IRC log started Fri Jun  4 00:00:00 1999
<water> we can at least talk on e-mail
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0604
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<BlackPhoenix> btw, you are so active... is there a night? well, here is morning...
<BlackPhoenix> hmm... and I just have downloaded squeak... maybe I will look at it even today
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<water> ok. i'm back
<tcn> I see there's a big "todo" section for translating arrows to machine-usable form..
<water> definitely.
<water> the squeak classes should be a good foundation, since a c-translator is provided for squeak.
<BlackPhoenix> tcn: and you. what are you doing here? simply interesting...
<tcn> Oh, I'm in Tunes also
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<BlackPhoenix> btw, what you think if I say that, for example, UA could be a language over other languages or protocol over other protocols or operating systems...? I mean I don't intend UA would yet another programming language but rather a mean for transfering knowledges throughout the world... 
<tcn> I wonder if you could represent arrows with only 2 bits each, using location to convey most of the meaning..
<BlackPhoenix> oops... knowledges... in my native language it could be plural...
<water> phoenix: tunes has a meta-translator (called a meta-language) for just such a purpose.
<water> phoenix: what's your native language?
<BlackPhoenix> ukrainian or russian
12:10am
<water> ok
<BlackPhoenix> what is base for this meta-translator? I mean language or protocol
<BlackPhoenix> but, at least I notice my own errors... it is fine.
<water> we haven't decided on a base system.  we're mostly trying to formalize the idea and think of requirements for it.
<tcn> ok, I'm leaving.. it'll be dawn soon :)
<water> tcn: ok
<BlackPhoenix> tcn: bye
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<BlackPhoenix> then, what you think about XML?
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<water> well, because it's based on text, it's not very dense.  but it does give a simple standard for data-structures, which helps people.
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<BlackPhoenix> it does matter for me... because some people are interesting in UA namely because I oppose it to XML
<water> well, because it's based on text, it's not very dense.  but it does give a simple standard for data-structures, which helps people.
<BlackPhoenix> water: so where are you? You SO active at night...
<water> i'm in seattle, washington.
<BlackPhoenix> dense means badly machine interpreted or the like
<BlackPhoenix> of course I know where is Seattle... I like grunge... but not only it...
<water> dense means more information per byte (or kilobyte or megabyte)
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<BlackPhoenix> well, it is the problem for XML but then maybe UA is not so interesting for TUNES? because though I am ready to represent UA with byte-code but in general it would be text...
<water> text is not a problem.
<BlackPhoenix> I try to say I want UA to be really used language as soon as impossible ;) so I positioned it as the most approximated language to current problems in the whole industry...
<water> we are more interested in reflection in a language
12:20am
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<BlackPhoenix> reflection... better to say me concretely what you mean under the term. Do you mean well-grounded theory or what?
<water> abi: reflection?
<abi> water: i don't know
<water> darn.
<BlackPhoenix> what is darn? slang? or like damn?
<water> abi: reflection is a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state
<water> phoenix: darn is like damn.
<BlackPhoenix> can she learn anything?
<water> a system reflects if it changes the way it works, even if the change is temporary.
<water> abi: what is reflection?
<abi> reflection is, like, a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state
<water> abi: good girl.
<abi> :)
<BlackPhoenix> cool
<water> abi: status?
<abi> Since Thu May 27 22:09:20 1999, there have been 533 modifications and 322 questions.  I have been awake for 7 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes, 0 seconds this session, and currently reference 1645 factoids.
<water> anyway, we're looking for a breakthrough in reflection, since current reflection libraries are very limited.
<BlackPhoenix> water: in general reflection is like self-organization...
<water> yes. it's a way of organizing self
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<BlackPhoenix> wow! then I have reflection in UA it is based on mere 4 operations and 4 contexts and could be represent in a tree and I realize it could be used for TRUE visual programming... because I think this would be finely visualized 
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<water> right. that kind of reflection is why i find your work interesting.
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12:30am
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<water> for example, my arrow system's arrows _all_ reflect.
<BlackPhoenix> and such property could be used both for programming and for reorganizing system 
<water> that's because their purpose is to talk about other arrows.
<BlackPhoenix> I see only your last phrase... about _all_ reflects
<water> ?  i meant that all of the arrows in the arrow system reflect.
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<BlackPhoenix> and I mean if you say something else please repeat... well, I haven't read your paper and am not ready to discuss it in full extent yet
<water> ok
<water>  i said before that all of the arrows in the arrow system reflect.
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<BlackPhoenix> just now I cannot understand what does mean that the arrow system reflect...
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12:40am
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<BlackPhoenix> well, I think I quit... Connection is poor... and such things...
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<water> hey ruiner
<_ruiner_> hi
<_ruiner_> what a pain
<_ruiner_> I'm trying to figure out how to get past a firewall
<water> oh.
<water> whose firewall?
<_ruiner_> this little punk kid's firewall
<_ruiner_> he's 19 I think...
<water> have you read the Linux howto on firewalls?
<_ruiner_> he nailed me pretty good once....I'm planning revenge
<_ruiner_> nope.....
<_ruiner_> abi: firewalls?
<abi> i don't know, _ruiner_
<water> how old are you?
<_ruiner_> dammit
<_ruiner_> 21
<water> i'm the same age as you
<_ruiner_> I'm not sure what kind of firewall it is either.....
<_ruiner_> cool
<_ruiner_> I just turned 21 may 30
<water> i don't mess with that stuff any more.
<_ruiner_> no worries
<_ruiner_> I'm writing an app that if I can get to him will really mess him over
<_ruiner_> it tries to write to every port....I'm hoping to maybe fry his bios
<_ruiner_> a 15 dollar fix....but still....it'll result in downtime
<water> i almost was caught by the fed's, and i decided to quit the hobby.
<_ruiner_> you'
<water> i have a friend in the navy who was on the nsa's top 100 most wanted list.
<water> that's why he's in the navy: to avoid prison time.
12:50am
<_ruiner_> heh heh heh
<water> we talk about hacking Apple ][s and unix sometimes.
<water> i'm not as capable or knowledgable as he is, though.
<water> you should really read up of the Linux firewall piercing howto.
<_ruiner_> where?
<water> it should be at http://www.linux.org/ somewhere among the documentation links.
<_ruiner_> hmmmmm.....
<_ruiner_> I found how to set one up.....
<_ruiner_> ah ha!
<water> found it?
<_ruiner_> yep
<_ruiner_> it only talks about going out though, not in
<water> hmm.
<water> oh yeah.  sorry.
<water> i guess "2600 quarterly" or "Phrack" would be more helpful.
01:00am
<_ruiner_> hmmmmmmm
<water> i honestly don't know.  i learned from friends who were active at the time and by experimenting and learning about os's and firewalls.
<_ruiner_> hmmmmmm.....
<_ruiner_> phrack has some useful stuff
<_ruiner_> maybe I should just diable his keyboard.....
<_ruiner_> disable
01:10am
<_ruiner_> ah well.....
<_ruiner_> thanks for the help!
<_ruiner_> bye
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01:20am
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<hcf> mornin Fare
<Fare> afternoon, hcf
<hcf> found a couple more os projects
<hcf> DR-OS is at http://www.mindspring.com/~dpsicilia/
<hcf> GO is at http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~gel/go.html
<hcf> hmm
<hcf> perhaps we need a monthly message to the main mlist to remind ppl of the other lists
<hcf> it'd also be nice if the other mlists were mentioned on the mlists web page
06:40am
<hcf> hmm, 1999.0603 produced our 3rd largest #tunes log file of 118866bytes
06:50am
<Fare> are these OS projects interesting?
<Fare> or just the usual thing?
<hcf> the usual
<hcf> dr-os is in 8088 asm, and go is oo
07:00am
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<tcn> I'd like to link from my retro page to some of my docs in cvsweb
<tcn> do you know if there a way to tell cvsweb "show me the current version"?
<Fare> good question. Is 42 a valid answer? I guess not.
<Fare> I think the answers are RTFM and UTSL
<tcn> utsl?
<tcn> oh
<tcn> :)
<Fare> Use The Source, Luke!
09:40am
<tcn> ok I'm using the source
<Fare> so am I
<Fare> I guess something with HEAD might be used
* tcn/#tunes nods
<Fare> line 438 is funy
<Fare> s/ny/nny/
<tcn> what is it?
<Fare> a giand smiley
<Fare> s/d/t/
<Fare> the disclaimer is funny, too
<tcn> hey I gotta use the phone for a minute
<tcn> when I get back let's talk PS/MM/GC..
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09:50am
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<tcn> ok, I'm designing MM & PS on paper..
<tcn> I think I'll need 3 memory spaces:
<Fare> did you find help on cvsweb?
<tcn> 1. header space - only contains 32-byte object headers, all in supervisor mode
<Fare> did you read the pages on persistence from the tunes site?
<tcn> 2. string space - various strings and lists, all different sizes (mostly small)
<Fare> Did you read also the stuff about GC, generations, and stacks as a first-gen optimization?
