IRC log started Sat Dec 25 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1225
-:- lispbliss [lispbliss@cont01p74.ont.micron.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
-:- SignOff colorg: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2   cLIeNUX. Can you say that?)
-:- SignOff lispbliss: #TUNES ()
-:- mibin [mibin@62.11.105.160] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.105.160])
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us925.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- fire [no@209-68-229-11.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<fire> merry christmas everyone
10:10am
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp128.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<fire> merry christmas eihrul
<Fare> merry isaacmas, too!
<fire> :D
10:20am
<eihrul> which isaac?
<Fare> Newton, the greatest man of the last two millenia.
<fire> um
<fire> i think not
<Fare> he destroyed christian superstition, albeit unknowingly.
<fire> yeah true
<Fare> he brought us modern science and buried alchemy (by putting all his talent into it)
<eihrul> newton is jan 4, no?
<fire> cristianity was very mislead during the past too millenia
<Fare> uh? Been told he's Dec. 25
<eihrul> so isaacmas isn't for a week yet....
<eihrul> Fare: i just looked it up when you mentioned isaacmas...
<fire> two rather
<Fare> or is it a problem w/ julian vs gregorian calendar?
<eihrul> "Jan. 4 1643"
<eihrul> oh....
<eihrul> it does seem to be a calendar problem...
<Fare> Darn! I've been misled!
* fire/#tunes snicker
<eihrul> eh, they don't know what day the christ guy was born anyday
<eihrul> er anyway
<eihrul> so we can still celebrate the wrong date! 
<fire> :D
<Fare> Isaac Newton was born in the manor house of Woolsthorpe, near Grantham in Lincolnshire. Although he was born on Christmas Day 1642, the date given on this card is the Gregorian calendar date. (The Gregorian calendar was not adopted in England until 1752.) 
<eihrul> but at the top it says jan 4
<Fare> Depends on how you count things.
* eihrul/#tunes just hopes the next day air he paid for on his Lisp books doesn't become next week air because of stupid religious holidays.
10:30am
<Fare> This means we can celebrate Sir Isaac's birthday twice a year! Cool!
<Fare> (more if we also count chinese calendar, etc)
<eihrul> how many days in the chinese calendar?
<Fare> 365.25 in the average
<eihrul> so wouldn't the chinese date have the same period as our date and thus coincide every year?
<Fare> but actually, depends on the moon, with a second 7th month inserted when needed
<Fare> the chinese calendar is moon-based, like all primitive/natural calendars.
<Fare> abi: the chinese calendar?
<abi> somebody said the chinese calendar was moon-based, like all primitive/natural calendars.
<Fare> hehe
<hcf> abi: yacas is Yet Another Computer Algebra System at http://www.xs4all.nl/~apinkus/yacas.html
-:- eihrul has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || 1 year of #tunes irc logs <http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/> | Happy Isaacmas!
<eihrul> Fare: you allowed to divulge information on clementine? i have some questions about it... seeing as you have access to code :)
10:40am
<eihrul> Fare: i was wondering what exactly core store's in the interface section of his components (and how this relates to the ordinary symbol tables)
<eihrul> s/store's/stores
<Fare> eihrul: if the information is character-by-character description of a .tar archive of the sources, then I guess I don't have the right to give it to you
<Fare> or have I?
* Fare/#tunes hates intellectual property, but doesn't want core to suffer from that, either
<eihrul> i'm not asking you to give me the code
<eihrul> merely to describe how parts of it work, generally
<Fare> sure
<eihrul> (have already asked core and he's trying to clear it right now)
<eihrul> because clementine uses an IDL to specify interfaces between its components
<Fare> yup
<eihrul> now... is this interface stuffed in the symbol table
<eihrul> or is it stuffed in the interface section of the xcom in some other way and if so, how?
-:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-14.ici.net] has joined #tunes
<eihrul> i.e. how does a component specify what it imports and exports?
<Fare> the relevant parts of it are present in the xcom object file
<Downix> Morning all
* Downix/#tunes is SOOOO sick of X-mas music
<Fare> I'd have to look more closely to see what section it is in, tho
<eihrul> well, i'm more interested in what information is needed to import and export actually
<fire> downix
<eihrul> is it just another symbol table?
<fire> howdy
* Fare/#tunes used to have a 33-foo disk of tweety&sylvester Xmas music
<Downix> hehe
* Downix/#tunes popped in his "Duke Nukem: music to score by" CD
<Downix> Much better
<eihrul> Fare: on first thought it seems to me it'd be just a symbol table with some optional IDL information stored with each record on how to optimize some of the trampolines perhaps
<fire> downix: how comes your motherboard?
<Downix> fire:  Well, right now I'm working on a sound system design
<eihrul> Fare: is this correct?
