IRC log started Tue Oct  5 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1005
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-jcl(root@irc.zentek.net)- zheng.openprojects.net will be going up and down for the next 15-30 minutes. No cause for alarm, its just regular maintanence.
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<epsasnova> Hello peoples of the Aethernet
09:30am
<fare> ole
<epsasnova> Hello fares
<epsasnova> s/fares/fare
<epsasnova> fare - I read your Free Information Manifesto (or at least, the draft of it)
<epsasnova> fare, I believe you.
* epsasnova/#tunes smiles
<fare> believe me?
<fare> can you believe someone?
<epsasnova> Well, believe your propositions
<fare> you mean, agree with them?
<fare> agree that my arguments are correct?
-:- fare is now known as Fare
<epsasnova> fare, 'you' == 'your proposition'
<epsasnova> .
<epsasnova> I still have not grasped the intended structure of the TUNES system
<Fare> welcome to the club!
09:40am
* epsasnova/#tunes dons the smoking jacket.
<Fare> smoking? going out tonighit?
09:50am
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<water> hello, ppl :)
<smkl> hey water
<water> is fare still here?
<water> what about the others?
<water> darn
<smkl> i haven't seen Syntax or epsanova say anything
<water> anything new with you?
<smkl> i wrote a monad in haskell, but i don't know how to instantiate function type as monad
<water> interesting
<water> sorry, i don't have a haskell environment
11:30am
<smkl> hmm .. "gentle" introduction uses same kludge as i do
<water> hehe
<water> wow. someone has made a tree-based interface for squeak documents that also works with syntax-directed editing and code entry
* water/#tunes clicks on "download"
<water> with a little work, this could be an emacs-killer
<water> i have the haskell98 spec somewhere on my zip disks
12:10pm
<water> geez.. all the versions posted of that editor are bad archives
<water> but the screenshots look cool
12:20pm
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<water> hey td
<td> hey
<water> what's new?
<td> not a thing really
<water> well, it's quiet here, so if you want to talk, there's plenty of room
<td> i see that
<td> anything new happening w/ tunes?
<water> not with tunes
<water> i've been steadily improving the details of my arrow theory, though
<td> thats your paper then eh?
<water> well, my paper will hold the results of it, but i'm really working on a collection of more formal papers
<water> and especially code
<td> oh
<td> most of what i read was interesting
<water> i'm not going to update the intro, i've decided, until i can demonstrate it with a small working system (under smalltalk squeak)
12:50pm
<water> cool, thanks
<water> right now, i'm trying to work out how the ideas of epistemic modelling relate to my ideas for using arrows to model information
<td> cool
<td> this system seems like it'll do a lot for AI
<water> yeah, but i try not to focus on that
<water> i just want it to _work_ for now :)
<td> heh.. yeah
<water> seriously, though, i'm having problems figuring out how to give arrows access to the cpu (via abstract primitives)
<water> maybe i need to rewrite the code
01:00pm
<td> hrm. can't just abstract the machine opcodes?
<water> well, i naturally want to model the thing within the system
<water> and i already have smalltalk VM opcodes
<td> yeah
<water> i guess the basic problem is how to specify a graph from within arrow, since i could do the whole thing with a graph whose arrows are allowable system transitions
<water> the graph would execute smalltalk code in order to produce the new required arrows and graphs
<td> hmm
<water> "allowable system transitions" are the basic actions for the system, i guess
<water> but "how to do it?" is my central question
<td> a graph is made up of arrows connected to each other or something?
<water> it can be
<water> the arrows in a graph can point to anything... the point is that graphs contain arrows
<td> oh
<water> the arrows can point even to the graph itself, or to arrows in other contexts
<water> a traditional "directed graph" from mathematics would be a graph in my system where the arrows all point to a different independent set of arrows which act as nodes
<water> i.e. a network
<water> "reflective" or "degenerate graphs" in my system are ones where arrows point to other arrows within the graph... the same way a cons cell can point to another cons cell in the same data structure
01:10pm
<water> darn it, i'm talking to fast, aren't i?
<td> heh.. just a tad confusing
<water> yeah, i should make some gif's of these examples
<td> thats what i was thinking
<td> words alone are hard to imagine
<water> but my drawing abilities on computer are _terrible_
<td> heh
<water> it's amazing that i can be a really great sketch artist and painter, but on computer everything i do looks like s***
<td> yeah i know
<td> i need to try using tablets.. see how they work
<water> bleh... more and more money
<td> heh
<water> it's odd that even "natural media" art programs still operate like huge piece of machinery with control panels
<td> yeah
<water> blah, these web pages on philosophy don't introduce any theory that helps me
<td> i dont think anyone spends time on UI.  they just use existing methods
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<epsasnova> +/l debian
<water> epsas: ?
<epsasnova> typing snafu
<water> speaking of ui's that suck :)
01:20pm
<epsasnova> what's a UI that sucks?
<water> all these ones based on the 'look and feel' of machinery
<epsasnova>  water, I think the desktop model of UIs is horrible
<water> yeah, i agree
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<water> i've been considering a ui idea where 'modes' of interaction are the widgets
<water> ?
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<water> hey hcf
<hcf> hey wat
<hcf> sup?
<water> any suggestions for reviving the tunes mlist?
<water> working out some arrow theory
<hcf> funny u mention the mlist
<water> and figuring out how to get the code working, hopefully
<hcf> i was about to recommend that u start a thread
<water> what about?
<hcf> not sure
<water> arrow-related or tunes-related?
<hcf> shouldnt arrow discussion wait til u release a paper or 2?
<water> yeah
<water> but what can i say about tunes?
<hcf> has the mlist discussed tril's work yet?
<water> you mean the 'types and objects' prototype?
<hcf> yeah, that thing
<water> i don't even know if he's worked on it for the last couple of months
01:30pm
<hcf> would a discussion of it serve to get him back into it or is it pointless given his busy-ness?
