IRC log started Wed Jan 5 12:39:09 2000 [msg(tunes)] permlog 2000.0105 -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Everybody was Kung Fu fighting!) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.105.101] has joined #tunes -:- johhnystu [user1186@207.125.140.113] has joined #tunes hey -:- johhnystu [user1186@207.125.140.113] has left #tunes [] hey arrgh 01:00pm [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed punisher (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed sigKILL (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (main(){fork();main();}) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp30.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed spike (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- peterh [peterh@back4.berkom.de] has joined #tunes [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Lazarus (This nick is reserved by another user) -:- ult [pope@user-38lc62g.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pipiness: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pipiness[usl8-248-249.netsecure.net]) * Fufie/#tunes yawns * eihrul/#tunes (nil! Fufie)s. -:- peterh [peterh@back4.berkom.de] has left #tunes [] ouchie 02:20pm -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-24.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@a-ii2-57.tin.it] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [arkman@dialup-209.244.106.37.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey lo -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc62g.dialup.mindspring.com]) 02:50pm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@*.cas-kit.golden.net, expiring at 947094801: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Z) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[a-ii2-57.tin.it]) Gakuk! kukag are you parting? from somewhere but here i'm arriving... 03:10pm and given that the earth rotates very rapidly i'm parting from my current position at a very rapid rate -:- mibin [mibin@a-ii2-23.tin.it] has joined #tunes 03:20pm -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.208] has joined #tunes Boy, it's official what is? I'm really fscked up lol did ya get the info about the kiosks? Heh, Kaufmann I tell you, I wish I could find somebody in this city's government who knows anything at all ok One of the researchers at the Institute has a project for which he seems to have been able to get in touch with "the right people", so I'm going to ask him Kauflam: Alright, thank you. I can guarantee the better design now BTW Kiosks? man man man man man, I'm fscked up. I mean, who else would look at something like the Orthogonal 0.2 manual and think "hey, I should write an IDE for that language"? Kaufmann: aaaaiieeee let alone go ahead and do it! what!? orthogonal is like Befunge, isn't it? kinda only a bit less painful i mean, program flow is handles similarly it's also based on a traversable data/code grid and a stack... but the specifics are different. * zarq/#tunes is away: z actually, it's turning out OK... my program lets you edit the grid interactively, run programs in step mode, and has all sorts of other cool features. It's kind of like Lisp that way * Kaufmann/#tunes ducks Kaufmann: it would be interesting at least... :) yeah good or scaring small children with, too... s/or/for/ I'm prototyping it in Perl, but I'll probably end up implementing it in good old C no.... s/old/bad/ write it in Orthogonal. :) I prolly wilL! :) 03:50pm just as soon as I write a reasonable I/O extension write a GTK binding too :) ah yes, did I mention that? My Orthogonal will also be dynamically extensible ... and reflective when in interpreted mode, of course I'll also add an Orthogonal->Perl->GCC interface naturally. yeah. Of course, the _next step_ is to build a full-fledged hardware-implemented Orthogonal Machine oh, of course ... and befunge will be the assembler. :) heh actually, the design I have in mind for the Orthogonal Machine is a 3-D grid, like Trefunge's trefunge? *twitch* yeah. It's basically a 3-dimensional Befunge. in theory, you can have n-dimensional funges see the Funge-98 report mmm. i think i need to get a course set up here in Funge Theory. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed sgore (This nick is reserved by another user) it's really cool of course, I'll be damned if I can understand it :) The King of Jobs lives again! Huzzah! hehe * Fufie/#tunes gets headache just thinking of rewriting his language frontend BTW, washort, do I know you? too many convenience quick hacks that must be generalised.. :( My book on Common LISP came in today tomorrow I pick it up 8) Kaufmann: i doubt it Downix, "pick it up"? washort, new to the channel? Kaufmann: It came into the bookstore, I'll buy it tomorrow downix: which one? Kaufmann: Yes. Fufie: ANSI Common LISP 04:00pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp30.lvdi.net]) downix: ahh.. I have it here.. two centimetres away :) Fufie: any good? Which book is that? kauf: Graham's ANSI Common Lisp downix: yes.. it's great as a tutorial Alright Never seen it * Downix/#tunes wants to do LISP badly Well please dont... there is enough bad code out there already! heh :) AFAIK, there are only two bookstores here in Rio that are serious about import computer books. One of them, thankfully, is only about 3km from my place, but when it comes to programming, it only has C++, Java and Perl books * lar1/#tunes hopes Downix doesn't misinterpet that... * Downix/#tunes laughs lar1: Well, mostly I want to try out something different. kauf: most bookstores need to sell plenty of books kauf: lispers are still a rare breed The other one is downtown (read: at least an hour and a half cramped on a bus), and it's only marginally better. Both sell all imports at extorsive prices. Downix: Yea, I want to learn it because I hear its the language for Nural Networks, and I _really_ want to do that lar1: Agreed there. Plus AI work *shiver* Downix: THats what the NNs are for lar1: Right. Connectivist AI in its current incarnation isn't all that it's cracked up to be lar1: DO you go for actual neurons, or simulationg the actions of one? Kaufmann: Agreed Downix: I don't know I haven't started. I know nothing about NN really. lar1: ok connectivist AI === NNs, btw 04:10pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-131-38.s38.