IRC log started Thu Sep 30 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0930
<eihrul> water: you're welcome to start conversation less dry and useless
12:10am
<water> back
<smkl> hello water .. what's new?
<water> smkl: new since when?
<smkl> hmm
<water> eihrul: still here?
<smkl> since month ago
<water> oh, well i've got linux on my new desktop machine, and my request for research assistance was not fruitful
<water> and of course, i've been trying to refine my formal theories for arrow
12:40am
<water> i will be going on vacation in a week and a half, so i will have time to completely relax and then focus on results (both code and theory)
<water> i intend to have a fully-functioning basic arrow system by the end of next month
<water> it will be a "demonstrator" by exhibiting the basic concepts outlined in the introduction
<water> enough info for you? :)
<smkl> yes ...
<water> lol ok
<eihrul> water: yes
<eihrul> or rather, i'm still here
<water> eihrul: any ideas for conversation?
<water> better yet, any interest in high-level programming?
12:50am
<eihrul> so far as i will need a high-level language (compiler for such) once my kernel is finished
<water> like c? :)
<eihrul> no... i do not like green c and ham...
<water> what language then?
* smkl/#tunes is reading rudy rucker's "infinity and mind" ... it seems to have same kind of philosophical ideas as water
<eihrul> water: that is the question, indeed...
<water> eihrul: what criterion for language selection/creation?
<water> smkl: haven't heard of it
<eihrul> my expectations are very low at this point...
<water> eihrul: expectations? what do you expect? what do you really want?
<eihrul> perhaps one with much better support for generic programming/meta-programming...
<water> eihrul: looked at maude?
<eihrul> nope
<water> abi: maude?
<abi> i don't know, water
<water> damn
<water> check the language review page
<smkl> abi: maude is a rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/
<eihrul> abi: maude is a reflective system based on rewrite logic at http:.//...
<abi> ...but maude is a rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/...
<eihrul> dern
<eihrul> you beat me
<water> smalltalk would be an easy port, though, and it does handles reflection, though not incredibly well
01:00am
<water> and making a lisp interpreter would be really easy
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01:10am
<water> wb
<eihrul> water: so smalltalk would be relatively simple to implement? (compared to other languages i could choose from)
<water> well, there are lots of implementations, and a few are open
<eihrul> squeak?
<abi> i guess squeak is a cool language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars!
<water> yeah
<eihrul> any others?
<water> gnu smalltalk
<water> there's also pocket smalltalk
<eihrul> could you give me urls for the two?
<water> which is a very simple implementation
<water> www.gnu.org :)
<eihrul> pocket smalltalk is there as well?
<water> as for the other...
<water> www.pocketsmalltalk.com
<water> they all have c-code sources
<eihrul> that could be a problem
<water> why?
<eihrul> need to set up a cross compiler, but i suppose i'd need to no matter what
<water> yeah, that'd be true for any language
<eihrul> though would even need to get C runtimes for my kernel as well
<eihrul> if the implementation uses any of libc
01:20am
<eihrul> vm-1.5.zip - 35 kilobytes
<eihrul> pocket indeed
<water> yep
<water> it sacrifices a lot for size, though
01:30am
<eihrul> hrmm... not good, wrists starting to get sore
<eihrul> stinging even
<water> oww
<eihrul> what is the ide like for ps? (typing 1-hnded)
<water> it's a special version of gcc
<water> rhide i think, but i haven't tried programmings for ps
01:40am
<eihrul> hmm, i could map the smalltalk vm into clients with shared memory... would work out nicely
<water> that's certainly different to say the least
<eihrul> would only require one copy of the VM in memory :)
<eihrul> except for the data portions perhaps
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01:50am
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<water> good night. i'll be back in a few hours
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02:20am
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<smkl> -NickServ(s@NickServ)- Unknown command fuck.  "/msg NickServ HELP" for help.
03:20am
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<water> apparently there's a big inet bottleneck lately
05:40am
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<fab> lo :)
06:30am
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<water> anyone here?
06:40am
<water> well, if anyone wants to see the revolutionary idea (or not) of the decade, check out the Amin Thermodynamic Cycle specs, and check the theory they have published for scientific inconsistencies, please
<smkl> i am
<smkl> where?
<water> i looked it over and haven't seen any discrepencies <yet>, although the idea is still no perpetual motion machine
<water> er... just a sec for the url
<water> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/21641.html
<water> pdf files have the thoeyr on the site
<water> gotta go
<water> later
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07:00am
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<Kaufmann> Anyone listening?
* smkl/#tunes is
<Kaufmann> Wanna talk?
<Kaufmann> I've got a new Ultra-Kewl Idea (c)
<smkl> about what?
12:20pm
<smkl> you can tell me...
<Kaufmann> An OS
<Kaufmann> The Ultra-Kewl (tm) part is: the UI runs in a ridiculously small Java applet in the user's browser; the rest of the OS runs in a remote server
* Kaufmann/#tunes pokes smkl
12:30pm
<smkl> ohh
* smkl/#tunes has beep off
<Kaufmann> *sigh*
<smkl> that might make too much load for the server
<Kaufmann> we make a bigger server, with a broader connection.
12:40pm
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<NegativeN> hi
<NegativeN> Q?
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02:50pm
<eihrul> liar: is bfe still working?
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03:00pm
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<liar> eihrul: uhh ya
<liar> eihrul: why wouldnt it?
<eihrul> bugs...
<liar> what bugs?
<eihrul> bugs that might pop up after you fixed it
<liar> i was using it on brix last night and didnt find any bugs
<liar> i did find some things i need to add to make it easier, like a goto search thing on the structures. scrolling thru a 5000 item list to find something sucks
<liar> and maybe i should add user settable start/end points so u dont have to wait while it reads in 5000 items from the list
03:20pm
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<lar1> Hey
03:40pm
<liar> hey
<liar> i got a working copy of bfe on the page
<liar> u need bochs 981102 to use it since 990925 has a bug
03:50pm
<lar1> ok
<Beholder> The 486 emulation doesn't work for bochs?
<lar1> The debugger is messed up in versions greater then 981102
04:00pm
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<Beholder> Ahh
<liar> 486 emu works fine, now that i told kevin to enable the AC bit in eflags so the OS can detect it as a 486
<liar> the debugger works fine in the newest versions of bochs
<liar> it just has a bug that makes it not work with bfe
<lar1> Hmm
<liar> its a kewl program
<lar1> Whats the bug?
