IRC log started Sun Oct 31 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1031 how many times do u program for un*x with asm? oops Why is it un*x? Doesn't *nix mae fore sense? 12:20am cya later air -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) 12:30am -:- fusion [fusion@fusion.alphuse.cx] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff fusion: #TUNES (שםש Total uptime : 0d 1h 55m 7s) !netgod:*! king is rebooting, back in 10 !netgod:*! happy halloween and stuff -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) !Bhaal:*! Ya, halloween, forgot about that till some kids walked past all dressed up... good thing Im in a shop... So, ya, Happy Halloween peoples... -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us804.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial750.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Shalom! sup kauf? I've got moderator status at /. Don't know why 06:00am A few days ago my total karma was -9, now I'm a moderator 06:10am So what's up? -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial750.infolink.com.br]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial750.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes 06:20am -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber) -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from bear.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is bear.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from bear.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from bear.openprojects.net) -:- bear.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(39)] 7% -:- [global users on irc(223)] 43% -:- [invisible users on irc(300)] 57% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 3% -:- [total users on irc(523)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(31)] (avg. 16 users per server) -:- [total channels created(140)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !bear.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 48 (47 clients) !bear.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 5 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: www.tunes.org -:- topic set by ChanServ [Sun Oct 31 12:38:48 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:5)] [ TUNES ] [@Tril ] [ abi ] [ hcf ] [ smkl ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.791 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us803.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us804.javanet.com]) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hey air hey i hate friends -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp173.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes i was enjoying my sleep and one called me up and sung the beverly hills song for 5 minutes until i answered 10:30am -:- ultos [ultima@user-37kbaou.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes * ultos/#Tunes mumbles wow you're alive wow yeah hey eihrul do me a favor can you pretend that your a professional in the computer field? =) hello ultos ultos: what for? i could scrounge up professionals :) heh Fare's getting a PhD you could try him I need to interview some people for a paper i gotta write smkl you can pretend too =) 11:40am -:- mibin [mibin@62.10.5.19] has joined #tunes -:- ultos_ [ultima@user-38lcn42.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ultos: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ultos[user-37kbaou.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- ultos_ is now known as ultos -:- SignOff ultos: #TUNES (Read error to ultos[user-38lcn42.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- ultos [ultima@user-37kbai7.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-151.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes 'lo hi water mibin: were you looking for me the other day? abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 5 days, 3 hours, 34 minutes and 40 seconds ago, saying: hm, well, i'll be back :) you have a good day :) [Tue Oct 26 10:10:49 1999] water: yea i am curios about Arrow how'd you hear about it? well ... i am a lurker of the tunes mailing list ah looked at the paper? tried ... heh but it seems to heavy for me :) too* sorry, it's not ready for easy reading at all but ... got questions? isnt the arrow system supposed to be simple in concepts? yeah eventually but working out the theory takes work, because there isn't much like it 12:50pm still there? :) hmm sorry yea np how far is an implementation of arrow? the code is only partially-functional that smalltalk one? yeah hmm do u have an url for that? http://www.tunes.org/~water/Abstract-Arrows.st tnk tnx hmm my idea of arrow is that it is like a filesystem in which there is no definitive root directory ... 