IRC log started Wed Oct 27 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1027
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<person> hey everyone
12:20am
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<rares> hello
09:50am
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<Kaufmann> Shalom, kids
12:20pm
<Kaufmann> Can you believe this?!? I paid R$25 for a Genesis album, and only R$4 for a great recording of the Rach 3
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12:30pm
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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<lar1> Hey
03:20pm
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<lar1> Hey fire
<fire> hi
<fire> wow my thread has had quite a few responses
<lar1> Where is your thread /.?
<fire> on the tunes mailing list
<fire> it was about integers and floating points
<lar1> Ah
<fire> although my thread on comp.lang.forth has gone no where
<fire> like all the other posts
<hcf> fire: what was the subj?
<fire> "integers and floating points"
03:40pm
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
03:50pm
<Kaufmann> ... anyone?
<Kaufmann> BTW, Gödel is spelled with an umlaut, not with an oe
<fire> :P
<fire> Mr.Brazil!
-:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250101.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<fire> i reading PLATONISM, INTUITION
<fire> AND
<fire> THE NATURE OF MATHEMATICS
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<fire> hi pyro
<Kaufmann> "I reading" is also wrong
<pyro> greetings
<fire> ooops
<fire> oh uh
<fire> im elgato/hickserv btw pyro
<fire> nick change
<pyro> I figured :)
<pyro> how about fuerio or fuega?
<fire> :D
-:- Kaufmann is now known as earth
<earth> there, now we have all four elements
<earth> of course, not all at the same time :)
<fire> no porque Brian no es agua 
<pyro> who's air?
<abi> air is _QZ/liar
<pyro> haha
-:- pyro is now known as ether
!NickServ:*! irq used GETPASS on needo
<fire> It would be good if earth were someone who constantly sticks to his or her own opinion
<earth> Yes, Brian /is/ water (afaik)
<earth> fire, what do you mean by that?......
<fire> hence the eastern philosophy
<ether> Brian should be fire since he's always flaming people ;) ;)
<fire> water flows in the direction life takes him
<ether> hehe
<fire> lol
<fire> i forgot what i am supposed to do
<fire> i just happen to like fire
<fire> air just floats around not affecting anyone
<fire> :)
<earth> aaaaaaah
<fire> wait a minute
<fire> pyro: play with me
<fire> :)
<fire> get it!?
<earth> but the 4 elts. nonsense is of Greek origin
<fire> well true, if you wanted to be authentic you would have 5 elements
<ether> anyway, I just sat down to work on the forth os
<fire> cause Brians nick is taoist in origin
<earth> ether, FORTH OS?
<fire> retro!
<ether> yeah, that's what retro is becoming
<earth> fire, oic... well, for a Taoist he doesn't seem very balanced
<fire> the fifth element should be void
* fire/#tunes gets his old books out
<ether> the Chinese have five elements too
04:00pm
<ether> I think it's air, water, earth, wood, and metal...
<fire> yes
<earth> fire, the "indicator of the spiritual emptiness underlying everything"?
<earth> :)
<fire> taoism is from china
<earth> sorry, some C humour there
<ether> those 4 greek elements could represent the 4 phases of matter.. solid, liquid, gas, plasma
<fire> ether: well there are 5
<ether> are those greek or hindu?
<fire> there is like super cooled something
<ether> bose-einstein condensate?
<fire> something like that
<earth> hmmmm, Bose-Einstein condensate
<fire> ether: no i think the chinease had fire instead of air
<fire> the fire makes the metal that cuts the trees which let the water erode the earth
<fire> that is the yin cycle
<earth> I see no cycle
<fire> i forgot what happens after that ;)
<fire> anyways
<fire> pyro: got multitasking back yet?
-:- ether is now known as pyro
<pyro> no I'm working on the assembler
<fire> blarg
<fire> hey i did some good for hackerdom
<pyro> dammit, I wanna mix assembler with forth.. and ditch NASM too
<fire> i guy on my cross country team wanted to learn to program so i told him to learn asm
<fire> s/a/i
<fire> aren't you proud of me ;)
<pyro> he might just say "this sucks"
<pyro> "I guess I don't wanna program after all"
<pyro> heheh
<fire> heh i told him it'll take some discipline
<pyro> Seriously, asm is a good place to start
<fire> yes it is
<fire> i wish i started with asm
<pyro> better yet, start with non-Intel asm
<pyro> the 6800 and 68000 series are nice
<fire> ah yes
<fire> RISC asm!
<fire> 6502 asm mabye
<pyro> yeah
<pyro> find an old apple
<fire> probably the easiest asm to learn
<pyro> 6811's are pretty common
<fire> doesn't the 6502 have a stack?
