IRC log started Tue Jun 8 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0608 -:- Manoj [srivasta@tiamat.ametro.net] has joined #tunes -:- Manoj [srivasta@tiamat.ametro.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- |Myrmidon [ubiquity@dm7-23.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes <|Myrmidon> Hi. 03:30am -:- SignOff |Myrmidon: #TUNES (Ping timeout for |Myrmidon[dm7-23.slc.aros.net]) -:- smkl [sami@CMXXII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-053.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-220-226.s480.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[CMXXII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi]) -:- electron [jose@remc.biol.sc.edu] has joined #Tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations electron!" :-) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (reboot.) leave -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-224-245.s245.tnt6.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- electron [jose@remc.biol.sc.edu] has left #Tunes [] -:- smkl [sami@MCCCLXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes 07:00am -:- Netjoined: lucas.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-224-245.s245.tnt6.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-053.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (smkl has no reason) -:- smkl [sami@MCCCLXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup357.nni.com] has joined #tunes hello s_r -:- s_rr [s_rr@phila-dialup475.nni.com] has joined #tunes 08:30am -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup357.nni.com]) ole, sami! hi Fare lo Fare ho! 08:40am Fare how goes work on Tunes? !Bhaal:*! Anyone alive have a chat to Md, he wants to setup a server, I would assume in .it !Bhaal:*! Alive opers I mean !aphzen:*! Bhaal, lilo idling ? !Bhaal:*! *shrug* I think so... 08:50am -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-053.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes -:- s_rr [s_rr@phila-dialup475.nni.com] has left #tunes [] Anyone here? what work on Tunes? Tunes is fun! Beh: preliminary version of my paper in http://tunes.org/~fare/tmp/implement1.ps Fare: ??? 09:10am Fare: Do you have an HTML version? (I don't have a Postscript Viewer) 09:20am -:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp097.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes Hey Ruiner <_ruiner_> hi beholder <_ruiner_> whats up? Not too much :) Doing some work on a game engine <_ruiner_> what kind of game? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us240.javanet.com] has joined #tunes RPG <_ruiner_> sweet Hey HCF <_ruiner_> they don't have enough of 'em anymore Beholder: hoy <_ruiner_> stupid first person shooters...... Run: No, there are very few. Either of you know how to use pointers to point to objects? (I'm new to C++ :) <_ruiner_> hmmmm...... * smkl/#tunes is also making an RGP smkl :) Beh: no HTML version, but LaTeX smkl: Seems to be the trend lately :) AObj *obj = new AObj("el33t"); obj->use(); delete obj; Fare: Both my machines are currently Unix-free (working) :( Is there a LaTeX viewer for Windows? notepad.exe Fare: Ok :) Fare: URL? somebody said URL was on the review page!!! abi should know it, though I guess the figures will be hard to read, tho abi: forget url hcf: I forgot url you should definitely install a postscript viewer for windows <_ruiner_> ummm..... <_ruiner_> beholder.... run: Yes? maybe PDF? fare: Ok, I think ghostscript has a windows port also <_ruiner_> whats the url you're looking for? I *know* there is a port of ghostscript to windows Fare: PDF is fine and there's still acroread to read the PDF version (just uploading) run: The URL for his document in LaTeX format, but the PDF will be better <_ruiner_> ah Fare: Where'd you get the PDF authoring tool? 09:30am /msg dpkg !find ps2pdf -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Read error to smkl[MCCCLXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi]: EOF from client) -:- smkl [sami@MCCCLXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes smkl: wb Fare: $ ps2ascii implement1.ps Error: /undefined in ch-xoff 09:40am hcf: gv implement1.ps hcf: gv is your friend less implement1.tex less is your friend abi: less? less is my friend * Fare/#Tunes pats abi Fare: wouldnt that be viewing as ps? i want text -:- smkl_ [sami@MCCCLXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Read error to smkl[MCCCLXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi]: EOF from client) -:- smkl_ is now known as smkl 09:50am -:- SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-053.m4-1.osh.ican.net]: EOF from client) results of IOCCC will be announced tomorrow -:- binEng [Anders@dialup210-2-46.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes 10:00am -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup210-2-46.swipnet.se]) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (changing servers) hcf: why text? why not the figures won't show i have no intent of printing it out -:- smkl [sami@MCCCLXXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes to understand the article, you need see the figures... then ->html,gif do you mean stuff like this:a @| >[d]*[o]F @->[r]*[o]A *[o]* a' @| >[d]*[o]F c @->[r]*[o]C *[o]* c' yup that's what i got with the latex to html converter i have time to use it, then hum. You might need some additional files to be found in lambdaND.latex.tar.gz ... 10:10am * Fare/#Tunes doesn't dare look at the sources of LaTeX2HTML i use hevea hevea won't do figures, afaik. latex2html got horribly mixed up between figures... 10:20am if you know of a better way to achieve similar diagrams, do tell me! * Fare/#Tunes doesn't like *tex, anyway * smkl/#tunes doesn't have *tex 10:30am TeX is the assembly language of typesetting LaTeX is a kludge of a macro system on top of TeX. s/assembly language/macro assembly language/ 10:40am abi: no, TeX is the macro assembly language of typesetting okay, hcf. 10:50am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (dfhdfaskhdhfisdufhsivh) om -:- binEng [Anders@dialup208-2-44.