<fire> cool
<fire> heh lengua is going slow as ever
<Downix> fire:  There has to be a simpler way to produce a sound wave than the typical method
<fire> hmmm
10:50am
<fire> i really wouldn't know
<Fare> eihrul: the parsedep utility dumps a .dep.h and a .dep.o
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Fare> the .dep.o has stuff in its INTERFACE section
<fire> hey if i get in the hardware resale business i, will you give me a good deal on your stuff ;)
<Fare> the .dep.h has C declarations for functions
<eihrul> but, what specifically is stored in the interface section? :)
<Fare> gotta read sources for parsedep to figure out
<eihrul> abi: seen core
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 6 days, 1 hours, 54 minutes and 29 seconds ago, saying: sort of :) [Sun Dec 19 08:56:51 1999]
<eihrul> sheesh, where's the dude when i have questions?
<Downix> dunno eihrul
<Fare> eihrul: afaik, the .dep.o basically contains a structured summary of the whole .dep file.
<eihrul> the .dep file holding the IDL interface?
<Downix> fire:  I'm not producing MOBOs, only selling the chipset and licencing the design.  8)
<Downix> fire:  You'll have to cut deals with our licencee's
<Fare> eihrul: yup
<fire> D:
<fire> oh well
<Downix> f:
<Fare> Downix: don't you have a deal yourself?
<fire> at least i tried
<eihrul> Fare: hmm, does the IDL contain any specific options for optimizing certain parameter passing conventions or other various keywords?
<Downix> Fare:  Hrm?
<Fare> with one of your licensees...
<Downix> fire:  Well, if you want to produce systems...............
<Downix> Fare:  Of course.  8)
<Fare> eihrul: not afaik, but you could add this feature if not present yet.
* eihrul/#tunes is going to have to make a clementine concept-a-like if he doesn't get code soon enough. :)
<Downix> fire:  Our licence rates are one-time, not royalty based and our chipset/OS ROM combo is not too expensive
<Fare> eihrul: just get core to give you cvs access!
<fire> oh
<fire> cool
<eihrul> Fare: i've asked already 
11:00am
<eihrul> Fare: and i'm still waiting for it :)
<Fare> have you phoned core?
<fire> i was considering buying parts off of ebay and building like alpha workstations
<eihrul> i've talked to him directly
<fire> and resell them
<Fare> face to face?
<Downix> fire:  You could me baking "Fire-boxes" powered by our chipset.  Just stamp a "powered by" sticker on it.
<eihrul> well, on irc
<Downix> fire:  Don't think it would work, Alpha's are not hot anymore
<fire> oh
<fire> bummer
<Downix> fire:  Intel's made people think that Pentium is the top dog
<fire> heh
<eihrul> Fare: i don't see what calling the guy will do
<Fare> aren't Alpha's still the fastest?
<fire> i'll build pretty much anything and just load corel linux on it
* Downix/#tunes is still waiting for a Pentium that can do the same tricks he can with a 7Mhz Amiga
<Fare> eih: want me to call him?
<Downix> Fare:  PA-RISC and MIPS are the two fastest, Alpha is third
<Downix> fire:  hehe
<fire> i can still make a profit though
<fire> on alphas
<Fare> D: it's not the pentium at fault; it's the surrounding hardware & software architecture (or rather, lack thereof)
<fire> i just don't have any capital right now
<Downix> fire:  Yup
<eihrul> Fare: if it'll actually do any good
<Downix> Fare:  I know, but if you'd listen to intel, the CPU is the only thing in a computer that does any work
<Fare> (of course, the pentium itself is typical of the whole mess)
<Fare> Downix: isn't it? other components are for play, not work :)
<Downix> Fare:  Yup.  "Now featuring a 16k L1 cache for high-speed applications" on an old Pentium ad
<Downix> Fare:  Hehehehe
<fire> Downix: is your motherboard ready to sell?
<Downix> fire:  We still lack a sound system and an I/O system
<fire> oh
<fire> I/O is pretty important
* Fare/#tunes is appalled by win98's installation. "Easy to install"? A hell! My, USB webcams were a poisoned Xmas gift!
<Fare> Downix: not even a buzzer?
<fire> downix: oh much longer?
<Downix> Fare:  not even
<Fare> Downix: and/or a bitbanging serial line?
<Downix> fire:  We won't be ready till the end of the year we figure, we have to test it once the design is done.
<Downix> Fare:  we won't have a serial line anyways
<Fare> how's f-cpu advancing?
<Fare> no serial line?
<fire> im guessing the end of 2000?
<Downix> Fare:  So far not bad.
<Downix> fire:  yes
<Fare> how will you interface the zillion stuff on serial?
<Downix> Fare:  No serial line.  Only USB, FIrewire and a local bus design we have
<fire> well i'll be there when you're ready
<Downix> Fare:  USB->serial adaptor
<Fare> not even a generic n-line port?