<tcn> 3. object space - 1 object (or "module" containing small sub-objects) per 4k page
<Fare> 32-byte object headers? What's that?
<tcn> (i've read some of that stuff)
<Fare> firstly, there should definitely be different behavior for small vs large objects, for pure data vs data-with-embedded pointers, etc
<Fare> another is to start simple, at the cost of being inefficient
<tcn> object headers: next, children (ptr), parent, size, type/flags, name (ptr), address, external address (ptr)
10:00am
<Fare> parent? you mean you want a bidirectional graph?
<Fare> it definitely costs a lot when you have that feature...
<tcn> an object with parent=0 is non-heirarchical
<Fare> name? why should objects have a name?
<tcn> this is sort of like a filesystem
<Fare> names get in the way
<tcn> well, what should it have instead of a name?
<Fare> nothing. Just be consistently pointed to.
<tcn> names are for us humans
<Fare> exactly. they are a high-level concept, not a low-level one.
<Fare> at the low-level we should do without
<tcn> so what do suggest object headers contain?
<Fare> As I see things, we'd have a virtual flat addressing of memory objects.
<tcn> agreed
<Fare> headers contain some type/size/flag information, and enough to do GC/relocation/whatever, if needed
<Fare> (sometimes, GC/whatever is stores data in a separate scratch area instead)
<Fare> small objects benefit from a copying kind of GC
<tcn> right.
<Fare> bigger objects benefit from a no-move kind of GC
<tcn> using paging
<Fare> paging when present is sure helpful
<Fare> first, sort objects by "GCtype"
<Fare> the GCtype of an object includes:
<Fare> 1) what size is the object
<Fare> 2) has it embedded pointers (or how to derive them)
10:10am
<Fare> 3) is it modifiable
<Fare> 4) is it linear?
<Fare> if we're to encourage pure programming, we could make all objects constant, and keep a separate store of "variable references"
<tcn> hmm
<tcn> i'm mostly concerned with impure programs right now :)
<tcn> assembly language, with lots of embedded pointers
<Fare> ok, so let's drop linear things for the time being
<Fare> do you want to give a bonus to non-modifiable items, anyway?
<tcn> yeah
<Fare> I think it can help the GC a lot, but it would require measurements to be sure.
<tcn> I'll have a lot of locked objects in the "kernel"
<Fare> ok, so there remains 1) size 2) pointerful and 3) modifiable
<Fare> so to begin with, let's just have a persistent store with these
<tcn> ok
<Fare> this limits us to a 4G address space, but that's no problem:
<Fare> big objects as well as other stuff will be taken care of by a "distributed object model"
<tcn> I have this 'extaddr' pointer in my object headers to use for disk/network/redundant addressing
<Fare> or maybe we should think about that already?
<Fare> tcn: good
<Fare> maybe we should also have a mechanism to invalidate/revalidate cached objects?
10:20am
<Fare> or would that be independent from the GC? I believe not.
<tcn> the extaddr is pretty free-form.. type/flags, size and type-dependent data (disk address, IP addr & OID, URL, etc..)
<Fare> good
<tcn> cached objects: you mean objects loaded into RAM from disk or network?
<Fare> yeah
<Fare> and if we're persistent, that includes a lot of objects
<Fare> oops, reminds me:
<Fare> real-time and persistent objects should be in different pools
<Fare> make it real-time, transient, and persistent...
<tcn> real-time = in RAM? (including temporary objects)
<Fare> real-time implies in RAM.
<tcn> not including temporary.. that's transient
<Fare> but it also implies special GC treatment
<tcn> right
<Fare> since you mustn't wait for the disk (or the network) while processing RT data
<tcn> they get a 'don't swap out' flag
<Fare> I think that putting them in altogether different pages is a better idea:
<tcn> yup
<Fare> and require special low-level accessors when accessing "foreign" objects from a program in a given "mode".
<tcn> the flag may still be necessary
<Fare> they would be pagewise flags
<Fare> instead of objectwise flags
<Fare> this suggests different kinds of primitives and/or calling conventions for persistent vs real-time vs whatever processes.
<tcn> ugh :)
<Fare> or else, some nifty way to keep the prog style superficially the same while changing important primitives underneath
10:30am
<tcn> ok, now to data structures..
<Fare> a very well-reputed GC in use is the one of OCAML
<Fare> but they do no such thing as RT vs transient vs persistent
<Fare> I believe we should think about persistent ("normal") objects first
<tcn> what about RAM alloc/free algorithms?
<Fare> good question
<Fare> I think we should start simple, and optimize later, from profiling data
<tcn> maybe, a heap for free regions (sorted by size), and a rbtree for used regions (sorted by address)
<tcn> good idea
<Fare> size-sorting is a must
<tcn> it fits my philosophy of experimenting
<tcn> with a heap, you'd put the largest block on top.. right?
<Fare> maybe we should keep only power-of-two sizes, or perhaps, something finer-grained, like power-of-alpha, where alpha=exp(ln(2)/k)
<Fare> objects of size > p pages  get whole-pages
<Fare> hum. I guess this means separate allocation for address space, for actual RAM, and for persistent disk space
<Fare> we'll have to manage a three-fold mapping
<tcn> yup
<Fare> since we can get quite anything at the page level thanks to the MMU,
<tcn> to expand an object's address space, it may be necessary to move it
<Fare> the big question becomes the address space allocation
<tcn> just allocate as much logical space as needed, and move it later if necessary
<tcn> ?
<tcn> at first I thought "give each object 4M of address space (one PDE)".. but that only allows 1024 objects
<Fare> or is _contiguous_ allocation of pages a _big_ problem for real-time devices?
<Fare> bad idea, especially for small objects :)
10:40am
<tcn> we could have another alloc function that lets you reserve extra logical space
<Fare> but perhaps a good idea for pagewise allocation.
<tcn> if you expect it to grow
<Fare> I mean, every page in a PDE with same flags/whatever
<Fare> or would that preclude diversity for big objects?
<Fare> maybe.
<Fare> at least, for small objects, this looks like a good idea
<tcn> hmm, e^((ln 2)/2) = 2^.5
<Fare> most objects have fixed length known in advance
<tcn> yeah
<Fare> or else, they are accessed sequentially, and are usable thru something like GNU obstack
<tcn> a program can do its own "expanding"
<tcn> obstack?
* Fare/#Tunes cannot see obstack.h in /usr/include anymore!
* Fare/#Tunes is blind
<Fare> it is there!
<tcn> ok
<tcn> anyway, we should have a "standard" data structure like obstack, provided at a higher level
<Fare> sure
<tcn> only deal with fixed size objects here
<tcn> (here = memory allocation)
<Fare> yup
<Fare> wait, could I be away for some fifteen minutes?
<tcn> go for it
* Fare/#Tunes is away
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10:50am
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<iStormy> hi
<abi> hoy, iStormy
<tcn> hey stormy
<tcn> we're designing a persistent storage/garbage collection system
<iStormy> cool.
<iStormy> make sure you use heavy-duty bags
<iStormy> (c;
<tcn> heh
<tcn> well I'm not gonna wait around for fare.. gotta get to the library before it closes
11:20am
<tcn> I need some reference material for data structures
<tcn> see ya
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11:30am
<Fare> hum
11:40am
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<_ruiner_> hmmmmm.......
<iStormy> hmm.
12:30pm
<binEng> hm
<_ruiner_> h
<_ruiner_> la la la la la la la la
<_ruiner_> rock!
<_ruiner_> its deader than dead
<_ruiner_> hmmmmm....
<_ruiner_> somebody else talk....
<binEng> never ;)
<_ruiner_> hmmm......
<_ruiner_> digital
<_ruiner_> how to get at somebody who's behind a firewall
<_ruiner_> chapter 1
<_ruiner_> first, you ask alonzo
<_ruiner_> so....alonzo....any ideas how to break through a firewall?
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<_ruiner_> wb fare
<Fare> ruiner: Firewall-Piercing mini-HOWTO
<_ruiner_> read it
<_ruiner_> its for outgoing, not incoming
* Fare/#Tunes should publish an updated version.
<Fare> ruiner: easier
<_ruiner_> outgoing doesn't help me unless i can give him a trojan
<Fare> ruiner: will you take over the fwprc mini-HOWTO?
<_ruiner_> and I'm not a trusted source, so I can't
<_ruiner_> take it over?
<Fare> ruiner: httptunnel and mailtunnel are your friend
<_ruiner_> hmmmm....
<Fare> ruiner: yeah, take it over...
<Fare> I send you my latest version, and you update it
<Fare> then you publish it
<Fare> and get a free paper copy of HOWTO paper editions...
<_ruiner_> maybe I'll just wait for lee to show up online sometime.....he used to break firewalls all the time for the navy
<Fare> lee?
<_ruiner_> I'm not up to the task yet fare
<_ruiner_> a friend of mine from when I was in virginia
<Fare> the fpmh is there to help you
<Fare> did you read it?
