IRC log started Thu Jan  6 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0106
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<water> ping
01:50am
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<water> anyone awake?
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<Fufie> yes
<water> care to discuss prog langs?
<Fufie> sure
<water> i was looking over beta, gbeta, smalltalk, self, clos, tunes
<water> i forget, what's your particular project?
<Fufie> I have several projects, loosely tunes related, but usually language related
<water> (also i read the great squeak news from oopsla 99)
<water> hm
<Fufie> gbeta?
<water> its a generalization of beta
<Fufie> ah, ok
<water> it's a student's phd project
<Fufie> (though it was GNU beta or something like that)
<water> well, it is GPL
<Fufie> good.. because there should be a free implementation of beta
<water> well, it's not very fast at all
04:40am
<water> the nice thing is that it extends beta's dynamic typing quite a bit
<Fufie> gbeta?
<water> yes
<Fufie> have you got an url?
<water> oh yeah
<water> abi: gbeta is a free implementation of a generalized version of beta at http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~eernst/gbeta/index.html
<water> there's also the metaBETA project
<Fufie> have you got an url for that one as well? :)
<water> yeah
<Fufie> and I'll update Languages.phtml with it right away
<water> btw, just use cetus-links for proglangs
<water> well, gbeta is already on tunes
<Fufie> just an ftp-link
<water> and metabeta is at the bottom of the page, i think
<Fufie> -n
<water> oh
<Fufie> no metabeta
<water> k
<water> i'll mail it to tunes-review then
<water> and tell abi
<Fufie> ok.. I'll commit the minor modification for gbeta then
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<water> abi: metabeta is a meta-level architecture for allowing dynamic typing in beta, or at http://www.daimi.au.dk/~beta/Mli/mli.html
<water> abi: beta is an advanced object-oriented language that integrates objects and functions into patterns, or at http://www.daimi.au.dk/~beta/
<water> it's interesting to me because the smalltalk family can't do the same thing, really, without a complicated mop
<water> on the other hand, the clos mop is too low-level and insecure, etc
<Fufie> the clos mop is supposed to be low-level I guess
<water> hm
04:50am
<water> well, this kind of thinking is what got me working on arrows in the first place
<water> sort of a very-high-level mop
<Fufie> have commited Languages.phtml
<water> cool, thanks
<water> since i'm running 'doze right now, i don't have all of my cool tools to use
<Fufie> arrows is in in my reading-list queue :)
<water> anyway, it's interesting that gbeta treats inheritance as a type-constraint for dynamic purposes
<water> btw, have you read agt?
<water> it's a good read, imo, even though it's mostly the meta-theory of logic
<Fufie> agt?
<abi> i heard agt was Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/
<water> thank you, abi :)
<abi> sure thing water
<Fufie> it is also on my reading-list :-/
<water> the premise has to do with platonic psychology
<water> he claims that the proper view for formal reasoning is not to treat symbols as 'tangible' objects, but to treat formal theories of them as such
<water> s/such/tangible objects
<water> heh. i bet that i can fill up your reading queue rather quickly ;)
<water> anyway, most of the paper walks through various meta-mathematical theories and studies their properties in a new light
<Fufie> luckily my reading queue is implemented as a linked list and can grow :-)
<water> lol
<water> just be careful not to swap any pointers around before the next gc generation
<water> :)
<Fufie> there is a lot of things I want to read and a lot of things I want to hack together.. too often the last list is chosen..
05:00am
<water> that's fine
<water> i feel useless very often because i read too much, and have pretty much brought my coding practice to a standstill
<Fufie> you named a long list of interesting languages first which you had checked.. how is self? 
<water> well, self finally got ported to the mac just a month ago, albeit without half of the usual optimizations
<water> so, people can actually use it now
<Fufie> are you a mac user?
<water> but the vm technology in self allowed 50% speed of optimmized c
<water> no
<Fufie> 50% of optimised c isn't too bad.. it's more than satisfactory in most cases
<water> it's terrific when you consider that it's a benchmark of a dynamic population of bytecode objects
<water> the authors wrote several papers just on the compiler technology they put into the vm
<Fufie> self is prototype-based, no?
<water> but the nicest thing about self is that it's oo without classes, and treats variables (internal state) as inheritable behavior
<water> right, and it allows multiple dynamic inheritance
<water> which "self: the power of simplicity" explains as being one of the major improvements in the efficiency of self code
<Fufie> dynamic inheritance isn't too difficult in a prototype-based language
<water> both in size and speed
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<water> right, and the self object model is a very simple object-with-slots view
<Fufie> I wrote a prototype-based oo-system for a hypermedia-system once.. worked very well
<water> yeah i made one based on a toy language that had it's own high-level gui
<water> i mean, i wrote the high-level gui in the language
<Fufie> in the hypermedia-system I now writes I map objects to the clos system instead
<water> even m$'s com is prototype-based
<Fufie> -s
<water> hm
<water> k
05:10am
<water> well, my biggest concern right now is what kind of mop system a system would need to get as expressive as tunes
<Fufie> difficult to say.. one must experiment
<water> i disagree
<water> sort of
<Fufie> a trade-off between an aop-model and a dynamic clos-mop is probably what is needed
<water> yes, but there are no existing dynamic aop systems
<water> i mean, creating aspects is difficult
<water> s/creating/factoring
<water> it's not something you can do on the fly
<Fufie> I know.. I err all the time in my thesis..
<water> i'm pretty sure that tunes will eventuall have a group of mop's which are inconsistent overall
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<Fufie> apart from the obvious aspects, memoisation, before/after methods, sewing together constructs with special behaviour it is difficult
<Fufie> s/,/;/
<water> m
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* water/#tunes nods
<water> ever studied model theory?
<Fufie> too little
<water> well, even the basic ideas are enough
<water> you have the model's signature, then the realtions and functions defined over the constants and variables in the sig
<Fufie> I am probably more a hacker than a theoretician.. 
<water> k
<water> well, my goal for my system is not "hack"-centric
<Fufie> one question though, how is model-theory different from category-theory?
<water> er
<Fufie> or is model-theory a subset of category theory?
<water> they're in roughly the same domain
<Fufie> I remember that we worked with models in a course on category theory
<water> they apply to almost every formal theory
<Fufie> ahh
<water> but the internal picture is fairly different
<water> model theory is almost entirely logic-based
<Fufie> ok
<water> ct, as you know, just describes types and morphisms
<Fufie> yes
05:20am
<Fufie> what was it you wanted to discuss initially? (we got carried away slightly)
<water> my problem with model theory is that i'm trying to make something where one(?) model's structure can affect another model's logic (inference calculus)
<water> hm
<water> not sure exactly
<water> i mostly just needed to bounce ideas
<water> does that statement i just made make sense?
<water> about my problem with mt?
<Fufie> yes
<water> k
<Fufie> irc is however a poor substitute for a blackboard :(
<water> indeed
<water> if only muswiki were up and running :)
<Fufie> chalk and blackboards solve most problems :)
<water> actually, there is a good blackboard program
<water> muswiki essentially *is* a blackboard
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<water_> whoa
<Fufie> but it's not working yet?
<water_> muswiki? no, not yet
<water_> but i know that there are some simple blackboard programs out there
<Fufie> I wrote such a system once where one had a talk-channel and a canvas to draw on
* water_/#tunes checks
<water_> this would be very good for #tunes
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<Fufie> my small system was a crude prototype or "proof of concept/hackability" :)
<water> sure
<water> so was mine
<Fufie> I realised that I had to make a drawing program to make it usable and that wasn't that fun :-)
<water> hehe
<Fufie> boxes, text and free-hand and some colours I made though
<water> that's often good enough
<water> muswiki, i believe, will be excellent for such things
<water> mostly because of the morphic system
05:30am
* Fufie/#tunes must rewrite his component language for his front-end today.. :(
<Fufie> (the hypermedia system/thesis)
<water> darn it, my explorer windows are getting onery
<water> today?
<Fufie> I think one day should be enough
<water> here's a screenshot of muswiki:
<water> http://www.cc.gatech.edu/projects/squeakers/10.html
<Fufie> it is lisp after all
<water> oh
<water> heh. don't overowrk yourself :)
<Fufie> or embedded in lisp to be accurate.. I can use the lisp-reader
<water> what do you think of that screenshot?