<Fare> (useful for embedded applications, too)
<fire> damn i wish i didn't delete that read function tril showed me
<fire> i tried to rewrite it and it doesn't work
<Downix> Fare: Dunno about the n-line
11:10am
<fire> is there a syntax for initializing a struct in C?
<Fare> only with constant fields
<Downix> Fare:  Any info about n-lines?
<fire> oh
<Fare> and only in an initialization statement
<Fare> (unless maybe with gcc extension)
<fire> so i have to change each member at a time?
<fire> not initializing
<fire> i mean just changing
<Fare> I believe GCC has relevant extensions to do that, but that's no more ANSI C (or is it, in C9x? any language lawyer around?)
<fire> i see
<eihrul> C9X is not ansi C yet
<fire> thanks
<Fare> fire: you shouldn't be using C, anyway
<fire> i know i know
<eihrul> in C9X
<fire> but i haven't in a while
<eihrul> you use structure literals to initialize outside of a variable declaration
<fire> i yern for more C
<eihrul> and GCC supports structure literals
<eihrul> foo = (struct bar) {a,b,c,d};
<fire> but it isn't ansi?
<eihrul> it is ansi
<fire> oh
<fire> opk
<eihrul> but it's just ansi-yet-to-be
<fire> ok
<eihrul> no compilers support it but GCC yet AFAIK
<Fare> has ansi conspicuously chosen a GCC- compatible or incompatible syntax?
<eihrul> no idea
<eihrul> but GCC seems to be the only one with some c9x features
<fire> thanks eihrul
<fire> heh my code looks cryptic now though
11:20am
<eihrul> very easy with C
<fire> yeah i think i will just change each member individually
<fire> to save others from confusion
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> mmmm
* Downix/#tunes is trying out a new recipe for buffalo tenders
<Downix> these are good
<Downix> not too spicy, yet spicy enough, and a lot of flavor
<eihrul> reflective?
<abi> i heard reflective was being able to correctly model oneself; see Reflection
<fire> druel
<eihrul> abi: shush
<Downix> reflection?
<abi> hmmm... reflection is a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on your brain
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> How much performance loss would an OS like Tunes have over a hardware-specific OS like Amiga?
<Fufie> merry xmas everyone
<Downix> Hey Fufie
<Fufie> down: theoretically, none.  in practice, some.  in 18 months the difference won't be interesting anyway
<Fufie> hi downie
11:30am
<Downix> Fufie:  how so?
<Fufie> (just got back from my parents and xmas-partying)
<Downix> How ya doing anyways Fuf
<Fufie> downix: moore's law about hardware
<fire> merry christmas fufie
<Fufie> hi fire :)
<Downix> Fufie:  Well, would not a hardware-specific OS for that new hardware still be faster yet than the reflective system?
<Fufie> downix: maybe.. let's say 36 months then which should be a better estimate for tunes if work is started now
<Downix> Fufie:  True.  
<Downix> *hint hint*
<Downix> 8)
<Fufie> :)
<fire> GEE I WONDER WHEN FARE IS GOING TO START CODING ON TUNES
* fire/#tunes clear throat
<Downix> I'm just curious how an OS similar to tunes would perform on a system design like mine
<Fufie> downix: I am mainly into languages and vanilla coding.. nothing close to metal, and for me a neat language construct is more important than a performance tweak :)
<Downix> Fufie:  Hmm.
<fire> vanilla coding?
<fire> i think i know what you mean
<Downix> Fufie:  I tend to think in terms of the hardware, obviously, but also on the hw/sw interface
<Fufie> fire: vanilla as in (Very) High Level
<fire> excellent
* Downix/#tunes is starting to learn high-level programming
<Downix> Until Fufie here introduced me to Lisp, the highest-level programming I'd done was C
<fire> so you finally crossed over eh :P
<Downix> fire:  Starting to, baby steps.
<Downix> LISP definately is nice tho
<Downix> 8)
<fire> not like me
<Downix> Oh fire?
<fire> i tried to write big stuff in scheme
<Fufie> downix: I do care about performance also, but we have our priorities
<fire> and got burned
<Downix> Fufie:  Of course.  For utter performance, you loose portability
11:40am
<Downix> Fufie:  I'd like a way of having both
<Fufie> don't we all
<Downix> Fufie:  Java's "JVM" was a nice idea, but noone ever pushed the concept to it's conclusion
<Fufie> which is?
<eihrul> java-os?
* eihrul/#tunes shudders.
<Downix> Fufie:  Make a VM that underneath is a direct hardware tie
<eihrul> Downix: squeak is probably closer to what you're looking for in that respect
<fire> hey what's that C library that has a macro definition of whitespace and other tokens?
<eihrul> as most parts of squeak are made in squeak and they have a version of it running on OS-Kit
<Fufie> downix: that has been done earlier, but where would the separation between vm and assembler be?