<pyro> yeah
<pyro> the 6809 has dual stacks.. nice for forth
<pyro> so does the 6811F
<fire> indeed
<fire> heh better yet...F21
04:10pm
<pyro> 68k.. effectively has 9 stacks
<earth> blah, use a real stack computer
<fire> hence the F21 earth
<pyro> you can build one in 20-30 chips
<earth> sorry, didn't see it
-:- earth is now known as Kaufmann
<Kaufmann> there, now I'm not confused anymore
<fire> :)
<fire> FORTH is nice...i am passed my low level stage though
<fire> now im interested in higher level languages
<Kaufmann> while (map { pack 'C', $_ } reverse split '', 'segaugnal level rehgih ni detseretni mi won') { print unpack 'C', $_; }
<Kaufmann> *grin*
<pyro> did you figure out CREATE ... DOES> yet?
<pyro> Kaufmann: perl?
<abi> well, perl is compiled
<Kaufmann> pyro, yeah
<Kaufmann> abi, perl is also interpreted, depending on your point of view
<abi> okay, Kaufmann.
<pyro> I gotta learn perl for work.. it beats VB any day
<pyro> I've got some web-based databases coming up
<Kaufmann> You can always pay me to do the dirty work
04:20pm
<pyro> that's what Zope and PHP3 do...?
<pyro> abi, zope?
<abi> zope is at http://www.zope.org
<Kaufmann> pyro, yeeeeeees... but Perl is much more flexible
<pyro> abi, php3?
<abi> it has been said that php3 is code
<Kaufmann> Perl is only a problem because of the overhead involved... of the three solutions, PHP is the lightest one
<fire> perl *puke*
<pyro> it's less overhead than VB
<pyro> and it doesn't tie you to M$
<Kaufmann> pyro, oh, definitely
<fire> i wish i had a lin modem...
<Kaufmann> VB + Web = Yuck
<fire> error: lside
<Kaufmann> in fact, Vx | VB + x = Yuck
<pyro> haha
<pyro> so have any of you looked into Udanax yet?
<Kaufmann> (BTW, V should stand for the upside-down A (for-all))
<Kaufmann> pyro, no
<Kaufmann> abi, udanax?
<abi> no idea, kaufmann
<Kaufmann> aaaairgh
<pyro> udanax.com
<pyro> xanadu?
<Kaufmann> ah
<fire> ah...quanitfied logic
<fire> i was wondering what the hell you were talking about
<fire> i just hear a lot on the mlist about udanax
<fire> haven't checked it out yet
<pyro> I need to download it and see if any of the cool ideas have been implemented
04:30pm
<pyro> like immunity against censorship, fully decentralized control...
<pyro> no DNS/Internic crap
<fire> hmmm...i ought to be doing my geometry homework
<pyro> jesus christ.. I went to download 1 sourcecode file from udanax, and it's 2 megs!
<fire> what exactly is it?
<Kaufmann> pyro, that good or bad?
<Kaufmann> or just surreal? :)
04:40pm
<fire> brb (0xf00d)
<pyro> ox food?
<pyro> definitely surreal
<Kaufmann> 0xDEADBEEF
<Kaufmann> 0xDEADBEEF != 0xF00D
<eihrul> == 0xBADBEEF
<Kaufmann> :)
<pyro> $BEEF
<eihrul> 0xBEEFC0DE
<Kaufmann> okie, okie, we've all shown to be rather adept at hex humour, but that's enough :)
<eihrul> there's still lots of other good words though
<eihrul> cafe, babe, fab, bead, deaf, etc
04:50pm
<pyro> cat - the other other white meat
<eihrul> deed, face, ace, dab, feed, etc
<Kaufmann> use Set;  sub variations { print join("", map { &variations diff @_, $_ } @_), "\n"; };  variations qw/0 A B C D E F/;
<Kaufmann> there, now play with it
<Kaufmann> it's amazing what you can do with set operators and recursiveness
<Kaufmann> in case anyone cares,
<Kaufmann> sub diff { return grep { $_ != $_[-1] } @_; }
<Kaufmann> hmmm, pretty, unreadable Perl code
<pyro> yeah, if you can handle perl, forth is a piece of cake
<Kaufmann> bah, perl is easy once you get it
<pyro> it's not very consistent
<fire> i fyou can handle going to the bathroom forth is a piece of cake
05:00pm
<Kaufmann> LOL fire
<Kaufmann> pyro, it's supposed to be organic, not consistent
<fire> i strongly dislike perl now
<Kaufmann> the only thing I know that is both is feces
<fire> is feces?
<fire> are Mr. Brazil!
<Kaufmann> fire, it's a composite period
<Kaufmann> the only thing / I know / that is both / is feces
<Kaufmann> It means, "I only know one thing that is both consistent and organic, and that thing is feces"
<Kaufmann> See?
<fire> oh oh oh
<fire> you need a ,
<Kaufmann> where?
<fire> the only thing I know that is both, is feces
<Kaufmann> BTW, appreciate more of Perl power
<Kaufmann> sub in { return grep { $_ == $_[1] } @{$_[0]}; };  sub d { return grep { !(&in $_[1], $_) } @{$_[0]}
05:10pm
* fire/#tunes BARF
<Kaufmann> fire, the comma is optional
<fire> yeah well if you ever expect to write anything in english, use the ,
<Kaufmann> since it's a restrictive adjective subordinate sentence
<fire> D:
<fire> wtf 
<fire> how do you know this?
