IRC log started Tue Aug 17 00:00:01 1999
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[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0817
<hcf> abi: lilypond is the GNU music typesetter at http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/hanwen/lilypond/
12:10am
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<hcf> wb
<water> thanks
<water> i think i've resolved some issues necessary to implement my arrow and ontology ideas, but i also must find someone to whom i can explain them
<water> s/them/my solutions
<water> got a url for that, hcf? :)
<hcf> looking... ;)
<water> it would be soo nice if i could "go commercial" with my theories, and delay the formal exposition until i had working code
<water> but that would require others to understand my vision
<hcf> have u communicated w/ yde (accial author) and/or his peers?
<water> yes, quite a while ago. i only got a response (and a good one, though he was too busy to correspond effectively) from Johan van Benthem
<hcf> perhaps he's less busy now
<water> perhaps i should try again, covering a larger audience with my now well-developed ideas
12:20am
<hcf> quite
<water> after all, i contacted them over a year ago, before i even joined the tunes mailing list
<hcf> good luck w/ them
<hcf> have u read Pattie Maes's work?
<water> don't recall
<hcf> reflection around '87
<water> doesn't ring any bells
<hcf> i might as well paste the citation, Pattie Maes.  Concepts and experiments in computation reflection.  ACM SIGPLAN Notices, 22(12):147-155, December 1987.
<water> damn the acm
<water> and all those academic journals that cost so much
<hcf> she founded firefly!
<hcf> http://pattie.www.media.mit.edu/people/pattie/cv.html
<water> that paper won her an award, apparently
12:30am
<hcf> hmm, http://theses.mit.edu/
<water> not there, but a nice site nonetheless
<water> it's really great being an amateur researcher, let me tell you
<hcf> ok, tell me
<water> lol
<water> no
12:40am
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<water> good night
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01:00am
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<AlonzoTG> om
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11:10am
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<ElGato> hello?
12:10pm
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<hcf> oh hmm
01:00pm
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<hcf> hoy eihrul
<eihrul> hoy
02:20pm
<ElGato> hello
<abi> hey, ElGato
<ElGato> hcf: where can i get the source to abi and run one for myself
<hcf> abi: infobot
<abi> infobot is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot
<hcf> have fun ;)
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<ElGato> what, do i just get the source?
<hcf> yeah
<ElGato> k
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02:30pm
<ElGato> hcf: what do i do once i have the bot>
<hcf> ElGato: read the readme
<ElGato> k
02:40pm
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<ElGato> y0
<sr> hey
<abi> hoy, sr
<ElGato> im getting my book tomorrow
<smkl> which book?
<ElGato> dragon book
<smkl> is that a book about compilers?
<ElGato> yes
<sr> elgato: does it discuss assembler construction in addition to the other ascepts of compiler development?
<sr> s/ascepts/aspects
<ElGato> in all likelyhood
* sr/#tunes orders the dragon book
03:00pm
<sr> sounds like a good book
03:10pm
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<ElGato> gakuk!
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<eihrul> gakuk?
<abi> gakuk is, like, a word fare made up for greeting people, that's what he told me
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<fare> Gakuk!
<hcf> fare!
<fare> abi: liar! I didn't tell *you*!
<fare> HS, ei, hcf!
<hcf> abi: forget gakuk
<abi> hcf: I forgot gakuk
<ElGato> fareL are you amath teacher?
<hcf> abi: moostrap
<abi> rumour has it moostrap is a Self-like language with behavioral reflection, see "Definition of a Reflective Kernel for a Prototype-Based Language" at ftp://ftp.emn.fr/pub/info/mulet/Articles/isotas93.ps.Z
<hcf> fare: plz fix the url for the above in rev-pl
<hcf> and do a review too ;)
03:20pm
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<fare> EG: I was, once
<sr> fare: do you have a copy of the dragon book?
<fare> sr: yes, at home
<sr> does it explain assembler construction?
<fare> hcf: ok
<fare> hcf: no time for review
<hcf> fare: ask review@ to do it
<hcf> fare: also checkout; http://www.emn.fr/dept_info/perso/ledoux/, http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/people/i.s.welch/home.formal/dalang/index.html
<fare> hcf: why not DIY?
<fare> hcf: not high priority, from what I saw of that all an Reflection'99
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03:30pm
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* hcf/#tunes is back
* eihrul/#tunes never left.
<hcf> damn it fare get back here
<eihrul> interesting stuff thrown around on mailing list
04:40pm
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<hcf> hoy liar
<liar> hoy hcf
<liar> "How Linux could screw MS in 2000"
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<eihrul> liar: aren't there way too many of those sorts of articles?