<Fufie> smalltalk?
<abi> smalltalk is mostly crap, except for Squeak, that is good.
<water> heh
<water> yes
<Fufie> it looks nice enough
<water> the idea is that you send the morph data around, vice images
<water> so it's high-level and low-bandwidth
<Fufie> in my old prototype I sent diffs
<water> when both sides have the same class modules, the encoding is extremely dense, but the big idea they're working on is interactive programming and debugging
<Fufie> muswiki seems to scale better though as everything is objects
<water> yeah, that's the idea
<Fufie> and not pixels
<water> and we don't have to write new muswiki code for every class
<Fufie> squeak seems to have improved considerably since I tested it two years ago
<water> yeah, people add quite a lot every few weeks or so
<Fufie> ans the squeakers seem to be quite good at community-building
<Fufie> -d+s
<water> there's now an entire suite of card games, etc for instance
<Fufie> -s+d
<water> i found out yesterday that disney has a multimedia 3-d game somewhere built on squeak
05:40am
<water> at some interactive display or something
<Fufie> too little time and too many fun languages/environments to learn
<water> and they seem to intend to do a lot more with it
<water> heh
<water> squeak can only get better... today they released the modularized code image
<water> 13 orthogonal modules
<water> keep in mind that i follow squeak very closely
<water> btw, have you dealt with maude at all?
<Fufie> maude?
<abi> it has been said that maude is a reflective rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/
<Fufie> no
<Fufie> a former norwegian queen was called maud though ;)
<water> it's really interesting for it's reflective capabilities
<Fufie> (downloading 'squeak)
<water> it turns out that re-writing logic covers concurrency schemes and real-time issues, as well as gc schemes
<water> i mean, in a straightforward manner, with clean code
<Fufie> any of the maude papers you would recommend to a beginner?
<water> the intro/manual, i guess
<water> it's equational rewrite, so it takes some getting used to
<Fufie> hey.. one of the local guys at the institute works on maude..
<water> oh? cool
<Fufie> hmm
<water> btw, my system for models under arrow winds up looking like a multi-graph that "folds on itself"
<Fufie> as said.. too little time.. too many languages to learn
<water> the tunesers know it as my ontology system idea
<water> hehe
<water> yes true
<Fufie> maybe I'll drop by Peter and have him explain Maude to me :)
<water> sounds like a very good idea
<water> i wish i knew people in reall life who understood even half of this stuff
05:50am
<Fufie> most of the theoretician at my institute, like Peter, rarely if ever programs anything but three line examples of hello world
<Fufie> I am too pragmatic.. I try to learn the theory to be able to use it to make nicer and more elegant systems
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<water> i hate m$ windows
<water> kde never does crap like that
<Fufie> (send water 'sympathy)
<Fufie> s/kde/gnome/  :-)
<water> whatever
<water> i use both
<water> i find kde to be more coherent and useful is all
<Fufie> there doesn't seem to be much mailing-list traffic on the maude-lists
<water> the funny thing is that i wouldn't have to boot into windows unless my modem stopped working when i upgraded my linux distro
06:00am
<water> which it obviously did :)
<Fufie> ouch
<Fufie> I had troubles with pppd on rh6.1 when trying to use rh5.2 setup on it
<water> that's funny, i just went from rh5.1 to mandrake 6.5
<water> during which the modem stopped playing
<Fufie> does the modem work with e.g minicom?
<water> nope
<Fufie> my problems were pppd related
<water> mine doesn't respond at all, even if i enable pnp in bios
<water> and it's us robotics
<Fufie> *shrug*  I have wireless connection to the net.. T1 capability roughly
<water> have you seen the cover of the latest linux journal?
<Fufie> no..
<water> wow
<water> i'm waiting for my cable company to give me the fateful call in a week or two
06:10am
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* water/#tunes hums to some rockin' ambient electronica
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<water> heh
06:40am
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<water> the only whiteboards i can find are in java ;P
07:30am
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<Kaufmann> Foo!
<Kaufmann> Aw damn, Tril's not here
<Fare> Gakuk
<Kaufmann> right back atcha
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<Kaufmann> Hrrrm
<Kaufmann> I don't see why it'll take so much longer for Apple to release OSX
08:20am
<Kaufmann> I can't wait to start reverse-engineering Aqua
<Fufie> isn't it sad that so much energy and money go into an attempt to make Macs prettier than Windows?
<Fufie> is there any new functionality in this new OS X?
<Kaufmann> hell yeah
<Kaufmann> you obviously haven't been reading /.
<Fufie> maybe I should read /. then
<Kaufmann> :)
<Kaufmann> Well, OSX may Not Quite be Tunes, but it brings together the best of NeXTStep and the best of BSD... *and* it has a gorgeous GUI
<Fufie> it looks pretty.. and in a few months other wms would look the same
<Kaufmann> ha
<Kaufmann> _maybe_ when a "stable" release of Berlin shows up
<Fufie> pah
08:30am
<Kaufmann> The "pretty GUI" people seem to care only about creating absurdly wild n' crazy eye-candy while keeping the worst of Windows
<Kaufmann> "pretty GUI people" =~ E/Gnome/GTK guys
<Fufie> mash.. bbl
<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> Right now, I'm writing a stack-based command-line shell to run under MacPerl
<Kaufmann> Am I nuts or what/
<Kaufmann> ?
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* Kaufmann/#tunes ducks with the speed of... uh, of a speeding locomotive. Wait, that's not right.
08:40am
<Kaufmann> BTW, Al, nice rant
* zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug
08:50am
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<Fufie> back
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09:00am
<hcf> Kaufmann: devised a new project yet this morning?
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<AlonzoTG> thanks.
<AlonzoTG> =)
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09:10am
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<hcf> abi: gbeta is a generalization of beta at http://www.daimi.au.dk/~eernst/gbeta/
<abi> ...but gbeta is a free implementation of a generalized version of beta at http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~eernst/gbeta/index.html...
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10:00am
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<hcf> abi: tos is Tcl Object System at http://cedric.cnam.fr/personne/pawlak/tos.html
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<smoke> tos is also the os that drives the atari 1040 st and was written by dec
10:10am
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> anyone here?
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<Fare> Kaufie: OSX?
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<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> mu
<AlonzoTG> my sister put oil on the brakes of her car.
<AlonzoTG> to stop them from squeaking.
<AlonzoTG> Fare: what is the official response to my poste late last night?
<AlonzoTG> post that is.
<Fare> on the list?
<AlonzoTG> yes
* Fare/#Tunes is seriously lagging
<AlonzoTG> okay, no problem.
<AlonzoTG> I am eager to read responses.
10:30am
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<Fare> ls
11:10am
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<hcf> abi: MuSwiki is a Swiki-like system which uses Morphic objects instead of HTML at http://www.cc.gatech.edu/projects/squeakers/10.html
<hcf> abi: Swiki is Wiki in Squeak, a CoWeb: web-based collaborative space, based on WikiWiki at http://www.cc.gatech.edu/projects/squeakers/14.html
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12:00pm
* zarq/#tunes is away: Merlin
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at Fare
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<smkl> hmm. i'll apply membership for TUNES
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01:20pm
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<Fufie> :)
<smkl> i want to get smkl@tunes.org email address
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01:30pm
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<Fare> ATG: you got your answer
<Fare> smkl: what, not member yet?
02:00pm
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<smoke> does the tunes project need an Eyecandy Division? :)
<washort> smoke: i doubt it. :)
<smoke> damn :)
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02:50pm
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<AlonzoTG> my shell crashed. =\
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03:30pm
<_BC> Hi all
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<smoke> have we all signed the linux hardware petition at http://www.libranet.com/petition.html ? :)
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<Fufie> smoke: what is it about?
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03:40pm
<smoke> fufie; about more hardware support for linux
<smoke> fufie; it's to be sent to hardware companies; they hope to get 2,000,000 electronic signatures, according to freshmeat.net
<Fufie> that's nice
<Fufie> hereby signed
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<smoke> what number were you?
<Fufie> Your signature is number 00013977
* smoke/#tunes forgot his number. somewhere around 13,000
<smoke> aha
<smoke> i think they'll have a hard time getting to 2,000,000
03:50pm
<Fufie> I can make a script :)
<smoke> :)
<Fufie> don't use scanf.. use fgets
<Fufie> #wrong
<smoke> ?