<Kaufmann> because semantics are the same everywhere, mein freund
<Kaufmann> ;)
<fire> ME AM BRAZIL
<fire> YOU AM UKRAINE?
<Kaufmann> LOL
<Kaufmann> are you on drugs, dude?
<fire> some people i know invented their own dialect of english
<Kaufmann> AOL suddenly comes to mind
<fire> all linking verbs and prepositions are replaced with "am"
<fire> oh and the word "I" is never used
<fire> me am like lisp and forth :D
<Kaufmann> heh
-:- lar1 [lar1@sdn-ar-003casfrMP167.dialsprint.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
<fire> (me (am like lisp))
<Kaufmann> $me->{am}->like->($lisp);
<Kaufmann> :)
* lar1/#tunes likes debian!
05:20pm
* Kaufmann/#tunes likes no UNIX
<lar1> Sorry, but the recent installation of it here has gotten me excited ;)
<fire> (is Kaufmann (whore perl))
<lar1> I just wish I could download 110Mb faster! :)
<Kaufmann> (remove! fire)
<lar1> Hmm, I cant tell if this song is saying theres no sex in violence or no sense in violence...
<Kaufmann> LOL
<fire> find my asshole brother
<fire> :D
<lar1> Hmm, on a second hearing I am pretty sure there is no sex in violence
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<lar1> I want to know the name of the song now :)
<Kaufmann> Y'know, it's like I'm asking for this... wherever I go, there's somebody wanting to pay me to do CGI stuff
<lar1> brb
-:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB
05:30pm
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<mike> hi
<mike> rock n  roll
<Kaufmann> roll n' rock
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<Kaufmann> hrrm
<Kaufmann> wonder if I scared him off or what
<lar1> Probly :)
<lar1> Ohh! You know what we discussed in math today?  MATRICIES!  Can you belive it??
<lar1> That class is so boring
<lar1> I hate it
<Kaufmann> Whee!
<Kaufmann> Matrices are fun
<fire> metrices
<Kaufmann> MMIX's built-in instructions for dealing with bit-matrices are great
<fire> oh boy
<fire> well it's homework time
<fire> we were doing parelleligrams in math
<lar1> I love math... I really do... but I fall assleep in that class
05:40pm
<lar1> Oh, boy, I feel quite sorry for you fire :)
<fire> ass leep?
<Kaufmann> but it's almost impossible to work with explicitly with matrices in text-based programming :(
<fire> nah geometry is easy
<lar1> fire:  Don't you find it boring?
<fire> adios amigos!
<Kaufmann> hell, just think of them as arrays of arrays
<fire> nah i have a high grade in that class
<Kaufmann> bonsoir, mein freund
<fire> better than what i had in algebra
<fire> bye bye Mr. Brazil!
<lar1> Kaufmann:  Yes, matricies are _easy_ that is what I was saying
<lar1> fire:  Uh, ok
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (:D)
<lar1> later fire
<lar1> Speaking of homework
<lar1> I think I will "do work" was well
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[sdn-ar-003casfrMP167.dialsprint.net])
<Kaufmann> I gotta leave now
<Kaufmann> Peace
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (FOO! "Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber)
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05:50pm
<pyro> lar, been to #osdev?
06:00pm
<lar1> pyro:  Not today
<lar1> pyro: is somthing going on?
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<water> hello
<water> today seems like a good day to update tunes on the arrow situation
<water> most notably the specs achieved and the spec yet-to-be-realized
<pyro> lar1: no, just thought you'd like it if you hadn't heard of it yet
<pyro> but anyway..
06:10pm
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<rares> hey
<lar1> hey
<water> lo
* lar1/#tunes wishes dselect would tell him how much of the update has been downloaded
<rares> sup water
<rares> listen water
<rares> if you could look at arrow as a technique and give examnples of it in that context people would see what you're tryin to do
<rares> then you can talk about graphs
<water> hmm
<water> can _you_ see arrow as a technique?
<rares> yes
<water> how so? (not disagreeing at all)
06:20pm
<pyro> yeah, examples are needed
<water> i know, but i don't have a computer system to work with very often right now
<rares> like the work i'm doing on the migration kit
<rares> i'm starting with Linuces
<rares> then i generalize further to frenices
<rares> then unices
<rares> then OSes
<lar1> what are frenices?
<pyro> free
<rares> freenices
<water> *bsd's
<lar1> How do Linuces, frenices and unices differ?  I always thought they were pretty much the same?
<pyro> freebsd shares some code with linux.. it's tighter though
<rares> bsd and linux are not the same source
<rares> but they do exchange some time
<rares> s
<water> rares: what about your migration work?
