is a server side preprocessing language
<lar1> so yes
<_QZ> the server dynamically generates html for each access
<lar1> who feels like walking me through updating glib?
<_QZ> i use a single file to generate the 'look' of all the pages and each page just includes that file and fills in variables
<_QZ> im gonna update glib
<_QZ> as soon as my rh6 cd arrives
<_QZ> :)
<lar1> i need to... x11amp needs >= 1.2.0
<_QZ> 1.2?
<_QZ> glibc?
<Tril> what is glib
<Tril> i know what glibc is
<lar1> yea thats what configure says... checking for GLIB - version >= 1.2.0... no
<_QZ> or is glib from gtk?
<lar1> mabye
<_QZ> u need to install gtk 1.2
<Tril> yeah
<lar1> it gtk hard to install?
<Tril> GTK is one library
<_QZ> no but very cpu intensive
11:20pm
<lar1> to compile?
<Tril> gnome on the other hand requires setting up 30 other things first
<_QZ> Tril: glib is the low level gfx stuff used by gtk
<lar1> no gnome for me!
<_QZ> i will soon have gnome
<Tril> I dunno if GTK is cpu intensive, I never noticed, but Qt is sure a memory hog!
<_QZ> Tril: to compile it
<Tril> lar1: to compile it
<lar1> dammit... I need all the cpu I have now!! :(
<Tril> need a DPU
<lar1> dpu?  dual proccessing unit?
<_QZ> pentium 266 mmx took about 30 minutes to compile gtk 1.1.12
<Tril> Decentralized processing unit
<Tril> but you probably wouldnt call it a unit then either :)
<lar1> tril, how is it different from a cpu?
<_QZ> heh
<lar1> how is gtk+ 1.2.3 for stability? good?
<Tril> lar1: a CPU is a Central Processing Unit, meaning all processing goes to one place. DPU is the opposite, which I just made up. Where processing goes everywhere except one place. And gets done faster because of it.
<lar1> sounds cool
<lar1> wouldn't it be a dps decentralized proccessing system?
<_QZ> gfx makers should add a few general instructions to their video processors so they could be used with smp
<Tril> lar1, ya
<_QZ> then u could offload the Ui to the video card, or when the system really needed power u could have it process system threads
<lar1> I want a dual xenon 500
<_QZ> xeon
<lar1> and a bigger HD
<_QZ> i want a quad xeon 2meg 550 system
<lar1> hmmph.. I want a quad alpha at a really high speed
<_QZ> dual 9gig cheetahs that are striped
<lar1> ach, I tired... gonna go see ya tommarow
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (ciao!)
<_QZ> me too
<_QZ> cya
* _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( sleep )
11:30pm
* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0520
IRC log ended Thu May 20 00:00:00 1999