<_ruiner_> yeah
<_ruiner_> all it did was talk about outgoing
<_ruiner_> for business mostly
<Fare> no, if you read more carefully, it talked about incoming, too
<_ruiner_> really?
<_ruiner_> lemme look again
<Fare> and not for business
<Fare> intelligent people use ssh. Only lusers have to use fwprc
<Fare> the problem is with fscking sysadm who disable ssh
<Fare> the trick is: let someone inside have it outgoing
<Fare> and then you're done!
<Fare> (the "someon" may be a daemon, or a mail spy)
<_ruiner_> this guy has a firewall set up in his house
<_ruiner_> but get this.....he's a windoze user
<_ruiner_> I am too I guess.....but only partially
12:40pm
<Fare> his own firewall?
<Fare> why not use ssh, then???
<smkl> _ruiner_: you wanna hax0r him?
<_ruiner_> just a little slice of revenge smkl
<Fare> is that a friendly piercing, or an unfriendly piercing (aka cracking)?
<_ruiner_> unfriendly
<Fare> oh, then: FUCK YOU!
<_ruiner_> lol
<_ruiner_> gee...thanks
<smkl> why don't you just smurf him?
<_ruiner_> errrr......
<_ruiner_> nah
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<_ruiner_> I'm writing a program where I'll be able to disable his keyboard....
<_ruiner_> it'll drive him nuts
-:- mode/#Tunes [+b *!*ate@*wi.centuryinter.net] by Fare
-:- _ruiner_ was kicked off #Tunes by Fare (this is no #scriptkiddy)
<smkl> hehe
-:- mode/#Tunes [-b *!*ate@*wi.centuryinter.net] by Fare
<Fare> smkl: what about your "exams"?
<smkl> i had CS today. i don't know how well it went. i had to write two essays
<Fare> essays???? is that CS or literature????
12:50pm
<smkl> more like literature. they also had a problem where they defined a simple programming language and you had to write multiplication function in it
01:00pm
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
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-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-229-128.s382.tnt8.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> Yes that was a GPF =(
<AlonzoTG> abi, gpf?
<abi> alonzotg: wish i knew
<Fare> Windows users have the GPF. Linux users have the GPL.
<AlonzoTG> =)
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<tcn> I got AoCP
<AlonzoTG> ?
<Fare> so?
02:00pm
<Fare> tcn: for persistent data strcutures, I recommend the thesis of Chris Okasaki, published as a book "pure data structures" or something like that
<tcn> where would I find that?
<Fare> in a book store (or amazon, or whatever)
<tcn> anyway, they had AoCP down at the library, so I grabbed it.. that's all I need at the moment.
<binEng> Are persistant data structures really that special?
<Fare> maybe an entry in Review?
<Fare> binEng: yes and no
<binEng> Then I understand and don't understand.
<Fare> you must just ensure that you don't clobber previous versions of things until you committed changes.
<Fare> so that the on-disk structures really behave like pure data structures...
<binEng> What's the big deal with committments? What are they good for?
<Fare> binEng: oops, shutdown. yeah, recover!
<binEng> Would data structures be dirty, or?
<Fare> dirty?
<binEng> as opposed to pure :)
<Fare> oh, if you want
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<tcn> hey pat
<Beholder> Hey
-:- ^Myrmidon [ubiquity@dm3-42.slc.aros.net] has joined #TUNES
<^Myrmidon> Howdy.
<Fare> tcn: where were we about MM/PS/GC?
<tcn> about where we left off.. fixed-size allocation, obstack..
<tcn> The PS could handle "growing" objects
<tcn> for MM, all we need is the usual alloc/free
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> yup
* AlonzoTG/#tunes needs to implement prototype =\
<Fare> we could actually separate the GC process from allocation/deallocation/move proper
02:10pm
<tcn> yeah
<tcn> we don't really need GC yet
<tcn> i'm thinking about GC, learning the methods, etc.. but we don't need it until Retro exhausts my machine's 4M of RAM :)
<Fare> that could arrive fast...
<Fare> anyway, some apps will want to explicitly manage memory
<tcn> i'll worry about it when retro uses even 1M :)
<Fare> that's just as if we added the fourth type flag for objects: linear
<tcn> yeah, I don't intend a "solution for everything"
<Fare> linear objects are by def those that are explicitly managed
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations dpb!" :-)
<Fare> tcn: if we build a text editor to edit the sources, we'll easily blow the 1M limit up...
<tcn> welcome to our humble abode
<tcn> ok, fare
<tcn> we'll do page-granular GC, at least.
<tcn> I should go read Knuth's chapter on GC
<Fare> uh? if we're paying the price of GC, we could do it all the way
<Fare> Knuth's??? is it a recent paper?
<tcn> no, AOCP
<Fare> Paul Wilson wrote an excellent review... did you read the GC FAQ?
<tcn> yup
<tcn> I found the "GC glossary" helpful
<Fare> the harlequin thingy?
<tcn> yeah
-:- SignOff dpb: #TUNES (Leaving)
02:20pm
<Fare> is that the whole of published AoCP?
<Fare> how much was it?
<tcn> free
<tcn> for 2 weeks :)
<Fare> uh????
<Fare> oh, public library?
<tcn> college
<tcn> you go to the public library if you want novels, kids stuff, etc. :)
<Fare> ok
<tcn> now if I really wanted something exotic, the Cornell univ. library ain't too far away
<tcn> How about the organization of object headers...
<tcn> right now they're in a tree of linked lists
<Fare> hum. I guess that every page would have a "mirror" page of headers?
<tcn> no, headers are too small to each deserve a page
<tcn> 16 or 32 bytes
<Fare> if we group objects of same size in a same PDE, it's feasible to group headers in common pages, too
<Fare> or maybe put headers together with objects?
<tcn> headers are supervisor-accessable only
02:30pm
<Fare> that's a feature of typing, independent from actual layout
<tcn> anyway, I want headers grouped together, for locality of reference
<tcn> they
<tcn> they'll need to be searched frequently
<tcn> What do you think about using the header address as Object ID?
<Fare> this is a good idea for objects w/o embedded pointers,
<Fare> but not so good an idea for objects *with* embedded pointers
<tcn> maybe I should use a hashtable for ID->object lookups?
<Fare> tcn: using header address as OID is a possibility, but does that bring much?
<tcn> it's easy in the short run
<Fare> if we are to have persistent objects, we'll need a hash table anyway
<tcn> explain
<Fare> however, IDs are only for "exported" objects
<tcn> yeah
<Fare> tcn: let the "export proxy" manage things transparently...
<tcn> export proxy! ok.. you're beginning to convince me to use 2 or 3 levels where I was using only one
02:40pm
<tcn> Fare: enlighten me about this "export proxy"
<Fare> it's really just an object that maps externally visible OIDs to internal GC-able pointers
<tcn> hey.. something hit me
<Fare> yes?
<Fare> not too hard, I hope?
<tcn> we have size, addr, and extaddr for each object.. that's 12 bytes
<tcn> we can use the first 2 bits of addr and extaddr for flags
<tcn> we might as well use 16 bytes, for alignment optimization..
<Fare> we needn't extaddr
<tcn> So use the extra 4 bytes as a back-pointer to the higher-level data (name, structure, etc)
<Fare> and if we use bibop, we needn't size and flags, either
<tcn> bibop??
<Fare> well, maybe flags, if we have a per-object read/write barrier...
<Fare> big bag of pages
<tcn> i'd rather not
<Fare> rather not what?
02:50pm
<Fare> not bibop, or not per-object barrier?
<tcn> not bibop.. 
<Fare> I guess you want something of an incremental GC, don't you?
<tcn> or concurrent
<tcn> but concurrent GC is a subtype of incremental GC, right?
<tcn> anyway, I don't want a stop-and-copy type of GC :)
<Fare> or maybe incremental is a subtype of concurrent?
<Fare> ok, so the problem with concurrent GCs is the write/read barrier
<tcn> if the GC can go a little at a time, it's incremental by definition
<Fare> that is, something bad happens when you modify an object that was already scanned
<Fare> no, it's concurrent, by definition
<Fare> the fact that it happens exactly during allocation makes it incremental
<tcn> ok, the barrier would be done using paging?
03:00pm
<Fare> that's a way to do it
<Fare> paging has the advantage that it's implicitly done by hardware dirty pages
<tcn> if a blocked page is accessed, the task trying to access it is paused until the page is unblocked
<Fare> it has the disadvantage of being very coarse-grained
<tcn> yeah
<tcn> for the fine-grained GC, we need copying GC anyway.. right?
<Fare> which is kind of ok if you don't scan at once, but wait for lots of pointers to have been touched
<Fare> fine-grained is really the same, but you do testing in software
<Fare> whether you physically move data or not, you must logically move objects around sets
<Fare> see the HBaker paper about that:
<tcn> nomotiongc?