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes 12:30pm -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-046.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes -:- Oddity [d96-abo@spel11.nada.kth.se] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Oddity!" :-) Salut Alonzo and the rest! :) 01:00pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-224-245.s245.tnt6.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]) * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 15 hrs 7 min 16 secs -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-238-202.s202.tnt2.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hi Tril yeah -:- smoke [smoke@7dyn64.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi hoy, smoke hi abi, the friendly bot * binEng/#tunes <-- The unfriendly human being ;) Tril! Tril: I'm sending you a mail right now, but now that you're here I guess we could discuss it :) 01:20pm uh ok Tril: Actually, I'm almost done the letter, I'll send it to you and we can discuss it om sure Ok it's send sent :) -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has left #tunes [] -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ test test what? :) test irc -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us647.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 01:30pm -:- Oddity is now known as abo beholder, ok. Running out of IP addresses has nothing to do with it, because all those names go to the same IP address. beholder: You have a DHS account, right? You get up to 4 hosts I think. Just add another one with the exact same settings as the unios.dhs.org one. Tril: NP :) and tell me what the name is Tril: Will do and what directory the web page will be at where to send the mail :) Tril: I'd imagine /host/akos would be fine. (UniOS is /host/unios?) oh uh i call it /serv but yeah Tril: ok /serv/akos should be fine ok it will be: akos.dhs.org what's it stand for? a killer operating system? tril: Another kind of game system (without the "game" ;) 01:40pm No, actually it's: A Kind Of Special game beholder: agree? bin: Ahh! :) That makes more sense now :) tril: Yep I agree ;) abi: akos is A Kind Of Special game who is a member of AKOS who has a bespin account? binEng are you in it yes. Myself and bin I think And ProGuy He has an account, doesn't he? yeah binEng: Proguy lives near you, right? Relatively near, just the next country :) did you invite him to the tunes channel? I think I did, yes. Tril: Looking for more traffic? Didn't he behave well? ;) no I just forget the circumstances around my giving him an account. :( too many users, i have to start keeping track Is the server beginning to get heavily loaded too? I don't think so The network pipe will get full before that happens we only get 30K/s to most places, 80K/s for nearby places 01:50pm Tril: So the pipe is not full yet? ok I found the conversation where I met ProGuy (0409) Beholder, maybe it is, that might explain why it's so slow. Tril: Possibly the ISP not feeding enough? Beholder, I know for a fact the ISP has a small pipe. That's what I'm saying, the network can't send traffic to bespin fast enough for bespin to get overloaded. If that much traffic was for bespin, the network would slow down so that it wouldn't be a problem on the CPU. bin: across the straits, too or the north sea 02:00pm Not really the North Sea, just the Oresund strait. And the Stora Bält strait... -:- SignOff abo: #TUNES (Leaving) * Beholder/#tunes is AFK (cooking supper) * Tril/#TUNES just burnt a pizza in the oven it's a couple hours overcooked... 02:10pm does ftpsearch have any mirrors? ftpsearch is http://ftpsearch.lycos.com/ there is no other ftpsearch afaik the ntnu.no one got bought by lycos im aware of that do search enginges have mirrors? maybe other sites use the same engine, but mirrors? yahoo has mirrors anyway where? uk, etc .ca Tril: r u 'here here' or just 'here'? >>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us647.javanet.com] requested PING 928876634 from TUNES uhh there aren't any discussions going on in this channel, so i may not respond immediately you could start one well, i was gonna i don't know how long i'm gonna stay online, i'm wondering about this MOT-2 thing but i realize that it depends too much on the web/db thing which isnt ready yet the author says i should upgrade to the latest mysql, but doing that requires switching to the unstable debian glibc 2.1 and all that ouch i mean, mysql itself may not require it, but that's the way that version is packaged for debian. 02:20pm i would need fare's permission before switching bespin to unstable. i'll just reinstall mot-2 and see if it works better this time.. maybe install it a little better this time 02:30pm -:- |Myrmidon [ubiquity@dm6-13.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes <|Myrmidon> Hi. e 02:50pm >>> Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 928881206 977349 from #TUNES -:- Tril has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Reflective Computing System || Test the database Tril: same, works fine w/ eleph/lynx, doesnt work w/ my browser, which since its an old beta isnt surprising what browser opera -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-78.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi hola, water yo * water/#tunes is celebrating the installation of his personal line. phone line Hey Brian :) it may someday begat a T1. hi beh wat: congratz on the new line :) "new"? Do you have an old one to spare, water? :) bin: yes, but that's for everyone else, now. -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes has anyone looked at my recent Squeak code, yet? <_QZ> have u guys seen the new master card commercial? <_QZ> http://www.qzx.com/mastercard.txt 03:50pm -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-144.