IRC log started Mon Nov 29 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1129 -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn233.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes echo broken link on Review/Languages.html, clisp is at http://clisp.cons.org | mail fare@tunes.org you're using clisp now? i've downloaded gnu clisp pardon? just to investigate what it offers clisp isn't gnu there is GCL which is gnu, but that one is not recommended These are some additional GPL or LGPL-covered free programs which we think it is useful to mention. clisp is GPL'd though i had it from the www.gnu.org/software/ page and didn't notice :) so it's CLISP then :) i'll also try cmu cl CLISP is nice enough.. though if you're trying to learn lisp, Allegro Common Lisp which is free for non-commercial use is a better bet cmucl is having some troubles these days.. you might want to wait till the linux+cmucl problems are solved hm, i don't like those restrictions.. got used to mysql and when i was unable to use it, i swore i'd never use such things again :) oh okay, thanks for the hint hm bbl 02:20am back fufie; d'you use common lisp then? 02:40am yes it's my language of choice ah browsing through the source for the clisp compiler, i can't seem to note a big difference between scheme and common lisp.. (sorry? :) I didn't think so when I first started with common lisp either there are some asterisks and other characters i can't place directly though (language of choice: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/languages-of-choice.html) despite similarities, consider them two different languages.. what's so different then? the library? scheme is a small and beautiful language which is excellent for language research and teaching.. it's the dorian gray of languages common lisp is an industrial strength language meant and designed for complicated programs and have lost some beauty but is really powerful and people have put lots of thought into it it has also the most powerful object system I have ever seen and makes other language's object systems really pathetic grin :) i couldn't help noticing compiler.lsp being 500k, modularity is not the buzzword for lisp people, is it? :) or is clisp just a somewhat `lesser' implementation? it is not just a buzzword.. it's really important clisp is a special implementation.. though I think a file of that size should include generated code.. compilers are often generated code.. probably yes to be honest, most lisp code seems computer generated to me at first sight :) what would be a good place to start learning common lisp from? that is also because most lisp-hackers write programs to write their programs or at least, learning about its features' I would get a book.. Paul Graham's "ANSI Common Lisp" is generally recommended and I used it there is also an online book "Succesful Lisp" but I don't know it that well.. I like a hardcopy book I can bring along i'll try to visit the library today thanks 03:00am one word of warning though the Scheme community may seem more open to newcomers than the Common Lisp community This is mainly a matter of attitude.. approach with genuine interest and a wish to learn and you will get help from Lispers who hacked Lisp in the 60s :)) heh :) Common Lispers are kindof tired of newbies who have THE SOLUTION and got it from C++ or Java :) hahah hmm... could you try to understand what's meant by this sentence on the Review/Languages.html page about clisp ? : However, the advantages of programming in Common LISP cannot be overestimated: all the basic data structures a programmer needs (lists, multidimensional arrays, hashes) are available in the standard as object classes. what's wrong with all the basic data structures being available? I think I rewrote/removed that sentence when I revised the Common Lisp entry on saturday oh :) static html is really a broken thing :) I find it very helpful to have all the basic data structures available and good enough mechanisms available to make the ones I miss i'd say Schemers disagree on that they just want the mechanisms and then you should write the data structures yourself an old debate i can feel some sympathy for both however i think the current range of computers aren't `general' enough to do `general' programming, if you get my meaning I don't don't get my meaning? I don't know what "general programming" is it says that having all the basic data structures being available is an advantage that can't be overestimated I removed the old sentence.. it didn't make much sense fufie; i meant to say that because the design of computers in general is so young and perhaps 'fragile', that imho it's no use to believe minimalistic programming will guide you to the true path get a somewhat more updated one at: http://www.tunes.org/Review/Languages.html hm. that probably makes it even less understandable what i meant now I understood more I think a minimalistic programming language is excellent in a classroom.. and I used Scheme in a class I taught this semester I could teach them a whole new language and they could do a lot after an hour and had learnt new mechanisms and ways of thinking in two hours 03:10am in Common Lisp some of that elegance is hidden behind tons of helpful functions, classes, mechanisms and other cool stuff Scheme is nice for learning stuff, while Common Lisp is for writing real applications ah variables are not `typed' in common lisp? the values the variables point to are typed so there's only runtime checking? but for efficiency reasons (during optimisation of code) you might want to add type to variables ah that's somewhat what Dylan does too that is however optional so you don't waste time fighting types when you should develop working code * smoke/#tunes tries to surface the puddle of highlevel languages hahahah :) i see you don't like type safety ? you could check the type at runtime yes I like type safety but I find the idea of static type safety a dead end that introduces many new problems static type safety is when checking is performed at compiletime? yes what other types of type safety can one use then? remember that you can't have polymorphism/virtual functions when you have static type checking so C++/Java are broke when calling such functions runtime checking always comes alongside the crash pardon? crash? 