<Fare> there are white objects, black objects, grey objects, and "blue" objects
<Fare> yup
<Fare> the important point is that motion is *logical*
<Fare> a simple way to implement motion is to do it *physically*, but it's not the only way, and it's only practical when small objects dominate the heap
<tcn> Have you given any thought to object organization?
<Fare> what do you mean by "obj* org*" ?
<tcn> hierarchy? heterarchy? and how to represent it on the machine?
<Fare> just have objects be.
<Fare> no hierarchy
<Fare> instead, have an ADT for a "lexical environment"
<tcn> no links between them, either? (except within the body of the objects)
<Fare> within the body of objects should be enough
<tcn> ADT en ingles?
<Fare> Abstract Data Type
03:10pm
<Fare> also, maybe formalize the notion of an "external object", accessible thru proxies, that allow communication between several "address spaces"
<Fare> users will be able to create new address spaces
<Fare> the persistent stores will be particular, large, address spaces
<tcn> it might be a good exercise to consider "what if we were doing this on 16-bit machines?"
<tcn> or "how to break the 64k barrier without using a larger address size?"
<Fare> yeah: for we will be doing mostly the same with a 64-bit address space on top of a 32-bit system
<tcn> another thing (this fits the "same interface for users and programmers" philosophy)..
<tcn>   we could have objects access each other the way people would access them
<Fare> or rather "users as particular kind of programmers"
<Fare> tcn: uh? whaddyamean?
<tcn> let that guide us in designing the interface used to access external objects
<tcn> (I'm grasping at straws :)
<Fare> yeah
<tcn> I guess that was obvious
<AlonzoTG> my system does that to an ekstent...
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> I just gotta implement it...
<Fare> AlonzoTG?
<abi> AlonzoTG is probably annoying with his greetings messages
<tcn> what I had in mind doesn't involve text strings
03:20pm
<tcn> Fare: ADT for a "lexical environment" -- you mean a dictionary?
<tcn> (like in Forth)
<Fare> yup
<Fare> very much like a FORTH dictionary
<tcn> Forth will use it as a dictionary
<Fare> yeah
<tcn> anyway, my next programming task is to write alloc/free routines.. which involves studying up on data structures..
<tcn> we've done enough today
<tcn> it's been the most (err, only) productive IRC session i've had :)
03:30pm
<tcn> any other random thoughts, fare?
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03:40pm
<tcn> gc faq: "In ANSI/ISO C, realloc will change the size of an allocated block, usually by moving it."
<tcn> just what I thought
<AlonzoTG> om
<tcn> hey, obstack is just like the Forth heap
<tcn> see ya all
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<tcn> nice chatting with ya fare
<tcn> hi hs.. bye :)
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (hungry)
<HickServ> crap i just called intel but didn't have the book name and now the url won't work
<HickServ> anyone got the intel manuals?
<Fare>    damn cable
<Fare> I was cut from the net for minutes
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> opppps
<HickServ> nevermind
<AlonzoTG> me
03:50pm
<HickServ> no
<HickServ> i forgot to put manuals
<HickServ> k im gonna go call intel
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<HickServ> ah that shela is a nice lady
<AlonzoTG> om
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<tcn> hey fare, were you gonna say something? i saw that your cable crapped out..
<HickServ> the intel operator :)
<tcn> hey qz
<^Myrmidon> Hi QZ.
<HickServ> hi qz
<_QZ> hi
<abi> bonjour, _QZ
<HickServ> and hi myrmidon
<_QZ> fare has cable?
<Fare> hum
<Fare> yes, I do
<^Myrmidon> Hey HickServ.
<Fare> or rather, the cable 0wnz me
<_QZ> whats the average speed?
<Fare> I wondered about some generic protocol for cacheing
04:00pm
<tcn> reliability seems to be the issue with cable
<Fare> whereby you'd have abstract objects, their cached value that includes incremental modifications
<HickServ> hey you guys i hacked my linux kernel last night
<Fare> and a protocol to flush/whatever
<HickServ> i optimised some asm
<tcn> hs: configuring it doesn't count ;)
<HickServ> humbug
<HickServ> i did 
<tcn> cool, send it to linus
<Fare> also a locking mechanism in case both sides of the cache may be doing modifications
<HickServ> i worked on making the asm more efficient
<_QZ> wanna know what sucks big time? my friend paid $180 for a motherboard and a celeron 333. he got home and found out the onboard video didnt work so he was gonna take it back today but let it on the top of his car. he then found himslelf trying to find all the pieces in the dark (early morning)
<HickServ> im gonna hack some more now too
<Fare> Hs: you made it print "buenOS" at boot time?
<HickServ> no :(
<HickServ> one was really esay on asm/irg.h
<HickServ> irq
<Fare> better early morning than early warning
<^Myrmidon> _QZ: have you heard of EBC Computers?
<HickServ> it pushed all the registers using like 8 instruction and i optimised it to one
<_QZ> myr: yes i buy stuff there
<^Myrmidon> They probably have the best prices in town.
<HickServ> i used pushad
<HickServ> brb
<_QZ> on some items, lsmicro has better prices on other items
<_QZ> plus lsmicro has a better warranty system
<_QZ> myr: u wanna buy a computer?
<^Myrmidon> _QZ: heh, I don't like motherboards with onboard video.  Especially when they use shared RAM.
<_QZ> cheap
<^Myrmidon> I have enough already, but thanks. :)
<_QZ> myr: this was the amptron board with onboard: ethernet, sound, video, and modem
<^Myrmidon> I had to practically GIVE one to my aunt, because I have so much hardware laying about.
<^Myrmidon> :P
<_QZ> im selling a computer for cheap
<^Myrmidon> Wow.
<^Myrmidon> How much are you asking?
<_QZ> k6-200, 2meg et6000 w/ monitor, 32meg sdram, 1.3gig, pas16 w/ scsi $300
<^Myrmidon> Oh, I see. :)
<AlonzoTG> heh
<AlonzoTG> I have PAS 32
<AlonzoTG> no SB 32
<AlonzoTG> =\
<^Myrmidon> That's really reasonable, I'm just short on cash as it is.
<_QZ> know any1 that would want it?
<^Myrmidon> Possibly.  I have a few friends who might take it.
<^Myrmidon> I'll mention it.
<_QZ> heck ill even throw in an isa ne2000 combo card
<^Myrmidon> Sounds like you're anxious to sell it. :)
<tcn> Fare: i gotcha
<^Myrmidon> Looks like a great system for the price, though.
<_QZ> yes its taking up valuable floor space and i keep coming close to tripping over it
<tcn> just like I warned you about, qz
<tcn> hehe
<_QZ> tcn: shutup, yer not gonna stop me from getting the g400 max + another 17" monitor for it to go dual
<Fare> g400?
<Fare> what's that?
04:10pm
<HickServ> is gdb a good debugger?\
<_QZ> matrox G400 MAX 32meg video card
<_QZ> it is the third fastest 3D card
<^Myrmidon> QZ: have you thought about selling it online?  Through eBay or some such?
<_QZ> but it is the first 3D card to use environemt mapped bump mapping
<^Myrmidon> Most of my friends want pentium II systems. :P
<HickServ> gdb gdb gdb
<HickServ> is it good?
* Fare/#Tunes never uses 3d
<_QZ> myr: how much would they pay for a dual 463mhz celeron system?
<tcn> hs: i don't use it, but then, I never learned how to use a debugger very well
<HickServ> i'll jus install it anyway
<^Myrmidon> _QZ: depends on the specifications, I guess.
<Fare> dual celeron? I thought o'clockable celeri weren't produced anymore
<_QZ> they arent
<_QZ> but i have connections
<^Myrmidon> One of my friends bought $500 worth of computer hardware half a year ago to upgrade to an Intel 233Mhz MMX CPU and a socket 7 motherboard.  And he already wants to upgrade to a pentium II now. :P
<_QZ> is he overclocking that system to 290mhz?
<^Myrmidon> No, the ASUS motherboard he has is only capable of running a bus speed of up to 75 Mhz or some such.
<_QZ> ahh
<^Myrmidon> If he was able to overclock, I think the most he could pull would be 266 Mhz.
<_QZ> does he not know about the undocumented 83mhz bus?
<^Myrmidon> Probably not. :)
<_QZ> my p233mmz is running at 262/75 cuz the millenium in it wont work at 83mhz on that board
<^Myrmidon> He isn't a real technical person, he just uses his computer for fun.
<_QZ> s/mmz/mmx/
<^Myrmidon> Oh, ok.
<HickServ> qz knows a lot about hardware :\
<HickServ> im still gonna get an 810
<_QZ> ya im gonna go drill my celeries this weekend, maybe
<HickServ> *sigh*
<Fare> today, compuplayers are the "power users"...
<_QZ> 810 sucks, get the asus p2b-d
<HickServ> where'd you learn to be able to put doubles
<HickServ> you know with the soldering and drilling
<AlonzoTG> isn't the 300A pga still made?
<^Myrmidon> QZ: did you seen the guy who got posted on Slashdot for his "liquid cooling" system when overclocking his PC? :)
<_QZ> hahah yes i did
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<_QZ> AlonzoTG: yes
<^Myrmidon> seen/see.