<liar> after about 899-1000 commands bochs will stop sending output back thru the pipe
<lar1> Thats a very interesting bug
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<liar> hmmm
<liar> i wonder if its because he is sending some other crap thru the other pipe and im not reading from it
04:10pm
<liar> lar1: why didnt u take the program?
<Beholder> liar: What is buttons.exe?
<liar> Beholder: run it
<lar1> liar: take what program?
<liar> lar1: the one im trying to dcc send
<liar> Children's books that didn't make it.
<lar1> Whats the extention?  Stupid mIRC likes to block things... I hate windows... lemme shut that off
<liar> 3.      Dad's New Wife, Robert
<liar> .exe
<lar1> ok, I'll take it now
<lar1> What is this program?
<liar> 8.      Curious George and the High-Voltage Fence
<liar> 11.     Some Kittens Can Fly.
<lar1> Heh
<liar> 15.     Garfield Gets Feline Leukemia
<liar> 21.     Pop! Goes the Hamster ... and Other Great Microwave Games
<liar> 25.     Eggs, Toilet Paper, and Your School
<liar> 26.     Why Can't Mr. Fork and Ms. Electrical Outlet be Friends?
* Beholder/#tunes thinks that sounds like the "children's books that should have been written" list
<lar1> :)
<liar> heh
<liar> 38.     What is that Dog Doing to that Other Dog?
04:20pm
<lar1> liar:  That buttons.exe is stupid
<liar> lar1: did u press yes?
<lar1> Yup
<liar> did u close em all?
<lar1> No
<lar1> I killed the process
<liar> damn
<Beholder> I killed the process too ;)
<liar> i got a couple ppl to click on all of them :)
<lar1> You think I am _that_ stupid?
<liar> u want me to answer that? :)
<lar1> Heh
<liar> just add that to the desktop of everyone u know
<lar1> How many does it make?
<liar> and all the comps are work/school
<liar> enuf to cover yer desktop
<lar1> Heh... make a version for macOS and the school will have it :)
<lar1> wow
<lar1> Glad I killed it
<lar1> liar:  What do you sugest for a 4w audio amp?  Is there some simple way to do it with descrete components, or should I go op-amp?
<liar> uhh
* lar1/#tunes hides
<liar> op amp sucks shit
<lar1> How do they suck?  The lm383 doesn't look _too_ bad
<liar> and so does 4 watts
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<liar> Beholder: whats yer email?
<Beholder> beholder@unios.dhs.org
<lar1> I ain't driving a large thing here... its to drive some speakers for bass
<Beholder> liar: Gonna send me brix? ;)
<lar1> Wich are toooo bassy at 50w
<liar> Beholder: something even better
<Beholder> liar: Better than brix? Wow, must be sending me Tunes ;)
<Beholder> hehe
<lar1> Heh
<lar1> Nah, hes really sending you raven
<Beholder> Hahaha :)
<liar> lar1: i sent it to u too
<lar1> liar:  got it, tnx, reading
<lar1> Uhhh.... that pretty weird
04:30pm
<liar> u have no sense of humor
<Beholder> I don't check my mail till tonight :)
<liar> why?
<lar1> I didn't say it wasn't funny... I just said it was weird :)
<Beholder> liar: Cuz I get tons of crap, and I feel obligated to answer some of it, then I loose moments of my life ;)
<liar> u only have to read the one from me
<liar> later u can read the rest
* Beholder/#tunes is buggin my friend... tellin him that bad spelling in ICQ messages will crash windows 98... hehe
<Beholder> Well, I must go now, I'm helping my friend install FreeBSD on his machine. 
<lar1> later Beholder
<Beholder> later :)
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04:40pm
<lar1> Hey gato
<ElGato`> hi
<ElGato`> what's up?
<lar1> not alot
<ElGato`> are we still waiting to see real HLL code
<ElGato`> ? :(
<lar1> Yup yup
<ElGato`> oh my
<ElGato`> that's the only thing hindering us
04:50pm
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<water> hey all
<lar1> Hey
<water> arg! i missed Beh again
<water> hll?
<water> its amazing how different the traffic volume is between the squeak and tunes mlists
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05:10pm
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<water> wb
<lar1> :)
<lar1> Earthlink is bad news over here
<ElGato`> water!!!
<ElGato`> !!!
<ElGato`> !!!
<water> what?
<ElGato`> daddy :D
<water> uhh
<ElGato`> hi
<water> what's up, guy?
<ElGato`> where you in san diego lately?
<water> i left there two weeks ago or so
<ElGato`> ah
<ElGato`> i was gonna write you a physical letter
<water> why?
<ElGato`> beats me
<ElGato`> bored i guess
<water> i guess so
<ElGato`> i suck at c :(
<ElGato`> i get so many errors when i try to compile
<ElGato`> so i haven't gotten very far on my compiler
<water> heh
<water> don't look to me to help with that
05:20pm
* lar1/#tunes thinks asm compiler in asm... good idea?
<ElGato`> water: i know
<ElGato`> methinks i will drag core into my problems :D
<water> i'd like to speak to him as well
<water> or anyone to whom tunes is important
<ElGato`> ...
<ElGato`> regarding the arrow paper
<ElGato`> i have a question
<water> yes?
<ElGato`> about homoiconic thingy ma bobers :D
<lar1> That arrow paper when at least 20 trillion miles over my head
<ElGato`> aren't most programming languages homoiconic?
<water> homoiconic -> like smalltalk or lisp
<ElGato`> a small set of primatives?
<water> "typeless" by trivially basing everything on one type
<water> yes, that too
<ElGato`> but c++ has a set of static primatives
<ElGato`> is it not homoiconic?
<water> eek. no
<water> what type in c++ is the basic type?
<ElGato`> uh nothing
<ElGato`> int i guess
<ElGato`> :D
<water> exactly
<lar1> I'd say char, its the smallest
<lar1> Or Bool
<water> and it's complicated to explain the rest of the language in terms of chars or ints or bools or whatever
<ElGato`> what about an untyped or dynamically typed language?