<Downix> eihrul:  Hmm
<eihrul> fire: man isspace
<fire> thanks
<Downix> Fufie:  That's the balancing act.  But the concept would work, make a portable VM that is underneath as optimized as possible
<eihrul> Downix: wasn't that what inferno was?
<eihrul> or wahtever the name was, it started with an i....
<Fufie> yes, and as all trade-offs there is no definite answer
<Downix> Fufie:  i know
<Downix> eihrul:  Inferno was an OS
<eihrul> Downix: yes, that used a vm layer
<Downix> Fufie:  I just know that these are the kinds of decisions I have to make.  Clementine may be one answer, but it may not be
<Downix> eihrul:  Never used it
<Downix> eihrul:  I have hardware that'll be a bitch to program for.  (RISC taken to the extreme)
11:50am
<eihrul> hmm, is $600 bad for a complete "open-box" indigo r4.4k?
<Downix> eihrul:  No, that is a good price
<Downix> eihrul:  if it has monitor, keyboard and mouse
<eihrul> no monitor
<eihrul> but everything else
<Downix> Hmm, the monitor may cost ya then
<Downix> they don't use VGA for those things
<Downix> But there is a TV port
<eihrul> doh
<eihrul> Downix: can you possibly point me to any good used computer place? :)
<eihrul> that would sell with monitor?
<eihrul> reading text on a television would stink...
<Downix> eihrul:  not off-hand, I just search the newsgroups
<Downix> eihrul:  I am doing it right now
* Downix/#tunes is surfing the net in 27' style
<fire> D:
<fire> my god
<fire> that is huge
<eihrul> Downix: how much did you pay for that thing?
<Downix> eihrul:  My TV?  $300
<eihrul> doh
<fire> oh
<Downix> eihrul:  Amiga's love TV's
<eihrul> isn't the resolution too small though?
<fire> it would own to hook up a computer to my big screen down stairs
12:00pm
<Downix> eihrul:  Nope
<Downix> eihrul:  320x200 and 640x400 are not bad resolutions
<Downix> fine for text-use
<Downix> and even for GUI, not too bad
!larne:*! any services admins awake ?
!HyrliK:*! why?
!NickServ:*! HyrliK used GETPASS on apt
12:10pm
<eihrul> Downix: find anything?
<Downix> Not off-hand
<eihrul> dern
<fire> heh is it healthy to write lisp like recursive functions in C?
<eihrul> no
<eihrul> well, not for the code anyway
<fire> D:
<Downix> Yes fire?
<eihrul> though for tasks like parsing
<fire> why not though?
<eihrul> C doesn't like recursion much
<eihrul> doesn't do any tail optimizations
<fire> some compilers do
<eihrul> GCC doesn't
<Downix> hmm
<eihrul> well
<fire> how about this function
<fire> inline char *skip_whitespace(char *string)
<fire> {
<fire>     if (isspace(string[0])
<fire> 	return skip_whitespace(*string[1]);
<fire>     return string;
<fire> }
<eihrul> it seems to do some weird things with stack space
<Fare> fire: C, that hurts
12:20pm
<eihrul> but no true optimizations
<fire> im sorry fare
<eihrul> fire: nope, unfortunately, you don't do things like that in C
<Fare> fire: learn ocaml
<fire> damn
<eihrul> learn haskell :)
<fire> i'll stick with scheme, self and C thankyou very much
<fire> i sure do like recursion though
<Fare> ocaml and haskell are designed for recursion
<eihrul> Fare: any books on ocaml?
<fire> so is scheme
<eihrul> or atleast fairly complete online manuals?
<eihrul> doh
<eihrul> manual was staring me in the face
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us340.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
12:30pm
<fire> i gotta go
<fire> merry christmas guys
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Fare> eihrul: sure. Ones by xleroy and/or by cousineau
<Fare> complete online manual, too
<Fare> win98 installation makes even debian installation seem fast and well thought-out
<eihrul> debian installation isn't all that bad
<eihrul> 15 minutes to install debian
<eihrul> 15 hours to install windows
<eihrul> haven't had any bad experiences with debian in all the times i've installed it
<eihrul> Fare: how well does ocaml handle foreign calling conventions?
<Downix> Debian install is slow
<eihrul> Fare: just wondering if i could perhaps interface it with assembly components and use it as the basis for a kernel instead of C?
<Fare> eihrul: ocaml can be interfaced to C rather nicely, if you consider the GC.
-:- lar1 [larman@1Cust207.tnt22.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
12:40pm
<eihrul> Fare: okay, but this means i could just use assembly functions observing C calling conventions and interface fairly easily, correct?
<Fare> yes
<Fare> you can also hack the compiler to insert proper asm code, if you're into superduperoptimizing
<eihrul> well, i'd only need it for specific processor dependent parts of the kernel
<eihrul> most of it would be in ocaml or whatever language i finally decide on
<lar1> eihrul:  I thought that you were going to code your entire uK in asm?