05:00pm
<liar> http://www.theregister.co.uk/990727-000019.html
<eihrul> they always say the same thing
<eihrul> you develop a certain dejavu after the first 200
<hcf> liar: hey, for a change, why dont u bring something new and worthwhile to the channel
<liar> eihrul: this talks about easy-pc
<liar> the pc specs without isa,parallel, serail or floppy
<eihrul> but then again, is that truly easy? :)
<eihrul> it just makes it hard to find hardware
<liar> no it doesnt
<liar> it lowers the cost on the computer and removes components that no one uses
<liar> i dont agree with the lack of serial but..
<eihrul> is that hypothetical, or factual?
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<liar> fact
05:10pm
<eihrul> ah, ok
<liar> remove all the isa slots and isa chipset support, remove parrallel/serial support and the connectors, remove the floppy controller, drive and conenctors. put video/network/sound/modem onboard and maybe 2 pci slots. u have a cheap motherboard with no floppy drive. stick in some cheap components/case and add linux. cheap/easy pc
<liar> pci, usb and firewire are all pnp
<sr> liar: like the NC?
<sr> network computer?
<liar> m$ is planning on modifying win98 (for millenium) to work without those legacy features but that will just be a hack. but linux could be adapted much better and quicker
<sr> would you use Celeron processors?
<liar> celeron or k6
<sr> liar: the nerdbox on one of those hardware pages uses celeron processors
<liar> thats cuz its cheap and can be oc'd
<liar> but there is a company that will be selling $200 computers later this year that run linux and are for internet use at home
<sr> dual celerons can be better than dual p3
<liar> no
<liar> u get about 55% increase with dual celeron over single single
<liar> p2/3 gets much more
<liar> my celeron 366 running at 567 is AS FAST AS a p3-550
<sr> what are the minimum requirements for brix? :P
05:20pm
<liar> 386
<sr> for my OS, i want it to be 386/15 with 512k of ram
<sr> i don't think i can make it 286
<sr> that would be a challenge
<sr> maybe i can make a separate version just for the 286 and the 8088/8086
<liar> i currently have brix use fixed size structures for speed and less code so it needs 1meg just for the kernel
<sr> i want to run a GUI and some apps and the kernel comfortably in 2 meg
<liar> brix will run nice in 2meg
<liar> did u guys hear about the ads and aol in the pheonix bios?
<hcf> liar: that was a month or 2 ago
<liar> that was funn
<liar> y
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<overfien> y0h whats up
05:30pm
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<sr> liar: huh?
<liar> huh what?
<sr> ads for aol in the BIOS?
<liar> no ads and aol
<liar> u know the banners on webpages? they want to put those on yer boot screen
<liar> cuz pheonix is run on 70% of all desktops
<liar> and they also want to put aol in the bios
<sr> @#$@!
<sr> is this going to happen?
<liar> http://www.weslow.net/bytethis/columns/phoenixbios_petition.htm
<sr> hey: sell ad space in brix :)
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<liar> heh
<water> hola
<abi> hoy, water
<sr> this isn't funny!
<sr> this is awful
<water> yes it is :)
06:00pm
<eihrul> what is it?
<abi> it is beyond
<eihrul> abi: forget it
<abi> eihrul: I forgot it
<water> abi: no, it is <reply>
<hcf> water: ftp://ftp.apple.com/devworld/Newton_Development/, http://www.best.com/~wsmith/works.html, http://www.laputan.org/talks/ss98/default.htm, http://www.laputan.org/reflection/living.html, http://i44www.info.uni-karlsruhe.de/~assmann/abstracts.html
<water> bwah
<water> geez
<hcf> sorry
<water> no prob
<sr> liar: isn't this going to affect you? don't you feel outraged?
<liar> yes
<water> cool! aop weaving = graph re-write!!!!!
<sr> i hope other BIOS software makers will sell BIOSes without the ads
<sr> and get more busineess than bastard Phoenix
<hcf> water: where do u see that?
<water> on assmann's page
<hcf> water: see also http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/lieber/connection-to-aop.html
<sr> what are we going to do? our computers are doomed to being venues for ads
<water> hcf: already got that one
<hcf> water: k
<sr> water:  http://www.weslow.net/bytethis/columns/phoenixbios_petition.htm
<water> what?!?!
<water> wtf?!?!?!?!?!?
<sr> water: another sign that our world is going to the dogs
<liar> sr: u do know that phoenix owns award?
<sr> well at least there is no way to put ads in the usage of computers beyond simple start-up
<sr> liar: ya, it sucks
<water> and to think pc's started with something as democratic as the apple II
<liar> sr: that leaves ami, the sucky bios maker, to sell without ads
<sr> but are ads going to be downloaded as a bios update regularly?
<sr> if so, you could circumvent the process
<liar> u need an aol account
<liar> if it cant dialup to aol it wont boot
* water/#tunes gets his e-pen out...
<sr> liar: you don't expect me to believe that do you?