<water> whereas in smalltalk (or self) everything is explained as an object
<water> actually, the squeak project is starting to remodel its primitives as objects
<water> which i think is really interesting for reflection
<ElGato`> how does a language being homoiconic make it more reflective or easier to reflect
<water> well, untyped languages usually have a single implicit type, like a CONS cell or an object
<water> because if you can characterize that single type, then you can characterize all types built out of that type
<ElGato`> in small talk, how are specific members of an object accessed?
<water> well, smalltalk has variable access primitives, but usually they are only used by 'accessor messages'
<water> in self, no variable access primitives exist, which is cleaner
<ElGato`> so how are they accessed?
05:30pm
<water> well, the variable access is basically implicit
<water> accessor messages are added implicitly
<water> whenever you refine an object with an 'add-data-slot' primitive
<water> now, smalltalk and self and lisp aren't perfect, which is what arrow is for (no, it's not perfect either, but better)
<ElGato`> hmmm
<ElGato`> since i have no experience with self or smalltalk, you need to be more specific
<water> i reduce the type idea to an epistemic construct
<water> ok. examples:
<water> say i have a stack object StackObject
<water> actually, not a good example, because variable access for stacks is implicit
<water> say i have an object for a cons cell, called MyConsCell
<water> it would have two variables, head and tail
<water> but the accessor messages would be called 'car' and 'cdr', respectively
<water> so typing 'MyConsCell car' returns the 'head' of the object
<water> but the smalltalk code for 'car' would be 'return head'
<ElGato`> ok i see
<ElGato`> thanks
<water> usually, it's very bad practice to use direct assignments in any code other than accessors, because the message-send is usually compiled away easily
<water> and you can make the accessors perform type-checks
05:40pm
<ElGato`> ...
<ElGato`> cooly
<water> well, smalltalk ain't that fast unless completely compiled, but squeak may change that
<ElGato`> hmmm
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<ElGato`> when you off to sea again water?
<water> not for another 14 months
<water> ahhh..... :)
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<ElGato`> :D
<ElGato`> cooly
<ElGato`> you'll be out of the navy in what two years?
<water> but when i do, it'll first be to san dog
<water> 2.4
<water> hi kauf
* ElGato`/#tunes ^5's water
<Kaufmann> So I applied to the LokiHack thing (as seen on Slashdot), and I got picked
<water> oh the nt vs linux test?
05:50pm
<Kaufmann> Nein
<water> what is it then?
<Tril> WATER someone I know is thinking about joining the navy. Yes I tried to discourage him. He doesnt seem too convinced.
<water> tril!
<water> tril!
<water> TRIL!
<water> :)
<water> good for you
<water> keep it up
<ElGato`> i bet ir's tril :D
<ElGato`> it's rather
<ElGato`> the cliche "someone i know"
<ElGato`> j/k :D
<Tril> you would lose that bet
<water> tril: i'm moving to downtown seattle tomorrow
<Tril> ok
<ElGato`> tril: do you actually live in christmas island?
<Tril> I think my dad is living in Seattle now. But he doesnt talk to us
<water> oh yes, and i received an answer from the professors whom i wrote
<Kaufmann> As I understand it, Loki Software (port lots of games to Linux) decided that they'd assemble a group of outside programmers, put them together and give them the source code to Civilization: Call to Power (Linux port). As a reward, each of them would be given a brand spankin' new box.
<Tril> Elgato , uhh. no. haven't you heard of vanity domains
<ElGato`> sorry i haven;t
<Tril> err, I mean, havet you heard of countries selling off their TLD's because they don't need them?
<Tril> a vanity domain is like yourname.com which is not the right term.  
<ElGato`> so .cx is like free
<Tril> .NU, .CX and many other countries which dont have a need for a while top level domain (TLD) have sold theirs to companies who register domains in them for money
<Tril> It's pretty cheap, go to www.cx 
<water> tril: they are concerned that we have no concrete points of research interest intersection, and admit that they don't know of any academic circles with the interest
<Tril> actually i didnt pay for it, someone just emailed me and offered to let me use their bespin.cx which they paid for themself.
<Kaufmann> Obviously, then, it's a ploy to get good code at relatively cheap prices. But to me, it sounded good, so I decided to give it a shot, and submitted my resume. Turns out they forgot to mention that the thing would be physical, based off their Atlanta, GA headquarters, and they do not pay airfares...
<water> kauf: cool
<ElGato`> later guys
<ElGato`> im off
<water> kauf: oh, bummer
<ElGato`> gotta do geometry homework :\
<Kaufmann> Tell me about it
<water> tril: squeak's getting reflective
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<Tril> i'm not sure what you mean by "Research interest intersection"?
<Tril> squeak- good
<Kaufmann> The bad part is, now they're likely going to get stuck with a bunch of inexperienced C++ programmers fresh out of college, who don't have one clue about what constitutes good software design.
<water> tril: although their research applies to my ideas (as a formalism to start from), they don't admit to having any results which could help that modification to the theory
<Tril> brb
<water> tril: <squeak> yes, they're converting bytecode primitives into objects, and eventually will be able to invoke full compilation to add primitives
<water> dynamically
06:00pm
<Tril> sounds good. are you goign to be around more often?
<water> hell yes
<water> i'm going on vacation though next friday
<Tril> then i'll talk to you sometime..i'm leaivng for a bit right now
* Tril/#tunes is still away!!!!!
<water> one week of complete relaxation and analog enjoyment, and one week of code/theory
<water> oh ok
<Tril> hmm:)
<Kaufmann> water, what do you do in the Armed Forces?
<water> i run nuclear reactors within an aircraft carrier
<water> along with lots of technical maintenance
<water> right now, the ship is in the shipyards for a periodic overhaul
06:10pm
<Kaufmann> What is your political outlook?
<water> er...
<water> the constructivist paradigm
<water> :)
<water> which effectively translates to existential pacifist anarchy of a sort
<Kaufmann> I'm just asking because I'm a radical anarchist, and I just can't conceive of being in the military
<water> i came here to see pure evil, and boy did i find it
<water> i'm far from being the average soldier / sailor
<Kaufmann> Figures
<water> in fact, it was a reason that i joined that they would never be able to determine just what i'm capable of
<Kaufmann> Ever read _Cryptonomicon_?