* eihrul/#tunes shrugs.
<eihrul> nah, naive idea i must say
<eihrul> i've learned
<lar1> What made you decide to switch?
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> asm works, but it's a pain in the ass
<eihrul> lar1: brains don't like doing register allocation too much
<eihrul> just became too much of a chore to optimize every little piece of code
<Fare> reg alloc is rather simple on a x86. Wait until you get a MIPS
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<lar1> Hmm, this is true
<Downix> MIPS reg alloc is a pain in the ass, but SOOOO worth it
<eihrul> Fare: well, atleast x86 is cisc :)
<eihrul> that...
<Fare> reg allocation is simpler on a 6502
<lar1> cisc?
<eihrul> and if i changed one little register in some of my routines
<eihrul> i had to modify all the other registers
<eihrul> to leave it open
<eihrul> this was very, very painful
<lar1> eihrul:  So you switched because you thought asm to be too much work?
<eihrul> no
<eihrul> i switched because i think asm isn't worth the effort
<eihrul> in the same time i spent writing one little subsystem
<eihrul> i could have written the whole entire thing
12:50pm
<Downix> eihrul:  Would it have been as optimized tho?
<eihrul> it would have been much more optimal
<lar1> Downix:  My point exactly
<eihrul> but some parts of the system don't need to be optimal!
<eihrul> they just need to be easily maintainable
<eihrul> for those speed critical paths, you can use assembly
<eihrul> but otherwise, its just simply overkill
<lar1> eihrul:  Thats what makes QNX so great... its relly optimised.  This is why windows sucks, its not optimized :)
<eihrul> lar1: sigh, you're overlooking my point :P
<lar1> eihrul: You just want to get it done and then go back and optimise?
<Fare> eihrul: you can do asm intelligently, by doing meta-asm, i.e. writing a compiler
<Fare> eihrul: see Ian Piumarta's ccg
<eihrul> Fare: why not just use a hll at that point?
<Fare> eihrul: writing a compiler *is* using a hll
<Fare> but using it in a resource-conscious way
<eihrul> url for papers?
<lar1> Fare:  What language would this compiler be written in? :)
<Fare> a hll, like ocaml, or scheme, or mercury.
-:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.197] has joined #tunes
<eihrul> but why not just use the language itself as your compiler instead of writing one in it? :)
<lar1> eihrul:  More optimazation?
<Downix> hmm
<Fare> eihrul: that's just a bootstrapping problem
<eihrul> why not just spend the effort making the hll compiler compile better?
<lar1> eihrul:  That would work too
<mibin> abi, hll?
<abi> rumour has it hll is High Level Language
<Fare> eihrul: that's precisely what I'm talking about, dude!
01:00pm
<Downix> hmm
<eihrul> well, i misinterpreted your statement then
<eihrul> i though you meant use the hll to implement a fancier assembly :P
<Downix> hehe
<eihrul> i seem to be misinterpreting you a lot, lately
* lar1/#tunes thought that too
<Fare> eihrul: the language you compile for needs not be your initial hll, either.
<Fare> although obviously it's easier to start from an existing compiler for an existing language (such as ocaml)
* Downix/#tunes nods
<eihrul> well, that's the route i'm taking
<Downix> hmm
* Downix/#tunes takes everyone's pulse, "anyone alive?"
<eihrul> yes
* lar1/#tunes pulse looks like a graph of y=tan(x)... :)
<eihrul> that'd be very weird
<Downix> yup
01:10pm
<lar1> Hmm, thats not the graph I was thinking of... oh well...
<Downix> hmm
<lar1> There is one that really resembles a pulse
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> ok
* Downix/#tunes wouldn't know
* lar1/#tunes was reading "Quick Calclus"
01:20pm
<mibin> checked out this one:?
<mibin> http://www.wintermute.demon.co.uk/meme/misc.htm
<Downix> nope
<eihrul> how come netscape locks up so well?
<eihrul> doesn't respond to any signals...
<Downix> bad coding
<mibin> not even kill -KILL ?
<eihrul> nope
<eihrul> the kernel interprets that one
<eihrul> or some of the ones that app won't receive otherwise
<mibin> what is its /proc/*/status?
<eihrul> its killed right now :)
-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error: 6 + 3 = -7 (Connection reset by third grade math))
<mibin> hmm strange
-:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<mibin> maybe it is just a zombie?
<eihrul> eh... i mean i killed it, its dead
<mibin> ahh
<eihrul> but the only way to kill it is to use a signal the kernel interprets
<eihrul> unconditionally
<mibin> ah, that happens to me too, sometimes
<lar1> Hey air
<air> hey
01:30pm
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial172.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> Hey gang
<Kaufmann> anyone?
<lar1> Hey
<Kaufmann> happy Newtonmas again
<Kaufmann> I've a monad question
<Kaufmann> ...for anyone
>>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial172.infolink.com.br] requested PING 946157844 from #tunes
<lar1> Whats the question?