03:20am umm you can have polymorphmism etc. very well in ocaml :P well, that's what happens when i use assembly language :) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn242.delft.casema.net]) i think you could also throw and exception or something in dynamic check smkl: ocaml has a different model than java/c++ but with polymorphism you could at least check for the base class to be of the same type, that's a little checking.. (in c++/java that is) smoke: does that checking help you? or do you as a programmer know what kindof function you call? fufie; well at least it helps when you accidentely switch arguments to a function Fufie: ok i didn't notice you were just arguing java/c++ vs. clisp the few things i tried in emacs lisp always bugged because i accidentely switched arguments smkl: the ocaml model is really different from what I recall to have read smoke: do you often switch around arguments? yeah ... typechecking isn't based on subtyping in ocaml fufie; keep in mind that i know only c++ and emacs lisp, so i'm probably mistaken smoke:and c++ fakes type-checking in virual function.. you only have polymorphism on the first argument fufie; too often! :) i even wrote a macro for emacs that shows me the synopsis for a C function when i type the ( fufie; but what other types of checking can a language offer? 2 sec.. phone as to macro: everyone who writes lisp does it in an environment with such macro-checking and we have instant help on our keys and if we change a function, we check with a keypress who calls it and see where we have to modify code this is part of the environemtn, which unfortunately is lacking when writing in other languages 03:30am ah just as with smalltalk? ie the development environment also helps to avoid such mistakes, without the need of adding type to every variable and function parameter smalltalk usually also have good environments as to what other type-checking but then i have to leave my warm and cozy emacs there is runt-time checking and it should not be under-estimated. Where c usually crashes and dies on you, a lisp program gives a decent message and allows you to continue running the program, swap arguments and then change the offending function or code right away before continuing.. no need for long compile and linking (we usually live in emacs, there are several decent lisp-modes with all those kinds of functions) even when running a (byte)compiled version? s/runt-time/run-time/ even when running a compiled version great that's not all a friend of mine has written a MUD which can be 'helped' with a horrid module-system :) in C. if you know Meyer and his Eiffel, much effort has been done to make pre- and post-condition checking in functions.. and this is hard in c/c++/java and usual languages.. in Lisp this is really easy to add, as most functions can be advised and have before/after and even around metjhods to let you check arguments and their values and so on during development hm.. you could even use a before-method to check your arguments and sort them in the right order for the real function :)) but how's that accomplished? just by adding assertion calls in front of the function body for example? (that's what i'd do in C) that might be one way.. YMMV and instead of limiting the programmer to one model as Eiffel and Java and C++ does, you're free to choose as a programmer hm lispers appreciate static typing as a way to get faster programs (when you're optimizing a program) but otherwise it is really choking one thing i'd like to implement in a highlevel language would be an 'event' system for a graphical user interface.. in C/C++ it's cumbersome, but i have no idea as to what lisp and other languages offer me in this respect lisp and functional languages are excellent for event-systems as they treat methods as real objects 03:40am much of the event-problems in c/c++/java/whatever is because they don't treat methods as real objects and because of the static typing scheme where every function must look the same.. and because they just have single-dispatch -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [03:42am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] shower.. -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn233.