IRC log started Wed Oct 6 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1006 12:10am -:- Psychonut [andy@pm615-20.dialip.mich.net] has left #tunes [] -:- demoncrat [darius@shell.accesscom.com] has joined #tunes -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes hmm, I wonder where you buy linux rocks. are they safe for fish? heh 12:40am -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) first I've heard of linux rocks 01:10am -:- SignOff demoncrat: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Zhivago[th.merddin.com.au]) -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[01-035.006.popsite.net]) -:- Syntax [dma@09-027.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[09-027.006.popsite.net]) -:- Syntax [dma@09-027.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us135.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[09-027.006.popsite.net]) -:- Syntax [dma@05-052.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- ruiner [blah@ppp087.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes Linux rocks? bah! I'd say that its a useful tool for creating something better -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) 12:00pm -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System (http://www.tunes.org) !larne:*! (sorry for the wallop) Any services admins awake? !NickServ:*! irq used GETPASS on chimmy -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-271.ici.net] has joined #tunes morning all !irq:*! "ymkxh47" has been randomly messaging people "its FREE!" and other equivalent messages, he was on from .radius.teleline.es, no longer using the nick - if anyone sees him again, take apropriate actions !irq:*! it appears this particular individual has been doing this for many hours today, all from *.radius.teleline.es. I am recommending an AKILL, if you object, kindly /m irq . 12:50pm -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes hey smkl 01:00pm hello what's up? nothing much same here -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us304.javanet.com] has joined #tunes downloading the 2.2.12 kernel for Linux * Downix/#tunes is sick of this memory leak -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf 01:10pm -:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp195.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] The FDA says 5 servings of BitchX a day increases sexual potency) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp323.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- fire [no@209-68-229-174.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes hi -:- sucrenpou [qsdf@s150.paris-85.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- sucrenpou [qsdf@s150.paris-85.cybercable.fr] has left #Tunes [] ... -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp195.lvdi.net]) well im redesigning brix oh good for you im removing all hardware protection from the kernel heh like tunes :D 04:40pm ya :( -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[bespin.dhs.org]) im having problems with a fundamental flaw in my language idea what kinda problems and what kinda language? i need to figure out howto make mine extremely safe but still be fast and flexible like when the programmer types in the object name whether it pushes a pointer of that object onto the stack (like forth) or execute that object :/ you know lengua i know the name of it i meant what kinda language is it like if the programmer types in an object name how is it suppose to execute anything? u execute methods no no it isn't like that you see like i was talking with water everything is an object they are unified ya methods in brix are objects but u need a method object pair usually i just think things out for a while and then an elegant solution will come to me out of no where usually in the shower but not always :D man its only gonna take a couple hours to strip out all the kernel protection that took me months to put it -:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp195.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes 04:50pm eihrul: bad news man air: i hear ya brb 05:00pm back air: how can you trust that everything in your kernel will be safe? huh? if the kernel isn't safe then nothing can help u if the linux kernel or beos kernel or whatever was full of bugs then it would crash alot er i mean software in general well the language and kernel have to be bug free and the language has to make sure programs cant have bugs but what if some freak decides to write a program in COBOL he cant and run it on brix all code has to enter the system as source code and is compuled by the language oh 05:20pm i see -:- Mr_Ed [kvirc@ppp037217.usmo.com] has joined #Tunes it makes the language harder to write tho cuz u have to catch bugs at compile time. but that makes for higher quality software tho hello -:- Mr_Ed [kvirc@ppp037217.usmo.com] has left #Tunes [Bye] -:- Mr_Ed [kvirc@ppp037217.usmo.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Mr_Ed [kvirc@ppp037217.usmo.com] has left #Tunes [Bye] uh i do have a little bit of hardware protection tho i have a buffer around the stack so it can catch overflow/underflow most common bug around i have buffers at the end of every object so it can catch pointer overruns that dont jump the 4k gap i just need to make the language so that cant happen how does brix object/memory managment work? to prevent memory holes memory holes? like say an object is deleted and it leaves a hole ah each object gets its own page table and that table is added to an empty pgdir entry when u remove the object that entry is zero'd and read y for another object it only allows about 1015 objects tho so every object is 4k? i force all methods to be under 4k so they are mapped elsewhere no every object is limited to 4meg-4k that sucks but it does support streams so u can have objects larger ah hmmm i was thinking mabye if the programmer puts brackets or whatnot around an object then it pushes a pointer seems kinda kludgy though &objects :) yeah like that 05:30pm but it seems like the only way an idea will come to me 05:40pm -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Linus_ [andy@pm615-21.dialip.mich.net] has joined #tunes andy.dyndns.org 06:10pm -:- SignOff Linus_: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- Linus_ [andy@pm615-21.dialip.mich.net] has joined #tunes -:- grover [grover@huntcorp.cx] has joined #tunes hello, grover g'day -:- Linus_ is now known as IMA_POS why's that? >>> grover [grover@huntcorp.cx] requested VERSION from #Tunes beecause i;'m fuckes Do you like what version of crap I use? funny i didn't get a reply... * grover/#tunes shrugs -:- grover [grover@huntcorp.cx] has left #tunes [] 06:50pm -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes -:- IMA_POS is now known as im_a_pos possum, or point of sale? piece of shit oh, how negative self depreciating even wadda ya mean, it's very positive 07:00pm -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[05-052.006.popsite.net]) I dn't appreaciate you slamming my NICKQ!!!