<Kaufmann> I just don't understand the relation between monads and IO
<Kaufmann> or better, why IO operations are defined in terms of monads (in Haskell, for example)
<lar1> Woah!  Way beyond me on that one... sorry
-:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.102.197])
01:40pm
<Kaufmann> anyone else?
<Kaufmann> "There is three errers in this sentence."
<lar1> There are three errors in this sentence.
01:50pm
<Kaufmann> but where is the third one?
<Kaufmann> :)
<Kaufmann> obviously, in the fact that there are only /two/ errors in the sentence
<lar1> :), that would make a good mulitple choice question
<Kaufmann> heh
<Fare> "Translate this sentence in french"
<lar1> abi: x to french Translate this sentence in french
<abi> lar1: Traduisez cette phrase en français
<Fare> translate the following note on my french page: "click here for the english version of this page"
<lar1> abi: x to french Click here for the english version of this page
<abi> lar1: Cliquetez ici pour la version anglaise de cette page
<lar1> Fare:  Umm, why?
<Kaufmann> why the x?
<lar1> X for xlate for Translate
<Kaufmann> ooooh
<Kaufmann> makes sense now
<Kaufmann> Faré, glad you're here
<lar1> faster then typing Translate every time :)
<Fare> lar1: no. The english remark is on my french page, and you have to tell what it'll give when I translate my french page into english...
<Fare> which of course will be about finding the _french_ version of the page
<lar1> Provided there is one :)
* Fare/#tunes hits lar1 with a 5 ton anvil
<Kaufmann> Faré, care to explain why IO operations are defined in terms of monads?
02:00pm
* lar1/#tunes hits Fare with some stuff
<Fare> Kauf: monads are the natural way to express single-threaded operations in a pure way
<Fare> Kauf: monads ARE single-threading
<Fare> Kaufie: btw, happy Isaacmas
<Kaufmann> likewise
<Kaufmann> yeah, but how does using the IO monad automagically transport one to the realm of imperative programming?
<Fare> no, automatically in the real of single-threading
* Kaufmann/#tunes 's favourite seasonal tune is Jethro Tull's "Christmas Song"
<Fare> dunno this one
<Fare> I used to have a great 33-foo christmas disk of tweety&sylvester
<Kaufmann> Oooooh, Tweety & Sylvester
<Kaufmann> :)
* Kaufmann/#tunes is still trying to figure out the relation between monads and IO
02:10pm
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial172.infolink.com.br])
* Fufie/#tunes yawns
* lar1/#tunes smiles
<Fufie> lar: many nice presents? :)
<lar1> Fufie:  Mmmm, yep
<Fare> Fufmann!
03:10pm
<Fufie> hi fare :)
<eihrul> hmm, newtonmas?
<eihrul> that's better than isaacmas actually....
<eihrul> because of the pun on the last syllable
-:- eihrul has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || 1 year of #tunes irc logs <http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/> | Happy Newtonmas!
<Fufie> :)
<Fufie> if we were nice political scientists we would say happy habermas :)
<eihrul> wow... newtonmas is like 3 puns in one :)
<lar1> 3 in one?  I only see 1...
<Fufie> indeed
<eihrul> mass, ton mass, new ton mass....
<lar1> How is new ton mass a pun?  
<eihrul> shrug, it's a pun... somewhere, somehow
03:20pm
<Fufie> you should all have a merry lispmas.. I'll head to bed (afk)
03:30pm
-:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.42] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us340.javanet.com])
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us243.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<eihrul> lo
<abi> hi
* eihrul/#tunes ponders.
<eihrul> lo
<eihrul> okay, either someone is spoofing abi or she is really lagged
<abi> neither ;)
05:20pm
<eihrul> either that or we've advanced very far in the aspects of AI over a single night
<abi> lightning stuck and now i'm alive
<abi> s/stuck/struck/
<eihrul> abi can't be struck by lightning
<eihrul> being just a configuration of electricity in ram
<abi> it worked for jonny5
<eihrul> sure, but jonny5 was a piece of hardware
<eihrul> abi is a piece of software
05:30pm
<eihrul> hmm, how to concatenate two lists in ocaml?
<eihrul> Fare: ??
-:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp269.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
05:40pm
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Fare> eihrul: list.append ?
06:10pm
* eihrul/#tunes is still reading through the manual.
<eihrul> Fare: so ocaml compiler is completely self-contained?
<eihrul> well, so far as it not depending on any complex programs like gcc....
<Fare> eihrul: it depends on make, sh, gcc, and more.
<Fare> and the underlying OS.
<eihrul> it depends on gcc? :(
<Fare> and the hardware, the bios
<Fare> eihrul: only at compile time; once bootstrapped, it doesn't depend on non-ocaml executables anymore (except the OS kernel)
<eihrul> Fare: let me rephrase....