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) ok I'm mostly interested in using reflective AI for such things as a search engine The catch, it seems, is getting the neuronal model right when real-world data is so scarce - neural citology is itself in its early days Kaufmann: Do you have any good reasources for learning about such? Well, I think NN is not necessary for AI not to mention that it's hard to find out whether your model works similarly to the real thing when the complexity of the real thing exceeds that of your model by oh, say about 10 or so orders of magnitude Downix, depends on your definition of AI then -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d125.narrowgate.net]) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[a-ii2-23.tin.it]) Kaufmann: AI to me is just that, Artificial Intellitence, allowing a non-living device to act and respond as if it possessed true intelligence. the name already makes it clear: connectivist AI is about connections. A NN "brain" with 1000 "neurons" may be made to work like that of, say, an earthworm or something... the number of connections is about the same. But the human brain has some 100 billion neurons, each with some 100 connections. It's just a matter of doing the math. * Downix/#tunes nods that's why I'm not betting my horses that there'll be feasible sofware-based NNing before there's nanotech and therefore feasible, and much more powerful, hardware-based NNing. Agreed frankly, I see mechanical AI as being quite fixed, compared to organic, but still quite possible We could easily get a computer that could think, albeight in a limited fashion Until then, one can surely make do with what he has - that is, symbolic "AI": not strong AI in the sense that it doesn't _actually_ think, but useful nonetheless. Downix, what do you call "mechanical" AI? I'll be back in a second -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB KaufmannBRB: Something not using neurons but instead microchips andtransistors 04:20pm -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann And who said anything about microchips and transistors? Those will be a thing of the past soon enough. Soon enough is not here yet, and may not ever get here Many of the new technologies have some severe weaknesses with them -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes Hey air Picture the future: a neural network made out of not mere billions, but /quatrillions/ of ridiculously small "neurons", each built atom-by-atom by one of billions of assemblers to fit its part in the whole of the network. While organic neurons are individually slow (the equivalent of 100 Hz), these will have the benefit of artificial design, being able to fire many times every nano-second. The resulting "brain" will be conceptually "just like" an organic (cont'd) but many times more powerful. hey lar1 Of course, I'm an optimist... And what if that AI wants to harm us? ya what if that AI wants to bend u over :) it is our god. it can do anything it wants to Why "that" AI? There'll be thousands of them - each of those will be dirt-cheap to manufacture. (/Literally/ dirt-cheap. You toss a few kilos of dirt into the nano-plasma, the assemblers break the organic molecules, take the carbon and other elements and process it according to the instructions in their "seed". Voila - instant godlike AI.) uh huh -:- washort [washort@d140.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes ok anyone have q3 arena? air: Not yet, I'm going to buy it tomorrow The good news are: 1) we (or rather, any of us who remain - see #2) will not be important enough. Why bother with boring bipeds when you can do much more fun things like build a Dyson sphere around Alpha Centauri? 04:30pm Downix: just bought it last gonna, gonna try it out right now air: Cool. (Does it have a stand-alone game, or just net-only?) uhh it has single player and 2) many of us won't remain human at all. Why bother with being a boring biped when you can buy an "EZ-AI" kit for a few credits, take a shot and become a cybergod yourself, /overnight/? -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp124.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes air: Ok, cool but from what i just read in the book it sounds like single player is like botmatch in unreal air: That sucks * Downix/#tunes likes being able to just play a game [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) Hey, I did it! I managed to get the rant-mode warp factor so high that /nobody at all/ bothered to keep paying attention to me! :) Kaufmann: i did pay attention -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us817.javanet.com]) j/k [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. what do you think, then? -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB I think AI should be made for the embetterment of man, not for the replacement replacing mankind wouldn't be such a dumb idea -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann what better form of embetterment could there be? after all.. replacing mankind with androids would be the highest form of bootstrapping 04:40pm lol [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) Well, being a human, I for one don't want it you're sure you don't want chipzilla to attach a chip in your brain that allows you to do all sorts of maths instantly? and real and genuine photographic memory would