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes water, not yet. you said you almost got it working :) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-78.tscnet.net]) <_water> well, i finally got rid of the 'self-reference' bug, so the rest of the code will merely build on the existing classes, particularly ArrowWorld. -:- _water is now known as water anyway, i now advocate that people test it as much as they like. the only conditions i require are that you not access the 'head' and 'tail' of an object directly, which produces meaningless wrapper object, anyway. -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-144.tscnet.net]) 04:00pm -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-10.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes whew. i'm back. water: where's the code? i heard the code was going very well, and yeah.. they said they will, and i'm still waiting for a document abi: forget the code hcf: I forgot code arrow? arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. or at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/ wait. that's the paper. water: still no more Arrows docs? abi: arrow is also see also http://www.tunes.org/~water/ that is too long, hcf bin: not yet. damn abi: tell water about arrow water: hows that? hcf: bugger all, i dunno hcf: good. -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Reflective Computing System || Test the database || Arrow code the database is ready? 04:10pm ready to be tested ok. i'm logging in now. the data isnt entered yet tril: "unknown user or bad password". ahem?? -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu]: EOF from client) -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ hey, tril. can i get access to the db? !drow:*! ahahhahahahahahha water: try view as guest gee thanks. then -> review hold on i'm doing stuff ok <_QZ> is there any way for supervisor mode to use physical memory addresses with paging enabled? 04:20pm _QZ why do you guess that Linux has the phyiscal memory mapped into the kernel's page map? <_QZ> huh i have no idea what i am talking about does anyone know something about Adaptive Programming or Demeter? it's supposed to be related to AOP -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup040.nni.com] has joined #tunes hey sr i have a question about context switching is there some sort of aop implementation for !win95 out there ? smoke: yes, aspectJ smoke: it's a Java weaver with the three aspects from the Xerox Parc papers. water: aha. is it interesting to dive into the subject? my knowledge reaches no further than oop water: is context switching aftert an interrupt as the result of a syscall an expensive operation? smoke: yes, it shows an interesting way to write several simple programs that together make a _much_ longer one with more efficient operation. is the practice of syscalls through interrupts a poor implementation? sr: well, in terms of cache-misses, definitely. if it's expensive, then wouldn't regular context switching (after scheduling, each process gets a part of the CPU) even more expensive? * water/#tunes would prefer a user-level OS with no interrupts. be even more expensive I have an idea for a model in which there is a kernel process for each non-kernel user process that is synchronized with the user process to provide data for the user process or a kernel server for as many processes as wanted so would having a kernel process for each process (or one kernel server for multiple processes) be expensive? it would use no interrupts but would be synchronized with the processes to provide the services at the right time water, would that be expensive (slower than regular interrupt syscalls) sr: it would require a more capable paging system and careful attention to synchronization, but sure. sr: although i've never actually written an os, only analyzed them. water: what do you mean sure to? would it be expensive or would it be feasible 04:30pm sr: it would be feasible i want to make something faster than the regular interrupt system sycalls sr: probably less expensive that interrupts. I think there is an idea of "trusted" processes that can run in system mode without help from synched kernel servers sr: but then, the cost of process-switching would culminate but there would also be user processes that need a server but why do people say that switching as a result of an interrupt syscall expensive? it can't be more expensive than just regular task switching , can it? it msut be minimal compared to regular task switching task switching is expensive, isn't it? well, it's not nearly as expensive as an interrupt, but memory-management does involve a small penalty. the more the switches, the higher the overall cost. -:- s_rr [s_rr@phila-dialup272.nni.com] has joined #tunes i got disconnected s_r is a ghost ok i'll look at the log -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup040.nni.com]) water why is it (reg. task switching) not as expensive as an interrupt? no. the other way, i menat. then why do people complain about interrupts and syscalls? woops. i was right the first time. i'll explain water: did you get logged into the database, and can you read the Languages list? Tril: working on the LISP thing? tril: yes, i'm adding maude to test it -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-046.