IRC log started Sat Nov 13 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1113
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<_ruiner_> abi: water?
<abi> water is at http://www.tunes.org/~water/water.html or an expression of the Tao or our island of intelligence or mailto:water@tunes.org
12:40am
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
<Kaufmann> Anyone?
07:30am
<Kaufmann> Oh well
07:40am
<Kaufmann> I'm going now
<smkl> Slalom Kaufmann
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08:00am
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<Kaufmann> Anyone want to co-author with me an osOpinion article on user interface as a reflection issue?
10:30am
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<AlonzoTG> ?
<AlonzoTG> say WHAT?????
<Kaufmann> Yeah
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<Kaufmann> beh, want to co-author with me an osOpinion article about user interface as a reflection issue?
<beholder> UI as a reflection issue?
<beholder> How does reflection fit into UI?
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<Kaufmann`> back
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<beholder> UI as a reflection issue?
<beholder> How does reflection fit into UI?
<beholder> Last two things I said
<Kaufmann`> As I said before
<Kaufmann`> (quote) Simply put, most UIs to this day are based on gratuitous restriction of user flexibility
<Kaufmann`> (quote) By UI I mean the entire set of services and methods that support the interaction between the computing system and the outside world
<beholder> Ahh, in that sense, yes that statement sounds reasonable :)
10:50am
<Kaufmann`> Instead of designing UI in the traditional way, system designers should focus on making the rest of the system correct, and then designing a framework for the creation of arbitrary ontologies for system interaction
<Kaufmann`> s/system interaction/user interaction/
<beholder> Kauf: I'll be back later tonight, something just came up, I'm interested though :)
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11:00am
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<lar1> Hey
11:30am
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<y00> f00
<smkl> y0 d3wd!
<y00> y0!@*&#(!*@&#
<y00> heh
02:40pm
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<y00> ls
<smkl> su
<smkl> w4chjs87d
<smkl> oops
<y00> bah
<y00> don't be a twink
03:00pm
<eihrul> y00, j00 'r' 31337
03:10pm
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<Fufie> fire :)
<fire`> Fufie :D
<fire`> what's up?
<Fufie> nothing really... need a nap soon :)
<fire`> ah
<fire`> i just got back from a cross country meet
<Fufie> any luck at finding a gf or hacking code today?
<fire`> my team is the league champions :)
<Fufie> nice..
<fire`> well
<fire`> both sorta
<fire`> :D
<fire`> im continuing to work on my HLL prototype for TUNES (i've stopped with trying to take credit and now im just making everything for TUNES)
<fire`> while with the gf part...
<fire`> well im getting there
<Fufie> :)
<fire`> are you going for a PhD?
<Fufie> I have been asked but I don't know
<fire`> Fare here is a PhD...i don't know if it's worth it
<fire`> er
<fire`> becoming one
<Fufie> PhD doesn't mean too much imho.. apart from using several years on a possible meaningless topic
<fire`> i figure if you go six years you might as well go seven
<fire`> my brother was going for a bs in cs but he decided to get his masters
<Fufie> takes two-three years here and is longer than a regular PhD.. it's called dr.scient
<fire`> where do you live?
<Fufie> norway
03:20pm
* fire`/#tunes adds a notch to his scandenavian people knowing stick :)
<Fufie> the nordic countries is maybe a bit overrepresented in the free software segment I guess
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<fire`> yeah let me see
<fire`> one norwegian
<fire`> one swed
<fire`> and two finns
<fire`> no wait
* binEng/#tunes waves from Sweden
<fire`> 2 norwegians
* fire`/#tunes waves back
<Fufie> bin:)
<binEng> :)
<fire`> my grandmother is over from germany :)
<fire`> and my cousin from germany is coming next week
<Fufie> that's in the neighbourhood ;)
<fire`> im an international kinda guy
<fire`> hey is there a function in scheme that returns from another function?
<Fufie> can you rephrase that my natural language parser failed..
<fire`> heh
<fire`> like say you are using a recursive function as a loop
<fire`> and you want to break
<fire`> how would you do that?
<Fufie> like a "return" in c/c++ you mean?
<fire`> yeah
<smkl> you would have a conditional
<Fufie> or RETURN/RETURN-FROM in CL?
<fire`> oui
<fire`> ...?