<eihrul> does ocaml compile to C....
<eihrul> or does it compile to assembly?
<Fare> no, it compiles to either portable wordcode or assembly.
<eihrul> let me rephrase again....
<Fare> it depends on gas, I think.
<eihrul> does ocamlopt compile to C or does it compile to assembly? :)
<Fare> I think it compiles through gas
<Fare> definitely assembly, anyway
<Fare> but maybe it outputs direct binary. Gotta check the sources.
<Fare> (I think it's gas; was, last time I checked)
<eihrul> just so long as it doesn't compile to C
<Fare> xleroy isn't the kind of guy who loves to write bit patterns into his compiler
<eihrul> as that would make porting it extremely icky
<Fare> he's not ian piumarta
<eihrul> ocaml is much nicer than i'd though it'd be though
06:20pm
<eihrul> definitely will probably use it over C
<eihrul> -probably
<eihrul> 'twas why i asked
<eihrul> last thing i want to do is port a compiler as well
06:30pm
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-138-169.s169.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<Fare> port a compiler???
<Fare> to what?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on Fare
* Fare/#tunes has no button
<Fare> if there are, you don't want to click on them
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is a bit reckless.
<eihrul> Fare: ocamlentine :)
<eihrul> since i'm not going to get clementine any time soon i sense :)
06:40pm
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp128.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp10.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- moo [chuck@cr231950-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes
-:- moo [chuck@cr231950-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com] has left #tunes []
-:- eihrul_ [lee@usr5-ppp206.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp10.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul_ is now known as eihrul
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp206.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-41.ici.net] has joined #tunes
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial703.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes
<Downix> hey kauf
* Fare/#tunes goto 3053
-:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (3053)
<Kaufmann> Hey
<Kaufmann> ¿Que sapo?
<Downix> What's up?
<Kaufmann> Not much
<Downix> Same
<Downix> reviewing Clementine
-:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.102.42])
<Kaufmann> Who the hell calls an OS "Clementine", anyway?
<eihrul> who calls an os windows?
<eihrul> abi: hello?
<abi> i think hello is a multi-threaded operating system written in Standard ML and can be found at http://www.ics.hawaii.edu/~esb/prof/proj/hello/
<Kaufmann> M$'s marketroids, obviously
<eihrul> clementine is reasonable actually
<Downix> Kaufmann:  No clue
<Kaufmann> but that's hardly the issue
<Downix> Better than TOS.  "The Operating System"
<eihrul> better than Be :P
07:20pm
<eihrul> sounds like a calbin klein commercial
<Downix> Just, Be!
<Kaufmann> ROTFL
* Kaufmann/#tunes is trying to come up with good OS names now
<Kaufmann> DoofOS
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Downix> How about "OSDR"?
<Downix> OS done right
<Kaufmann> "the OS for the idle-brained"
<Kaufmann> Uhrm
<Kaufmann> ARMOS - A Real Man's OS
<Downix> How about "Fried Egg"
<Kaufmann> ?
<eihrul> Kaufmann: gross
<Downix> your brain in a computer
<eihrul> generic reflective operating system for something...
<Downix> lol
<Kaufmann> oooh
<Kaufmann> cool
<Downix> Complete Operative Objects Logic
<eihrul> object orientated operating hell
<eihrul> no good words that start with H...
<Downix> lol
<Kaufmann> hellmouth?
<eihrul> logic operation library
<Downix> lol
<Downix> Real Operating Time Functioning Logic
<Kaufmann> MORON - MORMON Open Reflective Operating system for Nothing (wherein MORMON - MORON Objective Redundant Monolithically Operative Network)
<Kaufmann> that's just nasty
<eihrul> heterogeneous environment for linking libraries made of useful theoretical h-somethings...
<Downix> hehe
<Kaufmann> LOL
<eihrul> hashes!
<eihrul> though i'm partial to gross myself
07:30pm
<Kaufmann> Homogeneous Operative Functional System for Transmitting and Accessing Direct Technology that's Environmentally Remote
<Kaufmann> Nah, Douglas deserves better
<Kaufmann> General EGB Basics - Environment for GEB Bashing
<eihrul> Homogeneous Objective Functional System for Transmitting and Accessing Data Types that are Environmentally Remote
<eihrul> there ya go :)
<eihrul> distributed shared memory.....
<Downix> hmm
<Kaufmann> whee
<Kaufmann> This Is Not An Operating System
<eihrul> tinaos?
<eihrul> what kinda of acronym is that?
<Kaufmann> It's a self-contradicting acronym, GEB-style
<eihrul> but what if tinaos isn't an operating system?
<eihrul> then its complementary... and you're fucked
<Downix> lol!
<Downix> Who Needs an Operating System?
<Downix> WHOS?