@#!@4' 07:10pm -:- im_a_pos is now known as Smelly_Bowels -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp195.lvdi.net]) -:- Smelly_Bowels is now known as Linus_ -:- SignOff Linus_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Linus_[pm615-21.dialip.mich.net]) -:- Syntax [dma@10-095.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- Linus_ [Andy@pm615-12.dialip.mich.net] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.138.105.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey hi ya talking to me? Hey to all :) That's what I *thought* 08:40pm Whats the Turing test? What? -:- Linus_ is now known as Smelly_Bowels I don't know thats why I am asking :) *Sure* Anyone else awake in here? nope -:- SignOff Smelly_Bowels: #TUNES (Leaving) lar1: did u read the log? No, I just parsed it... Is there somthing important I should check out? i hacked up brix again :) Oy vey! What did you break? i didnt break anything, i removed protection Uhhh How so? one single address space Why did you decide to do that? 08:50pm i still use paging and buffers around the stacks so i can catch stack overflow/underflow and i still use ring 0/3 so a user thread cant fill its stack, make a kernel call and laugh as it watches the kernel die i just need to add tons of checking to the language to remove all bugs before its compiled Hmmm Ok like tunes Ever try a Dvorak keyboard? no oh did u see that i got brix working last night? Nope Thats cool though it was running the scancode thru a keymap and printing them out and then i hacked it up :) it seemed too slow seemed too slow? Now... who might have said what you were doing for the keyboard was gonna be too slow? Certenly _not_ little old me :) noooo for one i was disabling paging QUITE OFTEN -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-46.ici.net] has joined #tunes morning all Uh huh... methinks that yer kb code was a late night caffine high hack hello Night (for me :) ) Downix Downix: and its only midnight there so how can u say morning? hehe 09:00pm lar1: this new kernel will be like 10 times faster amazing talking :) -:- td [x@1Cust32.tnt1.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes air: Switching to BsOS I see Downix: eh? air: You said 10 times faster, which is BeOS over MacOS anyday air: What did you do to make it 10x faster? I am switching to mv /dev/hda /dev/null OS! i no longer disable paging trade latency for speed :) which also means i dont have to do any conversions for address air: Why did you in the first place? addresses -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Read error to Syntax[10-095.006.popsite.net]: EOF from client) * Downix/#tunes likes AmigaOS, even if it is like riding an ICBM. and incredibly ugly :) Heh It's sure fast, but when it crashes, it goes BOOM! Zhivago: You've never used MUI w/ MagickWB I see I have a speedy solution without the booms :) Just don't crash it... down: I've seen various screenshots of amigas down: and they're all incredibly ugly Zhivago: here's mine. down: if you can find one which is not viscerally repulsive, I will congratulate you lar1: well i had a few structures hidden under other structures which i have undone now, i also needed to write to stacks of other threads which werent mapped. i have also fixed that problem. i could put those changes into the protected brix and it would be faster. man, DCC is slow tonight its going a long way, I suspect where are you? australia yup, long way lar1: but if i also remove all the parameter checking and let the language handle it then it will be TONS faster. and heck why not just let the language handle address space too and make it shitloads faster air: Ahh... too much hidden hidden over under head! :) air: you're sounding like me :) I need to go I am fscking tired hurrah for no kernel, hurrah for no processes, hurrah for no context switches :) Downix: send that here too * Downix/#tunes thinks Zhivago will be very suprized by his screenshot downix: Here as well Bah! I must go Later all -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) Zhivago: no i still have preemptive multithreading Zhivago: and a kernel air: oh well, the true way will eventually open to you :) uhh, no 09:10pm this is the "TRUE WAY"(TM) why do I get the feeling that this isn't an amiga screenshot...? i registered that and would like it if u wouldnt refer to anything other than brix with it Zhivago: it was made on my Amiga 1200 w/ AmigaOS on it... running X11 aha hahah I said Amiga, not Workbench (which is hopelessly obsolete) the only way the amiga can look better if by running the UI from another OS so its a screenshot of an X server :) Zhivago: Yup, on an Amiga 1200 s/if/is/ air: There are other UI's for Amiga's. Take pOS Stupid name, good UI Zhivago: AmigaOS is just the bootROM, it needs a UI on top of it. Normally people use Workbench, but you can use other UI's and still run Amiga software. Of course I'm running X stuff... * Downix/#tunes gryns anyways, we're not here to talk about Commodore's biggest blunder here Zhivago: whats a good clean language that has flexible pointers but is safe air: lisp :) no lisp is not good how about basic? 8) does basic have pointers? lisp is supurb, hideous unbeliever Zhivago: how fast can a total idiot learn lisp? a total idiot cannot learn lisp which is one of its major advantages see, its not good 09:20pm how would u print a null terminated string, manually? well, I probably wouldn't use an asciiz string in the first place unicode but if I had to I'd construct a primitive asciiz type unicode says nothing about null termination I have the spec at home i dont care what kinda string it is air: you specified null terminated air: make up your mind ya its whatever kind of null terminated string lets just say it has some defined value at the end in which case I would construct a primitive asciiz type how well, I'd write a constructor, and some accessors can u do it in under oh say 5-10 lines of code? well, um, this is the construction of a primitive after I have the primitive, then its a matter of saying (display mystring) or (princ mystring) depending on if you prefer scheme or CL style x=0; while(string[x]!