be nice Fufie: I'm quite sure -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us305.javanet.com] has joined #tunes and our eyes suck at zooming that's cybernetics, not AI Which I will not do to myself but if someone else does, go for it [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. Firstly, what I'm talking about is more nanotech than AI per se. Secondly, what better embetterment for man as whole than to upgrade his pathetically feeble hardware to a better-built system? I mean, it has been enough for us for the past hundred millions, but not any more. first cybernethics.. then we'll replace the bad parts of humanity with lisp-programs ;) lol [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. cybernetics plus AI would allow u to talk to yerself and it could watch yer back need hardware first, after all * Downix/#tunes points Kaufmann to a little known work written by Dr Pedler and Gary Davis, titled "The Tenth Planet" I say that, ultimately, what makes us human is our minds. By uploading ourselves to better bodies and brains, we will become /post-human/... but not at all inhuman in the sense that you might conceive it. It's the ultimate means of directed evolution. Kaufmann: But at what point do you stop being human and become machine? leaving our frail physical bodies would be nice.. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- NetSplit: clarke.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [04:44pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [clarke.openprojects.net] Fufie: sure, but could you say you'd be you outside of your frail physical body? Fufie: I, for one, will stick to "frail human bodies" Why? There are enless possiblitys out of body eihrul: if I could just upload my mind to a new body I could live on.. lar1: I will not be de-humanized [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net -:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.208] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from clarke.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. Okay, how much of my crazed rant did you get? Fufie: *if* Kaufmann: Quite a bit eihrul: think of it.. finally beating death (quote) I say that, ultimately, what makes us human is our minds. By uploading ourselves to better bodies and brains, we will become /post-human/... but not at all inhuman in the sense that you might conceive it. It's the ultimate means of directed evolution. did you get that before? I mean "get" in the "receive" sense kauf: we got it :) not in the "understand" sense Kaufmann: I read it. I do not see it that way. For when do we retain our mind, yet loose our soul? Fufie: nah, just post-poning it... Fufie: to my knowledge, we don't have indestructable hardware :) kauf: it's heresy according to the church though.. poor Teilhard was sent to china for less Downix: Whats a soul to you? I don't care... I sold my soul a long time ago. :) lar1: The Ka and Ba which transcend the frail body and continues onward till the new host is prepared. eihrul: pah.. chrome last for a long time :) Kaufmann: i've bought a few souls myself. hehe Fufie: not indefinitely Downix: What religion is that? Sounds like Egypt lar1: one of the many pre-Judean faiths out there. TO beexact, Setula eihrul: nothing last forever.. but chrome lasts pretty long Kaufmann: it is Egypt. Kaufmann: I phrased it in Egyptian sayings to make sence Downix: Are you of Egyptian decent? 04:50pm Fufie, it seems that an orthodox rabbi, when confronted with the hypothesis of uploading, postulated that cyber-rabbis would be much more adept at interpreting the Torah lar1: No, I am a mutt Fufie: then again, its better off that some people die soon... lar1: I used the Egyptian sayings due to their more complete way of putting things Downix: Ok kaufie: rabbis don't like fancy interpretations :p eihrul: that's cruel.. :( Yeah. One way or the other, Father Darwin has his way. Fufie: well, if i can so long as my chrome holds out, so can any politician! just look at the last century.. things actually happened.. all the time.. new things.. new inventions.. new ideas.. what will the next centuries bring? it's sad to miss out that opportunity.. Fufie: just think about it man.... -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-131-38.s38.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes I myself want to live forever. I mean, I've considered the prospect of dying, and honestly, it doesn't seem very interesting. Especially when there's A Better Way. death is probably not too fun but then again, life is also a drag Think about it... how many of you here would like to have the time to learn what ever you please? I for one would love to study _everything_ lar, me too But since time is limited I must go with my first choice until A Better Way arrivesw lar1: do you really? even if you know that the more you study, the closer to madness you come..? [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Nicholas (This nick is reserved by another user) Fufie: How so? do you know anyone who has studied for more than ten years who aren't "eccentric"? :) I don't know anyone that has studies for more the ten years. I have studied for more than ten years, and I'm definitely a tad above "eccentric". But, if you could live forever, you could study at your leisure anyone who has really studied something.. down to the core of it, and beyond.. that does something to you :-/ 05:00pm there is no free lunch or salvation in studies or understanding On the thought of uploading, society would radically change... no more sex for example... you may laugh, but things like this play a _major_ role in modern society Well, that's the fun part - cybergods are inherently reflective. We humans can't directly modify the way that our brains operate; this isn't necessarily the case with respect to cyber-brains. Don't like your thoughts? Stop thinking them! [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Nicholas (This nick is reserved by another user) to get true AI tho we have to build-in the instincts they should have So you'd like to see how life is from a dog's standpoint... just alter a few I/O connections, and you're game! what is true AI? kaufie: but if you change to a dog.. can you change back? kaufie: if you can change back, would you be a dog? Downix, _we_ don't have to do anything. Programming strong AI top-down is probably not feasible. It's got to be done bottom-up. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: varley.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) uh huh Fufie, well, if you change yourself _completely_, then I guess you _as a dog_ will no longer be able to turn yourself back... but I'm just talking about a sensory simulation + a few changed cortical circuitry. if god created the world, then we are all AIs kaufie: how shallow that feeling of dogginess would be [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: devlin.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from asimov.openprojects.net. just as shallow as most sensory delights we thrive in today Fare, that's an interesting thought! * Downix/#tunes runs away as Kaufmann tries to hump his leg Fufie, I'm not sure that's true. ack.. these thoughts almost makes me want to head downstairs and get Augustine to read on the bed [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: asimov.openprojects.net zheng.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) When you start talking about this kind of thing, just about everything is only marginally better than pure speculation. * AlonzoTG/#tunes flames uploaders; routinely. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com zheng.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from zheng.openprojects.net. Al, what? [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net zheng.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. i heard Al, was this program supposed to do anything, at all? De civiate Dei hehe LOL The funny thing is, it was me (I?) who said that People who want to upload their braine into computer simulations. THEY MUST DIE. al: all of us must die anyway :) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Nicholas (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. Fufie, not me. As I said before, I have no intention of dying whatsoever. 05:10pm I plan for a sad death, Keats style :) and then have a nice stone which states "Here lies one whose name is writ in water" :) Al, I don't want to upload my brain into a computer simulation. I want to upload my consciousness and identity into a custom-built nano-assembled neural network with a godlike artificial body. Kaufmann: Think of you age currently, 30 or so? This tech is 50-100 years off... 50+30=80 mabye... 100+30=130, I don't think so... [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) * Downix/#tunes plugs a computer virus into Kaufmann, so he turns into the most derabged,neurotic and insane men alive (aka a Republican) * Fufie/#tunes goes to bed... afk Hehehe Downix! lar, why not? There are already people who have lived to be 130 (well, almost). And this in the ultra-dangerous 20th century. I do think it's reasonable for me to expect to be up and running by then. LOL Downix Kaufmann: Yes, but not too many have lived to that age... what makes you sure _you_ will lar, medicine. Kaufmann: Medicine is cannot solve everything Of course, I can never be sure. Heck, for all I know, a truck just might happen to run over me when I go off to work tomorrow. Kaufmann: True * Downix/#tunes will honk the horn before he hits, don't worry Kaufmann kaufman: you've read my mind. =P But considering that the current lifespan estimate for rich people in many developed countries is already nearing or beyond 80, I don't see why we can't add 50 more years to that in a whole century. Anyway, I think there's a chance that even 50 years off may be too pessimistic a prediction. yeah om Kaufmann: Yes, I thoguht of a 'window' effect, since advances are made so fast, the lifespan could increse many times before uploading becomes nessacerry/doable. I did a horrible job phrasing that! kauf: you on transhuman@logrus.org? 05:20pm Alonzo, IIRC yes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Nicholas (This nick is reserved by another user) So you get me when I start spewing on that list... What is the name field on your mail client set to? yeah, but it doesn't exactly happen very frequently :) come again? Have you posted to the transhuamn list reciently? no waitaminnit transhuman@logrus.org is which one? Ah yes, it's not the one I'm thinking about well... =\ -:- water [water@tnt-10-156.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey water hey [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) Hey water anyone have good tunes news? What's up? working on 100 different things at once for arrow/tunes tunes hasn't been co-opted by Microsoft! hm. i guess that makes me the one responsible for bringing good news to tunes I thought you had declared that Tunes E Arrow! lol it does I'm sorry, I don't have a very good extended-ASCII charset or rather, it is Or a decent mathematical typesetting program available So? kauf: what os? Downix: the single player mode is a series of arena matches with different bots, they get harder with each level hm air: Hmm... could be interesting. I'm pondering downloading the demo ok, does anyone have a tunes-related issue to contribute to? Well, what will tunes use to try and solve the hardware abstration issue? water, it's not as though I don't know where to find one. I just can't be bothered to download it. kauf: get a linux distro 05:30pm hw abstraction issue? i have a font that has greek letter and some mathematical symbols from nuprl s/letter/letters/ the arrow solution for hw is to treat hw (both real and abstract) as a state-machine, directly represented as a graph water, no thanks (wrt the linux distro) there must be a lightweight TeX package for your os somewhere water, lightweight? That's fresh! Everything I've found has been in the 20-40 meg range. downix: make sense? water: Yes k water: My own Eddas solution abstracted the hardware itself, RISC'd it, so such a setup would have better performance, would it not? i have no idea what eddas is water: My hardware design oh how does it Risc-ify the hw model? microcode? :) eww microcode == evil! hehe hehe but seriously ? Well, I studied the functions needed by all areas of thehardware, then figured out how to execute them with the best solution to be controlled by the compiler wait a sec... should i be signing an NDA right now? :) No oh oh * lar1/#tunes thinks NDAs would be a good idea for downix I just gave you the theory behind the SPARC CPU which is all I did, just applied it elsewhere so, what's the analogue of "load/store" for your architecture? water: To talk about that would require an NDA ah hm... darn it i have no fax system set up :) hehe water, so how's Arrow going? well, i should go pretty soon ok kauf: like i said, a 100 things at once ? downix: the efficiency brought by your hw's simple "risc-iish" design would suit arrow kauf: you want a list? * Downix/#tunes nods yeah anyway, i'm working on arrow papers 05:40pm "intro" -> "philosophy" the new intro will be vacant until i get the more technical aspects finished ah yes, I forgot to mention it! I'm working on a design for an Usenet-inspired distributed information exchange network i'm working with KLyx right now for formatting more abstract, of course? is the name "Infonet" taken? i think so anyway i'll bbl tonight -:- water [water@tnt-10-156.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] well yes, of course... but it's something else Anyone notice that most corporate and product sites haven't yet bothered to remove their Y2K-related sections? Maybe they're planning on keeping them until the end of the year * Downix/#tunes nods lol SPARC == evil. MIPS is better. hehe MIPS is better register window == evil. but MIPS and SPARC both stemmed from the same problem nobody likes the register window. :) register window == memory eater, C-calls only, context switch hell, etc now if only i could find a used mips as cheap as a used sparc eihrul: get a used ARM. ARM's are nice Fare: i wanted to find a used sgi to play with though... anyway, I think the Infonet thing is turning out quite well and to think I came up with it just this morning [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed gxam (GHOST command used by gxam_) I don't have code yet ok Kaufmann: dont u come up w/ a new project every morning? hcf, yeah, pretty much [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com norton.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) * Fare/#Tunes is angry against Digital and Intel for basically killing the ARM OTOH, I came up with the Orthogonal IDE yesterday at noon yesterday, and by 4 o'clock I had something like 300 lines of code. * Fare/#Tunes is angry against proprietary licensing which also kept the ARM in limited audience (albeit large volume) K: what's Orthogonal IDE? btw, are disks ATAPI, like CDROMs, or are they not? If they support SCSI buffer management, then IDE doesn't suck at all. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net norton.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from norton.openprojects.net. * Fare/#Tunes has little hope, but would like a definitive answer [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net norton.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:49pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] 05:50pm abi: no, orthogonal is at http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/orth/home.html okay, hcf. I think that Infonet might be a first step in the direction of a complete design for iOP/iOM -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp168.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes Basically, all that is missing from OrthoGONE is the code for the instructions themselves. Besides that, the framework is pretty much complete. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) Unfortunately, it uses Term::Screen, so I can't run it at home why do I feel like I'm having a monologue? [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: devlin.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from hogan.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- NetSplit: clarke.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:52pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [clarke.openprojects.net] [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: fontana.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn156.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from merril.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: fontana.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed Wildthing (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from verne.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no]) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-22.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes a ha! found some [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from clarke.