<water> well, i'm not the one to discussit, since i don't really take it seriously
<water> (yes, that's an unreasonable position to take, i know)
-:- Miellaby [sgarden@Rennes-Villejean-5-161.club-internet.fr] has joined #TUNES
<water> hi miellaby
<Miellaby> hi water
<Miellaby> I read your paper
<water> cool, thanks
<Miellaby> You can assume me as one of your "fan".
<water> ok
<Miellaby> and yet I cant tell why.
<water> but don't distinguish me from "crackpot" until i get the code to do what i advertise
<Miellaby> I whish I could help you manage to code such a system.
<water> miellaby: well, the prototype code is on the tunes site and runs undeer squeak
<Miellaby> In smalltalk
<Miellaby> I saw it
<water> it's fairly portable, too, if you have another smalltalk, like gnu st
<smkl> how large is squeak installed?
<water> hmm. the vm is about 300k, and the standard image is about 5mb
<water> but then, i add a lot to my image, since i beta-test code quite often
<Miellaby> I'll prefer to recode it with a low-level language, as a Posix C-Program, it would be definitfly portable. Is it possible ?
<water> eek
<water> yeah, sure
<water> i did in smalltalk to make code-maintenance much simpler, though
01:40pm
<water> damn, must reboot
<water> my computer gets this random hw problem sometimes
<water> brb
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<water> back
<Miellaby> :)
<water> miellaby: so what about my ideas do you like? not like?
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<Miellaby> I"ve imagined a "homo-iconic" knowledge storing system for one year. I started working on a potential design. Maybe there are similarities with your own system.
<water> ok
01:50pm
<Miellaby> despite the fact I'm far less documented than you. I'm not mathematician neither.
<water> hmm. ok.
<Miellaby> :_(
<water> ?
<water> miel: a/s/l?
<Miellaby> ?
<water> age/sex/location?
<water> and why so sad?
<Miellaby> I'm just a ridiculous C-coder, 24 y old, Male, from France.
<Miellaby> Imagine new way of storing information is my hobby.
<water> oh. hmm.
<td> same here basically
<water> tried lisp?
<Miellaby> yes, I did. In France, Prolog is better used, I think.
* water/#tunes tries to contemplate why Horn clauses are better than Cons-structures.
<water> sorry, i don't get it
<water> well, there are environments for both in squeak
<Miellaby> I like IA, cognitive sciences, more precisly neural networks. Prolog didn't interest me a long.
<water> nn's are fine, but the question remains about what to do with the info gathered by them
<water> well, have either of you any suggestions for the arrow idea, anyway?
02:00pm
<Miellaby> I let you have the ideas :)
<water> :P
<water> i've been the entire development team for the last six years
<Miellaby> nobody else was interested ?
<water> oh yeah, i almost forgot. squeak code can be translated into c by one of the programs included in the squeak image
<water> miel: oh, people have been interested in seeing the results, but no one wants to put in the time to fully understand the ideas
<Miellaby> To convice a lot of people, the system should show itself as a deamon in a carrier existing system, so that it will be always available, no redondancy in the system. For a while, this strategy would allow to merge Arrow with classical applications.
<water> right, which is another of my reasons for picking squeak
<water> mergin smalltalk code is trivial :)
<water> merging
<Miellaby> this is a point of view.
<water> what is? that long sentence above of yours?
<Miellaby> no; merging smalltalk. How do you do that?
<water> well, there is currently a squeak project to make squeak code embeddable into web docs, particularyl for xml
<water> also for making squeak run on java vm's, and for vice versa
<Miellaby> these features looks usefull. But for a new system, I think people would like rather to isolate it in a corner of their usual system.
02:10pm
<water> what's wrong with that?
<Miellaby> Such as a DDB manager. When you need it, you open a session on it. But you can still use your prefered language to build the skeleton of your application.
<water> well, sure
<water> the diff between usual languages and arrow is that arrow allows arbitrary info-reuse, which will make it the crossroads of info distribution. anything that shares info via the arrow system is part of it
<water> since the arrow system will be able to get any info from systems connected to it, given a spec of that system
<Miellaby> In fact, there is a lot of solutions. But as for me, a deamon would the most efficient one. // OK, I guess it.  My idea(?) is just that for a while, it's of course possible to assume applications aer isolate agents out of the system, as a human being.
<water> yep. for the most part, the other apps will be modelled like users - as agents
02:20pm
<Miellaby> Some interpreted languages met a better success because it was possible to communicate with the interpretor from a classical program. I think about Tcl (Tcl/Tk). This is a current situation with Prolog too.
<water> maybe that explains why prolog is popoular, but what's the difference between that and being able to embedd smalltalk into xml or something else?
<water> damn. i must reboot again
<water> brb
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<Miellaby> water: On unix platforms, pipes and other process communication features own to the set of OS primitivs. If you use this protocol when designing -for instance- an intelligent agent, you're sure that it will be able to be handled by any existing softwares, systems, languages. It's very simple, in C for instance, to open a pipe, launch a foreign application linked to it (like a Arrow Client process) so to make your application delegua
<water> i hate to say it, but there is a unix pipe project underway for squeak, called OSProcess
<Miellaby> hm.
<water> the coders are very ambitious for squeak
02:30pm
<smkl> squeak seems to be living in it's own world
<Miellaby> I have to leave. It was nice to meet you.
<water> but most of the last two projects i mentioned won't be ready for a few months
<water> ok, miel
<Miellaby> bye.
<water> bye
-:- SignOff Miellaby: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> it's own world?
<water> what do you mean?
<smkl> well, not using much of the OS features
<water> well, they're trying to stay os-independent for the central image development
<water> as opposed to java, where for instance thread management is os-dependent, not to mention api features
<water> there are coders working on direct file-system interfaces, instead of what we have now, which is just a file browser
<water> how else would it already have been ported to about a dozen oses and a few pda's?
02:40pm
<smkl> portability is an advantage .. OTOH it's a bit slow and perhaps uses more memory than necessary
<water> yes, that's true
<water> some are working with the vm code to make just-in-time compilers, though
<smkl> it's not nearly as bad as SML/NJ and perhaps cmucl
<smkl> (in mem usage)
<water> and maybe the 3.0 release (single-digit releases result in image-format changes) will help  a bit
<water> the problem is that the code is changing too fast for us to modularize the code well enough
<water> and people have put quite a lot into the standard image that other systems simply don't have
<water> have you actually used squeak and checked out all the code?