='\0') printf("%c", string[x++]); my god that's hideous im talking about the code to do it what would that be like in lisp at least have the common decency to use putc() and do it efficiently it was example code for(p=s;*p;putchar(*p++)); 09:30pm (dotimes (i (length s)) \\ (display (elt i s))) however, since a string primitive would be a sequence... and since display knows how to talk to sequences... then (display s) would suffice what if there is no null in the string? it is not possible for there to be no null in a defined asciiz string this is an invarient Here's a trivia question, can someone name when the first Power CPU was produced? btw, that lisp code is UGLY air: (display s) is uglier than x=0; while(string[x]!='\0') printf("%c", string[x++]); well i wasnt really going after a string it was just an example air: the problem is in how you approach the problem :) how does lisp prevent invalid pointers what is an invalid pointer? a bug -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by clarke.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Interrupted system call -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from tolkien.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is tolkien.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from tolkien.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from tolkien.openprojects.net) -:- tolkien.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(2)] 0% -:- [global users on irc(202)] 43% -:- [invisible users on irc(265)] 57% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 3% -:- [total users on irc(467)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(34)] (avg. 13 users per server) -:- [total channels created(166)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !tolkien.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 17 (15 clients) !tolkien.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 2(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#Tunes:9)] [ TUNES ] [@Tril ] [ abi ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] [ air ] [ Zhivago ] [ Downix ] [ td ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.956 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES air: the important one being that references refer only and always to legal objects can u manually change them pointer=4*x-7 you can assign a reference to the value of another reference -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [09:39pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-46.ici.net]) -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- td [x@1Cust32.tnt1.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net] has joined #Tunes 09:40pm pointer+=1000 can u do any of that? the solution to this is to use either an iterator, or a vector which you place over the region you want to look at pointers themselves in the C sense are unnecessary, and a liability. could u write quake in lisp? yes, although I'm not aware of a system designed for that kind of task but since I'm writing one for approximately those conditions once written yes. -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-46.ici.net] has joined #tunes what the? down: what the which? so lisp can compile code that is as fast as C? faster sometimes with care since lisp tends to be much better at function calls, and global program analysis hehe its stil ugly as hell and since we're dealing with first class objects, we don't have to worry about hidden pointers to things air: its a lot nicer than C code, and I've done C for a good 13 years. 09:50pm -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by tolkien.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from asimov.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is asimov.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from asimov.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from asimov.openprojects.net) -:- asimov.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(5)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(209)] 44% -:- [invisible users on irc(264)] 56% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 3% -:- [total users on irc(473)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(34)] (avg. 13 users per server) -:- [total channels created(164)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !asimov.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 18 (15 clients) !asimov.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System (http://www.tunes.org) -:- topic set by hcf [Wed Oct 6 12:05:00 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:9)] [ TUNES ] [ Downix ] [ td ] [@Tril ] [ Zhivago ] [ air ] [ smkl ] [ Fare ] [ abi ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.931 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES eh? this is the fundament of lisp eh? lisp boils down to that form (function arg arg arg) that's the basis of it all if you can get simpler than that, I'm impressed how is that any different than C um, because C is hideosuly omplex in comparison _everything in lisp_ resolves to a function call are they functions or methods? methods are functions but methods are associated with an object so what? well, with a type usually 10:00pm object.method(args) that's just a matter of having parametric type selection (method arg arg arg) you're used to single-select methods not multi-methods how does that know which object to use it uses them all (defmethod foo ((a house) (b boat)) ...) in CL for example if I call (foo my-house my-boat) then it will execute that ... if u have a method that will display a window then u have to display all windows if u call it? hmm, no (foo my-house my-boat) operates on my-house and my-boat if it is functional window.show(x,y) how would u do that in lisp (show window x y) thats how C does it no, C doesn't specialise I'll use the somewhat ugly CL syntax for a clearer method er example go look at some gtk or xforms code I've seen them both, you are confused :) (defmethod foo ((a elephant) b) (explode)) now (foo my-house my-elephant) will not work, since there is no method specialsied that way fl_show_form(window, FL_PLACE_MOUSE, FL_FULLBORDER, "Bochs Frontend"); (foo my-elephant my-house) will work since there is a function that accepts elephants and anything else air: where is the specialisation? air: its not there. -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-46.ici.net] has left #tunes [] what happens here is that foo is like a multiple-body function now and we choose which body to execute depending on the types of the arguments which the fl_show_form() cannot do in C 10:10pm -:- Syntax [dma@10-070.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1007 IRC log ended Thu Oct 7 00:00:00 1999