<abi> zero
<Fufie> no simple return-functionality in scheme.. you need a base case in your (tail-)recursive function which returns 
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<fire`> oh i see what smkl is saying
<fire`> nevermind
<fire`> i'll just return #t in a conditional
<fire`> if i want to break
<fire`> since the function isn't being used for it's return value
<smkl> fire`: what is that function supposed to do?
03:30pm
<fire`> just evaluate a string
<fire`> god i love scheme
<Fufie> excellent language for teaching
<fire`> yes indeed
<fire`> after you've programmed in C it's like you are reborn
<fire`> when you start scheme that is
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<fire`> does ('()) return null?
<Fufie> (null? '())  ?
<y00> erm
<y00> no
<y00> your telling lisp to evaluate nil
<fire`> in my conditional it tests to see if a value is null then return null
<fire`> how would i do that?
03:40pm
<Fufie> use NULL? to test for the empty-list '()
<y00> What dialect?
<fire`> scheme
<Fufie> in scheme the empty list is a special symbol
<y00> Hmm, I'm a Common Lisp type =|
<fire`> i would have thought null? would return #t/#f
<y00> in CL, it'd be (if (null x) nil t)
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<y00> (Returns nil if x is nil, otherwise, t)
<Fufie> y00: the empty-list is not the same as nil in scheme
<Fufie> fire: it does..
<fire`> (cond ((eq? '() first-char)
<fire`> 	       (?))
<fire`> ? being what i don't know
<y00> Wow.
<Fufie> (if (null? arg) some-chose-null-value some-chosen-non-null-value)
<y00> Scheme doesn't have nil, does it?
<fire`> scheme is j00 daddy
<Fufie> y00: no.. that's why common lispers start out with (define nil '())
<y00> Ah.
<Fufie> y00: in scheme that is ;)
<y00> That was understood =)
<fire`> well all lispers should be commended :)
<Fufie> and the boolean faalse value #f is different from '()  :(
<fire`> fufie: your explanation doesn't make sense
<Fufie> fire: have you got a good scheme book?
<fire`> unfortunately no
<fire`> i have an online book actually
<Fufie> dybvig's?
<Fufie> http://www.scheme.com/tspl2d/index.html
<fire`> no
<fire`> an introduction to scheme and it's implementation
<Fufie> check out the link I gave you instead
<Fufie> though.. if you can get your hands on Structure and Interpretations of Computer Programs (SICP) by Abelson and Sussman that would be the best
<fire`> oh of course
<fire`> i've read the first chapter (which is online)
<fire`> nice book
<fire`> im sorta low on funding right now
<Fufie> check out the local university library
03:50pm
<fire`> i'll ask my brother if he could check out the UCSD cs library
<Fufie> or do as I do.. take an office stroll and talk about silly things while you really scan bookshelves
<fire`> heh
<fire`> but um
<fire`> back to my problem
<fire`> (cond ((eq? '() first-char)
<fire`> 	       (?))
<fire`> damnit
<fire`> wait a second
<Fufie> what are you really trying to do?
<fire`> (cond ((null? first-char)
<fire`> 	       (?))
<fire`> there we go
<fire`> im writing a very short lexer sorta
<Fufie> why do you call the function ?
<Fufie> (if there is such a thing)
<fire`> it evaluates the input
<fire`> but quickly now
<fire`> what goes inside where ? is?
<y00> 42!
<Fufie> umm... the function you want to call I guess.. 
<y00> except on tuesdays.
<fire`> no no
<Fufie> y00: right after teatime..
<fire`> to return null
<Fufie> what is 'null' then? no such thing in scheme
<fire`> '()
<fire`> i want to return '()
<Fufie> (cond ((null? first-char) '()) ...)
<fire`> ok
<fire`> :D
<fire`> excellent
<Fufie> it will be more readable if you make a (define null '())  at the start and do: (cond ((null? first-char) null) ...)
<fire`> sorry but im not one of those CL freaks :P
<Fufie> no.. the silly CL freaks want readable code.. wankers ;)
<fire`> hehe
<y00> Heh.
<y00> Well, it makes sense that students like scheme so much. They can write code so ugly that the prof just gives them full credit, without even looking at the code =)
<fire`> while im at it, is there a scheme function that converts a number string into a number?
