IRC log started Fri Dec 17 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1217 -:- _ruiner_ [andersdv@kundry.luther.edu] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn69.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- WiRC [wirc@nieuweweme.demon.nl] has joined #tunes hi all -:- WiRC [wirc@nieuweweme.demon.nl] has left #tunes [Suffering] 12:50am * Fufie/#tunes yawns -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us739.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn69.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn69.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf11.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us739.javanet.com]) hi hi 05:50am Fufie: a friend of mine had some trouble with lisp: do you know how to make quadriple linked lists? (or more than quadriple) ehh.. what is quadriple linked lists? hm, a list in which each item links to 4 other ones useful for 2d maps, for example each list item has a pointer to four other list items? he thought any lisp implementation of it would be inherently bloated and slow yes. the common way to represent quadruples with in lisp is with a defstruct and then you make a list of those structs or a pointer to the first aha. too advanced for me, but i'll tell him and hope it'll lighten things up :) thanks :) using arrays is also allowed ;) 06:00am -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- NetSplit: bear.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [07:58am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [bear.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: bear.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US05114390__ 08:30am -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by devlin.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lucas.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lucas.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lucas.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lucas.openprojects.net) -:- lucas.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(5)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(260)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(321)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(581)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(31)] (avg. 18 users per server) -:- [total channels created(171)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lucas.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 15 (14 clients) !lucas.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by hcf [Thu Dec 16 22:18:07 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:6)] [ TUNES ] [ Fufie ] [ zarq ] [ smkl ] [ Fare ] [ tmf ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 5.974 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lucas.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from king.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is king.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from king.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from king.openprojects.net) -:- king.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(34)] 6% -:- [global users on irc(258)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(314)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(572)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(31)] (avg. 18 users per server) -:- [total channels created(173)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !king.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 72 (71 clients) !king.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by hcf [Thu Dec 16 22:20:10 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:7)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ Fufie ] [ zarq ] [ tmf ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.225 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- smoke [smoke@212.64.79.190] has joined #tunes hillo 10:20am hei 11:30am hi fufie -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes 12:10pm -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from king.openprojects.net [12:43pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net king.openprojects.net -:- tmf [tmf@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@212.64.79.190] has joined #tunes -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-156.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn69.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [12:52pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by king.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Interrupted system call -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is norton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 13 24:47 EDT(from norton.openprojects.net) -:- norton.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(10)] 2% -:- [global users on irc(236)] 45% -:- [invisible users on irc(286)] 55% -:- [ircops on irc(10)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(522)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(29)] (avg. 18 users per server) -:- [total channels created(171)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !norton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 23 (22 clients) !norton.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by hcf [Thu Dec 16 22:07:02 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ smoke ] [ smkl ] [ tmf ] [ binEng ] [ water ] [ zarq ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 [openprojects]!norton.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.777 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes hi hm !irq:*! what in god's name is happening? !larne:*! the network's breaking, of course !netgod:*! i hate it when that happens !irq:*! me too !larne:*! oh, I find it really phun -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [12:56pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.104.231] has joined #tunes -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@212.64.79.190] has joined #tunes !drow:*! No, it's called, let's pull out cables from these core routers! Backbone should be back in a bit, folks. We hope. -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[206.63.100.13]) 01:00pm * water/#tunes waits for cyberspace to re-stabilize. -:- abi [nef@206.63.100.13] has joined #tunes =) what's up? 01:10pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp81.