IRC log started Thu Sep 30 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0930 water: you're welcome to start conversation less dry and useless 12:10am back hello water .. what's new? smkl: new since when? hmm eihrul: still here? since month ago oh, well i've got linux on my new desktop machine, and my request for research assistance was not fruitful and of course, i've been trying to refine my formal theories for arrow 12:40am i will be going on vacation in a week and a half, so i will have time to completely relax and then focus on results (both code and theory) i intend to have a fully-functioning basic arrow system by the end of next month it will be a "demonstrator" by exhibiting the basic concepts outlined in the introduction enough info for you? :) yes ... lol ok water: yes or rather, i'm still here eihrul: any ideas for conversation? better yet, any interest in high-level programming? 12:50am so far as i will need a high-level language (compiler for such) once my kernel is finished like c? :) no... i do not like green c and ham... what language then? * smkl/#tunes is reading rudy rucker's "infinity and mind" ... it seems to have same kind of philosophical ideas as water water: that is the question, indeed... eihrul: what criterion for language selection/creation? smkl: haven't heard of it my expectations are very low at this point... eihrul: expectations? what do you expect? what do you really want? perhaps one with much better support for generic programming/meta-programming... eihrul: looked at maude? nope abi: maude? i don't know, water damn check the language review page abi: maude is a rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ abi: maude is a reflective system based on rewrite logic at http:.//... ...but maude is a rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/... dern you beat me smalltalk would be an easy port, though, and it does handles reflection, though not incredibly well 01:00am and making a lisp interpreter would be really easy -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp80.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp159.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes 01:10am wb water: so smalltalk would be relatively simple to implement? (compared to other languages i could choose from) well, there are lots of implementations, and a few are open squeak? i guess squeak is a cool language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars! yeah any others? gnu smalltalk there's also pocket smalltalk could you give me urls for the two? which is a very simple implementation www.gnu.org :) pocket smalltalk is there as well? as for the other... www.pocketsmalltalk.com they all have c-code sources that could be a problem why? need to set up a cross compiler, but i suppose i'd need to no matter what yeah, that'd be true for any language though would even need to get C runtimes for my kernel as well if the implementation uses any of libc 01:20am vm-1.5.zip - 35 kilobytes pocket indeed yep it sacrifices a lot for size, though 01:30am hrmm... not good, wrists starting to get sore stinging even oww what is the ide like for ps? (typing 1-hnded) it's a special version of gcc rhide i think, but i haven't tried programmings for ps 01:40am hmm, i could map the smalltalk vm into clients with shared memory... would work out nicely that's certainly different to say the least would only require one copy of the VM in memory :) except for the data portions perhaps -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from forward.openprojects.net [01:46am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com forward.openprojects.net -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- td [x@1Cust90.tnt3.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net] has joined #Tunes 01:50am -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason) good night. i'll be back in a few hours -:- water [water@tnt-10-68.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) 02:20am -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -NickServ(s@NickServ)- Unknown command fuck. "/msg NickServ HELP" for help. 03:20am -:- water [water@tnt-9-225.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us724.javanet.com] has joined #tunes apparently there's a big inet bottleneck lately 05:40am -:- fab [fab@ppp-163-227.villette.club-internet.fr] has joined #TUNES lo :) 06:30am -:- Cam [user5609@estudo-mat-1.misc.fct.unl.pt] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff fab: #TUNES (Ping timeout for fab[ppp-163-227.villette.club-internet.fr]) -:- SignOff Cam: #TUNES (Leaving) anyone here? 06:40am well, if anyone wants to see the revolutionary idea (or not) of the decade, check out the Amin Thermodynamic Cycle specs, and check the theory they have published for scientific inconsistencies, please i am where? i looked it over and haven't seen any discrepencies , although the idea is still no perpetual motion machine er... just a sec for the url http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/21641.html pdf files have the thoeyr on the site gotta go later -:- water [water@tnt-9-225.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 07:00am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us724.