<Fufie> it was for another channel
<smoke> :)
04:00pm
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<air> is gnu du part of some other program?
<air> there is no du on gnu.org
<Fufie> binutils?
<Fare> disk-utils?
<Fufie> fileutils 
<Fare> # dpkg -S =du   ==>  fileutils: /usr/bin/du
<air> there is no diskutils
<Fufie> [stig@palomba Review]$ rpm -qf which du
<Fufie> fileutils-3.16-10
<air> thanks fare
<Fare> yes, dpkg -S sucks as far as speed matters
<Fare> the dpkg people seem not quite able to handle the concept of "database".
04:30pm
<Fare> happily, the automated upgrade tools are unequalled by anything I saw on the rpm side.
<AlonzoTG> =\
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<timfanss> i look for tux pitcs
<air> wow, fileutils has the biggest configure i have seen
<Fare> meant to be very portable
<smoke> air; tried glibc ? :)
<Fare> albeit using lots of system-specific interfaces to access disk&files
<Fare> (stat, ouch)
<air> smoke: i have glibc 2.2
<smoke> air; that configure is shorter?
* smoke/#tunes is always scared when compiling glibc
<air> smoke: i didnt compile it
<Fare> ATG: you have your answer
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at Fare
<smoke> air: ah :)
<AlonzoTG> that's for suggesting I read more books.
<AlonzoTG> =\
* smoke/#tunes is off for some sleep
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<AlonzoTG> They probably cost $400 and are out of print to b00t.
<AlonzoTG> =\
<Fare> ATG: they're probably in their nth reprint, and cost a lot, but they are among books that are well worth their price.
<Fare> not the kind of book you use as toilet paper after you've read ten pages of it.
04:40pm
<AlonzoTG> yeah. I have a growing collection of those. =((((
<AlonzoTG> Okay I guess I mite as well get both and a stack of others on topology after my current stack is on my shelf or flushed.
<AlonzoTG> =\
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<Tril> smkl
<hcf> hmm
<Fare> Tril!
<hcf> http://lists.tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma/tunes seemingly mishandles y2k
<Tril> oh, you just added yourself. I was hoping someone volunteered to maintain that page :)
<hcf> jan 2000 should be at the top, not the bottom
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<smkl> Tril: did it update correctly?
* Fare/#Tunes metaprograms a silly script to mirror wanted parts of debian
<Tril> smkl: it looks ok to me...
<Tril> Fare : have you seen the ftpmirror scripts they provide
<Fare> Tril: nope. Where are they?
<Tril> Fare: basically just one rsync command with various --exclude added
<Fare> :(
* Fare/#Tunes is building a huge exclude regex for lftp mirror
<Tril> Fare: look in ~debian on bespin, there are two slightly different versions "anonftpsync" and "ftpsync*"
04:50pm
<Tril> Fare: rght now bespin isnt mirroring debian but I'll start again soon. I actually use "~debian/mydsync" from cron when I mirror it
<Fare> Tril: thanks
<Fare> s/myd/ftp/ ?
<Tril> no
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<Fare> done
<Fare> smkl: you're now officially smkl@tunes.org
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<Fufie> smkl: congrats :)
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<smkl> hehe
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
<AlonzoTG> om
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<iepos> hmmm... anyone here?
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<Fufie> yes
<iepos> oh
<iepos> hello
<iepos> hmm, do you code C?
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<Fufie> when forced
<iepos> heh heh
<iepos> well... i have a little question then
<iepos> that you might be able to answer
<iepos> what is a good way (in UNIX) to get the contents of a directory...
<iepos> an array of filenames or something like it... ?
06:00pm
<Fufie> use the DIRENT struct with opendir() and family
* Fare/#Tunes is back for a moment
<iepos> ah
<iepos> thanks
<Fufie> I think I have some convenient code for that here
<Fufie> two sec
<Fare> iepos: the convenient way is to use perl, or zsh, or scsh, or some other language than C
<iepos> heh heh
<iepos> yes
<iepos> i'm not too familiar with those
<Fufie> can't find it right now.. on another system
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<iepos> that's okay
<iepos> i think i can figure it out from the manpages
<Fufie> there is an example in the gnu libc manual I think
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<iepos> fare: i've been thinking about nondeterministic systems a little bit
<iepos> i think they could be more interesting than i'd thought ... ( :-) )
<Fare> iepos: think logic programming, too
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<iepos> a bit ago I realized that using an inverter it is possible to derive an equality function ...
<iepos> (with no other primitives than combinators)
<carlito> *is lost
<carlito> oops
<iepos> hi
<carlito> hi
<eihrul> Fare: do you know where i can find any information on lisp garbage collectors written in lisp?
<Fare> an inverter is a *very* powerful primitive
<iepos> yes
<Fare> eihrul: in /dev/null ?
<Fare> eihrul: no, I exaggerate
<eihrul> don't you always?
<iepos> also, one could make a sort of "definite article" function that, given a single-membered set, yields its element
<Fare> eihrul: in CMUCL sources and internal docs, if you can figure out
<Fare> CMUCL is written mostly in LISP.
<eihrul> thanks
<Fare> eih: what kind of information are you looking at?
<Fufie> eih: harlequin's gc heap?
<Fare> s/at/for/
<Fufie> they have lots of docs
<Fare> eihrul: Languages.html#GC might be a good starting point
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<Fare> also see the gclist
06:10pm
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<eihrul> Fare: just playing around with making a small semi-reflective lisp...
<iepos> humm...
<iepos> lisp...
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<Fare> eih: ok
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<iepos> fare: do you know of any interesting inference rules/axioms for systems based on an inverter ?
<Fare> I haven't thought about it much.
<iepos> me neither
<iepos> it makes me sleepy, when i try thinking about it
<iepos> :-)
<Fare> it really looks like logic programming, tho
<Fare> after all, inverting relations is precisely what matching is about in logic programs
<iepos> by "logic programming", do you mean programming based on relations?
<iepos> oops
<iepos> yes
<iepos> i guess
<Fare> (except for the single-mindedness of the search strategy)
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<iepos> hm
<Fare> by logic programming, I mean prolog, mercury, oz, goedel, etc
<iepos> yeah
* Fufie/#tunes goes to bed.. afk
<iepos> good nite
<carlito> night fufie
<iepos> fare: earlier you mentioned the problem of having an inverter when there are functions not one-to-one ...
<iepos> i'm thinking of making a system, in that case, that has possibly multiple denotations for expressions
<iepos> non-determinism, i guess it might be called then
<iepos> a sentence would then be acceptable iff all of its denotations were true
<iepos> (in a system based on combinators, "x.y.x" and "x.y.y" make nice models for truth and falsity, i think)
06:20pm
<iepos> hmmm...
<iepos> i'll have to think about it some more, i guess...
<Fare> if Rf(x,y) is the relation that holds wwhen y=f(x), then, when y is bound, the query Rf(x,y) will invert f and find a matching x.
<iepos> hmmmm
<iepos> i remember in your non-determinism paper (i think it was), there was an interesting problem... that normal evaluation (of lambda expressions) leads to bad problems
<iepos> on a similar line, a system with non-determinism can't have "X = X" as an axiom schema or it would be inconsistent...
<Fare> it's not a "problem". It's just a restatement of the fundamental turing theorem
<Fare> X = X CAN be an axiom schema, anywhere.
<iepos> well...
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<iepos> if your non-deterministic system has "1 U 2 = 1 U 2" ...
<Fare> Any powerful enough system, however, will be incomplete or equivalently will have non-terminating sentences.
<iepos> then you can get "1 = 2"
<Fare> iepos: stop smoking that carpet
<iepos> (where "U" is that ambiguity operator)
<iepos> ?
<iepos> i am not smoking carpet
<iepos> are you saying that it is fine to have "X = X", then ?
<Fare> is your = working on *values* or on *expressions* ?
<iepos> expressions
<iepos> i meant you can't have "X = X" for all expressions "X"
<iepos> but you can if "X" is known to have only one denotation
<Fare> ok, then, if == is on values, you have (E = F) = ( \->E == \->F )
<iepos> hmm, what do you mean by "\->" ?
<Fare> if you don't get confused between expressions and values, there's no contradiction
<Fare> iepos: lambda w/o argument
<iepos> ok
<iepos> right
06:30pm
<iepos> but "X = X" is a bad axiom schema (if "X" is unrestrained)... 