<smkl> nope... i just dl'd the binaries and ran it
<water> open a browser from the squeak desktop and look at how many code libraries there are
<water> or just chekc out the "play with me" windows
02:50pm
<smkl> there is a very lot of stuff
<water> there's a way to remove a lot of code from the image, and it's been debated whether or not this should be done
<water> i mean, to offer "stripped down" images for downloads
<water> for instance, i've heard that a "headless" image could be made in 500k for the purposes of embedding squeak into programs
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<water> hey, eihrul
<eihrul> lo
<smkl> gfx etc. most take a very lot resources
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<water> hey air
<water> smkl: yeah
<air> hey watef
<air> er water
<water> kb working yet?
03:00pm
<air> no
<air> i got some new toys today and i'm required to play with them first :)
<water> of course :)
!lilo:*! hi all....just remember, please register your nick....it makes it easier for us to ensure you always get to use it 8)
<air> 2 cyberstiks and a total recall touch thingy
<water> uhh.. ok
<water> damn... reboot time
<water> i have to figure out what this hw problem is
<air> whats wrong?
<water> occasionally i get this alarm from the machine that results in a high-pitched speaker noise
<water> it's unbearable, but i can't find anything wrong with the machine
<water> and the cpu temp is fine
<water> well, i'll return later
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
03:10pm
-:- SignOff td: #TUNES (bbl)
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<air> hey
<lar1> Hey
<lar1> Has Bespin's security been comprimsed?
<air> dunno, why?
<lar1> I get a message telling me to login with SSH and not telnet if possible because a 3rd party could be intercepting the data
<air> heh
<lar1> I assume that is just a paranoia thing going on?
<air> probably
<lar1> Good :)
<air> man this debugging crap sucks, even with bfe
<lar1> Debugging ASM is a pain
<air> no debugging a multithreaded OS is a pain
<air> especially when u have ints going off
<lar1> :)
<lar1> Oooo... ouch!
<lar1> Stupid ints!
04:40pm
<air> and when i press a key i will get a press message and a release message, but i was debugging last night and one time i didnt get the stupud release
<air> ugh, wanna debug this for me?
<lar1> Umm. not really
04:50pm
<air> i'll give ya $100
<lar1> Heh right
<lar1> Like I could do it
05:00pm
<air> its easy u just step thru the code until it crashes and figure out where it crashed
<air> it would be real kewl if bochs had an undo
<air> then i could step back a couple instructions to see why it crashed instead of restarting
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<fire> hi
<air> hi
<fire> syntax: hey sugar
<fire> :D
<fire> get it?!
<fire> hey air
<fire> what's up?
<air> i know have tcp/ip working in brix and a half-ass working browser
<air> s/know/now/
<fire> damn
<fire> your getting pretty far
<air> still only works on a millenium tho
<fire> seen Fare
<fire> er
<fire> abi: seen Fare
<abi> Fare was last seen on IRC 7 hours, 27 minutes and 54 seconds ago, saying: smoking? going out tonighit? [Tue Oct  5 09:41:42 1999]
<fire> damn
05:10pm
<fire> abi: seen pyro
<abi> pyro was last seen on IRC 4 days, 3 hours, 30 minutes and 49 seconds ago, saying: hey [Fri Oct  1 13:39:12 1999]
<fire> and finally
<fire> abi: seen core
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 7 days, 1 hours, 49 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying: what's up? did you write more of EMK? [Tue Sep 28 15:20:31 1999]
<air> wtf?
<fire> anyone here program in oberon?
<air> no but i have used it
<fire> ah
<fire> what's it like?
<air> modula? pascal?
<fire> ah
<fire> my brother has to write an oberon 2 compiler for his compiler class
<air> bummer
<air> i dont like pascal, modula or oberon
05:20pm
<air> they have too much syntax crap
<fire> i haven't programmed in any of them
<air> air:=b? cmon
<fire> yes syntax is very bad
<air> stupid nick completion
<air> well if u want to assign a value to a variable u do x=y in C and x:=y in pascal
<fire> yeah
<fire> so?
<air> extra syntax crao
<air> crap
<fire> one extra character
* fire/#tunes doesn't see the big deal behind ML
<lar1> DAMN!  I made a file 68 meg of counting.. (1\n2\n\3\n) :)
<lar1> It has a purpose though :) :)
<fire> heh
<air> damn, i see now why m$ doesnt remove all their bugs
<air> this sucks
<air> i gotta go get some cookies
<lar1> Hmm, yes the data I want has been accuired!
05:30pm
<lar1> Just think... if I mad emy program do all permutations of numbers _AND_ letters.. oh boy
<lar1> I got to go... I'll be bfack later
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
<fire> im off too
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
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05:40pm
<water> foo
<air> is there an easy way to send a continuous stream of s's to bochs and redirect stderr to a file?
07:00pm
<air> ouch, when u load a 28meg file into pico it sucks a bit of ram
07:20pm
<water> hehe
-:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.131.62.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey again
<water> hey
<lar1> Hey water!
<water> got a bone to pick on some subject?
<lar1> water:  What do you think I would need to learn inorder to help you with <>/Arrow?
* water/#tunes contemplates the 1.6gb collection of research papers he has.
<water> hmm...
<water> :)
<lar1> Well, with in reason, what do you think are key things I should know before starting? (Assuming you want me too)
<water> well, there's arrow logic, ontologies
<water> you can get a book or two on arrow logic, or there's accial on the web
<water> abi: accial?
<abi> accial is "A Crash Course in Arrow Logic" at ftp://ftp.phil.uu.nl/pub/logic/PREPRINTS/preprint107.ps.Z
<lar1> Ok
<water> there has been quite a few things written on ontologies, which my "abstract ontologies" idea generalizes
<lar1> ontologies?