01:00pm and which can have arbitrary number of files ... and links to other files hmm am i far ? sure, but it's also supposed to be able to describe the concepts it uses within itself which is tricky :) hmm, probably `cause i am used to the limitations of the current filesystem designs it's that 'reflection' word heh but ... cant unix filesystems be considered somewhat reflective ... when they support links to the root dir or parent dirs? er.. sort of that allows you to hide the hierarchy (sort of) it's not the same as reflection e.g. reflection in a file-system would allow any file to modify the filesystem hmm -:- lar1 [lar1@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes Hye but files cant do anything by themselves hi lar1 but that's too powerful.. it'd be better if you could guarantee that such a file wouldn't corrupt the fs mibin: but the shell can :) I heard the 'reflective' word used! And 'File System'! I am interested in hearding waters explanation :) hmmm hehe me 2 01:10pm er.. what exactly do you guys want to hear? u :) I don't get how a filesystem can be reflective oh what if the filesystem were a server program? well, in oberon, block-structure = file-system each file was a thread of that program ultos: interesting block-structure? Is that just arbitray data? well, of course the file-system has to be tied with a programming language in order to be reflective hmm it could be completely IO-bound and with demand paging off of a disk device it wouldn't consume too many resources to access you send a message to a files process the oberon programming language is a pascal/modula derivative, so it has block-structure... procedures, objects, and data-structure then...eventually...you could work yuour way to a reflective FS yeah wow this is getting cooler and cooler Ok, better question perhaps. _why_ would you want a reflective files system? lar1 well what about a self-maintaining filesystem? and in the oberon os, the block-structure is the fs ultos: So the file system is more like a program then a store? yes But at the bottom of all the reflective stuff, isn't there a tradional file system? bbiaf nope just keep all data in a buffer, make the program persistant b give each thread it's own address space 01:20pm What does it mean to make a program persistand? keep it's source as data in a persistent store, i guess I think the best way to explain this is like a graphing calculator... you know how when you turn them off and then turn it back on, your where you were? Yes, that is cool it never really shuts off, it just halts the processor and utrns off the display that is persistance heh now in a modern pc you'd probably swap ram to disk (ala hibernate on some laptops) Oh! I have a poquet pc that does just that! $5, quite the deal I may add. Heh, wow. What kind? The orignal version Yeah, but what is it? =) Ohh, Its a Poquet, an old brand. It runs an 8086. Has 2 type II PCMCIA, serial, parallel, and full bus connections Its quite neat, it boots DOS 3.3 right off a ROM and is persistant like you described heh. persistent dos Wo. amazing =) how much ram? 01:30pm water: I don't really know... it doesn't tell me. heh no "mem" function? Nope, that cane in DOS 5.0 methinks heh make a program to malloc 1k at a time till its full =) well anyway then round up to nearest power of two =) My guess it that it would do that aobut 64 times... well, close to that, DOS takes some room Back to the reflective filesystem... how would this be different then making FAT persistant and constantly running scandisk and defrag? Darn Does anyone have a MLA LaTeX style? 64timeS? I'd say at least 100 lar1: but those tools just attempt to fix errors due to other programs lar1: they just look at the structure, they can't change it maybe if the shell had a real scripting language, it would be usefully reflective water: Sure they can. They do plenty ofmoving things around at changing the FAT hmm. ok but it's still a pretty limited reflection nonono its not really reflection What would a 'more robust' reflection do? scandisk and chkdsk are totally seperately they are not part of the fs good point ultos: Whats the difference? They woulud both be threads, right? lar1: no note: spilling coke on a keyboard is bad heh eihurl 01:40pm lar1: regardless of how its implemented, its still scandisk and defrag non-intelligent behavior eihurl? Nice typo. I'll have to remember that. could be pronounced 'I hurl' heh, its IRC what do you want? :) ultos: How would the functionallity you are describing become part of the filesystem? -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.10.5.19]) * lar1/#tunes SMACK! In a persistant OS, there would be no 'booting up'! It would just store the status of RAM and the CPU registers at the time of powerdown and restore them when power is restored -:- SignOff ultos: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ultos[user-37kbai7.dialup.mindspring.com]) lol Does that make any sense or is that just totally stupid? yep, but tunes wants more than that (just for your own reference) i.e. that idea is not very safe or reliable damn it my file system is getting all weird files are spontaneously truncating to 0 bytes important ones no less heh water: How is it not very safe? well, you could loose data if the power-down and power-up didn't go perfectly and if the system goes down due to a software bug... How does TUNES accompilish the needed procautions? then you still have to have a "reboot" function that tries to avoid the problem again tunes should do it by having its code written according to high-level constraints Say agian? 