<Fufie> y00: this semester when I lectured in Scheme I got some really bad formatted/organised scheme code at the first assignment and they got them back to fix.. on later assignments it looked nice and they all used emacs ;)
<smkl> string->number ?
<fire`> yes
<Fufie> :)
04:00pm
<Fufie> no.. tired.. good night.. (afk)
<fire`> :(
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<fire`> howdy Al
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> ToPiQuE?
<fire`> scheme
<AlonzoTG> What are you planning now?
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> I don't know that or smalltalk...
<AlonzoTG> KFL reccomended it to me though.
<fire`> yes scheme is excellent
<AlonzoTG> what kind of lang iz it?
<y00> Fufie: What Scheme implementation are you using?
<fire`> a lisp dialect
<AlonzoTG> semi finktional then...
<fire`> yes
<AlonzoTG> what does it have over lishp?
<y00> Depends on what lisp your talking about.
<fire`> it has much cleaner semantics
* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes y00 with an Iron Butterfly
<y00> Scheme appears to be a lot simpler than CL.
<AlonzoTG> but is it as elegant?
<y00> IIRC...The entire specification for Scheme is smaller than the index for Common Lisp: The Language...
<AlonzoTG> how far removed from the lambda calculus?
<AlonzoTG> well that doesn't tell me much. 
<fire`> it's very elegant
<AlonzoTG> but how hard would it be t
<AlonzoTG> o port to funky archs such as cam 
<fire`> extrememly easy
<AlonzoTG> hmmzers...
<fire`> learn it al
<AlonzoTG> I need some d00dz to help port SHRDLU to my OS...
<y00> SHRDLU?
<AlonzoTG> it is in an older lisp dialect...
<AlonzoTG> SHRDLU: AI, I'm trying to develop a GREUI
<y00> Why would you want Lisp built into the OS?
<AlonzoTG> ESMACKS derived apps package.
* y00/#Tunes shakes his head.
<AlonzoTG> GREUI = Glowing Red Eye User Interface.
<fire`> y00: mbye cause you want a cool OS :P
04:10pm
<y00> *IX does it for me =P
<y00> Should I even ask what a Glowing Red Eye User Interface *is*? 
<AlonzoTG> 2001
<y00> Hmm. Just as long as it can play a good game of chess.
<AlonzoTG> the hal was programmed to loose 50% of the time...
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 16 hrs 37 min 3 secs
<y00> Tril!
* y00/#Tunes sighs
<Tril> ultima
<y00> Tril
<AlonzoTG> WhY iZ MiCrO$OpHt TuRnInG tHe UnIvErSaL KeYbOaRd InTo An ApPlIcAtIoN SpEcIfIk KaHnTrOlLeR DeViCe.
<y00> Alonzo: What? I can't quite make that out -- you need a USB keyboard?
<fire`> lol
<fire`> Alonzo: cut it out with the hax0r shit
<AlonzoTG> why is microsoft turning the universal keyboard into an application specific controller device?
04:20pm
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<y00> hmm
05:50pm
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<yoo> hmm
06:10pm
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<fire`> hey
<fire`> say i did an if in scheme and i wanted to do nothing at the else
<fire`> no code at all
<fire`> is there anything i can do?
06:20pm
<Tril> just put the value you want it to return
<Tril> like t or something
<fire`> what if i don't want the else to return a value at all
<fire`> just return #t?
<Tril> i dont know if you can "not return a value". yeah
<fire`> that's what i thought
<fire`> thankyou
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06:30pm
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<yoo> wtf
<yoo> wee
<yoo> cmucl is being stupid
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06:50pm
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<AlonzoTG> This m00vee on the Sci Fi channel is like "My First Movie" By "Ican't Direct"
<_ruiner_> sci fi channel sucks anyhow
<_ruiner_> the only time I liked it was when they showed those anime movies
<AlonzoTG> Cube was really really G00D!!!
<AlonzoTG> they are replaying it next...
<AlonzoTG> WATCH IT!!!
<AlonzoTG> But this movie is Maximum Sux0os.
<AlonzoTG> Sux0rs
07:30pm
<_ruiner_> alonzo...lets keep it about the tunes project in here ok?
<_ruiner_> we could talk about all the recent tunes developments....no wait...
<AlonzoTG> =P
<_ruiner_> we could ummm....talk about the tunes timetable....errrrr....