<rares> Linuces have initscript and etc directory quirks
<pyro> and there are so damn many linuxes
<lar1> So, they are are quite similar, just some small differences
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<pyro> I think the BSD filesystem is better
<rares> freenices have a different kernel and they do partitioning differently also initialization (also Linuces have a rift in the package management and libc's they use
<rares> Unices are well anything but the same
<rares> maybe the commands match
* eihrul/#tunes for some reason keeps reading Linooses instead of Linuces.
-:- fire has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: #osdev
<rares> hehe
<water> thanks, fire
<eihrul> fire fire!
<fire> D:
<fire> hi
<rares> and OSes i'm not going to compare OS/2 Windows MacOS or Unix that's the last step in becoming highlky arrowed
<water> "highly-arrowed"?
<fire> perhaps all math should be done as rational numbers
<rares> the whole thing about arrow is model building in such away that successive definitions of a model cover more ground and yet still stay "crisp"
<pyro> so arrows are basically bidirectional hyperliks?
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<water> pyro: not just that, but that applies
<fire> (doubly linked lists)
<lar1> Hey hcf
<eihrul> fire: you still have a problem....
<hcf> hey lar1
<water> cons cells
<rares> i think arrow will have to be taught as a skill before we know how to tell machines what to do
06:30pm
<fire> ?
<water> well, not everyone will have to deal with arrow to use it
<eihrul> fire: hardware still only supports limited 'precision' integers
<pyro> maybe the arrow concept could be used for programming non-sequential computers
<fire> integer math is no problem
<fire> while floating point math is
<rares> no they won't but the developers better know how to abstract well and clearly
<fire> just allocate larger memory spaces for integers
<rares> i have a feeling we'll be using something a kin to graphical filters
<fire> or two for one rather
<rares> for logical constructs
<water> rares: yes, ture
<water> true
<rares> besides i also have a feeling that if you ever wanted to give a machine the sense of touch graphical filter like processing units are the wayy to go
<water> what do you mean by "graphical filters"?
<rares> GOFAI can't compete with intelligent design
<rares> like in GIMP and Photoshop and other products
<water> oh
<rares> it just takes a bit of imagination
<water> which i don't have, i guess :)
<rares> sort of like what they're finding out in nano computing
<water> sorry, i don't get thte relevance to arrow
<rares> they need better nanos to make mediocre ones
<water> heh
<rares> humans need to be ten steps ahead of the machine they're building
<rares> bu once the concept is well defined the machines can go on autopilot
<water> hmm
<rares> anyway that's my conception of arrow
<lar1> Hmm, need food,  brb
-:- lar1 is now known as lar1_eati
<rares> the fact is it's easier to build something that uses arrow's principle than to build sarrow
06:40pm
<water> yeah, i've thought the same things
<rares> like easier to play in your favorite MUD than to build one
<water> heh
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<rares> though i'm inspired by the works of Andy Goldsworthy to create one of my own or build one
<water> well, i'm working out the basic programming constructs that are needed to support arrow, but some of the issues are still incomplete
<rares> with someone 
<water> oh
<rares> ever seen Goldsworthy's photos
<water> never heard of him
<rares> he does photos the way Andrew Wyteth does paintings just that his are conceptually and structurally hilarious
<water> ooh
<rares> where Wyeth's are just stunning
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<rares> i have just witneessed the phrase database interrogation SQL for Sppoking?
<rares> spooking ven
<rares> ven = even
06:50pm
<air> i just got my compiler book
<eihrul> which one?
<air> modern compiler implementation in C
<rares> anyhow i've got to get back to a draft/report/guide/filing
<rares> cyall
<water> k
<fire> bye
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<fire> water: what does cardinality mean?
<air> even thought i havent read the book yet i recommend u all go buy it
<air> :)
<water> fire: the size of a quantity with respect to the number of natural numbers
07:00pm
<fire> what wuld this mean:
<fire> does there exist a set of points with cardinality greater than the cardinality of natural numbers (the so called countable cardinality) and less than the cardinality of the continuum (i.e. of the set of all points of a line)?
<water> heh
<fire> :)
<water> seems like i've seen that question somewhere before :)
<water> read a math faq
<fire> oh thanks
<fire> :/
<water> or a dictionary or whatever... it should explain the infinities to you
<fire> i looked in the dictionary
<water> don't worry, it's not hard
<water> *the* dictionary?
<fire> grrr
<water> not *the* dictionary, an online one on math concepts
<fire> i just want to know what it asks
<water> k, i'll explain
<fire> :)
<water> basically, there are larger numbers than the number of counting numbers, and the aleph series is just a systematic way of generating a sequence of infinities that are provably orderable
<water> e.g. the number of subsets of the natural numbers is formally greater than the number of natural numbers
<water> however, i don't remember the 'algorithm' for the alephs off the top of my head
<fire> i see
<fire> okey dokey
<fire> off i go
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
07:10pm
<water> whew. i just got done reviewing 70 emails
<water> i hate standing shipboard duty
<eihrul> what exactly is that?
<water> i stand watch over the reactor equipment and do intense work for 24 hours
<water> every four days
<eihrul> ack, no sleep?