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] 04:40pm tril: well, i guess that i have to submit a little html. tril: oops. :) sr: syscalls are more expensive because they are often frequent and asynchronous. ok sr: lots of asynchronous interrupts are _bad_. i think I could make a kernel server for some unauthenticated processes and then use just full privileges for trusted apps like servers and they could depend on each other water, what do you think? -:- ns [ns@PPPa24-ResaleAuburn1-2R1043.saturn.bbn.com] has joined #tunes sr: the BeOS gets its performance from doing a very similar thing at the thread level. hi, ns hi ns are you working on TUNES? not at the moment water: how does BeOS do it? sr: with threads, you would get similar functionality, but reduce your memory-paging requirements. doesn't BeOS use interrupt syscalls? sr: for each process, the OS automatically spawns several threads within to handle OS calls, UI activities, etc. sr: hell, no. so that makes BeOS fast? sr: actually, it does, but they synchronize via the threads. sr: yes. objects, and processes depend on each other do you think my idea is feasible? -:- SignOff ns: #TUNES (Read error to ns[PPPa24-ResaleAuburn1-2R1043.saturn.bbn.com]: Connection reset by peer) sr: well, yes, but the process switch overhead would be a penalty, unless you could improve the memory management. -:- Dave [thrustit@209-68-229-48.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes -:- Dave is now known as HickServ QZ hi, hs hardware man i need your help or anyone elses water: process switch overhead, you mean switching between the kernel servers and the user processes>? since the kernel servers become processes in your system, yes. help with what hick my friend gave me his old 14.4 k modem and i put it in my old 486 but the ide shit is like 4 pins long with a 20 something pin line water what could i do to reduce overhead? what shall i do? what does the modem have to do with IDE? well if i just put the modem in the mmotherboard the bios won't detect it pins on what, is that an external modem? internal 04:50pm HickServ: I have a Creative CD-ROM that is detected in OpenBSD but not in freeBSD, isn't that dumb? well we're talking about bios but it has those other pins on the surface of th eboard and im not sure what to do anyone know cause i don't know anything about hardware Hickserv I still have no idea what you are talking about. you said modem, then you said IDE, now you said BIOS, and I'm confused heh i got a modem from my friend i put the card n my motherboard did you turn off the power ? hahaha yes you said you know nothing about hwardware :) ok so that's an Internal (ISA BUS) modem right? but there are pins on the surface of the board but the line for it is too wide yes so you are saying you did NOT put it in your motherboard, because it did not fit? no i did it fits in the motherboard but the line (i think its ide or something) is too wide for the pins on the board surface -:- SignOff s_rr: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_rr[phila-dialup272.nni.com]) uh this doesn't sound right.... what? Hickserv what is "the line"? i think it's ide but im not sure what ide is it's that wide flat line right? uh return everything to the way it was when you found it and put the cover back on.... =\ no Okay Lets do this the hard way... hickserv IDE is the name of an interface for hard drives, cdroms and zip drives. It has nothing to do with modems! 1: What are you trying to do? ok 05:00pm well what is that long flat line's name? we don't know you havn't described it well enough yet... IDE is also an acronym for Integrated Development Environment, a software package with compiler, editor and debugger all in one. okay, Tril. ok -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-10.tscnet.net]) some ascii text about to come up You are attempting to install a modem, right? Hickserv: To get a modem to work you need find an unused COM port, and set the modem to use that COM port. -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-172.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes _________________________ _________________________ _________________________ _________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________ er oh? ok hickserv: The BIOS has to do with this because in order for the modem to take a COM port you must disable that com port in the BIOS. tril: don't assume anything about this board! so how do i do this? Let me take over, I'm a wizard at this! =) wtf? hacking hardwarez let tril talk please could you do it in private, anyway? sorry just help me it's ok. how do i disable a com port? i'm going to talk hickserv in private now * AlonzoTG/#tunes is the modem G0D 05:10pm -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Ping timeout for HickServ[209-68-229-48.dialup.cust.tfb.com]) -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-48.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes wb danka 05:30pm <_QZ> it really sucks when ya bite the side of yer mouth cuz then it swells up and u keep oon biting it :( qz: thanks for sharing. -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us647.javanet.com]) <_QZ> np hehehe i know what you mean <_QZ> i think i'm to the point where the outside of my face is gonna bruise 05:40pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) ril: here? yes Tril: I don't think the wild CVS directory was here cvsweb uses co (checkout) oh, tux & do are my linux penguins do they need email addresses? someone suggested that to be a _real_ linux penguin, you had to have a linux account with an email address -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-172.tscnet.net]) help tril hickserv what do you mean it wont let you I raised the stakes by giving them a webpage, too sorry about not mailing you -- it was the sunday night fever i press f1 on boot up but it keeps telling me to insert a bootdisk Fare, every added account must be carefully considered, because the more accounts there are, the lower security is. If they are not real people and you dont have a legitimate reason to have 2 more emails, they should be deleted. -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-174.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes this isn't good i can't access my c drive I guess so, then :( uh bad well, then, I should redirect their webpages to my home, too although I can't imagine how these accounts add insecurity over mine.