<_ruiner_> ummm....y'know, the signal:noise ratio in here would be a lot better if there was actually a signal
<AlonzoTG> yes.
<AlonzoTG> SIGNAL!!!!
<AlonzoTG> Well get working on that tunes Sphere...
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<AlonzoTG> I'll have the rest of the os soon...
<_ruiner_> tunes is a wounded animal
<_ruiner_> or would a better metaphor be a malformed child?
<AlonzoTG> *shrug*
<AlonzoTG> Well I was willing to help...
<AlonzoTG> just nobody gave me a specification to work from...
<_ruiner_> probably because there isn't one
<AlonzoTG> well there's your beegest problem. =\
07:40pm
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<AlonzoTG> these dipshits...
<AlonzoTG> the first thing you do when the escaped prizonerz (they are always escaped prizonerz) get loose on your ship is run to the bridge and lock down all the preasure doors....
<AlonzoTG> GUESS WHAT THEY NEVER DO!!!!
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> =((((((
<_ruiner_> lol
<_ruiner_> they can't do that....that would actually make sense
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> I HATE ESCAPED PRIZONER IN SPACE MOVIES!!!!
<_ruiner_> then don't watch it
08:00pm
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<AlonzoTG> watch the one that is on now!
08:10pm
<_ruiner_> I don't wanna!
<AlonzoTG> you are missing one of the top ten best movies ever made for TV!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> anyway, Its soo good you can get it at many video stores!
<AlonzoTG> =P
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<Kaufmann> Blah
<_ruiner_> halb
08:20pm
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<_ruiner_> hmmmmmm
<_ruiner_> how many of you currently in the channel are at your computers and paying attention to this chat room?
<fire`> blarg
<hcf> ...
<_ruiner_> I kinda wonder if there are any projects having to do with this channel that will actually come close to completion
08:30pm
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<air> brix
<_ruiner_> air!
<_ruiner_> and yeah, I kinda figured brix would continue one
<_ruiner_> I wanted to ask you something....can you go to osdev?
<air> is alonzo there?
<AlonzoTG> om
<air> didnt i tell u to stay out?
<fire`> lol
08:40pm
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<_ruiner_> anybody remember if there was an article on slashdot about athlons being in smp systems soon?
09:50pm
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<lar1> Hey
11:00pm
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-:- hum [andy@pm615-09.dialip.mich.net] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> greetings
<hum> you talking to me?
<_ruiner_> yes
<hum> are you brain lagged or somthing?
<hum> FINE THEN, BE LIKE THAT!
-:- hum [andy@pm615-09.dialip.mich.net] has left #tunes []
-:- hum [andy@pm615-09.dialip.mich.net] has joined #tunes
<hum> hehe
<hum> i heard that this tunes thing should eventually be able to load a neew kernle without rebooting, am i mistaken?
<air> u are mistaken
<air> tunes doesnt have a kernel
<_ruiner_> tunes doesn't have anything other than a name actually
<hum> i konw
<air> brix can reload a new kernel without rebooting
<hum> but dosen't it refer to utilities
<hum> or somthing?
<hum> what can?
<hum> brix?
<abi> well, brix is at http://www.qzx.com/brix
<hum> can you apt-get that hehe
11:30pm
<hum> do you loose your uptime when you reloda the kernel wtih brix?
<hum> and how does that work
<hum> expain what tunes is to me
<hum> plz
<hum> :)
<air> if the kernel doesnt change data structures then u woudlnt lose uptime
<_ruiner_> tunes is basically a lisp interpreter
<hum> ohh, hehe
<_ruiner_> hyped up
<hum> hmmm
<hum> does brix ever fail?
<air> no
<_ruiner_> would you disagree with that statement about tunes air?
<hum> could you reload the same kernel just for fun?
<air> _ruiner_: no
<hum> _ruiner_: i don't know, i just now know what tunes is
<air> _ruiner_: well maybe, i think fare wants scheme
<hum> tell me this
<air> hum: yes u could
<hum> does the kernel loose the runing apps when you use brix? dosen't it have to reset the tss and stuff
<hum> Have i reached MAXQUESTIONQ?
<air> yer question doesnt apply to brix
<hum> yes it does
<hum> hummm
<hum> what if you udated from 1.0 to like 2.2.13? the structues are probably different, would it work then?
<hum> would all the apps be gone?