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.208] has joined #tunes (rp) I think that Infonet might be a first step in the direction of a complete design for iOP/iOM (rp) And basically, all that is missing from OrthoGONE is the code for the instructions themselves. Besides that, the framework is pretty much complete. (rp) Unfortunately, it uses Term::Screen, so I can't run it at home Unless, of course, I go ahead and port the Term modules to MacPerl as well. ...anyone? >>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.208] requested PING 947123812 from #tunes uh, ok ah om lookie, it's Interjective Moment! Anyone interested in the OrthoGONE thing? <_ruiner_> not I <_ruiner_> sorry okie 06:00pm Kaufmann: I am not familar w/ that language -:- jacoplane [jacoplane@ip191.geneva25.pub-ip.ch.psi.net] has joined #tunes lar, lemme find you an URL k -:- jacoplane [jacoplane@ip191.geneva25.pub-ip.ch.psi.net] has left #tunes [] http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/orth/home.html thanks 06:20pm well, I'm off. * lar1/#tunes looks at source to a 99 bottles of beer on the wall song and passes out LOL -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd / as leaves fall on still waters / she is here no more.) 06:30pm BRB -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- lar1 [lar1@dialup-209.244.106.37.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes back Trying out xchat... sems neato so far cool I am using this box so I can possibly get Raven work done :) hehe air: You here? [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. 06:40pm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net services1.openprojects.net adding GLINE for *@*.cas-kit.golden.net, expiring at 947108137: Your domain is temporarily restricted from access. For more information, please email support@openprojects.net. Damnit I hate the unix file sturcture! /usr /var /tmp /proc! HMMPH! ya air: How can I make bfe display my structures? [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kenny (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) I like the /proc filesystem... atg: do you like the structure of /usr?? but I wish the FUCKING SHITHEADED TEXT EDITORS would let me play with it easier without trying to look up the addresses of the people who invented them... [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d140.narrowgate.net]) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kenny (This nick is reserved by another user) Anyone have GUNZIP? 06:50pm [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kenny (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kenny (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kenny (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed kenny (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. -:- lar1 is now known as lar_wating -:- lar_wating is now known as lar_eating <_ruiner_> we hate love, we love hate I vant the intercal docs. Please send them unziped. lar_eating: did u edit .bferc? [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) abi: intercal is at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/intercal/ that is a factoid abi'd best forget... om I CANNOT HANDLE GZIP!!! GZIP MUST DIE!!! -:- ult [pope@user-38lcn5v.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes 07:10pm [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- lar_eating is now known as lar1 [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) air: What is the syntax for .bferc? [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from clarke.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. air: and how do I find what my font path is? (rh 6) hmm 07:50pm -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp168.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- lar1 is now known as lar_away [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed e-t (GHOST command used by eliot) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. -:- carlito [sabanmr@137.28.142.244] has joined #tunes [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net norton.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com norton.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from norton.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net norton.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from lu.openprojects.net. [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed ZerK (This nick is reserved by another user) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from clarke.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: sterling.openprojects.net lu.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) -:- SignOff lar_away: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar_away[dialup-209.244.106.37.SanJose1.Level3.net]) -:- eric [eric@216-53-142ppp248.mpinet.net] has joined #tunes eric: hi hello there ole 08:30pm what's this room all about? where are you at -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System k [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com norton.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: sterling.openprojects.net norton.openprojects.net -:- eric [eric@216-53-142ppp248.mpinet.net] has left #tunes [] [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from norton.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net norton.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. guess he didn't like us 08:40pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) what's not to like? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us230.javanet.com] has joined #tunes so, anyone awake? * Downix/#tunes is about to start up the Quake 2 server here for some action * Fare/#Tunes goes to sleep I'm awake me no have quake2 hehe damn sorry buddy it's ok doing some html right now * Downix/#tunes nods 08:50pm if it's not playing games, its working on computers....ah the life of a computer nerd Or in my case designing one Downix: this game kicks ass I want! I want! the gfx are wicked ooo, how much space does it eat up? 25 or 500+ anyone know of a free internet role-playing game? ow! that's good? carlito: telnet lostsouls.org 3000 that's 1/4 of my HD lol...with gfx? do the 25meg minimal forgot to mention that * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. i've yet to see a single graphical game air: What's the difference? the difference is probably for me that could in any way match even the lamest of muds Hey, text-based is good. All in the imagination eihrul: World FOrge is working on one my imagination sucks =) my imagination runs on 8-bit graphics lol minimal leaves the music, movies and data files on the cd Downix: shrug, world forge still won't be half as detailed as a single 1D mud it would have been nice to have a medium install that put the data on the hdd eihrul: I know. I'm pondering modifying the Quake engine into a real interactive LARP-like game hmm...if only there was a way to combine the mud with gfx...hmm mud sucks Downix: what to do about going outdoors? :) virtual reality baby eihrul: You don't. hehe eihrul: u need to get a fast comp and q3 om How far are you from your quake 1 machine? air: I don't get into muds either air: nope * ult/#Tunes is working on a 3d graphical mud. ok muds are cooler... period... but respect the ones that do get into muds that is carlito: try lost souls ult: what language are you doing it in? ok, off now -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: good to the last drop!) you might like it :P eihrul: give me the skinny on it heavily hack'n'slash orientated... lots of blood lots of amputated appendages this damn bitch is pissing me off carlito: Lisp and C ult: whish I could help, but I don't have a Lisp. Don't even know anyone that does =) And the clossest I could come is c++ air: which bitch? eihrul: q3 has more blood carlito: hunter air: in quake or in mIRC? carlito: q3 arena that's what I thought air: you haven't seen lost souls... eihrul: I'm afraid if I really get into a mud, I'd never leave my room eihrul: u havent seen q3 lol you can't rip off a person's head or leg in q3, and then wield it and start beating your opponent whom you stole the appendage from to death with it carlito: apt-get install clisp not to mention that lost souls actually has a plot... *gasp* Fare: but who would teach me to use it? so does q3 and very detailed prose carlito: read the FAQ for comp.lang.lisp 09:00pm air: gah... go play q3 on brix :P air, eihrul : i sense this battle could go on for hours carlito: ya think :) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-131-38.s38.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) Fare: thanks Fare: q3 or muds? * Fare/#Tunes gotta go -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) as soon as I get a moment I'll learn lisp see, fare likes muds eihrul: I guess he answered your question =) I think he wanted to stay out of this one eihrul: Lost souls has a plot? brb ult: well, sort of :) atleast more than quake... the ai in q3 sucks. the damn bots wont chase u into a room if they see u hide in the opening cuz they know u will blow their head off so they run around and try to get u from behind quakes plot is to frag everything that isnt u back -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp416.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes air: That's not a plot, that's a goal. At least q3a has a more viable 'plot' than Unreal Tournament though. How the fuck do you explain everyone coming back to life in UT? =) in q3a it makes sense...badass alien dudes clone ya. -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-131-38.s38.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes heh om? 09:10pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) well 09:20pm -:- washort [washort@d136.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes * ult/#Tunes ponders abi, dynamic static typing? ult: i haven't a clue doh i could swear Fare had a page on it... "dynamic static typing"? yah hmm, most ppl seem to think dynamic and static typing are opposites. :) no its like...static types...but you can change the static type =) heh. -:- cakes [user1572@dhcp142.84.lvcm.com] has joined #tunes -:- cakes [user1572@dhcp142.84.lvcm.com] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-226.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes water! hcf! what a surprise :) -:- SignOff carlito: #TUNES (Leaving) 09:50pm huh? did i scare him? <_ruiner_> nope well, i still have the major development problem that my modem won't play with linux, so i can't do serious arrow work and be online at the same time :( hcf: did you have something to harp on me about? :) i harp? no, but you probably should, with the way i promise papers and end up delving into lots of unforseen research oh cool, the winCE port of squeak just got a major overhaul so long as the paper gets written before WW3... heh actually, it's paper*s* oh yah you talked about that the other day [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed njs (This nick is reserved by another user) water: well, either stop promising or deliver hm and have someone, in person, fix ur modem situation hmmm.. i could call on the local lug lugs make house calls? water: how far r u from tril? no, but i'd bet someone would be willing to help ~90 miles 10:00pm well, i'm downloading some tools so i can work on research and writing while i'm online i.e. good old ghostview etc -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp416.wi.centurytel.net] has left #tunes [] gv > ghostview anyone here want to discuss issues? for win32? oh, perhaps not then exactly * eihrul/#tunes is pondering how to implement lisp garbage collection from within the lisp. hey guys... check out alt.binaries.e-book if you like arthur c. clarke, william gibson, or douglas adams' books eih: there's a page on re-writing at the maude site that covers writing gc's in hlls k not quite the same as pure lisp, but still applicable -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (snooze time.) (darn it, i really miss kde/linux functionality) page or paper? oh. paper 10:10pm * water/#tunes checks to make sure which paper/ that's what i'm checking darn