<water> so that they don't try to control me the way they did in college
<water> yeah, i read it while on this last underway... borrrowed it from a friend
<Kaufmann> Identify with Waterhouse? :)
<water> not randy :)
<water> yes, in a way
<water> but then i've never met anyone that i'd compare to alan turing, at least not in person
<water> i.e. "my train has not come in"
06:20pm
<Kaufmann> The part where he gets classified by the Military as an idiot because of the test... I thought that was especially funny since something similar actually happened to me IRL
<water> oh.. well, i scored the highest possible scores within 2%, and they had told me how hard it would be beforehand. i almost had the nerve to backhand the guy when he suggested that
<water> i'm surprised that they didn't pick me as a crypto, since i scored best there, but they have trouble hiring and retaining nuclear tech's
<Kaufmann> Figures... considering things like the Japan incident
<water> hehe
<water> their safety inspections must be really lax to allow as much uranium to be processed together as they did
<water> the nuclear navy is so strict that the dept of energy barely ever has to make inspections
<Kaufmann> Anyway, a while ago I took an admission test for a new school... I completed the maths section (10 qs) in just under half an hour, got every question right, and scored zero in it. Turns out they couldn't figure out my calculations, so they figured I had cheated. I had to seat down with them and explain the demonstration for each of the questions step-by-step before they corrected my score...
<water> lol
<water> i learned a skill that is called number sense here, so that when i'm in practice, i don't ever have to "show calculations" beyond the results of simple algerbaic ops
<water> but i've gotten quite rusty in the last two years :(
<Kaufmann> do you spend more time in land or in sea? I mean, if an accident happened, and I were stuck in the middle of an ocean in a nuclear vessel about to blow up, I'd be very disturbed
06:30pm
<water> but then, those kinds of jobs are for cheap, durable pda's (solar-powered eventually)
<water> they won't blow up
<water> and i'm serious about that... we'd have to be dead before they'd blow up
<Kaufmann> Well, I'm willing to believe that your safety is better than the Japs'... but accidents do happen. Everywhere. Even if it doesn't blow up, something equally bad can happen.
<water> the worst would be a release of radioactive particulate
<water> the nuclear navy's accidents are ridiculously small
<water> everything we do wrong is on the public record. we can't hide any negative details
<Kaufmann> Oh well.
<water> yeah, too bad we won't ever crack open a reactor and start spewing hot magma, eh? :)
<Kaufmann> LOL
<Kaufmann> A pity
<water> but here's the kicker: the nuclear navy is the biggest generator of negative karma i've ever witnessed first-hand
<Kaufmann> At least then we'd have someone to blame... "- See, something crappy happened again!  - It's the Navy's fault! You know, they're all incompetent mumbling fools!"
<water> hehe
<Kaufmann> negative karma?
<water> the only people whose lives aren't ruined by the nuclear navy are the ones who never re-enlist or end their officer's commission as soon as possible
<water> yeah, broken families, suicidal retirees, ...
<water> alchoholism, a complete lack of cultural sophistication
<Kaufmann> And that's where you plan to be for the next x years.
<water> almost all of the people who retire from the nuclear navy die within 3 years
<water> x=2.4 (the minimum amount for me without performing a criminal act)
<water> yes, i study evil first-hand
<water> oh yeah, navy ships often run into and maim whales and dump much waste into the oceans
06:40pm
<Kaufmann> Well, as much as that sounds like an inordinately great amount of fun, I really must be off. See you all later...
<water> ok see ya
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (God is porno.)
-:- ElGato` [no@209-68-229-134.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<ElGato`> :D
<water> wb
<ElGato`> thanks
06:50pm
-:- ElGato` is now known as fire
<fire> :D
<water> fire: so, what are your current language ideas?
<fire> ...
<fire> well im thinking homoiconic
<fire> i still like forth like stack
<water> ok
<fire> uh everything is an object
<fire> data and code are unified
<fire> and i think i can do it cleanly
<water> very abstractly?
<fire> er...yes i suppose 
<fire> what exactly do you mean though?
<water> no machine-dependent or implementation dependent behavior
<fire> no
<fire> very abstractly
<water> ah... i like that
<fire> well i myself believe that hardware should adapt to a good software system
<water> er... dunno about that
<fire> so in a perfect world there would be no need
07:00pm
<fire> but in a not so perfect world i cannot go with the latter :\
<water> hehe
<fire> the only problem is...i hear that the forth like stack has many flaws :\
<fire> atleast that's what zhivago says
<water> what kinds of flaws?
<fire> well i haven't heard specifics...just that a design idea and implementation should not be unified
<fire> poor choice of words on my part
07:10pm
<water> :P
<fire> :D
* fire/#tunes makes water into steam
<smkl> hmm good thing i don't live next to nuclear power plant anymore
<water> lol
<fire> heh
<water> they make us study every nuclear accident type and incident in engrossing detail
<water> it's regular training
<fire> wowsers
<fire> tell me secrets that endanger national security :D
<water> i could give a lecture on chernobyl or three-mile island off the top of my head
<water> no, no secrets
<water> the only secrets are the actual materials that navy plants use and operating specs
<smkl> my home town is the world leader in nuclear waste hiding
<fire> what chemical do you guys use instead of water for you're reactors?
<water> where do you live, smkl?
<water> we use water, actually. in the 50s, we had a few with sodium
<fire> hrm
<smkl> i now live at turku, but i used to live at eurajoki ... there are two worlds most efficient nuclear reactors
<fire> i heard of subs using weird ass liquids
07:30pm
<smkl> (least downtime)
<water> fire: that would be the liquid sodium
<water> smkl: ukraine then?
<fire> finland silly
<water> ah
<fire> :D
<fire> my spanish teacher is finnish
<fire> she's an airhead :D
<water> smkl: yeah, but the cold temperature gives your reactors an efficiency boost
<water> smkl: what kind of reactors?
<fire> i live about 40-50 miles away from the san onofre reactor
* water/#tunes decides to look up the reactors on the web
<fire> water: you sould know...how close are we to fussion (stable)
<smkl> hmm ... they are boiling water IIRC
<water> fire: i mean what kind of fission reactors. there are many types
<water> smkl: do they change out control rods while at power, then?
<fire> no no
<fire> i mean how close are scientist to harnessing the power of fus\ion?
<water> fire: oh, a question
<smkl> water: probably not ..