<air> u need to understand brix to ask question about it
<hum> oh
<hum> does it just do basically what lilo does, but when it's booted?
<air> its not a unix os
11:40pm
<air> brix doesnt have apps
<hum> isn't it a program?
<air> it is one large app that u build with methods
<lar1> BRiX is a kick ass os
<hum> but brix will load a new kernel without rebooting, (brix the app), right
<hum> I want to get the first thing first
<hum> hehe
<air> yes it will reload a kernel
<hum> ok
<hum> now, that is a standalone program, right?
<hum> just like, for ex, acidwarp
<air> i havent figured out howto handle a kernel that changes data tho, being that its a persistent os it can just rerun itself
<hum> but thta usus library
<air> and since it can boot less than a second u wouldnt notice a reboot
<hum> hold a second, this is for linux, right?
<hum> the kernel reloader
<_ruiner_> no
<hum> oh
<hum> hehe
<hum> that sucks
<_ruiner_> for brix
<air> brix is not a linux app
<hum> is there one that can reload a linux ekrnel?
<hum> a program 
<air> its a stand alone os
[openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed doogie (This nick is reserved by another user)
<air> yes there is a linux program to reload the kernel, reboot
<hum> hehe
<hum> i mean, without reoboting
* hum/#tunes wanted a way to load another linux kernel without rebooting :(
<air> right
<_ruiner_> why?
<_ruiner_> its just like half a minute to reboot, max
<air> in brix its 1/2 a second
<hum> well
<_ruiner_> yeah, but brix is better
<hum> you would get no downtime if you could do that with the linu ekrnel
<_ruiner_> but of course, brix has next to nothing for supporting apps
<air> brix can do a hard reboot that goes thru the bios or a soft reboot that just reboots brix
<lar1> RavenOS of course comes out on top :)
<_ruiner_> lol
11:50pm
<lar1> You don't need to ever reboot RavenOS for anything
<_ruiner_> air is a smart cookie, you have your work cut out for you if you wanna compete with him
<lar1> Hell, you don't even need to start it up!
<air> _ruiner_: brix can have networking and a gui up in 1/2 second
<lar1> air: Well RavenOS takes 0 seconds
<air> haha
<lar1> hum:  Do you code any x86 asm?
<_ruiner_> if you could get a windows emulator working in brix, I'd be there in a second
<_ruiner_> I can't give up my games
<hum> lar1: not past `nop'
* hum/#tunes is not aged many years
<_ruiner_> the oldest one of us is 25
<_ruiner_> of those of us talking anyhow....
* hum/#tunes has aged VERY little years
<hum> heh
<air> _ruiner_: brix is designed to run games faster and make it easier to write games
<_ruiner_> uhhuh
<lar1> Well, in RavenOS I use the new tr registers
<lar1> So it takes no time to load things
<hum> lar1: you like to make nop asm programs ;)
<_ruiner_> until you can get starcraft up and running in brix, I'm sticking with win
<_ruiner_> no operation?
<hum> yes
<lar1> hum:  Huh?  Nah... I use the tr registers
<hum> lar1: hehe, NO!, i program strictly wtih "nop"
<hum> hehe
* hum/#tunes can program c
<hum> though
<air> my first goal is to give carmack a 'woody' so he will port the quake engine to brix
<lar1> hum:  Ah
<_ruiner_> lol
<lar1> air:  Thats after you dominate the world, correct?
<hum> klol
<_ruiner_> id is most definately the game company I'd try to get on my side first
* hum/#tunes says "absolutely"
<air> _ruiner_: and the easiest to get too
<_ruiner_> they've demonstrated a willingness to port to other os's, and they're very popular
<_ruiner_> how so air?
<air> carmack runs the show and knows what is good
<lar1> Well quake III is coming out for RavenOS soon
<air> _ruiner_: do u have brood war?
<lar1> It has support for the new 3dfx chipset they are devloping
<air> lar1: u dont even know the name of that chipset :)
<air> lar1: without reading up in #osdev
<_ruiner_> nope air....I wish
<air> _ruiner_: damn, i do
<_ruiner_> I could probably borrow it from a friend
<_ruiner_> it most definately makes the zerg more appealing
<_ruiner_> though I still like toss....dark archons are sweet
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1114
IRC log ended Sun Nov 14 00:00:01 1999