<water> and i still put in a 40-hour work week
<water> we usually get 4 hours for sleep
<water> on the ship
<eihrul> wouldn't mcdonalds be easier at this point?
<water> heh
<eihrul> it'd pay about the same
<water> well, i do get about $24k per year and i'll have $32k for college extra when i get out
<water> and i've managed to save $24k so far
<eihrul> can't consult or something more profitable?
<water> yeah, in fact i did that until i dropped out of college
<eihrul> why stop?
<water> put simply, i'm too wierd
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<water> military types can't tell the difference
07:20pm
<eihrul> when are you planning to set up the arrow site?
<water> when i have the "vm" ready
<water> and when i have someone to help
* water/#tunes celebrates the six-year anniversary of the one-person arrow development team.
<eihrul> you've never been too clear what you needed help with :)
<eihrul> er rather about
<water> writing user-friendly docs, for one
<water> maintaining the site (artwork, structure, etc)
<water> and developing the environment
<water> but the nothing counts until the vm is done
<eihrul> (1) would atleast help other people to help
<eihrul> which would probably need to come before (3)
<air> while yer writing vm's could u write one for me?
<water> air: well, make a language spec
<water> air: a relatively abstract one
<air> got one
<water> dcc it
<air> ok let me type it up in english
<water> huh?
<water> what language is it in?
<air> well if u saw it u wouldnt understand jack
<water> explain
<air> i just write crap that i can understand
<water> er.. sure
* water/#tunes waits for air's spec
<air> i could probably just type it here in a couple lines
<water> anyway, tonight i'll write up my results so far for the vm spec, and respond to mlist traffic
<air> oh do u want the bytecode or the language syntax?
<water> hmm
<water> probably both
<air> not that there is any difference
<water> well, you might want to overload the syntax later
<air> overload?
07:30pm
<water> yeah, like defining '+' for different datat types
<air> uhh, no
<water> just send me the spec
<Zhivago> re
<water> what kind of implementation do you need?
<water> hi zhiv
<water> air: what math do you want it to do?
07:40pm
<water> how would constants be declared?
<water> what's the execution model of the vm?
<water> is it message-based or procedural?
<water> sorry, these seem like important questions to me
<air> C math, i shouldnt u how to make constants
<air> s/shouldnt/showed/
<water> ah. i see
<air> when calling a method its procedural, when using exec it forks a thread
<water> hmm
<water> this would be really easy to write in p-code, then
<air> exec calls the kernels fork function
<water> er... except for forking
<water> wait a sec... this is a c-a-like
<water> why not just use a compiler-compiler system?
<air> eh?
<water> never heard of yacc?
<water> this would be easy to do if you used that
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<air> used it for what?
<water> or just write a translation to c
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<water> to write your compiler
<air> uhh
<water> yeah, i know its a vm
<Zhivago> hmm, what are you trying to do?
<water> i just don't see why you need this to be a bytecode vm
<air> Zhivago: write a vm and compiler
<Zhivago> air: to what end?
<air> water: all brix source is compiled into bytecode and tested as bytecode. when u download the bytecode brix will compile it into native machine language
<Zhivago> hmm, but what if I hand turn byte-code which is naughty?
07:50pm
<Zhivago> does this bypass your security layer?
<water> air: looked at oberon? it just uses abstract syntax trees?
<air> no
<water> s/trees?/trees.
<air> Zhivago: the compiler has to run tests on the bytecode before it can be integrated
<water> air: oberon does the same as you suggest, but has a slightly different syntax and is also its own os
<Zhivago> air: ok, although program verification is a very complex process
<water> the oberon idea of using parse trees does make verification simpler
<air> Zhivago: plus i will maintain a master site that runs lots of debug tests on code and the code cant be downloaded unless it passes
<Zhivago> well, the thing is, what does verification mean?
<eihrul> water: where can i find papers?
<Zhivago> air: hmm, which will make other people's code hard to develop
<water> abi oberon?
<abi> oberon is, like, a language that is meant to extend Modula and Pascal. It was developed by Niklaus Wirth and others. or at http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/
<air> and brix can automatically download code that is needed by code that u manually download
<water> the juice sub-project has papers
<air> water: i know what oberon is, i have it on this machine
<Zhivago> the main problem with verification is conservatism
<air> mening what?
* water/#tunes concentrates on writing to the tunes mlist
<eihrul> water: doesn't seem to be any information on the syntax trees
<water> it's at the juice homepages
<water> abi juice?
<abi> no idea, water
<water> bleh
<water> abi Juice is at http://caesar.ics.uci.edu/juice/intro.html
08:00pm
* eihrul/#tunes wonders how many of abi's factoids are contributed by water.
<water> heh
<water> hcf comes up with the most
<eihrul> how do you check how many factoids abi has?
<water> abi: stats?
<abi> Since Thu Oct  7 15:32:49 1999, there have been 878 modifications and 303 questions.  I have been awake for 20 days, 4 hours, 33 minutes, 8 seconds this session, and currently reference 2257 factoids.