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes re fufie; i'm glad to hear that :) 03:50am :) 04:00am smoke: you want concurrent programming language, with linear typing at least I do however, it's the law of conservation of trouble; for now my problem is that i don't know /which/ high level language to choose fare; you forgot the blu calculus fare; what is linear typing? the blu calculus is fine, although it does no typing smoke: then you choode common lisp and in common lisp implement the other features or languages you want ;) e.g implementing Prolog in Lisp is really popular :) smoke: read the Clean documentation s/choode/choose/ smoke: and/or the hbaker papers smoke: and/or see Haskell monads and/or see these papers by Wadler monads have nice properties fufie: that's what they all say! :) use language X and implement the features of Y and Z yes.. but most languages aren't meant to be extended * Fare/#Tunes wonders if typing can be dynamically expressed as a special linear tag to objects in a typesystem that initially only checks for linear stuff * smoke/#tunes reads about monads and hasn't the slightest idea what this is about :) reading on.. 04:10am smoke: transforming side-effecting code into pure environment-passing code. monads are more generally foo-passing code can be environment, for side-effect; can be random source, for non-determinism; can be capabilities, for security; etc or continuations, for control; they look like projections/matrices to me it's basically about not letting a piece of code screw up the whole system by making sure the piece of code operates in a safe environment abi: no, monads are a general foo-passing style to express various bar in a smaller (e.g. pure deterministic) language. See CPS, SPS, NPS, EPS. okay, Fare. monads are specific to haskell? no.. they're a concept in category theory abi: CPS is also a way to express advanced control flow in languages with little control structure (Haskell) or none at all (pi-calculi and terminal lambda-calculi) okay, Fare. btw, category theory != set theory? abi: SPS is security-passing style, a monadic style wherein reachable capabilities are passed from routine to routine smoke: indeed, although either can be expressed in the other * smoke/#tunes had a hard time reading about fuzzy set topology a few months ago :) abi: NPS is Non-determinism Passing Style, a monadic way of adding non-determinism to a deterministic language, by passing around a source of non-determinism category theory != set theory, thouch category theory uses set theory typo day though you use dvorak? no.. MS Natural Kbd weird typo then :) oh no it isn't sorry. abi: EPS is environment-passing style (aka State-Passing Style), a monadic way of expressing side-effects in pure languages 04:20am hm this haskell book is of the kind 'if you didn't understand page n-1 well then forget about page n' oh well.. need to go to work.. bbl good day abi: monads? monads are a general foo-passing style to express various bar in a smaller (e.g. pure deterministic) language. See CPS, SPS, NPS, EPS or papers by hbaker, Wadler, Rees (W7), etc. * smoke/#tunes is off to university 04:30am -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf18.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf18.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn14.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes anyone here with some knowledge of Python? -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:47am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] 05:50am -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- yoo [ultima@user-38lcmph.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Read error to yoo[user-38lcmph.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (woeeeeeeeeeei) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-50-13.s267.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp23.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- winter [nope@208.193.238.134] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn14.delft.casema.net]) -:- winter [nope@208.193.238.134] has left #tunes [] -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn14.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn14.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn14.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes smoke: have used python some 09:50am -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes fufie; what do you think of its design? 10:20am the design? what design? it's as I see it a collection of pats from other languages put into one parts however.. it's much nicer than it's competitor: perl 10:30am bash is nicer than both of em that's not meant as a complement to bash... !irque:*! how have services been today? grin 10:40am -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [10:40am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn14.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.104.4] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: adams.openprojects.net split from devlin.openprojects.net [11:57am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [adams.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: adams.openprojects.net devlin.openprojects.net -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-42.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey Downix: Downix? well, Downix is a bit upset over that hi mibin? it has been said that mibin is sorry i am not in the best mood 2day hrm? fufie? fufie is, like, not sure yet. I have just started reading :) ok, what the hell is abi saying? hahaha hmm :) abi? yes, mibin? -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.104.4] has left #tunes [] Downix? you are a bit upset over that I don't get that * Downix/#tunes is confused 12:10pm So how is everyone? we're fine I guess I spent all morning doing common lisp advocacy for smoke though ;) 12:20pm lol gakuk hi Fare :) 12:30pm fufie; i couldn't find the ansi cl book, and returned home with 3 other books about functional programming one on 'type theory and functional programming' sounds like heavy reading and not the kind of book one uses to pick up girls with :) try Dante, Joyce or Sarte instead :) The Divine Comedy is always a winner ;) 12:40pm * smoke/#tunes still wonders about typing issues in lisp does common lisp do the same type checking as haskell and caml do ? Believe not in common lisp it is optional and done at run-time in haskell and caml it is an inevitable part of the programming and done long before it is run.. isn't that 'better' ? that depends of? on.. the programmer, what to program, the complexity, whether types can be known before run-time, etc hm programming isn't easy ;) Nope Fufie: sure it is... just programming something in particular can get hard :) smoke: as a general rule: the more dynamic the application the more you want a system with run-time typing and the more you know ahead of time and preferrably before you start writing code, static typing is good hey smoke, you never did tell me about your GUI downix; what? downix; is it for wearable computers? comp.lang.functional is the right place for static vs dynamic typing eihrul :) smoke: Yesterday you mentioned that you were working on a GUI 01:00pm downix; yes smoke: What will it do that other GUI's dont? crash? oops, no, Windows does it already! 