<water> aside from that, the usual research into (abstract) computer programming languages is enough to look at
07:30pm
<water> yeah, ontologies are sets of bindings to primitive language values that encode knowledge about that those things
<lar1> Uhh, what?
<water> in other words, if you have a framework of objects that models the real world, the code tells you how it works, but an ontology relates their meaning to that of other objects
<water> http://www.ask.com/main/metaAnswer.asp?MetaEngine=Yahoo%21&logQID=37CB9AA7927BD31195DB00A0C9D4BA8C&qCategory=&qSource=0&frames=yes&site_name=Jeeves&scope=web&r=x&MetaTopic=What+is+an+Ontology%3F&MetaURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-ksl.stanford.edu%2Fkst%2Fwhat-is-an-ontology.html&EngineOrdinal=1&ItemOrdinal=1&ask=What+is+an+ontology%3F+metasearch&origin=0&MetaList=http%3A%2F%2Fwww-ksl.stanford.edu%2Fkst%2Fwhat-is-an-ontology.html&x=24&y=5
<water> eek.
<lar1> Methinks that URL is a tad on the long side ;)
<water> er... i'll try to give shorter url's next time :)
<water> the idea is that you get modular knowledge re-use
-:- Syntax is now known as Kenetics
<water> cool
<lar1> Ontology = spec?
<water> yep. just like a program is a spec
<lar1> How is a program a spec?  Like how the computer should go about running or somthing?
<water> yes
<water> "specification of an algorithm"
<water> i think Knuth said that
<lar1> So ontology is just a fancy way to say soecification that is consistant?
<water> not just fancy, formalized
* lar1/#tunes bangs head multiple times... repeditivly!
<water> huh?
<lar1> I don't like words that are explained in very complex ways that mean mucho simple things
<water> welcome to computer science :)
07:40pm
* lar1/#tunes bangs his head again multiple times... repeditivly!
<lar1> Thats probly why the books are 1x10^999999 pages...
<water> well, sort of
<water> there are other reasons for that, but i digress
<lar1> Red tape and buzzword
<lar1> Those are the only reasons I need ;)
<water> there's a good reason for making the word "ontology"
<lar1> There is?
<water> yep
<water> let's put it this way: it formalizes what we usually do with comments
<lar1> Thats true
<lar1> Its not the word that bugs me as much as the definition
<water> formalization allows a computer to read the spec and "understand" it
<lar1> That makes formalization sound like the instruction set?
<water> well, there are quite a few in the field of ai that don't like that def either
<water> that's a good analogy
<lar1> Sweet!  Concept grokked! :)
<water> well, kinda.
<water> but good enough for now
<lar1> I think all things should be defined in the simplest way possible...
<lar1> Like in math class, how they always tell you to simplify.
<water> anyway, my point about ontologies is that they currently are implemented on top of computer languages
<lar1> How so?  Is not the language a form of ontology?
<water> e.g. prolog or mercury
<lar1> Prolog?  Mercury?
<water> well, describe how a language is an ontology: what primitives does it explain, and how does it relate them?
<water> oh geez
* lar1/#tunes hides
<water> prolog and mercury are declarative languages
<lar1> declarative languages?
<water> yes, they are simplified forms of standard logic
<lar1> Huh?
<water> you declare some terms, and the programs are proofs of properties of those terms
<water> the language literally consists of "and", "or", and "implies" (for prolog)
<lar1> Ugh
<water> and that's it, except for some hacks to make proofs easier to compute
<water> "ugh"?
<water> oh yeah, i forgot "not" :)
<lar1> Assembly - making sense + steroids = big mean badass complex language
<water> = c :)
07:50pm
<water> assembly makes sense?!?
<lar1> Yes
* water/#tunes whacks lar1 with a smalltalk-80 manual
* water/#tunes throws an Apple II running logo at lar1
* lar1/#tunes grabs water's hand, remobes the book stuffs it in lar1s ear
<water> abi: be lar1
<abi> it has been said that be lar1 is "assembly makes sense"
<lar1> Apple II?  I love those things!!!
<lar1> Damn stright!
<water> ask the average user if assembly makes sense
<lar1> It makes sense to _me_
<water> then you're the minority by far
<water> hey wait!
<lar1> air?  Back me up on this please
<water> what's the most challenging program you ever wrote?
<lar1> In asm?
<water> in _any_ language
<lar1> I don't konw
<lar1> You asked me yesterday
<lar1> And my response was Mandelbrot set I think
<water> exactly
<lar1> I am not counting the work I have done on Raven
<water> you've never wrote anything besides simple programs and asm/c oses
<lar1> Raven is pure asm so far
<water> and besides that, you've never worked with a _real_ compiler
<lar1> And the mandlebrot set in pure asm hurts the head
<water> no kidding!
<water> what if you could write the mandlebrot set in mathematica?
<lar1> I wanted to make a fly throuhg thing... cause my C version was too slow, 1/3 fps :)
<lar1> Mathematica?
<water> i.e. just type in the equations and describe the iteration and range, and opened a graph, and voila?!?
<lar1> Neat, but no fun
<lar1> If tril was awake he would be shouting elitist right about now
<water> "no fun"?
<water> it's fun to work for a long time on simple programs?
* water/#tunes thinks its more fun to explore the results of lots of code quickly and painlessly, instead of living through lots of headaches
<lar1> Fun!
<lar1> Fun!  Fun!  Fun!
<water> freak!
<lar1> Would I be coding my os in ASM if I thought it wasn't fun?
<water> no one can re-use your code
<lar1> So?
<water> no one can modify your code to do new things
<lar1> If they can't grok my code thats _their_ problem... not mine
<lar1> Assembly is plenty modifyable
<water> bwahahahhahaha!!!
08:00pm
<water> so, you write code like microsoft writes code
<lar1> No
<lar1> I write code how Lar1 writes code
<water> yeah, whatever
* lar1/#tunes thinks the windows source is in BGs favriote language... BASIC :)
<water> i'm saying that your os will die when you leave it alone, because no one else will want to grok it
<lar1> I don't plan on leaving it alone unless I have a reason too
<water> whereas in the real world, useful oses are written in languages where it's much simpler to re-write things when they break
<water> note: assembly breaks very easily
<lar1> What woud your ideal OS be written in?