<fire> fusion rather
<smkl> they are swedish if that helps you to know what they are like
<water> fire: not very. tokamaks require a lot of materials improvements, and other designs which are cheaper are simply ignored
<water> maybe two decades
<fire> blarg :(
<fire> silly grant givers
<water> smkl: not really familiar with the practices of scandinavian nuclear engineering practice
* water/#tunes has found the www nuke power plant index
<fire> i saw something on tlc talking about bacteria that grow on the cooling rods of nuclear reactors 
<water> wow
<water> they must be low-pressure vessels
<water> hmm... but then there are bacteria near ocean vents in trenches
<fire> i think some bacteria just adapted
<water> the question is how adaptable bacteria got into the reactors and survived the pressurization
<water> oh wait
<water> umm. ok, i can accept it, but i probably shouldn't tell why
<fire> ...
<fire> :D
07:40pm
<smkl> http://www.posiva.fi/ has the stuff about nuclear waste
<water> whoa... that reactor at eurajoki has a lifetime power factor of about 85%
<water> our navy reactors are used like car engines... they run at about 16%
<water> weird... they have no info about our reactors
07:50pm
-:- liar is now known as air
<water> hey liar
<air> hey
-:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes
<water> it's the good doctor
<fire> zhivago :D
-:- fire is now known as ElGato`
-:- ElGato` is now known as fire
<fire> no all we need is earth
<fire> now rather
<air> i think i will use this nick from now on
<air> since i just registered it and all...
<fire> perhaps i shall too
<water> uhh...
* water/#tunes considers the implications of having an IRC association with HickServ and _QZ.
<air> :)
<fire> :D
<water> sure, guys. go ahead
<fire> captain planet
<fire> he's a hero
<fire> ...
<fire> FIRE!
<fire> EARTH!
<fire> WATER!
<fire> AIR!
<fire> GOOOOOOO PLANET!
<air> thats quite enuf
* water/#tunes retches into a plastic bag.
<smkl> lol
<fire> :D
<water> and that sound bite will stay in your mind to the grave
<air> btw, bfe is functional if any1 cares
<smkl> at least it was better than "bikermice from mars"
<water> air: that's pretty cool
<water> smkl: i don't even want to know
08:00pm
<air> smkl: if a program was sending data to 2 pipes and im only reading from one is there anyway the second can clog up and make the program stop sending?
<water> smkl: btw, what's the truth of the suggestion i heard that the finnish are statistically depressed more often than other cultures?
<air> there is a hole in the ozone that lets harmful radiation into finland
<fire> i heard that on 60 minutes
<fire> hahaha
<smkl> water: might be true, very high suicide rate
<water> smkl: i live on the anti-pode, seattle, the city with the highest suicide rate in the US, and not coincidentally the highest per annum rainfall
<smkl> air: it might stall if the another pipe is never read or something
<air> was finalnd ever conquered by another country? maybe they are depressed cuz no one liked them enuf to conquer em :)
<smkl> finland was a long time part of sweden, so it was conquered/assimilated ... then russia conquered it from sweden
<fire> water: my teacher told me that statistic
<smkl> soviet union tried to conquer it in WW2
<air> smkl: the other pipe is never read
<Zhivago> wow, talking :)
<air> Zhivago: what do u think?
<smkl> air: where does it go, then?
<water> zhivago: got a tunes issue to discuss?
<Zhivago> hmm, what am I thinking about?
<Zhivago> finland? hmm, they were a feudal kingship system iirc
<Zhivago> and they used to conquer themselves a lot
<air> Zhivago: if program A is writing to 2 pipes and program B is only reading from one of them is it possible the other pipe can fill up and stop program A?
<Zhivago> the vikings were probably their main aggressor, but they were into loot, not land
<fire> im gonna visit finland someday
<smkl> lol
<Zhivago> which is a pity, since they might have done a better job if they'd have conquered europe than the holy roman empire
<Zhivago> air: absolutely, given a posix system
<Zhivago> air: the write() will block when the pipe is full
<air> damn
<Zhivago> you can howver use select() or a non-blocking write()
<air> that is why bfe dont work on the new bochs
<Zhivago> what are you trying to achieve?
<air> bochs writes to 2 pipes and im only reading from one
<air> cuz the other pipe doesnt have info i want
<air> and after 899-1000 commands bochs just stops sending data back
<Zhivago> well, just empty that pipe periodically
<air> im gonna try that
<Zhivago> select() is your friend
<Zhivago> otherwise if you want to do it the hideously ugly way
<air> no way, sigio is
<Zhivago> ugh
<Zhivago> sigio is clumsy
<air> do u have select() code?
<air> an example
<Zhivago> anyhow set the fd to non-blocking, and just non-blocking read() it empty then
<Zhivago> hmm, let me see, I might have
<air> oh wait, i can redirect the other pipe to /dev/null cant i?
<Zhivago> depends on how you are invoking the program
<Zhivago> anyhow select() is simple, poll() is simpler too
<air>                 if (in != NULL)
<air>                   dup2(ifd [0], STDIN_FILENO);
<air>                 if (out != NULL)
<air>                   dup2(ofd [1], STDOUT_FILENO);
<air>                 if (err != NULL)
<air>                   dup2(efd [1], STDERR_FILENO);
<air>                 execv("/bin/sh", argv);
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<water> hcf!
08:10pm
<hcf> hi
<Zhivago> well, that's not going to get redirectable to /dev/null in a significant way.
<water> save me from these c-coders!
<Zhivago> if you wrote this in lisp it would be easier :)
<water> or smalltalk :)
<air> cant i change STDOUT_FILENO to /dev/null or something?
<Zhivago> air: no :)
<air> why cant i open a pipe to /dev/null and hook it somehow
<smkl> it would be even easier in ocaml because ocaml has now unlimited bragging rights
<water> smkl: why is that?
<air> where is eihrul, he could come up with some really sloppy code to get rid of that pipe really quickly :)(
<Zhivago> air: you need to pump it in any case
<Zhivago> air: so just pump it no-where and be done with it
<air> how?
<Zhivago> read()
<water> hcf: when tril returns (should be soon), tell him to wait for me, ok?
<smkl> ocaml program won icfp contest
<water> smkl: what was the win condition?
<hcf> k
<water> hcf: thx
<smkl> water: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~jks6b/icfp/
<smkl> it has not been announced yet, but i trust fare
<hcf> water: how long wil u be gone?
<water> hcf: long enough for my roommate to play EverQuest a little... an hour or two
<fire> hcf!