01:50pm i.e. because of the system code is formally proven, it is persistent, but it will also not have problems if the hw doesn't restart properly i.e. guaranteeing things like file-system invulnerability What does it mean to be formally proven? And how can system code be persistant? -:- mibin [mibin@62.10.4.160] has joined #tunes wb lar: store the code's source as data within the fs lar: and you can prove things about languages or programs using proofs tnx i.e. denotational semantics or abstract interpretation water: So you are saying the system code will be proven 100% bullet proof? for a better example, look at the Z specification language What is that? lar1: i'm saying it can be, and it should be it's a declarative language for specifying programs and allowing it to be the subject of proofs... used for mission-critical or life-critical apps water: In a 100% bullet proof system, power up and down should _never_ encounter problems at the hw or sw level? SW you're right but there are very few, if any bullet-proof os's most are for mainframes So you are saying the sw needs to beable to deal with faulty hw? sure, or to deal with "faulty users" :) or programmers, for that matter How can the user or programmer cause a hw failure? heh. they don't, unless thay deliberately crash the hd * lar1/#tunes remebers the time he accidently pulled a vid card from a running board killing the board or screw around with os insecurities, like violating memory constraints How would screwing around with the os insecruities cause a power up or down fialure? e.g. windows :) i thought windows' didn't need insecurities to reboot? it seems to give itself enough help in that area sorry, i don't have time for an in-depth conversation on this 02:00pm i'm trying to write up a new post for the tunes mlist water: Ok, let me know when you do :) * water/#tunes sighs -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us101.javanet.com] has joined #tunes Heh Hey hcf! hey sup? water was explaing stuff to me -:- ultos [ultima@user-38lc6ar.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes hey i need a new ISP wb ultos ultos: do u live in Alabama? -:- fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes Hey fare FaRe! mibin, no... Fare I've been waiting for you =) have you? yes * fare/#Tunes is back from a wedding -:- fare is now known as Fare being the brilliant person you are i was wondering if I could bug you for about 15 minutes agg, a wedding? ultos: bug the channel eihrul: that kind of things happen weddings are evil though, they are noise eihrul: you meet family, and other people too family is noise :) 02:10pm * ultos/#Tunes bugs Fare eihrul: were you born by a virgin mother, or perhaps without even a mother? fare: how do you think my current mlist arrow thread is going? thats genetics that not family... the relation sense of family is noise, not the genetic sense Afterall, your ansestors were able to reproduce (see mirror for proof) -- (paraphraseization :) of some dood on /.) I just thought that was the coolest, I was laughing liek crazy when I read that Along with teh other stuff that guy said abi: whyfp is at http://www.md.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.html * Fare/#Tunes hasn't followed the mailing list for a couple of weeks Fare: families only inspire favoritism and inequality heh. i remember that one in a utopian society, there would be but one family :) lar1: in the mirror, you don't see the proof, only its image. lar1: don't confuse the thing and its representation 02:20pm eihrul: why such a big family would be good? smaller is better equality eih: inequality is immanent dont u think diversity to be important? Fare: well, its an ideal :) not a practicality as for favoritism, ??? people are predisposed to help those in their family and not others really? then we are one big family :)) eih: so what? As long as it's not done at the expense of *injustice* towards external people, that's fine. Family help is a *positive* behavior it means there are people you can trust, and who trust you. Mutual knowledge and mutual trust are definitely a good thing. * water/#tunes bites his tongue how trust could be represented in Arrow? eih: admittedly, "traditional" mafia-like family *does* encourage injustice towards other people. #osdev ! :) mibin: yeah, and I like my near cousins (humans) much more than my far away cousins (cockroaches) water: why? hihi dunno well, if no one has anything else for me, i must be off water: what if we have love for you? uh * water/#tunes backs away slowly from Fare * Fare/#Tunes narrows water in the corner ack! -:- water [water@tnt-9-151.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] hahah * Fare/#Tunes turns toward ultos with an expressive gaze 02:30pm ultos: these are things that would better have been told on the channel Probably But I didn't want to spam. too bad for us all. on-topic chat should be in the channel. Yeah. =/ I'll BRB> 02:40pm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) * Fare/#Tunes said that higher-order is the strong point of FP languages; I'd say that they are the defining characteristic. FP is a bad legacy word for what is now known as HOT languages: Higher Order, Typed. abi: HOT is Higher Order, Typed; the true concept behind the name "FP" abi: FP is functional programming, a bad legacy name for what should be named HOT no idea, fare abi: FP is functional programming abi: FP is also a bad legacy name for what