06:10pm
<liar> sr: its the truthg
<liar> u can even dialup to aol and get yer email and surf the web without going into an os
<sr> yes? so?
<sr> water: have any strokes of genius lately?
<water> hehe... a few, i guess
06:20pm
<sr> water: you've written high-performance 3d graphics engines?
<water> yeah
<eihrul> i can't see it...
<water> those were the last of my game-engine making projects
<water> hehe... i've changed since then
<eihrul> you, performance obsessive?
<water> definitely
* eihrul/#tunes 's mind wobbles.
<water> trust me, i can imagine arrow or tunes being _very_ fast
<eihrul> i can almost see it too
<eihrul> or rather, interpreting them into an efficient form
<water> sort of
<eihrul> i don't think arrows themselves could be used as a runtime representation completely
<water> i was thinking more along the lines of abstracting the tunes / arrow ideas from actual real-time computation
<water> since often infinite arrow computations occur per second in existing systems, anyway
<water> s/often/always
<eihrul> define "abstracting"
<water> making something like my squeak/arrows prototype apply to other processes and to identify my environment structures with them
<water> btw, i also own a copy of "advanced compiler optimization and implementation"
<water> good reading ;)
<sr> water what kind of optimizations can be made?
<eihrul> er... that wasn't quite my question
<water> sr: what do you mean? about compilers?
<sr> yes
<eihrul> i meant are arrows complementary to computations?
<eihrul> or are the computations derrived from the arrows themselves?
<water> eihrul: i mean arrows are declarative (sort of, probably not in the way that you're thinking)
<eihrul> well, could you just arrow my question? :)
<water> sr: depends on the language paradigm
<eihrul> er answer
<water> eihrul: sure
<eihrul> brain fart
<eihrul> but an ironic one!
<water> eihrul: i could "arrow" it, too :)
<eihrul> and therein lies the irony
<water> sr: c-style?
<eihrul> water: answer my question then :)
<water> eihrul: not sure if i can. remember that i consider arrows to be atoms of information
<water> eihrul: my answer depends on what your background is
06:30pm
<eihrul> can computations interpretable by hardware itself be derrived from arrows alone?
<water> eihrul: sure
<eihrul> perhaps is a better question
<water> eihrul: hw is just a state-machine, an ontology
<water> brb
<water> b
<sr> c style
<water> sr: ok, code-inlining, register-coloring (-> register aligning, interprocedural and intermodular alignment),
<water> sr: dead code elimination, control-flow graph analysis, data-flow graph analysis
<water> sr: partial-evaluation, ...
<sr> all this can be applied as a programmer writing assembly code
<water> sr: yeah, at the cost of man-hours!!
<water> duh
<water> it can also be applied by any half-witted c-coder
<sr> i need to learn to make fast assembly code
<sr> i guess it will take a lot of experience and reading
<water> it's hard enough to make fast c-code
<water> asm makes it harder in most cases
<eihrul> extremely so
<water> because you have to explicitly write low-level details before deciding how optimization will occur
<water> => you have to re-write _everything_
<eihrul> and writing optimizations in C can be done without as signifigant damage to the structure of the code itself
<water> trust me, i've been there. of course, os-coding often requires a different programming style
<water> but then, i dislike the os idea anyway
06:40pm
<eihrul> speaking of which... time to abort this assembly code
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<water> hello, citrix
<Citrix> hi
06:50pm
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<water> hey atg
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water
* water/#tunes drags AlonzoTG to the Trash icon.
* sr/#tunes double-clicks on AlonzoTG
<sr> water: in BeOS?
<water> sr: there's another one? :)
<AlonzoTG> topick?
<abi> its spelled 'topic', AlonzoTG
<AlonzoTG> Anyway...
<sr> abe?
<water> now that's a weird abi feature
<AlonzoTG> I pheel that I could make a good AI in 5 yarn...
<AlonzoTG> =P
<sr> water: are you running the BeOS? :P
<hcf> water: its just <reply>
<water> sr: no, not yet. my cd-rom drive is fried
<sr> its spelled 'feel', AlonzoTG
<sr> it should be "it's" though, hcf
07:00pm
<hcf> sr: i wrote it and i leave out 's
<sr> hcf: did you write anything besides abi?
<water> hcf: moostrap review?
<hcf> sr: i didnt write abi, just mod'd the code
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<sr> water: i guess you really did throw Alonzo in the trash
<sr> Ping timeout for AlonzoTG
<water> lol
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<water> wb
<AlonzoTG> freeekin server...
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> whatchyawannatalkabout?
07:10pm
<sr> << AlonzoTG >> I pheel sillee!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> me is tired from my menial dead end job I am stuck in untill I can proove my 1337ness and have some letters appended to my name. =\
<sr> it's an auto-greet message
<sr> what's your job?
<AlonzoTG> changin tyres
<AlonzoTG> phiksing phlats.