<iepos> however...
<iepos> "(\x. x=x) Y" is okay, for unrestrained "Y"
<iepos> i think
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<iepos> the beta-reduction is a good thing to restrain... if a lambda refers to its parameter more than one time
<iepos> the parameter must be insured to only have one denotation, in that case...
<Fare> no. X == X is bad. X = X is good.
<Fare> let's use =e and =v instead
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<iepos> ok
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<Fare> iepos: if you're still there, it's another proof my article wasn't so well written
<iepos> i'm still here
<iepos> i feel lost
<iepos> my mind is foggy this evening... 
<iepos> heh
<iepos> well... it seems clear that "(1 U 2) = (1 U 2)" is bad, at least, don't you agree?
<iepos> meaning that it would make a bad theorem of a system
<iepos> since it would probably lead to "1 = 2"
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<Fare> (1 U 2) =v (1 U 2) is bad. (1 U 2) =e (1 U 2) is good.
<iepos> yes
<Fare> although (1 U 2) =v (1 U 2) *might* be true, sometimes.
06:40pm
<Fare> so that using may-testing, it appears as "(may be) true"
<iepos> yes, it is an ambiguous sentence, then
<iepos> I was thinking of a system that only accepted sentences that were true in all their denotations, but maybe not...
<iepos> That way there could be an unrestrained "f (x U y)" |- "f x", "f y"
<Fare> in my RlambdaND (and master's thesis), a sentence is "true" iff it _may_ terminate.
<iepos> (btw, I think "U" can be constructed from an inverter)
<iepos> that is interesting...
<iepos> a broad definition
<iepos> it would include something like "\x.x", wouldn't it?
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<iepos> which is an expression with a normal form (that is what you mean by terminate,  right?)
<Fare> although the canonical truth value (true) will not only terminate, but will also yield *every* possible result as part of its value set.
<Fare> yup, any expression that has a normal form couts as "true".
<iepos> wait
<Fare> expressions that don't have any normal form count as "false"
<iepos> hmm
<Fare> so that both #f and #t would count as "true".
<iepos> but, how can you ever be sure that an expression doesn't have a normal form
<iepos> ?
<iepos> (that's a tough problem)
<iepos> i guess that is the point
<iepos> hmm
<Fare> although the first is a true _symbol_ or falsehood, and the latter is a true _symbol_ or truth
<Fare> 1) u're only interested in things that are true
<Fare> 2) among these things, the sentences that say that another sentence is false
<iepos> oh
<iepos> ah
<iepos> that would work... if you just have a negation
<Fare> like, you're not really interested in the fact that phi is false; but the fact that (not phi) is true is interesting.
<iepos> but, not sure how to construct a negation in such a system though
<Fare> of course, you have sentences such that both phi and (not phi) are false.
<iepos> a negation that given an abnormal expression yields a normal one and vice versa
<Fare> (goedel sentences)
<Fare> iepos: you should read my master's thesis :)
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<iepos> oh, the one in french? 
<Fare> yup
<iepos> heh
<iepos> hm
<iepos> not a real fast french reader
<carlito> iepos: I know that one
<iepos> carlito, which one?
<carlito> if p, then q.  and if p is false, it is generally agreed that q could be anything
<carlito> not the same thing that you were talking about ....
<carlito> but I thought i'd throw my 2 cents in
<carlito> =)
<iepos> heh heh
<iepos> thanks
<carlito> welcome
<Fare> "P -> false" is a possible definition for "not P"
<iepos> yes, i guess if "p" is false, then you can derive that "if p, then q", so the sentence doesn't give you anymore info on q
<iepos> yes
<iepos> it is
<carlito> k
<iepos> if you like "->" as a primitive
<carlito> yeah.
<carlito> that schooling did pay off for something
<Fare> then you ask, "how to define ->" ?
<iepos> if you take "\xy.x" and "\xy.y" for truth and falsity...
06:50pm
<iepos> then "->" can be derived
<Fare> no, you can't, at least, not while taking truth as termination
<iepos> that's right
<Fare> however, you can take them as _symbols_ of truth and of falsity
<iepos> truth as termination is something i haven't really thought of
<Fare> only some times, you won't be able to establish falsity
<carlito> you two go on, I'll be doing some html for a little while
<Fare> iepos: it's something I've not seen anyone publish about (before me). But I'm sure some people have thought about it
* carlito/#tunes completely lost now
<Fare> it's latent in so many works in logic
<iepos> hmm, well truth-as-termination sounds does seem interesting...
<iepos> although i still like "\xy.x" and "\xy.y" :-|
<iepos> i need to try to come up with a concrete system
<iepos> are there any particular interesting things you hope to gain from using truth-as-termination ?
<Fare> again, at the *meta* level, truth of the *base* level may be represented as \xy.x and falsehood at the *base* level may be represented as \xy.y
<Fare> that's what "symbols" are about!
<iepos> yes
<iepos> but...
<iepos> that
<iepos> doesn't
<iepos> answer my question
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<Fare> truth-as-termination was the natural way I came up with to embed logic in a call-by-value system
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<iepos> ah
<iepos> the natural way
<iepos> well
<ult> blegh
<iepos> that is a very good reason
<iepos> very similar to the reason i like "\xy.x" and "\xy.y".
<Fare> s/embed $1 in $2/extend $2 with $1/
<Fare> iepos: \xy.x and \xy.y are natural ways to express *symbols* of truth and falsehood
<iepos> yes, but they could be thought of as the truth and falsehood values themselves
<Fare> only if you confuse the symbols with the very things
<Fare> meta-level confusion is EVIL.
<Fare> it's the kind of stuff OO crooks do.
<iepos> i am not confusing symbols with their meanings...
<iepos> (at least i don't think i am )
<iepos> heh
<Fare> yup, and don't introduce that confusion in your calculus.
07:00pm
<ult> darn OO crooks
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<iepos> well... i suppose i'll just defend myself by saying that "\xy.x" and "\xy.y" (which hereafter will be called K and CK) aren't necessarily truth and falsity (but i'll use them as if they are, anyway)
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<iepos> "truth" and "falsity" in the ordinary senses are rather vague concepts
<iepos>  i don't really have to formally identity my "K" with "truth" (in the vague sense) to make a useful system
<iepos> s/identity/identify
<Fare> indeed they only arethe generic way to encode two alternatives
<iepos> in fact, it might not be necessary to supply a formal interpretation to expressions at all in a system
<Fare> in a reflective system, it might help, tho
<iepos> yes, and such elegant derivations of other logical operators arise from them...
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<iepos> for instance, "xyK" means "x -> y"
<iepos> "xKy" means "x | y"
<ult> Fare: Has anything ever rivaled the Lisp machines of olden times?
<iepos> "xy(CK)" means "x & y"
<Fare> I don't follow your latter derivations...
<iepos> hmm
<Fare> ult: Lisp machines of newer times?
<iepos> the first one... "xyK" ...
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<ult> Fare: olden times
<Fare> ult: in newen times, they were faster
<iepos> If "x" is "K" (true), then the expression reduces to "y", which is what would be expected for implication
<ult> Back when my grandpa walked 10 miles both ways uphill in the blaznig heat and freezing cold -at the same time-.
<Fare> ult: but the community was already dead
<iepos> on the other hand, if "x" is "CK" (false), then expression reduces to "K" (the expression is true, which is what would be expected if an implication from a false proposition)
<iepos> KyK = y
<iepos> CKyK = K
* Fare/#Tunes is lost
<iepos> 8(
<iepos> ok
<iepos> i'll try again
<Fare> oh, you're talking about boolean calculus
<carlito> lol
<iepos> hmmm
<Fare> but I don't want just booleans. I want logic.
<iepos> well
<Fare> higher-order propositions.
<iepos> you want logic...
<iepos> what do you mean, "higher-order propositions"?
<iepos> give
<iepos> an example of something
<iepos> you want the system to do?
<iepos> .