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us245.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-4.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: to the rescue!) -:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp173.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) !NickServ:*! lilo used GETPASS on klatu -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial604.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Anyone listening? * smkl/#tunes is Wanna talk? I've got a new Ultra-Kewl Idea (c) about what? 12:20pm you can tell me... An OS The Ultra-Kewl (tm) part is: the UI runs in a ridiculously small Java applet in the user's browser; the rest of the OS runs in a remote server * Kaufmann/#tunes pokes smkl 12:30pm ohh * smkl/#tunes has beep off *sigh* that might make too much load for the server we make a bigger server, with a broader connection. 12:40pm -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial604.infolink.com.br]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us202.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [02:02pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us202.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- NegativeN [s720@snutebille.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes hi Q? -:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp79.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff NegativeN: #TUNES (Ping timeout for NegativeN[snutebille.ii.uib.no]) -:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes 02:50pm liar: is bfe still working? -:- NegativeN [s720@snutebille.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff NegativeN: #TUNES (Leaving) 03:00pm -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-136.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes eihrul: uhh ya eihrul: why wouldnt it? bugs... what bugs? bugs that might pop up after you fixed it i was using it on brix last night and didnt find any bugs i did find some things i need to add to make it easier, like a goto search thing on the structures. scrolling thru a 5000 item list to find something sucks and maybe i should add user settable start/end points so u dont have to wait while it reads in 5000 items from the list 03:20pm -:- lar1 [LarMan@63.27.230.66] has joined #tunes Hey 03:40pm hey i got a working copy of bfe on the page u need bochs 981102 to use it since 990925 has a bug 03:50pm ok The 486 emulation doesn't work for bochs? The debugger is messed up in versions greater then 981102 04:00pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us202.javanet.com]) Ahh 486 emu works fine, now that i told kevin to enable the AC bit in eflags so the OS can detect it as a 486 the debugger works fine in the newest versions of bochs it just has a bug that makes it not work with bfe Hmm its a kewl program Whats the bug? after about 899-1000 commands bochs will stop sending output back thru the pipe Thats a very interesting bug -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us202.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hmmm i wonder if its because he is sending some other crap thru the other pipe and im not reading from it 04:10pm lar1: why didnt u take the program? liar: What is buttons.exe? Beholder: run it liar: take what program? lar1: the one im trying to dcc send Children's books that didn't make it. Whats the extention? Stupid mIRC likes to block things... I hate windows... lemme shut that off 3. Dad's New Wife, Robert .exe ok, I'll take it now What is this program? 8. Curious George and the High-Voltage Fence 11. Some Kittens Can Fly. Heh 15. Garfield Gets Feline Leukemia 21. Pop! Goes the Hamster ... and Other Great Microwave Games 25. Eggs, Toilet Paper, and Your School 26. Why Can't Mr. Fork and Ms. Electrical Outlet be Friends? * Beholder/#tunes thinks that sounds like the "children's books that should have been written" list :) heh 38. What is that Dog Doing to that Other Dog? 04:20pm liar: That buttons.exe is stupid lar1: did u press yes? Yup did u close em all? No I killed the process damn I killed the process too ;) i got a couple ppl to click on all of them :) You think I am _that_ stupid? u want me to answer that? :) Heh just add that to the desktop of everyone u know How many does it make? and all the comps are work/school enuf to cover yer desktop Heh... make a version for macOS and the school will have it :) wow Glad I killed it liar: What do you sugest for a 4w audio amp? Is there some simple way to do it with descrete components, or should I go op-amp? uhh * lar1/#tunes hides op amp sucks shit How do they suck? The lm383 doesn't look _too_ bad and so does 4 watts -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) Beholder: whats yer email? beholder@unios.dhs.org I ain't driving a large thing here... its to drive some speakers for bass liar: Gonna send me brix? ;) Wich are toooo bassy at 50w Beholder: something even better liar: Better than brix? Wow, must be sending me Tunes ;) hehe Heh Nah, hes really sending you raven Hahaha :) lar1: i sent it to u too liar: got it, tnx, reading Uhhh.... that pretty weird 04:30pm u have no sense of humor I don't check my mail till tonight :) why? I didn't say it wasn't funny... I just said it was weird :) liar: Cuz I get tons of crap, and I feel obligated to answer some of it, then I loose moments of my life ;) u only have to read the one from me later u can read the rest * Beholder/#tunes is buggin my friend... tellin him that bad spelling in ICQ messages will crash windows 98... hehe Well, I must go now, I'm helping my friend install FreeBSD on his machine. later Beholder later :) -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-136.