<sr> alonzo become a professor at MIT
<AlonzoTG> maybe in 5 years... when my program gets a 85%+ score on the turing test.
<water> bah
<AlonzoTG> I would enjoy a professorship greatly...
<AlonzoTG> Eye just dont have the proper entry prefix. ( usually Dr. )
<sr> maybee in fyve yers.... when my progrem getz a 85%+ scoore on the tooring test.
<water> hhehe
<eihrul> just have your first name legally changed to Doctor
* AlonzoTG/#tunes slaps eihrul around a bit with a large trout
* water/#tunes already gets called 'Doc' or 'The Doctor' by everyone he works with.
* sr/#tunes hits AlonzoTG with a large doctor's degree in physics
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<eihrul> paper cuts...
07:20pm
<AlonzoTG> eye phlunked fizicks =(((
<sr> english class too?
<AlonzoTG> C
<AlonzoTG> =\
<sr> Cee
<AlonzoTG> (C:
* AlonzoTG/#tunes pheers water's 1337n3$$
<sr> 31337n3ss
<water> what?
<sr> eleet= 31337
<water> lee?ness?
<AlonzoTG> t
<water> oh
<water> bah
<sr> yeah water is a skilled cracker :P
<water> yeah whatever
<AlonzoTG> water is briliant...
<water> uhh
<AlonzoTG> you must have had a mondo huge book-budjet and Aristotle as a tutor...
<AlonzoTG> =\
* water/#tunes senses sarcasm
<AlonzoTG> none at all!
<water> atg: one word: Dover books
<water> oops
<water> forgot how to count :)
<AlonzoTG> among the sharpest minds on the net!
<AlonzoTG> I just finished reading the "magnificrab" in GEB
<sr> alonzo: what books did ewe bye?
<water> the irc seems to allow me to make all sorts of grammatical mistakes
<AlonzoTG> books on lisp...
<AlonzoTG> functional programming
<AlonzoTG> threads programming
<sr> water: are you considering BeOS?
<AlonzoTG> Eunicks programming.
<water> someday, i'll have to get around to reading geb
<water> sr: definitely
<AlonzoTG> and OSkit.
<sr> alonzo: how's your work going with LiNuCkS?
<water> sr: but i'd really like tunes or arrow
<AlonzoTG> I made a proposal to the F-cpu team for a CPU that would not require a kernel as the Alpha does. but still provide full protection.
<AlonzoTG> I havn't touched the prototype in a while...
<sr> F-cpu?
<abi> i guess F-cpu is http://f-cpu.tux.org/
<AlonzoTG> I am trying to figure out how to program.....
<AlonzoTG> I could do the entire thing in NASM and produce phalt binaries...
07:30pm
<sr> coooool
<AlonzoTG> and use interrupts for all system calls...
<sr> f-cpu
<AlonzoTG> but that would be SOOO lame
<AlonzoTG> I mean lame to the absolute extreme....
<water> interrupts for syscalls?!?
<sr> lame to the ultramax.
<water> no kidding
<AlonzoTG> Instead I want to do the entire thing in Lisp or sumpfin...
<AlonzoTG> the prototype definitely...
<AlonzoTG> the final version... have no idea what language...
<AlonzoTG> I could really use some hacking buddies...
<AlonzoTG> As of now I am doing all of this on my own between changing tires and sleaping....
<AlonzoTG> Also I want to look ahead at what the 2.0 version of my OS will look like (a full AI based system), so I can make sure 1.0 is forward compatable.
<water> "full AI"?
<AlonzoTG> fully sentient AI...
<sr> water: when will f-cpu manifest?
<AlonzoTG> "good morning Dave"
<water> probably psychotic, too :)
<AlonzoTG> f-cpu = never
<AlonzoTG> oh well...
<water> sr: hell if i know
<AlonzoTG> just don't put it on a space ship with 3 guys in hybernation....
<water> sr: maybe merlin will suffice
07:40pm
<sr> dammit. i was going to ask something and i can't remember what
* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes sr with an Iron Butterfly
<AlonzoTG> does that jog your memory?
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<sr> alonzo: an ASCEY picture
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on Beholder
<AlonzoTG> beholder: 
<AlonzoTG> What are your plans?
07:50pm
<water> beh!
<sr> bah!
* AlonzoTG/#tunes attaches Glyde's Chords of *HUGE* to Beholder and turns up the voltage. Beholder is electricuted!
* AlonzoTG/#tunes ignites a flamethrower and eyes Beholder
<AlonzoTG> =\
* sr/#tunes ignites a match and eyes AlonzoTG
<AlonzoTG> ugh
08:00pm
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes Beholder with an Iron Butterfly
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<Beholder> Hmm... shoulda set myself AFK... damn
08:40pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0818
IRC log ended Wed Aug 18 00:00:01 1999