<fire> BUDDY
* hcf/#tunes sighs
<water> lol
<water> later, folks
-:- water [water@tnt-9-143.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
<fire> bye 
<fire> :(
08:20pm
* fire/#tunes is trying to convince someone to write a program that will do proofs >=)
<Zhivago> what kind of proofs?
<fire> algebraic, geometric and whatnot
<Zhivago> there are general problem solvers which should work for that
<Zhivago> and constructive proofers
<air> hmm that other pipe is empty
<fire> well he's taking his first programming class and seeing what turing said...
08:30pm
-:- air is now known as _QZ
-:- _QZ is now known as air
<air> stupid chanserv, it says it holds empty channels for 365 days before dropping registration
<air> #brix hasnt been empty that long and it was dropped
<fire> what can i say
<fire> openprojects is small
<fire> it's easy for a cop to find an idle channel
<air> tham pigs
08:40pm
<fire> hax0r them :D
<fire> bye
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
08:50pm
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
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-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
-:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp79.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<Zhivago> 'lo
<eihrul> lo
09:20pm
<air> Zhivago: u know much about context switch latencies?
<air> Zhivago: namely why does beos and windows take so freakin long?
<Zhivago> I'm not familiar with beos or windows' switches
<Zhivago> but are you talking about changing between applications, or just multi-tasking in general?
<air> the preemptive switch that saves the state of one process and loads that of another
<eihrul> air: cuz they're proprietary consumer-orientated OS' dude :)
<eihrul> whatever people will buy....
<Zhivago> so your'e talking about multitaskig in genearl
<Zhivago> well, windows is hampered by sucking amazingly
<Zhivago> beos is hampered I suspect by its orientation towrad multimedia systems
<Zhivago> they're pushing it toward a real-time system as I see it
<eihrul> real time shouldn't hamper it....
<air> but beos is suppose to be pervasive multithreaded and i would think that really fast context switches would be a must
<eihrul> unless they use really fine grained synchronization code
<Zhivago> context switches are hampered in a multiple address space system y vm overheads
<Zhivago> but how are you noticing this?
<air> linux switches every 10ms and a 250ms context switch would kill it
<Zhivago> it may not be what you think it is
<eihrul> is it just me or is pervasive multithreading a buzz term Be invented?
<air> eihrul: yup :)
<Zhivago> hmm, well, not quite just you
<eihrul> yup which?
<Zhivago> pervasive multithreading means to use threads for too many things imho
<eihrul> it just seems pointless...
<air> Zhivago: ya thats what it means but be was the first to use the term
<eihrul> it would be just as effective to say the system is multithreaded
<eihrul> the pervasive is redundant
<Zhivago> ei: well, that's the capacity for it, as opposed to the pervasive use of it
<air> eihrul: no cuz too many systems say they are multithreaded and then they dont take advantage of threads
<air> eihrul: beos does
<eihrul> at what level...
<Zhivago> for example, in my own process model, I use 'pervasive threading'
<air> atleast 6 per apps
<eihrul> you you can't really take advantage of threading at the microkernel level
<Zhivago> but I only use a few threads, for example 5-6 for the entire system
<Zhivago> microkernels imho are a bad idea
<eihrul> the threading comes solely from the fact that you're forced to use threads in user level processes....
<eihrul> indeed they are....
<eihrul> they are easier to make though :)
<air> i use the term pervasive multithreading for brix but hey brix uses a crap load more than beos could even dream of
<eihrul> avoids putting effort into making the rest of the OS :)
<eihrul> as you're not making a whole OS, just a small kernel upon which one can be built
<Zhivago> using a lot of threads is a bad idea
<Zhivago> I use a handful between hundreds of applications
09:30pm
<eihrul> indeed...
<eihrul> or atleast kernel level threads is a very bad idea
<air> i use a crap load between no apps
<air> Zhivago: yer still using the term "apps"
<eihrul> cooperative threading would be more favorable for a big single server
<air> Zhivago: u want to make some kinda unified os but u still have apps
<eihrul> or atleast for some parts of it
<Zhivago> air: apps aren't processes
<Zhivago> air: they're functional/conceptional groupings
<eihrul> that's cheating with terminology :)
<air> with brix/tunes everything is integrated into the whole and u have no apps
<Zhivago> hmm, the terminology doesn't apply well to my system
<eihrul> how so?
<Zhivago> air: well, I have everything integrated into the whole, but I'm still going to have apps such as a word processor :)
<eihrul> there are adequate buzz words for everything in computer science
<air> Zhivago: thats bad
<Zhivago> air: ok, but say something more useful
<eihrul> and if there aren't, you can atleast have the decency to avoid buzz word collisions and pick unused ones
<air> Zhivago: kill apps we dont need em
<Zhivago> the words mean approximate the same things
<Zhivago> threads are threads, apps are apps
<Zhivago> apps exist at a user-level
<Zhivago> apps != processes
<eihrul> threads are not threads, apps are not apps
<air> ya apps can be fatter than a single process
<Zhivago> wihrul: you might want to rephrase that to contain some information
<air> Zhivago: why must i be forced to choose a word processor?
<eihrul> Zhivago: there are multiple definitions for many phrases and you indeed are contributing to the problem :)
<Zhivago> air: the words 'force' and 'choose' don' make much sense together
<air> Zhivago: what if word processor A has features that word processor B dont and so on...
<Zhivago> air: this is why having apps is a good idae :)
<air> no
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Zhivago> air: it lets you choose, but more than anything it is a way to interact with something
<Zhivago> eihrul: no :)
<air> when u break the app down into components and integrate those into the OS then the user only needs to choose wht components to use
<eihrul> Zhivago: no is not no :)
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<Zhivago> eihrul: threads are threads of execution in the general sense of the word, they provide multiple execution contexts within an address space
<Zhivago> eihrul: do you have a problem with that definition?
<eihrul> yes...
<Zhivago> eihrul: spell it out then
<eihrul> there is that definition and then you have more recent concepts that a thread is merely a right to execution
<eihrul> and not a context of execution :)
<Zhivago> eihrul: that's by no means a concentional definition
<air> eihrul: do u use that concept in yer OS?