<lar1>  <buzzword protection>
<water> lisp or smalltalk or ml or arrow
<lar1>  </buzzword protection>
<lar1> Ok...
<lar1> Mabye I didn't need that protection
<water> one of my goals is to have the system be able to modify _itself_ (it's own source code)
* water/#tunes grabs the TUNES reflection clue-stick and whacks lar1
<water> ever dealt with a computer software system that could read assembly and grok it?
<lar1> Sorcer?
<lar1> Commenting disassembler
<water> all those are designed to give the assembler help
<water> i mean to take the assembler (the person) out of the loop
<lar1> So you tell the comptuer 10=50x solve for x and it does?
<water> so that joe schmoe can change his os without having to beg you to spend time on it
<water> well, that's an extremely simplistic example, but sure
<lar1>  <hypocryte protecton>I like simplicity!</hypocryte protection>
<water> oh no, you don't get protection there! :)
<lar1> Uh oh...
* lar1/#tunes runs and hides
<water> lar1: imagine what it would take to change your os code from 32 bits to 16 bits
<water> or to re-implement it on a new cpu
<lar1> Hmm
08:10pm
<lar1> Cross-compile
<water> by yourself
<lar1> Uh, no
<water> think "i am a user"
<water> exactly
<lar1> Uh, no to by yourself
<water> you have to depend on programmers who give you the tools.
<lar1> True
<water> you can't change the tools. you have to ask the programmers to change them, or become a programmer yourself
<water> i'm saying that that is wasteful and wrong (ethically)
<lar1> But in a reflective architecture, doesn't everybody become a programmer in a sense?
<lar1> Anit elitist!
<water> yep. using _is_ programming
<lar1> in a reflective system or in generl?
<water> in general (sort of)
<lar1> How so in general?
<lar1> If I use WordPerfect, how am I programming?
<water> just think of wp as an interpreter
<lar1> How is it an interperter?
<lar1> Thats like saying my typewriter is an interpeter
<water> you give it instructions, and it formats the data (doc) according to a set of deterministic rules
<water> it _is_
<lar1> Does that carry over to typewriters?
<water> you have to think this way for reflective systems
<water> yes
<lar1> And does that carry over to all tools?
<water> in a way, yes
<lar1> How does fire interpet?
<water> lol
<lar1> How do minerals interpet?
<lar1> They _are_ tools!
<water> cybernetics
<lar1> No!  That adds a level of abstraction
<lar1> :)
<water> they interpret the current physical state, and return a new one (continuously, though)
<water> that's only because english sucks
<lar1> True on the first statement
<water> but then, so do most other languages
<lar1> Damnit!  you are winning all the hair splitting! heh :)
<water> i've spent a lot of time thinkng over these ideas
<lar1> I spend my time in math class (BORING) thinking these things over
<water> mathematics rocks, especially when you're making new theories or proofs
<lar1> Math == mucho cool, the math class I am in == mucho stupid
<water> learn about the programming languages and such that are out there
<water> not just c and asm
08:20pm
<lar1> I plan on learning more Perl?  Perhaps that should be delayed... youve made me quite curiouse to these HLLs
<water> eek.
<lar1> ekk to what part?
<water> p***
<water> :)
<lar1> Is perl as bad as c to you?
<water> yeah, pretty much
<lar1> Which you seem to put on the same pedistol as VB :)
<water> yep
<lar1> Are the words in <> easy to spell?
<lar1> I suck at spelling in English and Spanish
<water> the base vocab?
<lar1> Yes
<water> well, the spelling would be based on the sound of the word
<lar1> Oy vey
<water> i.e. no two words could be confused by a listener
<lar1> Cool
<lar1> I want to learn <>!
* water/#tunes has just opened a newly found Java Ontology Editor
<water> there's not much to teach yet
<lar1> J***??
<lar1> "eek!"
<water> lol
<water> unfortunately, yes
<lar1> I tried java and almost puked
<lar1> (more then onece)
<water> why? it's almost as weird as c! :)
<lar1> No no no!  C is mucho coolo compared to Java!
<water> huh? why?
<air> this damn code is pissing me off
<lar1> blah.this.this.this.that.who.where.how = include java.applet.applet!
<water> oh
<water> that's not the language, that's the api set
<lar1> air:  Back me up on the argument that ASM makes sense please :)
<water> you don't have to use the api's
<lar1> water:  How can Java be used - api's?
<water> easy... don't _call_ the api's :)
<lar1> That like saying don't include any headers in C
<water> hehe
<water> yep
<water> it's the same thing
<lar1> In order to do that, you need to write function in ASM to replace the ones you ditched
<water> no, replace the language compiler with a better one :)
<lar1> you can't use asm in java!
<lar1> or it woudn't be platform indpendent :)
<water> java _isn't_ platform independent
<lar1> Uhh
<water> lol
<lar1> The point of Java is to be platform independent, is it not?
<water> for one, thread management is os-dependent under java
<lar1> Bytecodes ring a bell?
<lar1> What??
<water> you can get bugs by running multi-threaded java apps on different platforms
08:30pm
<lar1> Yes, you can get bugs running multi-thread <insert fav. language here> apps on different paltforms as well
<water> not to mention the fact that the api set isn't unified, and is very low-level (dependent on endianism, etc)
<lar1> So, we have aggrement... java needs to be refered to as j***. :)
<water> yes
<lar1> good
<lar1> "..Someone who understands and sees through the MasterPlan." -- Blink 182
<lar1> I like that song
<water> do you listen to RadioHead?
<lar1> Never head their work.  I have heard of them.  Lemme see if I have any mp3s
<lar1> Yup, lemme take a listen
<water> what song?
<lar1> Paranoid Android
<water> cool
<lar1> This is some weird cool stuff
<water> that song is from an album called "OK Computer"
<water> it's about surrendering your will to the machine
<lar1> Ohhh yah, I remember when that came out
<air> damn a 386-20 can do quite a few "jmp short $" in 10ms
<lar1> Neat, surrendering to the machine... isn't that alittle apcolyptic?