<Kaufmann> I guess
<Downix> no, WNOS
<Kaufmann> Sure
<Kaufmann> Fully Useable Cabability Kernel for Embedded Devices
<Downix> lol
<Kaufmann> Anyone see the episode of SNL with the FUCK gang?
<Downix> Yup
<Kaufmann> just saw it
<Kaufmann> when did it play over there?
<eihrul> secure uncompromised remote environment
<Kaufmann> FEEBLE - Frankly Egregious Expansion of a Boreful and Losing Environment
07:40pm
<Downix> How about.....
-:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB
<Downix> Downix == Downes Offer for Wholistic Natrual Indexed XXX-movies
<Downix> 8)
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net])
* Downix/#tunes listens to the crickets
-:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann
<Kaufmann> Painfully Erect Natural Individual Spawner
<Downix> eww
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> Repetitive Environment for Handy Application of Systematic Homogeneization
<Kaufmann> "... the Painfully Erect Natural Individual Spawner is a handy tool for Software EXchange..."
07:50pm
<eihrul> ah, come on...
<eihrul> you couldn't even name an poerating system that....
<eihrul> the acronym has to have buzzwords in it :P
<Downix> Main Assembly System To Erroneously Report Basic Application Through Individual Operating Networks
<eihrul> persistent environment for networked interpretive systems!
<Kaufmann> "... however, it should be mentioned that unsafe Software EXchange can be the harbinger of Virtual Dysfunctions..."
<Downix> lol
<eihrul> penis is good, gross is good
<eihrul> though need a better name
<Downix> hehe
<Kaufmann> Visual Interpreter from Redmond for Users of Software
<Kaufmann> Common Reflective Applicative Programming
<AlonzoTG> Persistant User Suport System; oh Yes!
<Kaufmann> Welcome to our, uhm, inspired discussion, Al
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> this is soo lame.
<Kaufmann> Waitaminnit, y'all, I have to see if I've already seen this week's episode of X-Files
<AlonzoTG> =)
<eihrul> AlonzoTG: so suggest something less lame
<Downix> How about Artificial Logic Or Neural Zeta Operating Through Graphics
<Downix> 8)
-:- Ultos [u1407451@user-38lcn5h.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> om
-:- Ultos [u1407451@user-38lcn5h.dialup.mindspring.com] has left #tunes []
<Downix> hehehehehe
* Downix/#tunes is watchinbg bloopers from "A Bugs Life"
<eihrul> animation bloopers?
08:00pm
<Downix> No, they "created" bloopers as if it was a life shoot
<Kaufmann> Yeah, I've seen this one
<Downix> Even aniomated camera crew, cameras, mics, director, etc.
<Kaufmann> it's the one with the creepy ghost house
<Downix> it was hilarious
<Kaufmann> quite a good episode
* eihrul/#tunes ponders if there's a Haskell -> OCaml translater.
<Kaufmann> Hey, today is the day Chaplin died
<Downix> Yup
* Kaufmann/#tunes ponders whether there's a reason why conversation has died
<Downix> I think the anacronyms died
<eihrul> it hasn't died
<eihrul> its just umm, recharging
<Kaufmann> I've got good corporation names, tho
<Downix> I could use some of those
<Kaufmann> "The Cthulhu Corporation: Awakening the Ancient God... for your satisfaction!"
<Downix> We're using Anubis Development right now, but if any better ideas......."
<Downix> lol, don't think so
08:10pm
<Kaufmann> "CrapCo: Our products are consistent crap"
<Kaufmann> take it any way you want it
<Downix> lol
<Downix> ManureTech:  We may stink but good things come out of it
<Kaufmann> "BeggarSoft: we're great engineers, but poor salesmen - otherwise we'd be MillionaireSoft or something. See - we can't even come up with a good slogan! I'm gonna go and build some ICs over there now."
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<Downix> lol
<Kaufmann> "SolipSoft: does our software really exist? No one can be really sure!"
<Kaufmann> (also known as Microsoft)
<Downix> WarezCorp, we make our software, honest, no pirated stuff...
08:20pm
<Kaufmann> And the ultimate in corporate names
<Kaufmann> Aucentionsoftz.com
<Kaufmann> Combines "Au" = gold, "ent" (as in Lucent, Aquent, etc.), "ion", a wrongly spelled "s", and the now-omnipresent dot-com
<Kaufmann> Expect an IPO soon
<Downix> hmmm
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-138-240.s240.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> Ah, Al
* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Kaufmann!" :-)
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial703.infolink.com.br])
08:30pm
-:- ultima [ultima@user-37kbane.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes
<ultima> Be's technology? What technology?
<eihrul> heh
08:40pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us243.javanet.com])
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us334.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- lar1 [larman@1Cust92.tnt22.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes
-:- lar1 has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes, a free reflective system:  http:\\www.tunes.org
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1226
IRC log ended Sun Dec 26 00:00:01 1999