01:10pm downix; it will run fast on old machines :) * smoke/#tunes is off playing troddlers smoke: I remember you saying that. smoke: Mostly I would like something fast/smooth for my own hardware, but something says your GUI won't do it as/is I like crayons for making things pretty Fufie: only problem is... window damage with crayons is rather nasty sooner or layer you're going to get a mighty thick layer of wax blue screen looks cooler though 01:20pm downix: grin :) as-is it does nothing :) smoke: hehe. downix; it will probably take a few years before it's usable :) ok -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[207-172-50-13.s267.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) 01:30pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-131-206.s206.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes smoke: toy-projects are a Good Thing.. one learns a lot from them 01:40pm -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-42.ici.net] has left #tunes [] fufie; i sure do 01:50pm * Fufie/#tunes yawns -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- rideaufr [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- rideaufr is now known as Fare -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-131-206.s206.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- td [x@1Cust63.tnt3.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Z!) -:- xim [xim@HSE-MTL-ppp2116.qc.sympatico.ca] has joined #tunes -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- NetSplit: lucas.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [04:57pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lucas.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: lucas.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes does anyone here know howto use samba? * eihrul/#tunes shakes. is that a yes u do shake? :) nope that's a shaking my head side to side no i think win98 screwed up its smb code abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 5 days, 17 hours, 50 minutes and 37 seconds ago, saying: air: or another, but i don't remember installing the vga font on any XFree 3.3.5 boxes [Tue Nov 23 23:23:33 1999] abi: seen water water was last seen on IRC 28 days, 5 hours, 54 minutes and 23 seconds ago, saying: good point [Mon Nov 1 11:19:50 1999] win98 will see all the samba shares and can access the public ones but it says incorrect password for the private ones i think water's boat sunk umm, better have not -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us800.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 05:20pm -:- yoo [ultima@user-37kba9f.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-23.vpn.uib.no]) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp23.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp216.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.141.33.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey hey-o er rather gakukl gakukl? s/gakukl/gakuk/g I have never seen the s directive with 3 arguments before... * eihrul/#tunes no puede escribir este noche. 07:40pm sed wants 3 arguments.... * lar1/#tunes no puede escribir nunca :) ja-ja Ah! Somthing is chewing up my cycles and I would really like to know what it is HMMPH! This is unbearable BRB -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.244.107.238.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Better 07:50pm what was it? did you try looking through 'ps aux'? I don't know, I just restarted I am in winstupid If I were in Linux I would have found the cluprit yep, stupid windows 08:00pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-131-206.s206.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- xim [xim@HSE-MTL-ppp2116.qc.sympatico.ca] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[dialup-209.244.107.238.SanJose1.Level3.net]) -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.138.64.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-118.s118.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us828.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp067.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- Lu [none@216.209.152.171] has joined #tunes -:- Lu [none@216.209.152.171] has left #tunes [] -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.244.105.192.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey om 10:10pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.164] has joined #tunes water? rumour has it water is at http://www.tunes.org/~water/water.html or an expression of the Tao or our island of intelligence or mailto:water@tunes.org 11:00pm me? mibin? abi: seen water? water was last seen on IRC 28 days, 11 hours, 41 minutes and 20 seconds ago, saying: good point [Mon Nov 1 11:19:50 1999] 11:10pm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[dialup-209.244.105.192.SanJose1.Level3.net]) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1130 IRC log ended Tue Nov 30 00:00:00 1999