<water> sort of
<water> it's actually very bland and grey
<lar1> air:  Uh oh... I don't even _want_ to know what yer code looks like right now :)
<water> like living in the 90's :)
<lar1> Heh
<lar1> The music of the 90s is awsome... its right there with Disco!!
<water> at least there's radiohead
* lar1/#tunes thinks he should further persue Radiohead mp3s... perhaps even a CD is the trend of coolness continues
08:40pm
<lar1> Mmm, Godsmack, Korn, Limp Bizkit, Blink 182, The Offspring they are all cool
<water> eek
<lar1> AHh!  My mp3 is cut short!
<lar1> You don't like the abovementioned bands?
<water> to say the least
<lar1> Who _do_ you like?
<water> 90's rock is terrible
<lar1> Ahhhh!
<water> not _who_, what
<lar1> wait for it... "eek!"
<lar1> True
<lar1> You are also older then me ( I assume )
<abi> okay, lar1.
<lar1> abi: you
<abi> i am speaking in abstract terms... Ambigous operators require parenthesis! or older then me ( I assume )
<water> i've become an avid fan of ambient electronica
<lar1> ambient electronica?
<water> yes, along with trance, drum&bass, and acid
<lar1> Is that like techno rave?
<lar1> acid?  Ugh
<lar1> acid = 60s
<water> kinda, except ambient is extremely different
<water> no, acid electronica = 90s
<lar1> Heh, is the same except for the simple undeniable fact that it is exteremly different :)
<water> nope... not at all
<lar1> Do you like Rush?
<water> unfortunately, the only mp3's for ambient that i've found are terrible
<water> rush is ok
<lar1> I have never head of ambient or ambient electronica...
<lar1> My english teacher would have us anaylsise Rush quotes all the time last year
* lar1/#tunes relizes his sentince about music hes herd of was malformed :)
<water> interesting
-:- water-squeak [water@tnt-9-78.tscnet.net] has joined #Tunes
<lar1> BRB
<water-squeak> ok
!Bhaal:*! Oh no, not this 'UZi' person again..?? *sigh*
08:50pm
* water/#tunes slaps water-squeak around a bit with a large trout
<water-squeak> stop that ;)
-:- water-squeak [water@tnt-9-78.tscnet.net] has left #Tunes []
09:00pm
<lar1> Who the heck is water-squeak?
<water> i was playing around with my squeak irc client
<water> beta-testing, actually
09:10pm
<lar1> Oh
<lar1> cool
<lar1> water:  Do you ponder philosophical topics often?
<water> yeah, well, it's not very good
<lar1> Oh, well then, not cool :)
<water> empsasis of "do" or "often"? :)
<water> emphasis
<lar1> do
<water> yes, but philosophy is not for me what it is for others
<air> not bad, a 386-20 can do over 80,000 "jmp short $" in 10ms
09:20pm
<lar1> I enjoy philosophy
<lar1> :)
<lar1> I don't go telling that around though... that puts the nerd lable on you faster then <eminem quote here>
<water> it's amazing how much crap shows up on the irc logs :)
<lar1> Yes
<lar1> Do you read them?
<water> yes
<lar1> Aie!
<water> more precisely, i mine them for important discussions
<lar1> I loose intrest after the first 9e999999999 pages
<lar1> I just do a grep <log> lar1
<lar1> Is it like a skim action until you find interesting conversation or do you read read it all?
<water> how do you grep a web directory?
<lar1> ?  I just download the current log file
<water> oh
<air> lar1: or u can telnet to bespin and grep it there
<lar1> air:  Thats why I perfer
<water> air: sure, but that isn't very useful
<lar1> s/why/what
<water> sigh
<lar1> Is < or > reidirect output?
<lar1> water: do you think reflection can be applied outside of the computer world?  Such as the mind
<water> duh.
<water> yes!
<lar1> I just had that thought as I was brushing my teeth
<water> abi: pcp?
<abi> rumour has it pcp is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/
<water> lar1: grok it
<lar1> Uh oh... Principa cybernetica?  You know yer in for it when things are spelled with an a!
09:30pm
<water> yeah, whatever
<lar1> I'm just kidding, geez :)
<lar1> WOAH!  Neato neato
<water> what's neato?
<lar1> This Principa Cypernetica thing...
<lar1> It claims to be philosophy++
<water> oh. i consider there ideas to be over-simplified
<lar1> Doh!
<water> s/there/their
<lar1> Hmm, isn't What
<lar1>              are good and evil?  bad english?
<water> poor english?
<lar1> :)
<water> no
<water> but then, english is a poor language
<lar1> What are good and evil? SHouldn't it be what is good and evil?
<water> no, it should not
<lar1> Hmm, ok
<lar1> Well, I better be off
<water> perhaps, "what is the concept of good and evil?"
<water> oh great
<water> bye
<lar1> great?  What?  YOu want me to stay longer?
<lar1> I am getting a service brain soon light :)
<water> no, but now only air will be left to talk to
<lar1> And you gotta ask yerself... do you _really_ want to talk to air? Heh, Just kidding
<lar1> Well I ceretenly did enjoy our discussion
<lar1> Again Tommarow?
09:40pm
-:- water [water@tnt-9-78.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
<lar1> Ok, that answers that :)
<lar1> Later all
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Heheheheheheheh! What?)
-:- water [water@tnt-9-78.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
09:50pm
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp293.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hey ruiner
<_ruiner_> hi water
<_ruiner_> whats up?
<water> trying to work on my ideas
<water> and you?
<_ruiner_> hmmmm....I am trying to figure out how to make a game
<water> what kind of game?
<_ruiner_> side scroller
<water> there have been plenty of engines for those
<_ruiner_> I'm writing my own
<_ruiner_> not really the most difficult thing in the world....the hard part is putting in something that sets it apart
<water> i wish that i didn't already know what language
<_ruiner_> commas please
<water> commas?
10:00pm
<_ruiner_> I didn't understand your previous statement
<water> i wish that i had to ask what language you're going to program it in, but i can bet on it being c
<_ruiner_> and what if I said something different?