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- ElGato` [no@209-68-229-135.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes 04:40pm Hey gato hi what's up? not alot are we still waiting to see real HLL code ? :( Yup yup oh my that's the only thing hindering us 04:50pm -:- water [water@tnt-9-143.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey all Hey arg! i missed Beh again hll? its amazing how different the traffic volume is between the squeak and tunes mlists -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[63.27.230.66]: No route to host) 05:10pm -:- lar1 [ArkMan@63.28.84.145] has joined #tunes wb :) Earthlink is bad news over here water!!! !!! !!! what? daddy :D uhh hi what's up, guy? where you in san diego lately? i left there two weeks ago or so ah i was gonna write you a physical letter why? beats me bored i guess i guess so i suck at c :( i get so many errors when i try to compile so i haven't gotten very far on my compiler heh don't look to me to help with that 05:20pm * lar1/#tunes thinks asm compiler in asm... good idea? water: i know methinks i will drag core into my problems :D i'd like to speak to him as well or anyone to whom tunes is important ... regarding the arrow paper i have a question yes? about homoiconic thingy ma bobers :D That arrow paper when at least 20 trillion miles over my head aren't most programming languages homoiconic? homoiconic -> like smalltalk or lisp a small set of primatives? "typeless" by trivially basing everything on one type yes, that too but c++ has a set of static primatives is it not homoiconic? eek. no what type in c++ is the basic type? uh nothing int i guess :D exactly I'd say char, its the smallest Or Bool and it's complicated to explain the rest of the language in terms of chars or ints or bools or whatever what about an untyped or dynamically typed language? whereas in smalltalk (or self) everything is explained as an object actually, the squeak project is starting to remodel its primitives as objects which i think is really interesting for reflection how does a language being homoiconic make it more reflective or easier to reflect well, untyped languages usually have a single implicit type, like a CONS cell or an object because if you can characterize that single type, then you can characterize all types built out of that type in small talk, how are specific members of an object accessed? well, smalltalk has variable access primitives, but usually they are only used by 'accessor messages' in self, no variable access primitives exist, which is cleaner so how are they accessed? 05:30pm well, the variable access is basically implicit accessor messages are added implicitly whenever you refine an object with an 'add-data-slot' primitive now, smalltalk and self and lisp aren't perfect, which is what arrow is for (no, it's not perfect either, but better) hmmm since i have no experience with self or smalltalk, you need to be more specific i reduce the type idea to an epistemic construct ok. examples: say i have a stack object StackObject actually, not a good example, because variable access for stacks is implicit say i have an object for a cons cell, called MyConsCell it would have two variables, head and tail but the accessor messages would be called 'car' and 'cdr', respectively so typing 'MyConsCell car' returns the 'head' of the object but the smalltalk code for 'car' would be 'return head' ok i see thanks usually, it's very bad practice to use direct assignments in any code other than accessors, because the message-send is usually compiled away easily and you can make the accessors perform type-checks 05:40pm ... cooly well, smalltalk ain't that fast unless completely compiled, but squeak may change that hmmm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[63.28.84.145]) when you off to sea again water? not for another 14 months ahhh..... :) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial879.