<Fare> in intuitionnistic logic, not everything can be reduced to booleans
<iepos> indeed
<iepos> and "xyK" might not necessary reduce to K or CK
<Fare> so your nice boolean expressions are of no help
<iepos> if x or y are non-propositions then it may be something entirely
<iepos> yes i suppose
<Fare> well, at the base level, anyway
<iepos> my system couldn't reason upon "propositions" that were neither true nor false
<iepos> maybe it could though... i don't even have a system
<iepos> though
<iepos> so it's kind of silly of me to refer to "my system"
07:10pm
* Fare/#Tunes learns the joys of CD ripping
<iepos> heh
<ult> Go Fare!
<iepos> anyway
<ult> Join the masses!
<iepos> i'm getting sleepy... ...
<iepos> sometime i'm going to construct a concrete system, and stop babbling
<iepos> heh he
<carlito> good luck
<iepos> heh
<iepos> well
<iepos> not really concrete
<iepos> i'm not going to implement 
<iepos> why implement
<iepos> no need
<iepos> well, nice talking to you Fare and carlito...
<carlito> see ya
<AlonzoTG> om
<iepos> bwye
-:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<ult> b;ah
<ult> Fare will appreciate this: 
<ult> Learning French is trivial: the word for horse is cheval, and everything else
<ult> follows in the same way.
<ult>                 -- Alan J. Perlis
<carlito> that's awesome
<air> damnit, i was about to beat this level in nightmare mode and win98 crashed
<carlito> what game?
<carlito> wolf?
<air> q3
<carlito> nevermind
07:20pm
<carlito> anyone want to have some fun?
<air> ya do u have q3?
<carlito> no no no, online here on mIRC
<carlito> =)
<air> i dont have mirc
* ult/#tunes notes air should get his ass kicked by^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hplay hyrlik.
<air> i kicked hyrlik's ass
<ult> Did you?
<air> yes
<carlito> what program are you using?
<air> carlito: bitchX
<carlito> nice!
<air> carlito: and irc != mirc
* Fare/#Tunes deep-sixes ult
<Fare> (with lag)
<carlito> thanks
<carlito> there's these chicks on another channel that I feel like harrassing
<carlito> incase anyone wanted to join
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<air> damn i gotta go buy a 20gig or something bigger than 4.3 for my game machine. this sucks waiting forever for each level to load from cd
<carlito> lol
<carlito> FareWell just joined the channel!
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc6ar.dialup.mindspring.com])
<Fare> air: level?
<carlito> anyone got any pics I could send these chicks!! =) 
<Fare> what chicks?
<ult_> carlito: give Ricky Martin a GIMP moustache.
<carlito> nice!
<carlito> I'm playing these girls on a diff channel
<carlito> want in?
<Fare> why not
<Fare> carlito: send a picture of linus
<carlito> lol!!!!!!!!
<carlito> #casual
-:- ult_ is now known as ult
07:30pm
<carlito> ult, are you talking to these chicks?
<ult> sort of
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<carlito> lol
<carlito> I must say I'm dissapointed in the level of harrasment
<Fare> who's harassing whom?
07:40pm
<carlito> I was goofing with these girls..you know typ...I'm 15f looking for a good time
<Fare> I don't know the type, but I'm willing to leanr
<carlito> #casual
<ult> carlito: You mean guys.
<carlito> what?
<Fare> carlito: on irc, nobody knows you're a dog
<carlito> lol
<carlito> tell him straight ult
<carlito> ult: was I REALLY harrassing?
<carlito> not even
<ult> Fare: That or they are over the hill, and ugly.
<Fare> "over the hill"? teach me english.
<carlito> wow you guys are giving me a bad rep
<ult> Fare: Over 40 years old.
<carlito> Fare: I was doing no wrong
<ult> Fare: (about). over the hill generally refers to the position in ones life where the hard nitty-gritty clawing to get to a decent career position is over, and one is just waiting to retire with a decent job and easy family life.
<Fare> ok. Will have to remember that
<carlito> Fare: where you from?
* ult/#tunes ponders
<ult> Fare is from the land of food and wine.
* carlito/#tunes ponders too
<carlito> they have food and wine over there?
<ult> (Well, French food is good...)
* carlito/#tunes nods
<ult> carlito: That's where food and wine basically came from =P
* carlito/#tunes shakes head
<carlito> I don't think wine came from france...did it?
<ult> does it matter?
<Fare> *good* wine comes from France.
<Fare> That's a big difference.
<ult> *cheap* wine comes from California. =)
<Fare> :)
<carlito> what about Italy?
<ult> That's what matters.
<ult> Italy? They got vermouth.
<carlito> are we having an intellectual conv here on this chat?
* carlito/#tunes feels dizzy
<Fare> carlito: too much wine?
<carlito> doubt it
07:50pm
<carlito> wow now I'm not harrasing this chick at all...but she's is puter dumb
<carlito> I'm done tutoring for tonight, I'm out of that chat room
08:00pm
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<water> 'lo
<ult> hiya
<water> i'm going to upload the new papers to tunes.org in a few minutes
<carlito> high water!
<carlito> =)
* eihrul/#tunes claps.
* carlito/#tunes bows
<Downix> HELP!  I can't get X to work!
<water> i've got the TeX source with me, so i can edit them while online
* Downix/#tunes feels like an idiot, X will not compile/work
<water> heh
<water> compile x?
<water> are you crazy?
<hcf> water: icuc, http://www.phil.mq.edu.au/isl/
<Downix> Well, I can't install it and have it workeither
<hcf> water: seen my review@ posts?
<water> c00l!
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08:20pm
<water> i saw one post from you
<hcf> the 2nd was sent a few hours ago
<water> holy cow! look at the latest tunes posting!
<water> this guy even references "vicious circles"!
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* water/#tunes does a little dance.
<water> today is a very good day
<ult> heh
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<water> hcf: nice links. thanks
<hcf> np
* Downix/#tunes does not mind compiling X, but I wantit to compile, dammit
<water> downix: you're looking on the wrong channel for that kind of help, dude
<Downix> true
* ult/#tunes compiles X in his sleep
<Downix> ok, onto #linpeople
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<ult> Downix: whats wrong?
<Downix> Ok... how come Lynx hjas a mind of it's own now?
* water/#tunes clicks on "pre-order" for the book, substructural logics
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<Downix> I do a scroll down and it hits a link instead
<Downix> Ok, this ISP sucks
<water> damn it, no ftp client
<water> (for win32)
<hcf> water: that link was found cuz the author plugged it on sci.logic
<water> ok
<hcf> water: so *hint* how about u post some msgs?
<water> yeah, i guess i really should post a couple
08:30pm
<water> hold on, all, for the papers. i have to get a decent ftp client
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<eihrul> no console ftp?
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<water> dunno
<eihrul> start->run->ftp
<water> wow
<water> ack! my window manager died!
<water> sigh...
<water> brb... rebooting
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<water> whew. saved from rebooting
08:40pm
<water> oh cool. the abstract interpretation paper is on my tunes account
<water> i thought i lost it
<hcf> water: usenet-wise are there no threads u would post to?
<water> i haven't gotten around to it
<water> keep in mind i spend most of my time reading papers
<ult>     #!/usr/local/bin/perl -s-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-in-3-lines-PERL
<ult>     ($k,$n)=@ARGV;$m=unpack(H.$w,$m."\0"x$w),$_=`echo "16do$w 2+4Oi0$d*-^1[d2%
<ult>     Sa2/d0<X+d*La1=z\U$n%0]SX$k"[$m*]\EszlXx++p|dc`,s/^.|\W//g,print pack('H*'
<ult>     ,$_)while read(STDIN,$m,($w=2*$d-1+length($n||die"$0 [-d] k n\n")&~1)/2)
* eihrul/#tunes thinks ult needs a better modem.
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<water> heh
<hcf> water: just saying, along w/ origating msgs, it'd be good to join threads, since the readership is already captured
<water> ok, the outline for the new paper is up and an updated intro is up
<water> yeah, but i usually don't have/make time
<eihrul> water: on ~water/?
<water> yes
<hcf> water: read papers faster ;)
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<water> i need to update this home page
<water> oh well
<water> i'll edit it on my pda :)
08:50pm
<water> anyway, i want comments from you guys about individual sections
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* carlito/#tunes is tired of looking at html code tonight!
<water> no no, the papers not the home page
<water> hopefully you guys have ps viewers or printers, otherwise just read the .lyx text for the new paper
<water> since i don't have a pdf for it yet
<eihrul> ps2pdf
<water> i'll do that when i get ofline
<eihrul> ArrowPhilosophy.pdf :)
<carlito> night all
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<carlito> hcf: thnx for the BOOT!