<water> i might be pleasantly surprised
<_ruiner_> could you also be terribly horrified by something other than C?
<water> yes
<water> (vb comes to mind)
<_ruiner_> lol
<air> how do i remove every line from a file that has "bochs" in it?
<_ruiner_> delete the file
<Kenetics> hahaa
-:- Kenetics is now known as Syntax
<air> well thats one way, how bout the other
<air> oh and dont say format
<water> use smalltalk
<water> convert the file to a sequence of line objects
<air> ok someone other than water can answer my question
<water> :)
<water> i gave you an easy answer
<air> water: just consider yerself excluded from any questions i ever ask :)
<_ruiner_> what do you think of pascal?
<_ruiner_> I'll be using C by the way
<water> air: likewise :)
<water> ruiner: i never would have guessed
<_ruiner_> its what I know
<_ruiner_> besides, I don't know of any free compilers for other languages
<water> huh?
<_ruiner_> I'm using djgpp
* water/#tunes looks for that free compilers list on the web
<_ruiner_> you guys hear of the new processor amd is gonna work on?
<_ruiner_> 64 bit...booooyah!
<air> hmm where are all the intelligent ppl when ya need em
<_ruiner_> we're all intelligent, we just don't use bochs
<water> intelligent people don't make things hard for themselves by using c :)
<air> im not asking a bochs question
<air> and im not using C
<_ruiner_> right, intelligent people make things easy by using vb right? shyeah, right
<_ruiner_> water is drunk...our messages are running together air
<Syntax> water: what'd you come visit me in my other channel earlier today?
<water> ruiner: lisp, smalltalk, ...
10:10pm
<water> syntax: dunno. bored, i guess. i don't know you, do i?
<Syntax> no, heh, I was just wonderin' :-)
<_ruiner_> lisp? sounds like part of the rainbow revolution.....smalltalk...sounds like appletalk...which is mac....which is bad
<water> ruiner: get an education
<Syntax> reflective computing system?  this I must see
<_ruiner_> education starts with getting out of school
<Syntax> reminds me of a article I read today on the web
<_ruiner_> syntax: we'd all like to see....maybe if we all got into a spirit circle and chanted it'd magically show up
<Syntax> some kid in canada dropped outta school and got busted for smurfin'
<_ruiner_> little wanna be phreaker huh?
<Syntax> he's lookin' forward to 10 years in jail and his parents may face charges.  he said he doesn't care about what he did and if he goes to jail his friends will take down montreal in a second, lol
<Syntax> yeah, lamo to the extramo
* water/#tunes will be available on #modtunes, if anyone older than 15 shows up.
<_ruiner_> didn't a bunch of "hackers" go before congress and tell them they could take down the net within half an hour?
<Syntax> _ruiner_: l0pht.com ... I don't think they can, though
<_ruiner_> the entire internet
<Syntax> they've got some good crackers but not that good
<_ruiner_> hmmm.......
<Syntax> it's amazing that I talk about crackers and water now thinks I'm <=15
<water> ruiner: http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers
<water> syntax: now, why should i think that?
<water> :)
<Syntax> water: just cuz you generalize people from the conversation they strike up
<Syntax> that's just a guess, though
<Syntax> I merely brought up the story cuz _ruiner_ said somethin' about droppin' outta school and it reminded me of this article about this kid
10:20pm
<_ruiner_> that l0pht site is kewl
<Syntax> _ruiner_: yeah, I tried that l0phtcrack on the NT boxes I admin and it turns up some good results
<Syntax> I tried the SMB sniffer and it locked the NT box, lol
<_ruiner_> 70% of these are interpreters water
<water> oh well
<water> so shoot me
* _ruiner_/#tunes shoots water
<water> there are others that that site does not index
<water> some are also translators, btw
<abi> okay, water.
-:- td [x@1Cust189.tnt3.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> ooh, a vb clone....excellent!
-:- water [water@tnt-9-78.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
<_ruiner_> btw
<_ruiner_> hmmmm....
<_ruiner_> abi?
<abi> _ruiner_?
<_ruiner_> abi: qz
<_ruiner_> abi: liar?
<abi> i think liar is a hardware pimp
<_ruiner_> ruiner?
<abi> ruiner is, like, liar's hardware bitch
10:30pm
<Syntax> ok, I'm failing to understand what this channel is all about :-)
<Syntax> what's Tunes?
<abi> Tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated
<Syntax> huh?
<_ruiner_> lol
<_ruiner_> go look at tunes.org
<Syntax> I've read that like 8 times now and can't get it
<Syntax> I've seen the web page too
<Syntax> I'm startin' to feel stupid <G>
<Syntax> it must be somethin' simple and I'm readin' it the wrong way
<_ruiner_> how old are you?
<_ruiner_> just curious
10:40pm
<Syntax> 26
<_ruiner_> ah, thats it...you're too old....can't teach an old dog new tricks
<Syntax> maybe it's the wacky weed
<_ruiner_> especially tricks that don't exist
<Syntax> lol
<Syntax> I don't understand.  What is "reflective computing"?
<_ruiner_> use it in the sentence....
<Syntax> ?
<_ruiner_> basically it means that ....well
<Syntax> I'm throughly confused <G>
<Syntax> maybe it's best I don't know
<Syntax> maybe I can figure it out someday
<_ruiner_> it means that it will interact sorta...like any changes you make in the environment take effect and you can build on those...
<_ruiner_> sorta....if that makes sense
<Syntax> what will interact?  like a virtual city like Crystal Space?
<_ruiner_> what they're doing is embedding a programming language into the os...the os and programming language will be one and the same, and you can change the os by writing new code
<Syntax> oh
<Syntax> kinda like eggdrops and modules
<_ruiner_> hmmmmm......
<Syntax> or bitchx and modules
<_ruiner_> I think I asked that once and was nearly beheaded
<Syntax> lol
<Syntax> I take it back then
<Syntax> I didn't say that!!!