<_ruiner_> hmmmmmmm......
<^Myrmidon> hat's crazy.  I think the same temperature cool down can be achieved via air cooling ala refrigeration.
04:20pm
<^Myrmidon> ERrhm, that's.
<HickServ> i'd think a lot of celeron 300's would be surplus 
<_ruiner_> you'd have problems with condensation would you not?
<HickServ> i'l call some places and see if i can get some old 300's
<_QZ> HickServ: http://fastgraphics.com/articles/99/01/d-celeron/index.html
<_QZ> 300's suck, no cache
<HickServ> what is that?
<_ruiner_> yeah
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Read error to HickServ[209-68-229-50.dialup.cust.tfb.com]: Connection reset by peer)
<_ruiner_> and P III's suck.....serial #'s
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<HickServ> :(
<HickServ> >:(
<AlonzoTG> only one answer
<AlonzoTG> 21264
<_QZ> plus p3's are frequency locked
<AlonzoTG> =)))))))))))
<_ruiner_> ooh, new info
<AlonzoTG> PhUcK InTeL
* _ruiner_/#tunes locks the tidbit away
* _ruiner_/#tunes wants a few K7's
<_QZ> power pc
<HickServ> well i odn't know if i feel confident enough to drill a chip
<AlonzoTG> get the PGA version and a converter card.
<_QZ> the drilling is the easy part
<tcn> get a k6-2
<HickServ> what is the hard part?
<abi> rumour has it the hard part is how to detach the client from the real server
<_QZ> u just need a 0.5 mm hand drill, NOT power drill
<HickServ> oh i got a dremil tool
<HickServ> i could do it
<_QZ> no
<tcn> hand cranked, hs
<_QZ> hand drill, that means it uses NO power
<Fare> ppc sucks
<Fare> ARM
<Fare> MIPS
<HickServ> ay
<tcn> yeah
<Fare> Alpha
<_QZ> that way u cant slip and drill clean thru
<tcn> 1802
<_QZ> the hard part is the soldering to the top of the cpu
<HickServ> hrm
<_QZ> cuz the pins are 0.5mm and the green area around them is conductive so the solder will run over it
<HickServ> well my neighbor is really good with soldering and crap
<HickServ> screw upgrading though
<_QZ> then there is the wire that must be soldered to the edge contact
<_QZ> if the wire is too big it will break off when u insert the celeron into the slot1
04:30pm
<HickServ> i don't think i feel confident enough to do that
<_QZ> ah c'mon man
<_QZ> ill do it for u for $100
<HickServ> hahaha
<tcn> just save the trouble and get a k6
<HickServ> things don't go that easily qz
<_QZ> the k6 sucks
<HickServ> my mom is picky with MY money
<tcn> k6-2 and k6-3?
<_QZ> HickServ: i have a bachelor in EE
<HickServ> qz my mom is not gonna go for this shit
<HickServ> im 14 fucking years old
<HickServ> "yeah im gonna have some guy i barely know set up my dual celernojn  lsytem for me "
<^Myrmidon> HickServ: good luck with BuenOS. :P
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (dinner)
<HickServ> uh huh
<HickServ> i hope you were not sarcastic
<^Myrmidon> I took a year of PASCAL and C++ in high school, and I still have a difficult time with assembly. :(
<HickServ> assembly is easy
<HickServ> it's only hard if you tell yourself it is hard
<^Myrmidon> Have you turned into a self-help guru now?
<_QZ> HickServ: everyone here trusts me ;) and besides u can have myr kick my ass if i screw up or something
<HickServ> sorry qz it just won't work out
<_QZ> c'mon man i need some test celerons to try it out on before i do it to mine :)
<HickServ> no sorry
<HickServ> it'll be hard just to convince my mom to let me doit
<_QZ> did u read my api?
<HickServ> i started
<HickServ> but my brother needed to use the computer
<_QZ> btw, it might be easier to read the entire thing if u save it to a file and read it in a text editor
<Fare> tcn: 1802 *sucked* bigtime
<HickServ> yeah
<Fare> tcn: 6502 was *way* better
<_QZ> Fare: tcn is not here
<Fare> 1802 sucks altogether
<HickServ> hmmmmmm
04:40pm
<HickServ> dammit nasm won't accept .code/.data/.stack labels
<_QZ> haha
<HickServ> is there a way to make it acccept them?
<_QZ> no
<Fare> try just code, data, stack
<HickServ> ok
04:50pm
<HickServ> if i use dual celeron atleast buenOS will be smp capable
<_QZ> only if u code in smp support and make buenos apps multithreaded
<HickServ> i know
<HickServ> im reading the system programming manuals
<_ruiner_> where's that list of hardware specs sites?
<_QZ> the pentium pro manual tells u howto do smp
<_QZ> bbiaf
<HickServ> laterz qz 
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[MCCXXI.rdyn.saunalahti.fi])
05:00pm
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<HickServ> this may seem like a dumb question and show that im not that experienced but what is the difference between mov and movl?
<smkl> movl is move long. mov is just some mov or something (i don't really know asm)
05:10pm
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (more linux hacking)
<smkl> has somebody checked metaprl?
05:30pm
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<HickServ> this is the way we compile the kernel compile the kernel compile the kernel
<HickServ> :)))
<HickServ> wtf would #x mean in c?
<^Myrmidon> HickServ: do you realize the channel conversation here is logged and categorized by date and time?
<HickServ> yes i do
<^Myrmidon> Just a reminder. :)
<HickServ> yeah
<HickServ> well my c skills aren't that great
<smkl> do you realize CIA, FBI and GRU agents read all the logs and hack your machines and install cameras to your house?
<HickServ> yeah
<HickServ> they have pictures of me masturbating
05:50pm
<^Myrmidon> Who doesn't?
<HickServ> :)
06:00pm
<HickServ> are you aking fun of me mymidon somewhere else?
<HickServ> making
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<Myrmidon^> I wish Aros didn't enforce eight hour usage limits. :(
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<HickServ> hmmm
<HickServ> this is strange
<Myrmidon^> HickServ: IMPO pasted everything you said to him. :)
<HickServ> yes
<HickServ> im glad
<Myrmidon^> That of which, is untrue.
<Myrmidon^> But believe what you wish.
<HickServ> ok :)
<HickServ> i'd appreciate it if you wouldn't talk shit on me behind my back
<Myrmidon^> I'm not.
<Myrmidon^> IMPO is just trying to be conniving and stir up controversy.
<Myrmidon^> It's in his nature.
06:20pm
<HickServ> well it's funny how he knew about my movl/mov thing
<Myrmidon^> I pasted what you said.
<Myrmidon^> Is that so wrong?
<HickServ> yes
<HickServ> but the disticntion between right and wrong is non-existant in my eyes
<HickServ> just watch what you say ok?
<Myrmidon^> Existent. :)
<HickServ> uh huh
<HickServ> you wanna talk about my spelling huh?
!services1.openprojects.net!! PANIC! buffer = :ralf QUIT :ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations
<HickServ> why don't you concern yourself wiht other matters
<HickServ> yes i can't spell
<Myrmidon^> No, it's just a commonly misspelled word that people try to phonetically spell out. :(
<Myrmidon^> That's ok.
<Myrmidon^> Just pointing it out.
<HickServ> ok fine
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ....)
<HickServ> let's just have no more talk about BuenOS being bad ok?
<Myrmidon^> Ok.
<Myrmidon^> I apologize if I've made you feel bad. :(
<HickServ> :(
* HickServ/#tunes starts to cry
<Myrmidon^> <IMPO> so what
<Myrmidon^> <IMPO> i like making people feel bad
<Myrmidon^> He's evil. :(
<HickServ> you just figured that out?
<Myrmidon^> No, but you sure took offense when IMPO was using his conniving ways to make you feel bad.
<Myrmidon^> That's all.
<HickServ> well yes
<HickServ> i take talk about my baby very seriously :)
06:30pm
* AlonzoTG/#tunes needs to implement
<HickServ> hi al
<HickServ> dammit this nasm fux0r won't compile
<HickServ> model small
<HickServ> data
<HickServ> code
<HickServ> main:
<HickServ> mov dx,0x1234
<HickServ> end main
<HickServ> what am i missing?!?!?!
07:00pm
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us647.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations hcf!" :-)
<HickServ> <HickServ> dammit this nasm fux0r won't compile
<HickServ> <HickServ> model small
<HickServ> <HickServ> data
<HickServ> <HickServ> code
<HickServ> <HickServ> main:
<HickServ> <HickServ> mov dx,0x1234
<HickServ> <HickServ> end main
<HickServ> <HickServ> what am i missing?!?!?!
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
<HickServ> and nasm won't even accept .code and crap
<HickServ> grrrrrr
<AlonzoTG> u mean it won't assemble....
<AlonzoTG> I havn't messed with ASM in about a year...