<Zhivago> eihrul: I think your'e going stupid now :)
<eihrul> air: yeah, thread migration
<air> haha
<Zhivago> eihrul: you should invent a word like 'qrfss' to denote that sense
<eihrul> i completely got rid of threads in the first sense
<eihrul> and replaced them with threads in the latter sense
<eihrul> first sense being zhivago's definition
<air> eihrul: uhh whatever
<eihrul> air: hahaha
<air> i use thread migration according to u and i dont use yer second sense
09:40pm
<Zhivago> a right to execution isn't particularly interesting since it doesn't hold state
<eihrul> there are varying degrees of thread migration as well :)
<Zhivago> which is the important sense of a thread
<Zhivago> ie, the ability to continue
<eihrul> Zhivago: a right to execution can hold multiple contexts of execution
<air> and if im correct yer form of thread migration also doesnt use yer second sense
<Zhivago> ei: then you'd better define what a 'right to execution' means since it doesnt' seem to have much in common with a thread
<eihrul> yes it does...
<eihrul> i see a thread as a thread of execution...
<eihrul> the state of execution isn't necessarilt tied with the thread
<Zhivago> ei: no you don't :) you see it as a right of execution
<eihrul> thread == right
<eihrul> in the way i'm using it...
<eihrul> i will use them synonymously henceforth :)
<air> eihrul: where do u hold the state?
<Zhivago> you can't do that if you're defining the difference
<eihrul> in continuations/activations
<air> eihrul: after thread A migrates to thread B
<eihrul> and a thread can have many of them
<eihrul> thread A doesn't migrate to another thread
<eihrul> it migrates from one activation to another
<Zhivago> so, why bother with the concept of 'rights of execution'?
<air> eihrul: and after thread B migrates to thread C
<air> and so on...
<eihrul> Zhivago: because of how it's implemented...
<eihrul> Zhivago: i don't have to block/unblock threads in the scheduler
<eihrul> just change the thread's context of execution to do IPC and such
<air> eihrul: i want to know how yer storing this stuff
<air> eihrul: dont give me buzz words
<eihrul> without changing it's actual right to execution (priority and such)
<eihrul> hey, i didn't make these buzz-words
<eihrul> i skimmed them from essays core pointed me to :)
<eihrul> and the buzz words have simplified my IPC implementation immensely :)
<air> i want to know what yer structures will look like
<Zhivago> ei: sounds like you're taking a thread, and just continuing different continuations
<air> implementation details
<eihrul> Zhivago: a thread has a stack of continuations
<Zhivago> ei: so, your threads actually are threads-of-execution
<eihrul> to do ipc, you push a new continuation onto it's stack
<air> and when that stack overflows?
<Zhivago> ei: and this 'rights' stuff is just your scheduler's info about it
<eihrul> to return from IPC, you just pop it off
<eihrul> air: there is no one stack
<eihrul> air: i have a linked list of activations in that thread
<Zhivago> ei: why would you want to push a continuation in order to do IPC?
<eihrul> it's like a call
<eihrul> you can enter an activation
<eihrul> and return from it
<Zhivago> ok, so you're effectively blocking the thread in the kernel, assuming that this has a kernel
<eihrul> effectively
<Zhivago> and then re-using this thread somewhere else while its effectively blocked
<eihrul> but not semantically
<eihrul> it's not blocking at all
<eihrul> but it proivides much the same effect
<Zhivago> yes I understand that
<Zhivago> I have a simpler method :)
<eihrul> also because the previous activation is always below the current in the stack
<eihrul> you can query the state of the previous activation
<eihrul> i.e. the message it sent to the current one
<Zhivago> I use a thread while it has something to do, then I throw it away
<Zhivago> and I optmise this by re-using dead threads
<eihrul> well mine is faster :)
<Zhivago> hmm, I doubt it :)
<eihrul> because it doesn't have to harvest threads
<air> no it isnt
<air> u have to harvest activation
<air> activations
<eihrul> no you don't....
<eihrul> activations are allocated and managed by the 'receiver'
<Zhivago> and mine is faster since I don't have processes
<Zhivago> so there's no IPC
<eihrul> they are not allocated by the kernel implicitlt
<Zhivago> thus it takes 0 time
<Zhivago> and I leave out the kernel as well, so I save time there too
<eihrul> umm, i have threads running in the same address space as well
<eihrul> no big deal
-:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving)
<eihrul> air: so i don't harvest activations :)
<air> heh u scared him off 
<eihrul> i just keep a list of user supplied activations
<air> sure :)
<eihrul> i do...
<air> call it what u want
<eihrul> to reduce the cost of doing that
<eihrul> i keep a circular list
-:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes
<Zhivago> oops
<eihrul> and just make the iterator point to the next activation
<eihrul> that way i don't even have to unlike it from the list :)
<Zhivago> the big deal is that having just one address space and no kernel
<Zhivago> means that there's no IPC to overhead
09:50pm
<eihrul> again, that's very novel
<eihrul> but it takes a lot more work :)
<Zhivago> and it makes your context switches extremely cheap
<eihrul> you have to provide a lot of support at the language level
<air> Zhivago: ya u gotta stop pushing the quit button when u mean to push the "slaps $nick with a trout" button
<Zhivago> air: button?
<eihrul> and i don't have enough time to build a super-compiler-thingy :)
<Zhivago> ei: in any case my system avoids continuations where possible
<eihrul> what are you using as your language?
<air> i have no ipc in brix
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<air> i use a very powerful scriping language
<eihrul> i said, zhivago
<air> and i said I
<eihrul> i've heard your schpiels before air :)
<air> :)
<Zhivago> hmm, oh, a scheme dialect
<Zhivago> which is currently relatively useless since I don't have 1st class functions
<Zhivago> <grind grind>
<Zhivago> have to fix that after I get the inline assembly working lisp-style
<eihrul> ah, mine is very simple... i'm just going to have an assembler, probably nothing more
<eihrul> since i'm not trying to make my system for general use
<Zhivago> fair enough
<Zhivago> for the most case, I don't intend to hold significant state in threads
<Zhivago> so it should not be necessary to hold continuations much
<Zhivago> s/hold/hold much
<Zhivago> the idea at the application level is to make them event driven
<eihrul> a timer interrupt is an event....
<Zhivago> so applications normally hold no threads, when they receive an event/task to do they acquire a thread from the graveyard and process it unless they already have one in which case they can either get another one and handle it in parallel, or just queue it a
<Zhivago> and return the event-giver
<Zhivago> which means that apps tend to grab a thread for a very short period, so something, and then get rid of it again
<Zhivago> unless they need to do something incrementally constructive in which case continuations are the go
<_ruiner_> nasm?