<hcf> carlito: anytime
<carlito> hcf: I was being sarcastic
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<water> btw, arrowphilosophy=arrow intro (prime)
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<water> which is mostly going to get trimmed down in favor of the technical paper
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<eihrul> well, its the only paper there that isn't filled with foo's...
<water> wb
<eihrul> so its the only one i'm capable of reading right now :)
<water> well, the outline for now is what i'm offering
<lostsoul> huh?
09:00pm
<water> i have a bunch of small text files to substitute for the foos
<water> lostsoul=carlito?
<lostsoul> yes
<water> wb
<lostsoul> trying to get in a room
<lostsoul> someone keeps giving me the boot
<lostsoul> hcf that is
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<hcf> lostsoul: its not a room, lamer
<lostsoul> channel lamer
<lostsoul> whatever
<water> why is hcf giving you the boot?
* lostsoul/#tunes no idea
<water> hcf: what's he talking about?
[openprojects]Foreign OperKill: NickServ killed skibum (This nick is reserved by another user)
<lostsoul> I was trying to say goodnight to a buddy, "lar1" and he booted me before I could tell him
<lostsoul> hcf: if you got a prob, why don't you talk to me about it?
<water> so, just how much of a lamer *are* you? :)
<lostsoul> =)
<lostsoul> a pretty big one I guess...hcf won't even respond
<water> hcf is usually the silent type, though. i'd bet he's at work half the time that he's on irc
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> Hi, water.
<water> hi atg
<lostsoul> water: you're prob right
<AlonzoTG> Looks like I signed myself up for a lot of reading with that last post I made to the tunes list.
<water> atg: and you *should* read some more
<water> atg: geb and drugs tend to make for some overconfident assertions from people who don't do the real reading
<AlonzoTG> Anyone here have quake1.06 and is willing to spend about a buck on LD?
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<lostsoul> night all
-:- lostsoul is now known as carlito
<water> i think this arrowTechnical outline will work perfectly for the arrow spec
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<water> it should be really simple to relate the papers i've read into this format
<water> unfortunately, the paper won't be complete until the tech spec is complete, of course
* ult/#tunes ponders ATG
09:10pm
<water> ult: not worth it
<water> brb..
* ult/#tunes needs something good to read.
<water> abi: tell ult about agt
<ult> water, where did you put your papers?
<water> in my home directory
<water> www.tunes.org/~water/
<water> the squeak code is there too
<water> anyway, i'll bbiaf
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<air> ok my sleep() code is written, what are the chances it will work on the first test?
<eihrul> nil
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<AlonzoTG> om
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<air> ugh i hate those damn short jumps that are out of range
09:20pm
<eihrul> so use long jumps...
<eihrul> aka near jumps
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<air> ya i know but they take up more space so i try to use short until they go out of range
<air> damn code gpf'd when it wakes the thread
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<core> people hi
<Downix> hey
* eihrul/#tunes thinks air needs to learn about the advent of the compiler.
<Downix> Back in FR now?
<eihrul> quick, someone call fox mulder!
<core> wow, lots of cool people here
<core> hey Downix, eihrul, air :)
<Downix> thaks
<eihrul> we've got some really strange phenomenon going on here...
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<core> eihrul: nope, first core sighting of the month :)
<water> wow. core
<core> downix: yup, i came back last night, and i'm still jetlagged so i'm up at 6:20 AM :)
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<Downix> core: It's not 6:20am,it's midnight, perfect time to be awake
<core> water! :O :O
<water> hehe
<core> downix: it's 6:29 AM here, very early for me, but i kept waking up every hour, and decided i'd toy with code instead of rolling over in my bed :)
<water> i've almost got a wroking tech spec
<water> although the paper for it is empty so far
<ult> 'lo core.
<Downix> core:  ok.  Right now I'm working on the hardware spec for my system
<core> water: hehe.. well, i have a postscript printer at work, waiting for it :)
<core> ult :) hi :)
<water> k :)
<water> so where have you been, then?
<core> this printer is quite cool actually, i can ftp documents to it; it's probably common, but i never saw that before
<water> is it a xerox?
<core> water: working insanely.. suntech is growing, so i have to 1) keep driving development of clementine 2) integrate new people 3) give time to my girlfriend 4) idle (not much time for that) and 5) irc :)
<core> water: no, kyocera or somesuch
<water> core: cool
<Downix> hmm
<core> water: and jenny got her engagement ring :-)
<water> heh
* Downix/#tunes has been dealing with the sound mixing channels now
<core> downix: cool.. sorted out those sound system issues?
<core> ahh. gmta
* ult/#tunes wonders how Clem's coming along?
<Downix> core:  For the most part, now doing the hard part.  Trying to speed up the mixing pipes
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<core> ult: well, i personally haven't touched it since dec 28 (probably the last time we talked ?), i was in holidays
<core> took a week off w/ Jen in Phoenix, and gave her the engagement ring too. :)
<ult> core: Yes. Just a gentle reminder ;)
<core> ult: it still runs an http server, plays heretic, and if the people at suntech worked as expected, it should boot off flash memory now too :)
<core> downix: analog or digital mixing?
<core> the v2_os guy starts monday, he should fill some holes as well.
<Downix> core:  Pure digital
<Downix> There is no analog setup until the final output to speakers
<water> wow. the ecoop99 paper linked on the mlist is really nice
<ult> odd
09:30pm
<ult> core: How does it run Heretic? Is the heretic binary unix-like or dos-like?
<core> downix: cool.. harder to do in hardware than amiga-like analog mixing, but probably cheaper on D/A converters :)
<core> ult: i ported it from the linux version
<ult> core: Is the video just direct access to the VGA hardware circumventing any memory protection?
<Downix> core:  That's the idea. 
<core> ult: i wrote a graphics server for clementine (very quickly), and mapped the necessary OS functions to the right clem interfaces, and it more or less immediately worked (after i fixed a few issues in the OS :)
<ult> core: Or does Clem actually have a VGA driver that handles things like that?
<core> ult: clementine has all GGI drivers, and a vesa 2.0 driver
* ult/#tunes nods
<core> downix: cool cool.. hope your hardware will at least do 32-bit additions of all the samples before cropping them down back to 16 bits :)
<ult> core: Now you just need to get it out the door ;)
<core> ult: so yeah it has actual SVGA drivers.. games can still remap the framebuffer and use it if allowed tho
<Downix> core:  64-bit actually
<core> ult: yeah, i know :) (better is the enemy of best, is that how you say it in English? :)
<core> downix: ah, even better :-)
<ult> 64bit samples? Overkill?
* water/#tunes is afk
<core> ult: not samples, just accumulator
<eihrul> core: don't know if there's a direct english equivalent...
<Downix> ult:  That's to allow up to 4 16-bit samles to be be mixed before bit-reduction
<ult> I see.
<core> hmm, more like, better is the enemy of good, or something. like you have to stop improving it at some point :)
* Downix/#tunes nods to core
<ult> Downix: sounds efficient
<Downix> ult: I hope it's efficient enough to make it worthwhile for computer buyers
<core> downix: actually you only need 18 bits for adding 4 16-bit samples
* ult/#tunes nudges eihrul in Downix's direction.
<eihrul> ult: eh?
<abi> somebody said eh was he a drunkard?
<eihrul> abi: is your name ult?
<ult> eihrul:RISC Lisp machine =)
<core> 4*65536 = 262144 = 2^18
<Downix> core:  Well, I'm trying to figureout how many bits I need.  I'm unfamiliar with digital mixing.  Taking a crash course
<core> downix: that's what most laserdisc/dvd etc equipment hs
<core> s/hs/has/
<eihrul> ult: aka Leak
<Downix> core:  I just imposeda maximum limit of 64-bits
<core> downix: it's just an addition.. so you only need channels * 65536 :)
<core> downix: 64 bits is huge. you can mix a ton of channels. that's cool
* Downix/#tunes nods,ok
<ult> eihrul: Maybe we can talk Downix into giving us a few boards =)
<Downix> lol
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<eihrul> ult: in erm, 2 years :)
<core> now you might have some 'virtual' channels for some FX, so it's good to have some room :)
* Downix/#tunes nods
<ult> eihrul: hmm =)
<Downix> The sound system is tiny, so the extra bit depth won't hurt the system too much
<core> downix: if it doesn't cost you any transistors, go for 64 bits, else 32 bits will allow for 65536 channels :)
<ult> I'd just like to get my hands on a nice programmable MIPS demo board.