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes i'm trying to get a grip on ilisp oh running clisp and cmucl lisp from the command line seems less cumbersome than from an xterm? no than from emacs using ilisp oh (which was supposed to make life easier afaics) heh emacs sounds like a great idea in theory, but the implementation sucks, imo running lisp from within emacs is nice imho fufie; what packages do you use for that? water; hm, it's all very personal, but it's the best editor i know of smoke: ELI hmm, editor? that's for connecting to ACL sure fufie; ah, any other packages you would recommend ? otherwise ILISP does more or less the same job with other lisps smoke: get hyperspec.el and the hyperspec asap.. it is really helpful when writing code fufie; ah i already have the hyperspec, thanks for the hint 01:20pm I hit F1 on e.g DEFMETHOD and get the full documentation with examples using w3 ? I think hyperspec.el uses w3 I get it in my netscape at least hyperspec.el uses browse-url but can use w3 ah okay afk 01:30pm -:- hcf [nef@209.94.148.253] has joined #tunes say, ocaml 2.99 is released cool 02:50pm heh. r5rs runs on my handheld quite well 03:00pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp81.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp81.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Z!) * smkl/#tunes goes to announce ocaml 2.99 in fm heh 03:20pm -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.104.231]) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.104.231] has joined #tunes it's nice those few times code actually works :) heh anyone here have experience with CL-HTTP? 03:30pm -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-156.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-9-21.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes greetings water hi bin 03:50pm hmm look like labltk was changed a bit and not everything was updated .. s/look/looks/ 04:00pm abi: 4os is a FORTH OS at http://www.itvc.com/Technology/4os.htm abi: schema is a scheme os at http://www.fredbox.com/~james/schema/index.html abi: choices is an oo os in c++ at http://choices.cs.uiuc.edu/choices/index.html abi: sting is an experimental OS designed to serve as an efficient customizable substrate for modern PLs at http://www.neci.nj.nec.com/PLS/sting.html does schema work? still in early dev. it seems !larne:*! any services admins awake ? abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 2 days, 2 hours, 29 minutes and 33 seconds ago, saying: heheh :) [Wed Dec 15 13:38:47 1999] !drow:*! Yes C program run -- Run program run -- Run, C program, Run! -- (please) * water/#tunes tries to recall the last time he had to coax a smalltalk system to run :) 04:10pm or any other good hll, for that matter * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug trug? well, you have to some how instruct programs to run, regardless of language :P !ChanServ:*! drow used GETPASS on channel #tnflesh yeah, but you know that his problems with his c code have to be some weird arcane errors water: short for dutch `back' arcane only to the apprentice :) zarq: ah eih: bah! most likely its an off-by-one-character error c programs need that extra please 04:20pm -:- Fufie_ [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: bear.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [04:28pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [bear.openprojects.net] -:- Fufie_ is now known as Fufie abi: ocelot is a scheme unix os project at http://www.sonic.net/~bear/scheme/ocelot.htm abi: nasos is Not Another Scheme OS at http://www.noontide.demon.co.uk/nasos/notes.html heh how many scheme os projects are there? 04:40pm ~5 atleast 3 wow what a waste of resources depends on the purpose well, yes abi: funos? funos is probably at http://www.sarg.ryerson.ca/funos/ there is also a gif/basic os: http://www.harrixos.co.uk/ :) huh? wtf! some sort of mac clone a friend gave me the url today.. it seemed like a joke but apparently it is a joke that has taken three years to make revenge of basic or revenge of the amateurs.. hihi, how pathetic "kernel.bas" haha well, that was interesting for 15 seconds what do you mean? huh? why for 15 seconds? oh that page reminded me of how I thought about programming 15 years ago :) just a random time-quote, i guess heh 04:50pm "you know you're a lousy program manager if your lisp program spends 2% of it's precious time to have fun on trampolines" :) heh 1.9 1.9 0.0 100.0 "(lisp-trampolines)" what are they? the trampolines? yea runtime optimizations which change the code for the next run like a task switching? ahh see the jargon file for an explanation jargon? like ... partial compilation ? yea i know about the jargon file abi: jargon is http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/The-Jargon-Lexicon-framed.html abi jargon is at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/The-Jargon-Lexicon-framed.html ...but jargon is http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/The-Jargon-Lexicon-framed.html... abi: foldoc for trampolines trampolines may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=trampolines I'll never figure out you abi, you're a mystery to me Fufie: use 'abi: no, jargon ...' 05:00pm * water/#tunes downloads DoomCE for his handheld computer :) hcf: ok. but it was the right way to add stuff I did the first time? does abi come with a manual? :) abi: infobot guide rumour has it infobot guide is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot/infobot_guide.html DoomCE? yep also available via www.tunes.org/~nef/abi/doc/ they can actually run doom? i also got the color gameboy emulator mine can what hz/ram does it have? 131/16 more than enough i suppose hmm... anyone got a good name for a handheld computer? pinky heh (narf) any others? or tim (from tiny tim) fifi :P sorry, no fifi's are getting a ride in my pocket =) fifo hmm that almost works what about chip? chip's cool -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( <k!14>) hmm so far, pinky, fifo, and chip 05:10pm actually, people will probably find it really weird that i have a handheld computer with a cute name well, fifo isn't as cute yeah, true water: piton maybe lilo piton? lilo is fifo, man eih: i know that so what's the diff? :) it sounds different how about naming it fufie? :) what does piton mean? python? i heard python was 26% installed... still downloading fufie: ummmm. no water: small pointy thing abi: heh these names are close, but not quite right abi, it? how about 'dofus' or 'retardo'? poly i'll have to think about it for a while why do you need to name a computer? dunno. just