<abi> nasm is at http://www.cryogen.com/nasm or at http://www.erols.com/johnfine/
<_ruiner_> quakec?
<eihrul> i don't maintain too much state in my activations anyway though
<Zhivago> and since getting a thread is an atomic pop, and register assign and stack pointer reset, its extremely cheap
<eihrul> just the general purpose registers and segment registers
<Zhivago> eihrul: you also need to retain the stack
<Zhivago> eirhul: otherwise you can't continue
<eihrul> that is the stack....
<Zhivago> ok, so you don't have a stack
<Zhivago> just the registers
<Zhivago> which is ok I guess if you have trivial programs which don't spill
<eihrul> user level stacks are handled at the user level
10:00pm
<Zhivago> so this doesn't apply to in-process threads then
<eihrul> eh?
<eihrul> all it needs to maintain is the ESP register
<eihrul> if the thread wants to do sophisticated stack management with it, that's its job
<Zhivago> right, so you're maintaining the stack in the process
<Zhivago> which is effectively saving the stack, its just already saved for you
<eihrul> just the stack pointer
<eihrul> which is a general purpose register
<eihrul> i just do a pushad :)
<Zhivago> yes, that's all I need to do for a context switch, and a restore
<eihrul> yah, that's all i do 
<eihrul> well, aside from the segment registers :)
<Zhivago> you'll need to do more if you have more than one address space
<Zhivago> you'll need to instruct the VM
<Zhivago> er MMU
<eihrul> okay, so maybe CR3 :)
<eihrul> but otherwise, nothing else
<eihrul> don't have to do CR3 if threads are in same address space
<Zhivago> yes
<eihrul> or activations i should say
<Zhivago> although you'll need to pop up to a higher ring and do the switch from kenrel-space
<eihrul> yes
<air> eihrul: ipc = inter process communication
<air> eihrul: that means they ARENT in the same address space
<eihrul> yeah
<eihrul> and indeed i do IPC
<eihrul> which can double as ITC as well :)
<eihrul> Zhivago: i think multiple address spaces have some benefits though....
<eihrul> but perhaps not enough to outweight the performance advantages of removing them... hrmmm
<Zhivago> eihrul: what benefits apart from conservative security?
<eihrul> helps page frame fragmentation :)
<Zhivago> hmm
<eihrul> if some apps all want large collections of pages
<eihrul> they don't need to be linear in memory
<eihrul> just mapped linear in memory :)
<eihrul> and then even if you only have one address space
<eihrul> virtual memory still let's you do disk swapping
10:10pm
<Zhivago> yes
<Zhivago> I intend to make full use of that for a persistent virtual memory layer
<Zhivago> with journalling :)
<eihrul> and that would aid somewhat with fragmentation as well
<eihrul> if you carved up the address space
10:20pm
<Zhivago> hmm, I'm not sure why that's an issue
<Zhivago> why do I care how the pages are physically layed out?
<Zhivago> I care about how they're layed in store for latency issues
<Zhivago> and I care about page boundary crossings somewhat
<Zhivago> but apart from that, I'm not aware of any issues...?
<eihrul> if some app wants a so-and-so-length run of pages
<eihrul> it might not be able to get it 
<Zhivago> oh, well, that's not the application's problem
<Zhivago> that's the allocator, and gc's problem
<Zhivago> and since I'll be looking at a defragmenting gc, and that should be easy to fix
<Zhivago> so basically at this point allocation involves just grabbing memory from the top of the image
<Zhivago> later I'll need a more interesting allocator, since that makes defragmentation a bit expensive
<Zhivago> but I can move my objects around safely so fragmentation is easy to deal with
<Zhivago> I just pick the objects up, and change their addresses :)
<Zhivago> which is moderately expensive, so you save this kind of stuffing around for dead-time
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
10:30pm
<Zhivago> a generational system reduces the expensive since you tend to have relatively few inter-generational references
<eihrul> hrmm, you releasing the source to this when it's all done?
<Zhivago> especially in the emphemera which you don't bother defragmenting since you can promote them in a defragmenting fashion
<Zhivago> well, ths system needs its source to run
<Zhivago> so presumably
<eihrul> how are you bootstrapping?
<Zhivago> s/run/be useful
<Zhivago> hmm, I stripped down the retro booter, and I prepend it to my image
<Zhivago> the retro booter's job is now to load the non-paging area
<eihrul> er... n'm
<Zhivago> and get into pmode
<eihrul> your statement above sounded like the OS was written in your language
<Zhivago> after that we're running happily
<Zhivago> the OS is written in this langauge
<eihrul> well then how does it "compile" it's source
<Zhivago> with the compiler also written in this langauge
<eihrul> what is the initial interpreter/compiler/whatever in
<Zhivago> hmm, the compiler is written in itself onec its self-hosting
<Zhivago> currently its written in portable scheme
<Zhivago> so once it compiles portable scheme, it will compile itself, and we're smiling
<eihrul> ah
<eihrul> fair enough
<Zhivago> of course we'll have to make it non-portable to work the way we want
<Zhivago> but that's the way it goes
<Zhivago> getting it to produce code-objects/modules
<eihrul> 'we'?
<Zhivago> yeah, there's a couple of us
<Zhivago> demoncrat, alycat, voidptr
<Zhivago> a couple of interested people, just need to get over this next critical step
<Zhivago> but demoncrat is doing some commercial work at the moment, and I've just moved house, and aly is busy :)
<Zhivago> so this last week or so has been zero production
<Zhivago> I'm working on getting access to the op-code layer as though they were lisp functions at the moment
<Zhivago> which will get rid of the current primitive code
<Zhivago> and make writing drivers much more efficient.
<eihrul> hrmm... falling asleep, must go... but interesting idea i suppose
<Zhivago> need to be able to get the address of a function, and use the asm layer to determine the calling convention of a function
<Zhivago> then I can do signals and isr's
<Zhivago> heh, later
-:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp79.lvdi.net] has left #tunes []
10:40pm
<air> YES
<air> brix is working
11:30pm
<air> i spent 2-3 stinking weeks working on BFE so it could find a single faulty line in my code and it found it fast
11:40pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1001
IRC log ended Fri Oct  1 00:00:00 1999