<water> most of those factoids are noise
<water> i try to prune abi's db whenever i can
<eihrul> so only 1,000 or so cumulative factoid since abi's been alive?
<eihrul> +s
<water> hcf has direct access, though
<water> most likely
<eihrul> that seems fairly small
<eihrul> for a few years
<water> well, a lot has been removed by hcf as it goes out-of-date
<water> he found a lot of factoids a few months ago that were almost never accessed, so he pruned em
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<water> i think it used to be about 10k
<eihrul> 9000 projects just died on a whim? :)
<air> i dont think it should be pruned at all
<water> heh
<water> hey hcf
<hcf> yeah?
<water> nice puppet-work
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<hcf> 1999.0831:<hcf> water: i cleaned out abi today, went from 5670 to 473 factoids
08:10pm
<water> heh
<air> so in 2 months abi has learned 2000 factoids
<hcf> i occasionally remove a bunch
<air> ya i know
<air> u shouldnt
<water> why not?
<air> u should remove forget
<water> why?
<air> its amusing when abi says something that makes no sense
<water> no thanks
<hcf> if anyone cares, abi's search func syntax is: (scan|search) [for] [<maxhit#>] <perl-regex>
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<hcf> oops
<water> thanks hcf, it's a good tool for pruning
<hcf> syntax: (scan|search) for [<maxhit#>] <perl-regex>
08:20pm
<hcf> water: as u may see, default maxhit = 5
<water> yes
<hcf> water: i put up a new brain dump in ~/html/abi/db/ if u feel like doing some heavy pruning ;)
<water> hm
<lar1_eati> Oy!  Hcf, did you clean any larnote factiods?
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<hcf> lar1: dont think so
<lar1> Ok, good :)  I have a bad habbit of storing stuff under the name larnote and forgetting about it
<hcf> lar1: u can use memoserv too
<air> lar1: i released another version of bfe last night
08:30pm
<lar1> air:  Cool!  I'll go get it
<lar1> hcf:  Whats that?
<hcf> lar1: /msg memoserv help
<lar1> Thanks hcf
<lar1> Yes?
<water> hcf: pruning
<lar1> Sorry, wrong window
<lar1> How do you send to a dcc chat session in ircii?
<lar1> (ie, after you have established the connection...)
<lar1> Be back just a sec
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<water> hello kor
<kor> hi
<water> hcf: btw, i'm only pruning entries that are unlikely to ever be accessed
<hcf> water: no prob
08:40pm
<water> damn it picks up lots of things that i'd never guessed it would recognize
<water> hcf: is there a way to limit the length of the 'key' recognized?
<hcf> water: yes
<water> hmm
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* water/#tunes tries to think of a good number
<water> hi td
<td> hey water
<water> how about 17, hcf?
<hcf> current iz 30
08:50pm
<water> i haven't found a good key longer than 15
<hcf> as i recall
<hcf> the long max length
<hcf> was chosen back when
<hcf> ppl wanted to put the glos' terms in
<hcf> s/terms/terms and phrases/
<water> oh
<water> but it never happened
<water> hmm
<water> a lot of them are there
<hcf> didnt happen, like most everything else tunes
<water> eek. i just got 9 msg's from the squeak list and 3 from tunes in a half-hour
<water> at least bill tanksley responds to me
09:00pm
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<water> heh. i've run into several "X's head is hurting." statements that i recognize as causing :)
<hcf> heh
<hcf> water: still want a 17char key limit?
<water> for now, sure
<water> actually...
<water> what would be better _is to limit the number of space characters in the key
<hcf> uhm, to hard to do atm
<water> hm
<water> then the char limit will do
<water> unless you had a shell script do it nightly
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<water> which could be done much later on
09:10pm
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<lar1> Hey
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<water> Hey
<water> :)
<lar1> :)
<hcf> water: using a channel instead of dcc, to make it easier for him :)
<lar1> I am in 2 channels!  Hcf told me how to fix ircii!
<water> ah
<lar1> water:  I couldn't figure out how to respond in the dcc chat after establishing the connection
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<water> wb
<fire> thanks
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* fire/#tunes just looked at the logs...introductory texts on arrow would be nice
09:20pm
<fire> it's like i see the arrow paper and i know it's so rich in ideas...i just need to get the ideas out of the arrow paper itself
<air> i think i will go with a simple logo way of handling math and then change to the much harder normal way later
<lar1> Yes, I aggree fire
<lar1> air use that forth way!  The 1 1 + thing
<air> maybe add modes to the language so u can program in either mode
<air> lar1: logo is + 1 1
<air> or sum 1 1
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<lar1> air:  Oh :)
<air> logo is just like lisp cept it dont have those gay () around everything
<fire> don't worry too much about syntax
<fire> air: they aren't gay...they're just different
<air> they require more typing
<air> and make the code harder to read
<fire> not if it is done right
<air> brix will colorize the code as u type it so u can see what goes with what
<water> i have to agree with air
<water> although i would like syntax cells to be graphical if possible
<air> YES!!! water agrees with me on soemthing :)
<lar1> Isn't logo pretty useless?