<HickServ> im talking about nasm
<HickServ> im used to tasm
07:10pm
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org])
-:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<hcf> seems someone hasnt rtfm ;)
<AlonzoTG> good call Hcf
<AlonzoTG> =)
<hcf> AlonzoTG: ur friends w/ billyboof rite?
<AlonzoTG> B00F?   No I just shout his name when he appears
<hcf> is his os called PriOS or ProOS?
<AlonzoTG> dunno
<hcf> k
<hcf> AlonzoTG: do u hav any os/pl links that rnt on ur pages?
07:20pm
<AlonzoTG> a few that should be up but netscape keeps deleting my bookmark file :(((((((
<hcf> any os project links that rnt on the tunes os page?
<AlonzoTG> probably not
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> tunes is thourough
07:30pm
-:- PaddyM [pfm2@PADDYM.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #tunes
<PaddyM> Hey I was thinking of trying out Retro.  What is it going to do when I run it?  Is it safe to just try it out?
<AlonzoTG> you have to rawcopy it onto a floppy...
<AlonzoTG> I gather that it doesn't do much...
<AlonzoTG> say, what is your intrest in OS?
<AlonzoTG> developer or just don't like microsoft?
<PaddyM> Well, I'm a programmer.  I don't know much about low-level programming, but I agree entirely that software is written as well as it could be given the speed of current hardware.
<AlonzoTG> thats good
<AlonzoTG> what languages do you write?
<PaddyM> ack, insert a "not" in between "is written"
<AlonzoTG> I was about to ask that.
<PaddyM> I usually use C, or C++.  I mainly do stuff for college.  I haven't really done any big projects on my own.
<AlonzoTG> thats okay...
<AlonzoTG> what level are you in college?
<PaddyM> I also used this language ML which I thought was pretty cool, but I don't fully understand it.
<AlonzoTG> aaah
<PaddyM> I am going to be a Junior.
<AlonzoTG> someone suggested that I use ML for the prototype of my os
<AlonzoTG> hmm
07:40pm
<AlonzoTG> I'm not sure what year I am I have been in college for 3 years but haven't yet passed sophomore English. =(
<PaddyM> English is annoying.
<AlonzoTG> the specifications for my prototype are at atc.peon.net/~cyborg/OS/docs/specs.txt
<AlonzoTG> please give me your thoughts about implomenting them...
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 22 hrs 17 min 40 secs
<AlonzoTG> they were orrigionally written for 286 real mode but I have been talked into using a 32 bit segment in P-mode.
<Tril> ATG don't take me too seriously on that ML suggestion.. use your own judgement
<hcf> Tril: hav u seen my suggestions from ~06:40am?
<Tril> hcf not today. I'm reading irclogs from early yesterday (tcn+fare discuss designing a persistent store for retro) and then after that I'll read the day before that, where you and water and fare discuss objects and stuff
<Tril> what did you talk about at 6:40 am?
<hcf> <hcf> perhaps we need a monthly message to the main mlist to remind ppl of the other lists
<hcf> <hcf> it'd also be nice if the other mlists were mentioned on the mlists web page
<Tril> hcf mentioning the mlists on the mlists page requires about 5 minutse of dirty HTML work, I'm too lazy to do it. I'm sure you could figure out how to copy the entries for the other lists .. or i'll do it in a minute, if you bug me
<hcf> i'l giv it a shot
<Tril> cool :)
<Tril> ask if u have any q's about CVS
<hcf> oh, cvs
<hcf> well, il do the html, u put it in cvs
07:50pm
<Tril> Bah, you need a copy of the html to edit, why not use a checked-out copy from Cvs?
<Tril> hello :)
<Tril> I should document the bespin notification system somewhere..
<hcf> i'd like it disabled
<Tril> hcf: you can only control the list of people YOU want to be notified about.
<Tril> and it's not a significant delay on login, now that bespin is a pentium
<hcf> i know, i looked at the script
<Tril> not many people use it..
<PaddyM> Well, I don't know a whole lot about OSes.  I'm taking an OS course next semester some time.  What language were you thinking of using?
<Tril> Ahoy PaddyM at Carnegie Mellon..
<hcf> Tril: whats tunes-preapproved?
<Tril>  PaddyM: Retro basically just runs Forth right now.
<Tril> hcf: anyone on any tunes list, or in tunes-preapproved, can post to any tunes list. Anyone else (nonsubscribers) gets their post sent to me to moderate.  The tunes-preapproved is a list of members' alternate e-mail addresses, plus anyone who posts a lot but reads the list thru web instead of email..
<PaddyM> Tril: I am not familiar with Forth.  What type of language is it?
<Tril> PaddyM, forth is a stack-manipulation language, with very simple commands that combine to be very powerful. You make your own commands that become "words" in the language.
08:00pm
<Tril> hcf: where did you find tunes-preapproved? are you sneaking around in the filesystem? :)
<hcf> /var/lib/majordomo/lists
<AlonzoTG> I would never have thought to look there...
<Tril> i bet you picked that up off of irc
<AlonzoTG> =(
<AlonzoTG> Linux drives me batty
<hcf> tunes-announce doesnt hav tunes-all-outgoing@bespin.cx in it
<Tril> if you see a .cx it should be changed to .dhs.org!
<Tril> the announce list is misunderstood. I said annoucnements should be posted both to -announce and tunes. But some people are subscribed to both. Well, their fault if they get duplicates!
<hcf> oic
<Tril> Maybe announce should have tunes-outgoing subscribed to it.
<Tril> any others that tunes-all isn't in?
<hcf> still checking
<hcf> i looked at -ann to see what was ther
<Tril> lll does not have tunes-all. Should it?
<hcf> it should be used for every news item
<hcf> lll is dead isnt it?
<Tril> no. Retro discussion belongs there.
<hcf> yes then
<Tril> the news can be directed to announce when the news system is automized.
<Tril> yes what? lll is dead?
<hcf> yes retro discussions -> lll
<_QZ> i just watched "saving ryan's privates" and it was a good show. very bloody
<hcf> and yes tunes-all in lll
<hcf> Tril: ur changing .cx -> .dhs.org for the mlist addrs, right?
<Tril> I just watched Episode 1: The Phantom Menace, and it was better than I thought it would be, but it really can't be judged separately from the ones that haven't been made yet, so I'll just wait.
<Tril> hcf, I'm going to change every occurence of bespin.cx in the subscriber lists to bespin.dhs.org, yes.  The lists still work for bespin.cx, just that isn't our official name now.
08:10pm
<_QZ> what is a massive multiplayer game?
<Myrmidon^> Ultima Online? :P
<Myrmidon^> EverQuest?
<Myrmidon^> Heh.
<PaddyM> _QZ: Archmage
<_QZ> yes i know of tanurus and everquest but i have never seen them
<_QZ> i wasnt asking what games are massive multiplayer, i was asking what it means
<Tril> everquest looks boring, I don't understand what people see in it.
<Tril> _QZ, number of players in the same world
<Tril> like hundreds or thousands, is massive
<Tril> quake is not
<PaddyM> Tril: hey for this one class I wrote a simple stack language using RPN.  You could make new functions and such.  It seems like it is somewhat similar to Fort, although I don't think you could write an OS in it.
<_QZ> these games have hundreds or players?
<Myrmidon^> _QZ: yes.
<Myrmidon^> Ultima Online's servers accommodate thousands.
<_QZ> are tehy graphical?
<Tril> PaddyM: you reinvented forth. congratulations, forth is RPN
<Myrmidon^> Yes.
<_QZ> what kinda game play?
<Tril> rpg
<Tril> all massive multiplayers are rpg so far, i think
<Tril> you can't have action, too much bandwidth
<_QZ> ya
<Tril> no 3-D, either :)  You can make the first one :)
<Tril> ok, UUO is 3-d in the sense of stuff looks 3d
<Tril> PaddyM: See also PostScript, it's basically a dialect of forth
<Myrmidon^> UO's view is isometric.
<Myrmidon^> But it's only faux 3D. :P
<hcf> isnt slang RPN and not forth like?
<Tril> does UO brak the game world down into sections, like eq?
08:20pm
<Tril> hcf, s-lang? you mean the unix library?
<Myrmidon^> Yes.  Pretty much.
<hcf> jed, slrn, et al
<hcf> their extension lang
<PaddyM> Tril: really?  That's interesting.
<Tril> hcf, no idea on what s-lang is like, but checking my installation it looks like lynx, mutt, dosemu, and apache all have dependencies registered on it.
<Tril> (in aaddition to jed)
<hcf> i know s-lang is slrn's and jed's form of elisp, not sure what the rest use it for
<Tril> config scripts, maybe
<Tril> anyways, I see you writing about taking the project more public. Water wanted that, too. did he say so?
<Tril> and you didn't like the meeting?
<hcf> it got foobar'd
<hcf> and as i recall nothing was totally agreed upon
<Tril> oh, yeah, core came and talked about Clementine
<Tril> But that shouldn't be an interruption. Maybe meetings can be in a separate channel next time, so we dont have to ask anyone to leave #tunes if they talk about something else.