<_ruiner_> lemme look at the page
* Syntax/#Tunes whistles innocently
* _ruiner_/#tunes really hates pop up windows
<Syntax> Yep, it says there on the front page of http://www.tunes.org/ in big bold print "DO NOT EVER SAY OUR PROJECT IS LIKE EGGIES AND MODULES!!"
<td> imagine running windows within windows.. thats sorta reflective
<Syntax> like vmware?
<Syntax> sorry if I compare it to something you all don't like.  it's just my way of understanding something
<td> not really
<td> the system itself can run itself.. and 'observe' itself
<_ruiner_> good somebody else is here to explain it
<td> and also change it
<Syntax> ahh, that kinda makes sense
<_ruiner_> explaining tunes is like nailing jello to the wall
<td> so you can change the kernel while running it
<td> heh
<Syntax> that's cool
<Syntax> no need to reboot now?
<Syntax> er... soon?
<Syntax> this is kinda intresting
<td> no need to reboot ever
<_ruiner_> and waiting to see tunes is like waiting for the end of the world...somebody always says its coming...but it never does
* Syntax/#Tunes starts to think of the possibilites
<td> persistence is another cool thing
<Syntax> persistence?
<abi> persistence is another cool thing
10:50pm
<td> yea.. no such thing as saving files
<td> flip the power switch off and everything will remain the same
* _ruiner_/#tunes thinks the tunes project will die cuz they're trying to do too much of it at once, instead of incrementally creating it
<Syntax> so they're never written to disk?  they're always floatin' around and anyone (given the proper permissions) can open it, edit it, and all that good stuff?
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<_ruiner_> I hate spam...
<_ruiner_> linus? like the guy from peanuts with the blanket?
<td> well.. you know how you have to explictly tell programs to save files?
<Linus_> _ruiner_: no
<Syntax> td: yes, more than I'd like <G>
<Linus_> _ruiner_: that nick sucks
<td> persistence automatically saves files
<_ruiner_> lol
<_ruiner_> ok...
<Syntax> td: oh, so they are written to disk... automagically?
<Linus_> Syntax: :)
<td> yeah.. actually data is always stored to disk
<_ruiner_> what kind of gay name is linus anyhow?
<Syntax> td: or is it more on the line of the file being open on other distributed "reflective" computers so it's never closed and always has the latest update?
<td> ideally.  and then when a power outage happens you will always have your data
<Syntax> oh
<_ruiner_> something about the hard drive always being read and written to doesn't sit well with me
-:- Linus_ is now known as Psychonut
-:- _ruiner_ is now known as CharlieBrown
<Syntax> _ruiner_: you should see any common raid array
<td> no.. this is all local computer stuff
<Syntax> in a envirnment with 60+ people it'll constantly be taxed
<Psychonut> Syntax: I need to install a package 
<CharlieBrown> I think file corruption could be pretty rampant
<Syntax> td: OH, so you don't have to be part of the big 'net? intresting
<td> nope
<Syntax> CharlieBrown: I guess that can hold true but the bigger chance is when you're dealing with compressed data
<td> although it could work through a network possibly
<Syntax> Psychonut: go for it
<Psychonut> Syntax: I don't have roto
<air> any of u smart enuf to debug an OS without source?
-:- CharlieBrown is now known as _ruiner_
<_ruiner_> without source? 
<_ruiner_> what the fook?
<_ruiner_> to change code don't you have to see the code?
<air> oh u can see the code with a disassembler
<td> if the OS is written in pure asm then it wont be too difficult i imagine
<td> but if its slightly C/whatever then it might be a bitch
<air> all asm
<air> i still cant figure out why sometimes i get the second interrupt when the key is released and sometimes i dont
-:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[08-180.006.popsite.net])
11:00pm
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- Psychonut has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System at http://www.tunes.org/; Linux rocks
<Psychonut> deliver mail to /dev/null
<air> only the spam mail
<Psychonut> air; that's what I said deliver sendmail to /dev/null
11:10pm
<air> heh
<air> ok cross yer fingers, cuz im gonna go postal if this dont work
<Psychonut> ok -- kill billy gates forst.
<Psychonut> taht bitc
<air> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Psychonut> bitrcch
<Psychonut> bitcvh
<Psychonut> bitch
<air> FUCKING A IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Psychonut> cool
<Psychonut> what works/
<air> BRiX
<Psychonut> o - never heard of it
<air> brix?
<abi> i guess brix is an OS at http://www.qzx.com/brix or still not released yet or probably a lie or erotically stimulating to some
<air> i really hate it when those pricks play with the brix message
<Psychonut> What's the differnece between a cuculmber and a bus?
<air> uhh
-:- Syntax [dma@01-035.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes
<Psychonut> With the cucumber the little pricks are on the outside!!!
<air> haha
-:- canned [user3855@pm3-6-26.apex.net] has joined #Tunes
<Psychonut> hello
<Psychonut> Syntax: I'm in (again)
<Syntax> Psychonut: ok
-:- SignOff canned: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Psychonut> Do you want me to talk you?
<air> u guys know where a keymap is?
<Syntax> keyboard mapper?
<air> just the mappings
<air> for an american keyboard
<Syntax> no, sorry
<Psychonut> talk andy
<Psychonut> beep
<Syntax> Psychonut: I added a /etc/ppp/ip-up.d/1ddclient script to automagically submit my current IP when the IP connection is estabilished through ppp
<Psychonut> So did I.
<Psychonut> mine's a litt;e diff, but that's what I ddi
<Psychonut> Syntax: do you want to do that now, or later?
11:20pm
<Syntax> Psychonut: do what?
<Psychonut> Syntax: distributed-net
<Syntax> on gadget?
<Psychonut> Syntax: uh, yes
<Psychonut> Syntax: did you say i could do i on sproket?
<Syntax> Psychonut: yeah and gadget
<Psychonut> Syntax: you are real cool
<Syntax> I know <G>
11:30pm
<air> anyone got an ascii table handy?
<td> man ascii if on unix
<air> oh kewl
<air> thanks
<Psychonut> visit andy.dyndns.org
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1006
IRC log ended Wed Oct  6 00:00:00 1999