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<water> i.e. symbols that can be dragged around the screen
<fire> i don't really give a damn about syntax
<air> lar1: uhh, no
* lar1/#tunes almost passed out when he saw water aggree with air
<fire> :D
<water> air: heh
<air> water: i will have that too
<fire> air: you sound like you didn't put much thought into your language (not to assume too much)
<air> water: but there is no damn way i will ever code in a gfx language so i need my text
<fire> it was like "i need a language" and then a few days later you have one
<air> fire: im damn good :)
<fire> :D
<water> air: just as long as you allow a visual front end, i don't care
<air> fire: i have been planning the language almost as long as the os
<lar1> No, I am not sure I am subscribed
<lar1> sorry, wrong room
<lar1> brb
<fire> lar1: hcf kicked me from your channel :D
09:30pm
<air> anyone wanna try and strip down nasm for me?
<fire> oh i do i do!!!
<air> rip out its preprocessor, make it only output flat binary, and use brix kernel calls instead of un*x
<air> then i could just compile my bytecode to asm and run it thru nasm
<water> heh. a real code-generator
<air> oh and u can rip out the useless instructions too
<air> any instruction that u wouldnt find in optimized code
* eihrul/#tunes ponders who is actually going to do all that.
<air> and it wont need to output any messages cuz the code i give it will be perfect
<air> eihrul: u?
<eihrul> not a chance in hell man :)
<air> i would also like it to be under 4k
<fire> heh
<water> uh
<air> eihrul: it would look good on yer resume
<water> air: maybe you should just go for a tiny language
<air> water: eh?
<fire> have a strongly typed purely functional language
<air> fire: i do
<fire> it would seem to fit brix's image
<water> air: their's a home page for language interpreters and compilers whose binaries are 20k or less... some are <1k
<water> s/their/there
<eihrul> air: umm, what do i need a resume for?
<water> it's where i found the analogue of tml
<air> eihrul: er college application
<eihrul> and why does mutilating an already horridly written program look good?
<fire> ari: will it be dynamically typed?
<eihrul> i've written more than enough programs to bloat a resume with
<hcf> water: whats this?
<eihrul> i don't need to write a hack for you :)
<water> hcf: the tiny languages homepage?
<air> eihrul: shrinking the 440k nasm binary to 4k would look quite impressive
<hcf> water: http://www.cs.rit.edu/~atk/Semantics/Languages.html ?
* eihrul/#tunes yawns.
<eihrul> the C runtime takes up more space than that 
<eihrul> the instruction tables take up more space than that
<water> hcf: nope
<water> darned if i can remember where i found it
09:40pm
<hcf> water: any other clues?
<water> i had the url on my laptop, but ...
<water> hmm
<eihrul> air: it'd be easier to write your own 4k assembler than stripping 436k of bloat
<air> eihrul: u can put the tables in an object
<water> look up the programming language F
<water> or False
<air> eihrul: could u write me an assembler then?
<fire> er
<air> eihrul: it would be nice if it could read p2 instructions, kni/3dnow and be able to handle other instruction sets like nasm does
<fire> air: is your language dynamically typed?
<eihrul> i could, but i most likely won't
<eihrul> i'd rather spend the effort porting squeak :)
<water> heh
<air> fire: its object oriented
<fire> uhhh...that defeats the meaning of purely functional dude
<air> its purely functional object oriented
<air> :)
<fire> :P
<fire> dumb
<water> not so
<air> see water agrees with me again :)
<fire> something should either be strongly typed purely functional or weakly typed truely object oriented
<fire> :)
<air> twice in one day, im i about to be struck by lightening?
<water> hcf: or Bla
<air> s/im/am/
<water> hcf: darn it, i can't find it
<air> fire: i have redefined OO 
<air> so its a functional language with OO typing
<water> heh
<fire> well at least it would then be homoiconic
<fire> sorta
<air> no my language doesnt relate to any words with 'homo' in them
<water> the weird thing is thinking of functions as objects with slots
<hcf> water: the likelihood _is that i'v already seen it ;)
<fire> slots?
<lar1> Heheh air
09:50pm
<air> ya slots
<fire> ?
<air> can someone answer a question for me?
<fire> gee sure, shoot ;)
<water> hcf: here's a page close to it: http://dsse.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~wvo96r/proglang/index.html
<air> if i set a breakpoint at point A in brix i get a gpf, but if i set the breakpoint at point B it works fine. point B is past point A
<hcf> water: yup, seen that
<lar1> hcf:  Do you remember every URL you go to?
<water> i think there's one with languages from multiple authors
<hcf> lar1: hints of em stick in my head
<lar1> hcf:  Heh :)
<air> any ideas?
<air> oops forget that i even asked that
<water> whoa. i just found a Plankalkul page with the original doc converted to html!!!