<hcf> yeah, #tunes-meeting
<hcf> so r u thinking of having a meeting?
<AlonzoTG> I have decided that while the tunes
<Tril> We talked about the web pages. That's what the meeting was for.  We had a result, there is now a tunes-members-writable directory called ~bineng/html to work on the proposed page layout.
<AlonzoTG> -review project is really nice and convienient I disagree with the philosophy it was based uppon
<Tril> hcf: I don't have an idae for one, do you?
<hcf> not really i guess
<hcf> plus its hard to get everyone on irc at the same time
<Tril> hcf: you wanted decisions to be made, I think that is more possible if we now follow the charter and have one maintainer per subproject.. we decided on those, now, but just didn't update the page yet.
08:30pm
<Tril> Alonzo: What philosophy ? (Or, what part of the philosophy?)
<Tril> hcf, the mailing list is fine for making decisions!
<hcf> the trouble seems to be ...
<Tril> you don't complain there enough, from what it seems that you are thinking.
<hcf> the ppl to task/subproject ratio
<AlonzoTG> The current philosophy is an idealist philosophy: Read everything, enter it into a database, then run a search function to find the best...
<AlonzoTG> The problem is that you will never complete the database because more is being added every day!
<hcf> i prefer using irc to complain, quicker responses
<hcf> and keeps my mind on it
<Tril> Alonzo: IF we get enough volunteers, we will get it closer to being complete.
<hcf> AlonzoTG: help out ;)
<AlonzoTG> Let me propose a pragmatic philosophy: 
<AlonzoTG> Define in precice terms what exactly you want then select the first method that you find that meets that requirement.
<Tril> AlonzoTG: Well, I pretty much had given up on the Review project for finding a base to write tunes from. But it is still useful for gathering research related to tunes.  
<hcf> and other ppl love it ;)
<Tril> right, it gets lots of hits.
<AlonzoTG> mee too!!!
<Tril> and other sites copy it without permission, too. That's gotta be a compliment.
<Tril> If they just asked, we could automatically mirror it to them, then theirs would be up to date.
<AlonzoTG> hehehe
<Tril> Also, Review should continue looking for a base to write tunes from, in parallel to me giving up on it.
<Tril> anyways...hcf.. come on out with it what decision do you want to be made?
<Tril> more people working together?
<Tril> subproject contributions go up?
<hcf> status info
<hcf> better ppl to task
<Tril> ok, status should be on the subprojects page...i'll volunteer to actively maintain that, for now.
<Tril> what do you mean by that last comment
<hcf> which seems to me would be a motivator thing to do (beholder's job afaik)
<hcf> u and Fare hav too much to do
08:40pm
<hcf> some of which u'd rather hav someone else do
<hcf> but u do it since noone voluteers for it
<Tril> hcf the "consistent web site" is not opposed to individual maintainers
<Tril> since the consistency will be enforced by meta-data policies together with scripts.
<hcf> ppl need the framework 1st
<Tril> how many separate projects do you see in tunes?
<Tril> research, prototype development, model design, ...?
<Tril> discussion
<hcf> root (meta stuff, site, admin)
<hcf> hll/lll
<hcf> concepts
<hcf> review
<Tril> is that in addition to the ones i just listed, or instead?
<hcf> they probly meld together
<hcf> like concepts->glossary, lll/hll->review(pl)
<Tril> research/concepts.  model design/hll,  prototype/lll.  The only one you left out is discussion, by which I meant Beholder's proposal to change TUNES into a discussion forum.
<hcf> discussion<->review
<hcf> also
<Tril> oh right discussion/review
<hcf> "outreach" (got a better term for this?)
<Tril> advocacy, sir.
<Tril> (Or commonly known as Marketing)
<hcf> thats it
<Tril> well, actually, half of marketing.
<Tril> the other half of marketing is choosing the purpose of the project in the first place, and its design.
08:50pm
<hcf> evangelism
<Tril> OK, I agree, first we need to have a "frame for work" and then only when that's ready, some recruitment.
<Tril> But it must be carefully channeled, so as not to spark interest which will cause useless debate and no volunteers for work.
<Tril> hcf: I rather believe in quality of the product being its own evangelism.
<hcf> bringing ppl to our osdev resources is saving them from a lonely hell ;)
<hcf> (tho review/etc and not tunes)
<Tril> yes
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<Tril> the os-help, and review can be advocated as much as you want (if the server exceeds capacity we'll get some mirrors)
<Tril> no slashdot without warning, please
<hcf> what happened to beholder's (i think it was him) web svr?
<hcf> dont worry, i wont do any slashdot stuff
<hcf> the little bit that i'v done has been efnet/#asm
<hcf> which brought us lar1 and someone else
<Tril> the unios server idea died, I think.
<Tril> they never got it set up
<hcf> if the need arises
<Tril> I.e. the admin never got it set up, and so beholder never was given access
<hcf> i'm able to use nerd-herd.net
<Tril> got root?
<hcf> yep
<Tril> what kind of connect
<Tril> bandwidth
<hcf> t1 i think
<hcf> its at psouth.net
09:00pm
<Tril> did they ever fix the mail for that domain?
<Tril> nerd-herd
<hcf> not sure
<hcf> jjk (aka farce) is usaully quite busy w/ psouth business
<Tril> how experienced are you at unix administration?
<hcf> not much
<Tril> i discourage putting glossary (or anything) into wiki, SQL should be tried first
<hcf> mail seems still broken
<hcf> i concure
<hcf> as we all know, im not a fan of wiki
<hcf> anyway
<hcf> review, tunes-all, tunes-announce, tunes-specs, unios, xcom dont hav .info files
<Tril> .info files should mirror descriptions in /list/<listname>/info.html
<Tril> (which also should be created if missing)
<Tril> (/pub/list if you are on locally)
<hcf> there should be an info link in the browse...post navbar for each list
<Tril> err, /pub/tunes/list and /pub/list variously
<Tril> to generalize, the meta-information we need is a short description, long description, plus everything in the navbar
<Tril> additionally the address of the list owner (me in most/all cases)
<hcf> now, which lists to add to the colab page
<hcf> os-help, os-ideas?
<Tril> no, those are not part of tunes
<Tril> ok, um, maybe put a link to them at the end
<Tril> they already have a page.  you can link to the one on qz's site or the one on mine (his has better colors)
<hcf> the lisp lists rnt a part of tunes either
<Tril> hcf: look at http://tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma
<Tril> that shows ALL lists on the server.
<Tril> all archived lists, that is
<hcf> http://bespin.cx/os-list.html
09:10pm
<PaddyM> l8r all
<Tril> bye
<hcf> hmm, http://tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma is good
-:- PaddyM [pfm2@PADDYM.RES.CMU.EDU] has left #tunes []
* Tril/#TUNES just started looking for something, forgot what it was mid-search, kept looking, and found it anyway !! YAY
<hcf> heh
<hcf> what was it?
<Tril> the mail I sent proposing to remove Ultima as maintainer of review.
<Tril> It was sent last Wed, I said he has a week to answer
<hcf> he hasnt answered?
<Tril> I haven't heard from him for months. He didn't reply to my e-mail a long time ago about what he was doing to review.
<Tril> anyway, it's been over a week
<Tril> so the posiution is open
<hcf> i havnt seen him on irc recently (a week or so)
<hcf> perhaps he lost net access
<Tril> you saw him as recently as a week?
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh1-port16.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> havnt seen
<hcf> billyboof: hoy
<hcf> billyboof: is ur os project names PriOS or ProOS?
<hcf> s/names/named/
<billyboof> proos....
<Tril> hcf: looks like he logged in May 18th, that's not too long ago, but he still should have written something about his progress by now.
<billyboof> or anything else i may think of before it's too late :) ... i'm really not too creative with names :(
<hcf> Tril: currently the happenstance way we get status info is quite terrible
<Tril> that's because nobody actively monitors the status
<Tril> and seeks out the status and puts it in one place
<Tril> or, there is no system/policy for members to update their status
09:20pm
<Tril> do you agree?
<hcf> yep
<hcf> which the frame4work will cure, yes?
<Tril> theoretically i could add a line in the table in members.html and request everyone to keep it updated.
<hcf> billyboof: check abi's factoid for 'ProOS' and 'billyboof', see if they're coorent. use /msg abi proos?
<hcf> s/factoid/factoids/
<Tril> the framework you mention would be if we learn SQL and php3 and convert the entire page, including the member info. And maybe have a web-login for members to edit data.
* iStormy/#Tunes twiddles his sore thumbs.
<Tril> is it cold in Maine?
<hcf> no, its too hot lately
* hcf/#tunes misses winter
<hcf> Tril: why do u ask?
<Tril> it's supposed to be cold in Maine :)
<hcf> its likely cooler now than other states
<Tril> we had one really hot day (>80 F) 2 mondays ago i think and now we're back to rain and in the 50s
<hcf> im only happy when its fall
<billyboof> hcf: cool... :)
<hcf> is SQL/PHP3 the common way to properly do site frameworks?