<ult> That or a cheap SGI.
<Downix> core:  It costs transistors, but nothing to increase the die size (I'm already about 3 million transistors UNDER the makeit or break it point)
<core> ult: indy's must be extremely cheap these days. check news://comp.sgi.marketplace or something
<core> downix: neat :) but you still haven't allocated transistors to 3D support, flash memory and cdrom interface, etc though, right?
<water> yes! yes! yes!
<Downix> core: I have for 3D, flash, and CD-ROM is through the firewire/usb
<water> sorry
<ult> core: Yes, I've ancient ones for under 100$
09:40pm
<water> got a little excited there over reading this paper
<core> ult: good enough
<core> water: hehe.. excitement is fine. i wish i had some sometimes :)
<core> (i don't get excited even at things i should, that is :)
<ult> water is the only person I've ever met who gets off on CS papers ;)
<water> it's jsut that i now have an excellent basis for part of my spec
<core> downix: ahh, usb, right :)
<core> water: i'll open the firewall so you can directly print it to kyocera.suntech.fr :-)
<water> well, i absolutely need arrow to exist to start my dream company
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<Downix> core:  Hey, saves us mice, HD, CD-ROM, etc. controllers
<water> that's when i start to make the *really* interesting stuff
<core> downix: true.. no need to reinvent too many wheels at once
<water> ;)
<Downix> core:  Right
<core> water: seems like there are a lot of entrepreneurs here :)
* water/#tunes goes afk again
<Downix> yup
<core> i'm excited a little though, next week we will close down version 0.2 of clementine (i downsell things quite, 0.2 should be like 0.8 but oh well)
* Downix/#tunes nods
* Downix/#tunes is upsellinga bit, he'll admit
<Downix> Well, I feel like I'm upselling
* Downix/#tunes won't be happy till it's working
<core> Downix: well, salespeople at suntech do that (actually, they don't upsell, they just say the truth :) .. i usually downsell myself
<core> downix: i know the feeling
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<Downix> core:  So, 64-bits for mixing channels into 5 output digital lines should not be over-the-top?
<core> downix: 64 bits for every of the 5 channels you mean?
<Downix> core: Right
<core> downix: well, that allows for 2^48 digital channels on every output channel :)
<Downix> let's see programmers max those out
<core> hehe
* Downix/#tunes gryns
<Downix> THat is PER cycle I'd note
<core> programmers no, but artists (graphists or musicians) will :)
<Downix> if you buffered, streamed, and re-ran everything, you could do even better
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<core> Downix: I think it is a reasonable assumption that 5 * 2^48 channels are enough for the next 10 years :)
09:50pm
<Downix> core: I hope
<water> yeah right
<core> water? :)
<water> just you wait
<Downix> hehe
<water> :)
<Downix> there's no way to make programmers happy
<core> water: well, true, that's what they said of cd-rom and now of dvd :)
* Downix/#tunes nods
<water> besides, there's serio i/o architectures to consider in the future
<water> s/serio/serial
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<core> well, i suppose you could map every sound source in a game to a digital channel and let the hardware mix all of that painlessly
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Downix> water: Ihave considered them through a basic local bus port on the chip
<water> k
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<core> downix: mmm, exciting H/W you're designing.
<Downix> core:  Scary, in my eyes. 8)
<core> Downix: the strange moment will be when other people start using it
<Downix> core:  Very true
<core> Downix: i still haven't competely got used to it for clementine
<core> s/compe/comple/
* Downix/#tunes nods
<core> it's still strange to me to see other people using my tools and work and adding to my ideas. neat but strange :)
<Downix> Unlike hardware, you can just compile Clementine and have people useit
* Downix/#tunes smiles
<core> downix: true. well, you can run your HW in a simulator for many months before first silicon tho, and distribute that :)
<Downix> core:  true
* Downix/#tunes needs the spec done first tho
<core> i started linux in the armulator today, first step before the next step of World Domination that starts jan 25 :)
<core> Downix: that'll be helpful :) and i saw you're going to use lisp for the simulator, that's a good choice imho. will cut a lot of time.
<AlonzoTG> the extremely powerfull hardware abstraction on my OS will allow you to change EVERYTHING between versions and software will still run. =)
<ult> eh
<ult> What's happening jan25?
<water> atg: yeah whatever
<core> ult: clementine core port to ARM :)
<ult> core: Gee =)
<Downix> core:  Thank you (I'm growing to like LISP a lot the more I use it)
<ult> core: When m68k?
10:00pm
<core> ult: in parallel of the "up" growth (ie, applications, etc) that's happening
<ult> ColdFire is nice, powerful, and -cheap-.
<ult> Downix: What Lisp?
<abi> Lisp is ((simply) (perfect))
<core> ult: i don't know yet, probably Q2 2000. it'll be easy once the first one (arm) is done.
<Downix> ult: Common
<core> downix: i like it, don't have time to practice it much, but when i see what one of my coworkers does with emacs.. geeze :-)
<ult> Downix: Which implementation?
<ult> Downix: Your writing your emulator in Lisp?
<core> ult: well, the #1 customer for coldfire is in the same city as we are :-)
<core> (the OS development teams anyway)
<ult> core: Mot loves France =)
<core> ult: well, they love palm computing at least :)
<Downix> ult: Herliquins and yes
<ult> core: I would imagine so =0
<ult> downix: How much is a license for HL?
<ult> (LiquidLisp or LispWorks)?
<Downix> ult: Not sure,I downloaded the free personal one
<ult> Downix: Oh, ok.
<core> Downix: will you have to write the MIPS and USB emulations too, or is there some code already available for that?
<ult> Downix: I was under the impression that as a company you may have purchased it ;)
<Downix> core: Everything I'mafraid
<Downix> ult: Not yet.
<core> downix: ouch :) that'll be a lot of work. i hope you'll have people helping to do that :)
<Downix> core:  Afraid not.
<Downix> heavy are my shoulders
<core> Downix: they will feel so much lighter with VC and coworkers :)
<Downix> core:  Agreed
<core> (well, not really lighter, just weight trading i guess)
<core> trading development weight for meeting-objectives and keeping-people-happy-and-working weight :)
* Downix/#tunes is feeling less and less like contracting out to an EE firm to make the final mold designs
<Downix> I'm learning how to make a chip mask, I realized I don't need to out-source
<core> Downix: if there is no point in doing the mask yourself, you should outsource tho..?
<Downix> core:  I ment the pattern on it
<core> Downix: oh.. hmm, well, if you're sure you won't fall into any traps or anything
<Downix> core:  I'm checking out the optionsright now
<Downix> I had an option for an established firm to do most of the work for us, for a 20%royalty
<core> Downix: is that the normal percentage? that sounds expensive
<Downix> core:  It is expensive
<Downix> core:  I am tryinghard to do the design work myself now, as you know
<core> Downix: sounds like it to me :) maybe you're better off doing it, i guess
<core> Downix: yeah :)
* Downix/#tunes is doing wlel he feels
10:10pm
<Downix> Still not perfect, I need to learn an HDL
<core> hardware is an unknown territory to me. i (obviously) am familiar with its programming interfaces, but inner works are still magic. especially at today's speeds :) i can understand the workings of a 0.9 mhz 6502, maybe a 8 mhz 68000, but that's it :)
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Downix> yeah, it's scary
<Downix> and 27 months ago I didn't know a transistor from an occilator
<Downix> You should have seen my original concepts on how to design a computer.  They were laughable
<core> well, where was i 27 months ago.. that's what, october 1997?
<Downix> yes, oct 1997
<core> hmm, i was working on GGI :) had a very vague idea of what i wanted clementine to be like, but didn't start a line of code until april '98.
<water> wow
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<water> not know a transistor from an oscillator and now you have that product in the works?
* water/#tunes is non-plussed
<Downix> in Sept'97 I began the trek for Eddas
<Downix> water:  Well, I've had a lot of help.