<hcf> water: where? (tho i think i'v seen it)
<water> http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/retro/
<water> i'll give it to abi
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<hcf> water: yep, iv known of the retro mus. page for years, where u been? ;)
<water> heh
<hcf> its not changed for years either :(
<water> i've seen it before
<hcf> ok, good
<hcf> i was worried
<water> i just never noticed that it had the actual plankalkul paper
10:00pm
<hcf> neither had i
<lar1> What is plankalkul?
<water> the original hll developed before computers had compilers or even assemblers
<hcf> lar1: http://nightflight.com/cgi-bin/foldoc.cgi?Plankalk%fcl
<lar1> Is it still useful??
<eihrul> sheesh, he made a lot of languages
* lar1/#tunes thinks that there are too many languages... they can't _all_ be _that_ good... can they?
<water> no they aren't
<hcf> lar1: too many? 2000+ listed @ http://cuiwww.unige.ch/langlist
<lar1> I know!  I need to create one!
<lar1> I'll call it Lartunishwaterinspiredhcfhelpedeihrulhelpedtooandmanyothersintunes :)
<water> heh
* lar1/#tunes wonders how the name Plankalkul was arrived at
<water> the plan calculus
<lar1> Ah, that make sense
<lar1> I am gonna dive in to the arrow paper
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<lar1> (or at least skim it in preperation for more indepth reading later)
<fire> im reading a paper right now on platonism
<fire> but it's getting late and i need to get to bed
<water> fire: is it agt?
<fire> i will read the other parts tommorrow
<fire> agt?
<abi> agt is Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/
<fire> yes
<fire> good paper
<water> cool
<lar1> Platonism?  Sounds greek.. like Plato
<fire> it is
10:10pm
<fire> mabye it'll help me understand arrow better
<lar1> Ah
<lar1> Its some kind of religious paper?
<fire> lar1 and I are hacking our way toward enlightenment :D
<fire> no
<fire> it's about math
<lar1> Heh
<fire> bye all
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<lar1> Ok, math, religion... there is so... nevermind :)
<lar1> I hate formality
<lar1> HOLY CRAP!  The arrow paper is 118 pages?!?
<water> heh
<water> yeah, there'll have to be a book someday
<water> to cover all the topics
<lar1> I was expecting a 5 page little paper
<water> well, it's not really an intro yet
<lar1> I will be the first to buy the book provided the cost is  < 100000000000000 USD
<water> eventually, it'll become several research papers on various orthogonal subjects
<water> and the *real* intro will be written over those
<water> heh. it'll be cheap
<water> probably electronically-free, like the Be Book
<lar1> Espero que si.  No tengo mucho dinero.
<lar1> Por libros
<water> i see
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<air> that SUCKED
<water> wb
<lar1> Por que I don't want to pay 1000 for a book and I don't think it is worth that much
<lar1> (No offense intended to any authors)
10:20pm
<lar1> air: Comprendes espanol?
<air> i walked over to get a floppy and when i came back i couldnt move the mouse but i could switch desktops, but it was really slow. i tried to telnet in from my server but it couldnt connect and i couldnt ping it. i switched to a vc and it took several minutes before the vc popped up and then it was dumping "TLB IPI wait on cpu#1" over and over
<air> so i typed reboot but the speaker went into a constant beep when trying to send the term signal
<water> ouch
<air> had to do a hard reboot
<lar1> That sucks
<lar1> What the hell is the IPI?
<air> thats what im tying to figure out
<lar1> I'm gonna bust out the intel databooks
<air> its something to do with the tlb synchronizing in smp
<lar1> Oh, in that case my databook won't help
<air> ok i found it
<air> inter-processor interrupts
<air> volume 3 page 229 of the ppro manual
<lar1> Do you have a physical copy of the ppro manual?
<air> no
<air> pdf
<lar1> I want a physical copy
<lar1> But I don't want to call intel
<air> take the pdf to kinko's
<lar1> That is a lot of pages...
<air> 584
<lar1> For just that volume
<lar1> then I have to bind them somhow
<air> kinko's will bind em too
<lar1> With a cool Intel cover??
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<lar1> Just like my 486 manual? $1 at swap meet!
<air> yer asking quite alot here
<lar1> true
<air> pdf is a million times better than paper
10:30pm
<lar1> How much does this run?
<water> hell yeah
<air> find is a very powerful feature in pdf's or other online docs
<lar1> Thats true, but I really do prefer my refrences/tutorials in paper... or if those e-books thins existed yet, that would work too
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<water> hi, minni
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<lar1> water:  When did you wire the arrow paper?
<hcf> bye #tunes
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<air> lar1: get a pilot and u can have yer ebook
<lar1> air:  The screen is too small
<lar1> Its like reading docs on a TI-86 ( I have done this! )
<lar1> Well, mabye not that bad
<lar1> Hmm
<lar1> I must go... later all
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10:40pm
<water> bbiaf
11:00pm
<air> cya
11:10pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1028
IRC log ended Thu Oct 28 00:00:00 1999