<Tril> Zope also looks good, but it's not totally free
<Tril> we really need TUNES, but i'm hoping sql/php3 will be ok for now.
<hcf> such an ersatz solution tho
<iStormy> be happy
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason)
<Tril> inferior to what we want, yes, that's why i said TUNES
09:30pm
<hcf> hmm, MOT-2 - Programming-free DB/Web framework for Apache/PHP/MySQL @ http://tomato.nvgc.vt.edu/~hroberts/mot/
<Tril> add-ons to SQL/PHP3 are welcome, too :)
<hcf> mot-2 seems to be a frontend to apache,sql,php3. which has just now reached functional state
<hcf> oh well
<hcf> Tril: which sql do u prefer?
<Tril> nice definition of the GPL. "you have to share any changes you make under the GPL as well."  That is false, you only have to share changes to GPL'd software if you distribute the changed version.
<Tril> err, you're only bound by the license if you redistribute
<Tril> postgres
<Tril> mysql and msql are non-debian-free so I'll try postgres first
<hcf> Tril: r postgres and php3 inst'd on bespin?
<Tril> yup it all should be up and running. sql daemon, php3 apache module, etc
<Tril> so we have no excuse
<hcf> how about posting to the list for assistance?
<Tril> hmm
<_QZ> isnt it possible to extract a single file from a tgz?
<Tril> _QZ sure but you need to type the full path+ filename exactly
<_QZ> how
<Tril> tar xf file.tar file/path/foo.doc
<_QZ> oh u dont need any options for ?
<Tril> and it extracts to that path too
<Tril> i dont think there are options for it
<Tril> just tack on the list of names you want to extract
09:40pm
<Tril> hcf: if i post for assistance, someone will probably do it wrong, and then they will feel bad that they volunteered
<Tril> fare and I are very picky
<hcf> im not saying to say "hey someone do this by urself"
<hcf> im saying, say "hey someone help me w/ this"
<Tril> at least let me learn the basics first, then I can ask for help and be able to tell them how to get started.
-:- _QZx [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<Tril> _QZ: are all the files transferred to bespin?
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (kernel panic)
<_QZx> no
<Tril> hcf, ok, but since I haven't done anything, I can't say that.
<Tril> there's another thing I have to do this summer: read the ultra-devel list archives
<hcf> either way, if 2 ppl r doing, 1 will be less capable
<hcf> s/doing/doing it/
<Tril> the first parts will require root, i'm sure (if we're using MOT-2)
* Tril/#TUNES subscribes to the mot list
<Tril> oops, gotta add dufrp to members.html
<Tril> (he filled out the form yesterday)
-:- SignOff _QZx: #TUNES (_QZx has no reason)
-:- _QZ_ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<_QZ_> uhh, i cant change to my nick
<Tril> _QZ is still here
<_QZ_> uhh
<Tril> just not in the channel
<hcf> not for me
<hcf> oh wait, yeah he is
<Tril> my /whois says _QZ is around
<Tril> even responds to ping
09:50pm
<_QZ_> thats me
<Tril> use the recover command
<Tril> oh wait, you never registered! Oh well!
<_QZ_> the whois is hooked to this client but i dont have the nick??? wtf
<Tril> qz you probably are connected twice
<Tril> type /server
<Tril> bitchx supports multiple servers
<Myrmidon^> Does "wedontcare@qzx.com" actually exist? :P
<_QZ_> no
<Tril> probably anythingyouwant@qzx.com goes to his mailbox
<Myrmidon^> D'oh. :)
<_QZ_> but xchat didnt use that ircname
<_QZ_> so that whois is from this connection right now
<_QZ_> Tril: nope it bounces
<Myrmidon^> Friday night, and nothing to do.
<_QZ_> i only have something like 19 active usernames on qzx.com
<_QZ_> Myrmidon^: when is the final chapter of ds9 on here?
<Myrmidon^> I don't know, never followed DS9. :P
<_QZ_> damnit
<Myrmidon^> Sorry.
<Tril> qz do ya get the paramount channel (UPN)?
<Myrmidon^> Yep, we do.
<_QZ_> maybe ill goto that trek convention tomorrow and ask someone there :)
<_QZ_> Tril: yes
<Tril> probably tomorrow at 8pm then
<hcf> _QZ_: u need a satdish
<_QZ_> dsp9 is on fox here
<_QZ_> voyager is on upn
<Tril> check the tv station web pages
<_QZ_> i checked tvguide.com
<_QZ_> quite unhelpful tho
<Tril> fox?? they might show it on Monday. hmm.
<hcf> _QZ_: try vidiot.com
<_QZ_> hcf: heh
<Tril> I mean the particular web page for the tv station it is on. your local fox carrier
<Myrmidon^> I wish Aros would bump the 8-hour time limit up a few hours. :P
<_QZ_> Myrmidon^: why?
<Myrmidon^> I'd like to download a Linux distribution sometime in a failed swoop.
<Tril> you can get slackware in 8 hours :)
<Myrmidon^> I guess 8-hours is fair enough, though.
<Myrmidon^> I'm downloading Slackware 4.0 now.
<_QZ_> Myrmidon^: order redhat 6 on cd
<_QZ_> Myrmidon^: its free
<_QZ_> except for shipping
<Tril> As long as you don't get the disk sets you don't need (Emacs, TeX)
<Myrmidon^> _QZ_: yeah, I might do that.
<_QZ_> lsl.com
<Myrmidon^> CheapBytes have good deals too.
<Myrmidon^> Ok, I'll check it out.  Thanks. :)
<_QZ_> 2 cd set for free
<Myrmidon^> So far I've bought the boxed RedHat 5.2 Deluxe Edition and SuSE Linux 6.1.
* Tril/#TUNES suggests Debian
<Myrmidon^> I just like experimenting between various distributions.  I find a lot of pros and cons between each.  :P
<_QZ_> what amazes me is that no one has written an easy way to compile a kernel for idiots that they are trying to target linux for
<Tril> _QZ  make xconfig is pretty idiotic
10:00pm
<Myrmidon^> Well, HOWTO documents really simplify the process of learning Linux.
<Tril> that is, the standard way to do it (make menuconfig, make xconfig)
<Myrmidon^> That's practically how I learned when I first started out with Slackware.
<_QZ_> no im talking about something like a control panel that u can pick yer devices from and configure them
<Myrmidon^> Oh. :)
<Tril> i thought redhat has that
<_QZ_> an idiot has no idea howto compile akernel
<Myrmidon^> RedHat has linuxconf.
<Myrmidon^> It's useful...
<Myrmidon^> To an extent.
<Tril> a very small one, from what I saw
* Tril/#TUNES doesn't know how to compile a kernel. I let gcc do that
<hcf> whats the hp for postgres?
<_QZ_> shutup u know what i mean
<Tril> postgresql.org
<Tril> i'm butchering it, i think postgres is the original and postgresql is the free version
<hcf> abi: postgres is also at postgresql.org
<abi> okay, hcf.
<Tril> there is probably a better site that one seems really slow
<Tril> try postgresql.nextpath.com
<Tril> looks good enough to me in lynx,i'll stop looking for that for now
<hcf> abi: PostgreSQL is a Object-Relational DBMS derived from the Berkeley Postgres system. at www.postgresql.org or postgresql.nextpath.com
10:10pm
<hcf> PostgreSQL/PHP tutorial, Linux, SQL, and the Web @ http://www.bigfoot.com/~charles_fisher/uw/018.html
10:20pm
<Tril> ciao
* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
10:30pm
-:- SignOff _QZ_: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: )
-:- _QZ_ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
-:- _QZ_ has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES http://www.tunes.org
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
<_QZ_> wow my stupid gnome panel is using 25meg
<_QZ_> how does a bar with a couple icon buttons use 25meg
11:00pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us647.javanet.com])
-:- SignOff _QZ_: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
-:- jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes
<jdl> Anybody here?
<jdl> ... guess not
<jdl> abi: Arrow?
<abi> i think Arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should.
<jdl> abi: type system
<jdl> abi: type system?
<abi> jdl: no idea
<jdl> abi: types?
<abi> types are sets, you can do set union on two types
<jdl> abi: type?
<abi> it has been said that type is really Type_n where n is an integer.
<jdl> arrow?
<abi> rumour has it arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should
<jdl> prism?
<jdl> prism is a test
<jdl> prism?
<abi> rumour has it prism is a test
<jdl> abi: forget prism
<abi> jdl: I forgot prism
<jdl> abi: Prism is a way to program with multiple specialized, interoperable languages.
<jdl> prism?
<abi> i think prism is a way to program with multiple specialized, interoperable languages.
<jdl> good girl, abi
<abi> :)
<jdl> 'night, loglurkers!
-:- SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- Myrmidon^ [ubiquity@dm7-17.slc.aros.net] has left #TUNES []
11:30pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0605
IRC log ended Sat Jun  5 00:00:00 1999