it, it's not there. i'll look at the rewriting home page hmm... geez can't find it? not yet water: need help? ;) hcf: yes :) heh. yeah, re-writing as it applies to gc there's only one paper i've heard of that covers it i've got a local copy somewhere 10:20pm http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~dmjones/hbp/tcs/Authors/banachr.html hm. not sure that's the same one but it's not online, so it doesn't matter yes water: how does squeak handle it? the gc ? * eihrul/#tunes nods. hm... i'll look since it dumps out its own code i'm assuming gc code has to be written in squeak garbage collection should be handled in hardware. ;-) yes, it is wash: heh oh hey, the new squeak has modular code libraries now washort: unfortunately, it's not... eihrul: *nod*. :) eih: do you have a copy of squeak in any version? * eihrul/#tunes nods. 2.7 was released today/ ? i'm looking through browser under ObjectMemory there are gc methods under squeak-interpreter, of course 10:30pm find class, mmm heh whoa "whoa"? they've cleaned up the imsage segments/ environments stuff it appears to actually do nifty things now :) really? (or maybe not, i just got thrown to a debugger...) i've been staying away from the alpha code, but i should probably check this out heh i've been loading alpha code continously :) ah do you post often? (not in the same image that I do Real Coding in, though) water: No. i don't post to the squeak list (being an alpha-pilot) any Common Lisp implementations for squeak? :) why not? perhaps could save me some trouble... : ) water: i don't ahve anything to say yet :) there *is* a lisp for squeak where at/ check the gatech swiki water: i'm writing an instant messaging client for Squeak. under goodies, i think water: ahve you heard of the Jabber project? cool. post it no yeah. it's nowhere near usable though well, i've been working on adapting it for arrow since it has a perfectly good parser water: it's an open architecture IM system, based on a multiserver design similar to email... the protocol is XML, and it's more than IM, it's a generic way to move XML around... cool actually, very cool... when will it run in squeak? :) the long-term goal (for me) is to be able to move Squeak objects around using jabber water: the server? probably never. :) water: it's in C at the moment sigh... this summer i'm going to try to reimplement it in Erlang water: what's the lisp called? lisp.st :) its umm, not here :) serioudly, it's a tiny lisp just search the swiki *search* [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: forward.openprojects.net moore.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) water: ppl are writing all kinds of clients for this thing, there's a set of python and perl libs, 2 win32 clients, a COM lib, and a Tcl and a GTK one... http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/394 10:40pm but i figured we needed one in a real language. ;) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: irc.linux.com moore.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from moore.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net moore.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. eihrul: get that url? ftp://ftp.u-aizu.ac.jp/pub/lang/smalltalk/misc/goodies/VisualWorks2.5/Lisp.st i think that's not the squeak version oh well darn it, linux keeps putting .* files in my vfat heh :) it screws up explorer washort: its not quite tiny... :) er water... -rw-r--r-- 1 lee lee 171573 Jun 28 1998 Lisp.st what about it? its pretty big for being tiny... just look at it it has a byte-code compiler built in as well as a ui it just doesn't support many lisp "goodies" brb hmm, it locked up squeak use it in mvc, not morphic rtfm 10:50pm the swiki page explains how to use it i read the page :) i just didn't read the first line is all... oh cool. ghostview works now 11:00pm * water/#tunes reads up on some developments in model theory -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) wow. the squeak image looks a bit different now 11:10pm -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (Ping timeout for washort[d136.narrowgate.net]) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) abi: gc is garbage collection, see http://www.cs.ukc.ac.uk/people/staff/rej/gc.html wow. "the" gc page yeah, in tunes-rev-pl, under Implementational topics, Resource management oh hadn't noticed that one before should probly be more prominent well, it doesn't seem to cover the topics well, imo on the other hand, 1600 papers ain't bad :) [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net break: irc.linux.com moore.openprojects.net (Ping timeout) wait a sec... that rewriting/gc paper was an excerpt from a conference 11:30pm Concurrent Garbage Collection for Concurrent Rewriting? darn it, that doesn't seem to help locate it no, the concurrency paper was different the particular paper described how rewriting formed a framework for specifying all kind sof gc strategies [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Net junction: forward.openprojects.net moore.openprojects.net [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net Completed net.burst from moore.openprojects.net. [openprojects]!carter.openprojects.net moore.openprojects.net acknowledged end of net.burst. recall any words from the abstract? hm not really it's probably just 'hidden' in the maude papers section i'v used alta w/ host:maude and havnt had any luck i wouldn't worry about it it's no earth-shaking paper, although it was still interesting [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed njs (This nick is reserved by another user) 11:40pm hm... 13 main squeak modules now 11:50pm [openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed njs (This nick is reserved by another user) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0106 IRC log ended Thu Jan 6 00:00:01 2000