a habit more meaningful than "my 350mhz k6 machine", for instance i agree i usually confer "zarathustra" on my current arrow project hq give it a number what, like sqrt5? sure actually, i might name a computer <> when it becomes appropriate (<> = diamond) but you can't say <> without saying diamond... but that machine will have to be an arrow info machine 05:20pm no, "diamond" is the symbol's name, but the name of the thing wouldn't read "diamond" ya know... like Prince yes, but to "say" the symbol's name, you must say diamond well, you can't say the computer formerly known as my 350 MHz k6 machine though you could well anyway that reminds me i should be working on the next arrow post anyone got ideas for what i should write? :) a poem hmm... an arrow haiku? nah 05:30pm water: got any arrow slogans? argh ... fm announcement doesn't tell ocaml 2.99 is devel version :( -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-21.tscnet.net]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[209.94.148.253]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us146.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 05:40pm -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (No windows for this server) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes !netgod:*! king is bout to see if 2.10.07 is any good -:- NetSplit: king.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [06:00pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: king.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp81.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tmf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tmf[193.217.63.152]) -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [06:19pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- ultima [ultima@user-38lcn4b.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes YES!!! i just got my first spanish spam email international spam, wow 06:30pm -:- air has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://www.qzx.com/y/bubba_clause.txt air: stop clobbering the existing topic, append there was no topic oh -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System || http://www.qzx.com/y/bubba_clause.txt 06:50pm -:- ultima_ [ultima@user-38lc63s.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Read error to ultima[user-38lcn4b.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- ultima_ is now known as ultima -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- rend [quecom@209.140.40.8] has joined #tunes hows tunes going? -:- rend [quecom@209.140.40.8] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.104.231]) 07:50pm -:- kc5tja [kc5tja@garnet.armored.net] has joined #tunes Dang...core isn't here. Hello and goodbye, folks -- can't stay for long. In fact, I already need to go. :) Dang msgrs... :) l8rs. -:- SignOff kc5tja: #TUNES (kc5tja has no reason) 09:20pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-135-50.s558.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.131.217.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations lar1!" :-) Hmm I would like a box that was fast enough to take the rc5 project and spit it out in 5 minutes no such box. =\ 09:50pm Where does passwd get its key from to des encrypt? 10:00pm erm DES is a hash algorithm doesn't use a key to encrypt it modifies the input string in such a way that the modified string is somewhat unique, nothing like the original, and non-reversable. -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) The paper I read said it uses a key but it can use a hash as the key?... So how does passwd hash? erm the key is the string you give it basically It then drops a few bits off of thekey, swaps the rest of the bits around for a while, and returns the output. There is also a 'salt' which is used to modify the output in one of 4096 ways (Making a brute-force dictionary attack rather innefficient -- you'd need several terabytes to do it) 10:20pm Though crypt() is basically useless now because its too fast. People are switching over to md5 and blowfish. The whole point of a good algorithm is that the output is unique, and the algorithm is slow even when very optimized. Of course, it can't be reversable either. Hmm, does RH 6 use DES or Md5 by deafult? I'm not sure. Ok look at the password field in your password files (passwd or shadow) if its 13 chars alphanum, its DES if its more than that, its md5 So what if the key supplied by the user is too long or too short? Its padded or trimed? yes the key is 56bits thats 8 7bit characters if the key is less than 56bits it's repeated, if its more, its truncated So if the password is the key, whats the data thats encrypted? zeros sort of Umm its not encryption DES is -not encryption- Cyhpered DES and md5 are -one way hash algorithms- X goes in, Y comes out You know what a hash table is? No Ugh. Ok. At least not by that name om * ultima/#Tunes sighs i'm tired, its 12:30am, and I'm about to go to bed. So I will say this: Learn what a hash table is. It's a very simple concept, and there must be many web pages. Read up on hash functions. Ok a hash function can be as simple as Y = X mod 255 or something as complex as DES but some hash functions are one way that is, knowing X you can get Y, but knowing Y you can not get X. Like the cursor position in the VGA controler! not at all =) If you know the x and y you can get the address but you cant get the x and y from the address X and Y are just generic variables I was using. No -- you can get the x/y coords fromthe address You can? How? -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-135-50.s558.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) y = (int)(addy / scanlinewidth) x = addy % scanlinewidth assuming that int truncates, not rounds. Lets say X is in the range 0-65536 y = X mod 255 now you can't get X from Y because information is lost X is a 16bit quantity, Y is an 8bit quantity 10:30pm Hmm, ok You just dropped 8bits They went to the bit bucket ;) Anyway, once you understand hash tables, the theory of one way hash functions becomes easy to understand And once you've gotten that far, understand DES or MD5 is just a matter of understanding the underlying math (And you usually don't need to do that to use them) At any rate, I'm exhausted. Good night, and good luck. -:- SignOff ultima: #TUNES (SN00ze.) Thanks -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) 10:40pm -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1218 IRC log ended Sat Dec 18 00:00:01 1999