should be named HOT fare: i haven't a clue Back (Sorry, I was cooking) abi, what is FP? well, FP is functional programming or a bad legacy name HOT Fare: i'l fit fp oh, u did * ultos/#Tunes ponders 02:50pm well, when using 'what' u need to prefix it w/ a \ Ehm? \what is FP? functional programming eh, oh, I see. abi: what is FP? FP is, like, functional programming or a bad legacy name for HOT s/using 'what'/using 'what' in the part of the def after the 'is' yes =) hi Eihrul. Can anyone give me a textbook definition for 'higher order languages'? tunes glossary hcf: fit? s/fit/fix/ ultos: languages that have higher-order functions; that is, you can dynamically create new functional objects with closed-upon variables from existing objects, and manipulate them as first-class objects. Now that is a good textbook definition =) ult: add it to the glossary... * Fare/#Tunes is pleased to see that burnallgifs.org points (albeit modestly) to his relevant cybernethics@tunes.org message. 03:00pm -:- SignOff ultos: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ultos[user-38lc6ar.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial525.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.109.99] has joined #tunes anyone seen ruiner lately? abi: seen _ruiner_ _ruiner_ was last seen on IRC 5 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes and 21 seconds ago, saying: about? [Mon Oct 25 18:00:46 1999] -:- ultos [ultima@user-38lc6ap.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes thanks abi mommy, I want a new ISP for apple day! how did you do that? ultos, apple day? hmmmm' abi: seen god? I haven't seen 'god', Fare abi: seen the king? I haven't seen 'the', Fare heh abi: seen elvis? I haven't seen 'elvis', Fare -:- Fare is now known as elvis abi: seen elvis? elvis was last seen on IRC 0 seconds ago, saying: abi: seen elvis? [Sun Oct 31 15:15:56 1999] -:- elvis is now known as Fare elvis: seen yourself drunk? how silly apple day == December 25th Isaac Newtons b-day 03:20pm IN wasn't such a great man, morally speaking (I'm told) So? so I'd rather celebrate someone else's b-day Hmm. Like who? as my math professor says... "There's a lot of smart people in history, who unfortunately, had NO CHARACTER! NO CHARACTER! <>" a cousin of mine was born at that date. Nice person? very nice ok, we'll celebrate his/her birthday then =) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial525.infolink.com.br]) if she wasn't my cousin, I'd propose :) Ahhh =) (except that she's still a bit too young for that) Heh, how old? ultos: don't you touch my cousin! see injustice... caused by family relation :) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial151.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes eihrul: why injustice? back front :) -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp173.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes 03:30pm * ultos/#Tunes flies over to France and takes Fare's cousin on a date =) wheee! * Kaufmann/#tunes thinks Fare is the jealous kind, so you better be good to her Gosh, that must just horrify poor Fare. The idea of me with his cousin =) well, as long as that doesn't horrify *her*, that's ok to me. lol any URLs for SqueakOS? nothing on the squeak site itself? nope 03:40pm Later = =) -:- SignOff ultos: #TUNES (Leaving) 03:50pm I'm going Bye -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber) -:- mibin [mibin@62.10.4.160] has left #tunes [] 04:00pm -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.109.99] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us101.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.128.222.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey hey -:- lar1 has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: General TUNES thought, discussion and implementation -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: General TUNES thought, discussion and implementation, but mostly idleness 05:40pm -:- Borg[NOT] [idont@33-CORU-X11.libre.retevision.es] has joined #tunes -:- Borg[NOT] [idont@33-CORU-X11.libre.retevision.es] has left #tunes [] -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:46pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.128.222.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-139-47.s301.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 is now known as lar_working -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us339.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us101.javanet.com]) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf -:- water [water@tnt-9-19.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey water hey 06:40pm water: u many turn wallops off for the modtunes logger s/many/may wanna/ wallops? * hcf/#tunes slaps himself msgs from ircops ah -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-19.tscnet.net]: EOF from client) -:- water [water@tnt-9-19.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes oops i didn't notice wallops as an option probly something like /set wallops off its just bitchx i don't see it oh yeah its a personal mode setting ah probly w then i'll give the modtunes logger that right /mode -w huh? /mode -w <-- turns off wallops "w is unknown mode char to me" perhaps /mode modtunes -w that's what i did