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes :D cooly you'll be out of the navy in what two years? but when i do, it'll first be to san dog 2.4 hi kauf * ElGato`/#tunes ^5's water So I applied to the LokiHack thing (as seen on Slashdot), and I got picked oh the nt vs linux test? 05:50pm Nein what is it then? WATER someone I know is thinking about joining the navy. Yes I tried to discourage him. He doesnt seem too convinced. tril! tril! TRIL! :) good for you keep it up i bet ir's tril :D it's rather the cliche "someone i know" j/k :D you would lose that bet tril: i'm moving to downtown seattle tomorrow ok tril: do you actually live in christmas island? I think my dad is living in Seattle now. But he doesnt talk to us oh yes, and i received an answer from the professors whom i wrote As I understand it, Loki Software (port lots of games to Linux) decided that they'd assemble a group of outside programmers, put them together and give them the source code to Civilization: Call to Power (Linux port). As a reward, each of them would be given a brand spankin' new box. Elgato , uhh. no. haven't you heard of vanity domains sorry i haven;t err, I mean, havet you heard of countries selling off their TLD's because they don't need them? a vanity domain is like yourname.com which is not the right term. so .cx is like free .NU, .CX and many other countries which dont have a need for a while top level domain (TLD) have sold theirs to companies who register domains in them for money It's pretty cheap, go to www.cx tril: they are concerned that we have no concrete points of research interest intersection, and admit that they don't know of any academic circles with the interest actually i didnt pay for it, someone just emailed me and offered to let me use their bespin.cx which they paid for themself. Obviously, then, it's a ploy to get good code at relatively cheap prices. But to me, it sounded good, so I decided to give it a shot, and submitted my resume. Turns out they forgot to mention that the thing would be physical, based off their Atlanta, GA headquarters, and they do not pay airfares... kauf: cool later guys im off kauf: oh, bummer gotta do geometry homework :\ Tell me about it tril: squeak's getting reflective -:- SignOff ElGato`: #TUNES (Leaving) i'm not sure what you mean by "Research interest intersection"? squeak- good The bad part is, now they're likely going to get stuck with a bunch of inexperienced C++ programmers fresh out of college, who don't have one clue about what constitutes good software design. tril: although their research applies to my ideas (as a formalism to start from), they don't admit to having any results which could help that modification to the theory brb tril: yes, they're converting bytecode primitives into objects, and eventually will be able to invoke full compilation to add primitives dynamically 06:00pm sounds good. are you goign to be around more often? hell yes i'm going on vacation though next friday then i'll talk to you sometime..i'm leaivng for a bit right now * Tril/#tunes is still away!!!!! one week of complete relaxation and analog enjoyment, and one week of code/theory oh ok hmm:) water, what do you do in the Armed Forces? i run nuclear reactors within an aircraft carrier along with lots of technical maintenance right now, the ship is in the shipyards for a periodic overhaul 06:10pm What is your political outlook? er... the constructivist paradigm :) which effectively translates to existential pacifist anarchy of a sort I'm just asking because I'm a radical anarchist, and I just can't conceive of being in the military i came here to see pure evil, and boy did i find it i'm far from being the average soldier / sailor Figures in fact, it was a reason that i joined that they would never be able to determine just what i'm capable of Ever read _Cryptonomicon_? so that they don't try to control me the way they did in college yeah, i read it while on this last underway... borrrowed it from a friend Identify with Waterhouse? :) not randy :) yes, in a way but then i've never met anyone that i'd compare to alan turing, at least not in person i.e. "my train has not come in" 06:20pm The part where he gets classified by the Military as an idiot because of the test... I thought that was especially funny since something similar actually happened to me IRL oh.. well, i scored the highest possible scores within 2%, and they had told me how hard it would be beforehand. i almost had the nerve to backhand the guy when he suggested that i'm surprised that they didn't pick me as a crypto, since i scored best there, but they have trouble hiring and retaining nuclear tech's Figures... considering things like the Japan incident hehe their safety inspections must be really lax to allow as much uranium to be processed together as they did the nuclear navy is so strict that the dept of energy barely ever has to make inspections Anyway, a while ago I took an admission test for a new school... I completed the maths section (10 qs) in just under half an hour, got every question right, and scored zero in it. Turns out they couldn't figure out my calculations, so they figured I had cheated. I had to seat down with them and explain the demonstration for each of the questions step-by-step before they corrected my score... lol i learned a skill that is called number sense here, so that when i'm in practice, i don't ever have to "show calculations" beyond the results of simple algerbaic ops but i've gotten quite rusty in the last two years :( do you spend more time in land or in sea? I mean, if an accident happened, and I were stuck in the middle of an ocean in a nuclear vessel about to blow up, I'd be very disturbed 06:30pm but then, those kinds of jobs are for cheap, durable pda's (solar-powered eventually) they won't blow up and i'm serious about that... we'd have to be dead before they'd blow up