<Downix> water:  Helps when you have a grandfather who helps design power transmission stations
<core> my grandfather did masonry :P
<water> heh
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<water> i descend from farmers
<core> my father runs the administrative services of a large university, but he's not very computer-savvy
<Downix> Hehe, my grandfather IS a mason.... freemason
<Downix> .em laughs
<core> both of them taught me that working hard pays off, tho :)
<Downix> My grandfather taught me that telligthe truth gets you beaten up, and you know what, he's right
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* Downix/#tunes has had so many people berating himon-line for his ideasit's not funny
<core> Downix: i know that, but i can't help. i inherited that from my mother (always speaking up that is :)
<Downix> core:  hehe
<ult> only problem with speaking up is being wrong
<core> ult: true.. well, if i only say 60% bullshit during a day at work, i'm happy tho. as long as 40% of good ideas come out of it :)
* Downix/#tunes laughs
10:20pm
<Downix> Same here
<core> ult: i don't mind being wrong and being corrected.. have enough self-confidence not to get insulted by it. a lot of people corrected a lot of my thoughts on clem (fare the first) :)
<water> every good idea starts as bs... the difference is what you make out of it :)
<ult> core: Sure. The problem with being wrong though is when other people believe you =)
<ult> Then you end up with 500 people running in the wrong direction
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
* Downix/#tunes nods
<core> ult: oh.. well, i try not to say things i haven't verified. of course it never works 100%.. but usually someone will take pleasure in correcting me :)
* Downix/#tunes phews, no more annoying messages about "Advertise in PC Mag"
* Downix/#tunes nods
<core> people who start at suntech are usually shy and saying OK to whatever i say, but after a month they get the hang of it, and make fun of what i say when i'm wrong ;)
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<Downix> hehe
<core> (just like i do when they are.. fair enough :)
* Downix/#tunes nods
<core> so now we have 12 major, maddening nitpickers. weee :)
<Downix> WHgat do I do when people correct me?
<Downix> I bitch, moan, get angry, turn around, fix it, improve something else, and make the whole thing smaller and cheaper
<Downix> Which is whY I went from a 5million gate machine to a 1.8 million gate machine
<core> Downix: hehe.. well, my mood is always even (the good thing being i don't get angry, the bad thing being i never get excited, either), but basically that goes through the same cycle :)
<Downix> core:  Ihave a problem, I get angry AND excited
<Downix> core:  Get's worse when an attractive babe walks in the room
<Downix> 8)
<Downix> lol
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<core> Downix: not sure this is a problem :) it's just how i am.. not excited :)
<core> Downix: well, i'm an engaged man now, so i'm not supposed to react to that kind of stimuli :)
<water> lol
<Downix> core:  lol
<core> jen sends enough stimuli to keep my brain busy 24/7 though :)
<water> whoa. cool
<core> she's the most restless person i know. can't spend 5 minutes without doing something :)
<Downix> core:  I was engaged at one point.  She ended up becoming excited by that stimuli, and after coming out and 1 week of hot 3-way action, we went our seperate ways.  
<Downix> 8)
<water> whoa
<core> Downix: ahh.. well, that's beyond me now, and we still got engaged ;)
<core> s/beyond/behind/ :)
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<ult> Downix: that's something to brag about ;)
* core/#tunes pities her friends for the next 2 months (or whoever doesn't know about her ring yet :)
<Downix> ult:  nah, she IS my business partner now
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<ult> Well, it's getting rather late here, and I have to get up soon.
<core> Downix: you're in business with an ex-girlfriend?
<ult> I'll see ya'll later.
<core> see ya ult :)
<water> bye ult
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (C'est la vie...)
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<Downix> core: Yes, we broke up friends and we still make good business associates
<core> Downix: make sure you have good contracts tho ;) women usually have oscillating moods, but ex-girlfriends.. man.. :)
<water> core: don't forget you're logged
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<Downix> core:  We do.  (I am VERY rock solid in contracts when I make them)
<core> water: i know i'm logged :) jenny knows she has oscillating moods :)
10:30pm
<water> k
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<Downix> core: Every woman does. You should see my ex and her gffight!
<core> she can go from being excited and clapping her hands, to pout, to being excited, in less than 5 mins :)
<core> i came up with something tho, a 3-day no-pouting rule for getting her ring, i liked it :)
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<core> Downix: oh, she broke up for another girl? lovely :)
<Downix> core:  Rather
<core> ah well, i'll be stuck with the same one for a long time (or the other way around) :)
<Downix> I agree
<Downix> but try convincing the girl I love of that
<core> hehe.. well, no need to hurry :)
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<core> being 'stuck' with jen is great though. she knows me well, never complains about my insane working hours, gets excited for me when i got something done, etc ;)
<eihrul> executes evil corporate lawyers?
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<Downix> sounds like Amy, but Amy hasa big problem about commitment
<water> now *that* would be cool gf
<core> lol. indeed *that* would rock :)
<core> don't give her ideas though :)
<Downix> what would rock?
<core> if she executed corporate lawyers :)
<water> yeah
* Downix/#tunes is REALLY sick of Amy and her stringof ex-lovers
<water> are you jealous or just annoyed?
<core> Downix: well, i'm lucky i guess. she's been my lucky charm, i met her before i started suntech, and things have been going right on both fronts since :)
<Downix> madly jealous
<Downix> core:  Same with Amy
<water> btw, most homosexuals are very bad with commitment
<core> water: i know two who have been together for 5 years :)
<Downix> water:  I know that.
<water> i used to think that it was a stereotype, but i've been proven wrong too many times
<eihrul> Buffy the Corporate Lawyer Slayer... Coming to a cheesy, network television station near you...
<water> rofl :D
* Downix/#tunes laughs
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<water> i think that i might actually *watch* that
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<eihrul> cmucl/doc/* is conspicuously empty
10:40pm
<core> lol
<core> well, she likes buffy (sigh), so she might get ideas.
<Downix> hmm
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<Downix> Ok, I think my mixer is done
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<Downix> Ok, any ideas for 3D?
<eihrul> 1D > 3D
<water> yeah, use matrix transformations :)
* Downix/#tunes gets out a pen and paper
<Downix> whazzat?
<water> huh?
<core> matrix transformations are a given, but don't concern downix
<eihrul> 3D infers matrices...
* Downix/#tunes is planning on focusing on radiocity over polygon count tho
<core> downix: it's a transformation-engine issue
<water> i know, i was joking
<Downix> ok
<core> Downix: a neat mathematical thing that allows for many transformations to be merged in one matrix and applied once to every point you transform
<core> water: making sure he doesn't get confused :)
<Downix> core:  hmm, ok
<water> np
<core> Downix: ie, you can merge a translation/rotation/etc. in one matrix. 9 multiplications per point whatever you do :)
<eihrul> core: you used matrix to define matrix
<eihrul> silly
<core> eihrul: i'm a recursive person ;)
<core> s/one\ matrix/one/
<core> :)
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<eihrul> your definitions aren't tail recursive
<eihrul> so you must be very susceptable to stack overflow...
<core> eihrul: that wasn't a definition, just a vague explanation :)
10:50pm
<Downix> core: I'm mostly trying to see what the most RISC'd solution for 3D is I could do
<Downix> keep control of the 3D up to the library/compiler
<eihrul> isn't that moving against the tide, though?
<water> ack! that's like commiting to one type of gfx engine
<Downix> eihrul: It is but it's smarter
<Downix> water:  Wrong, it's committing to no gfx engine
<eihrul> Downix: probably slower... 
<water> well, what are you putting into the gfx kernel then?
<Downix> water: what kernel?  I'm making hw
<Downix> eihrul:  Depends, smaller actions can be executed in less CPU time
<water> <Downix> keep control of the 3D up to the library/compiler
<core> Downix: well, i suppose you could create a sort of 'instruction set' that can be used to do any kind of 3D operation
<water> n/m then
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<Downix> water:  yes, so whatever compiler/library I use can change the way it works
<water> so why are you concerned with 3d at all?
<Downix> core: X Y Z,rotz, roty, rotz, I know
<core> Downix: that's what you'd not use and use matrices instead. i was more thinking of lower level rendering
<Downix> water:  I need to support it at least limitedly in the chipset
<water> um
<core> maybe another MIPS directly tied to the 2D graphics controller? *shrug*
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<core> that would probably blow your transistor count though :-)
<core> but i don't know if there is anything inbetween an actual cpu that can do what it wants in graphics memory including rendering 3D, and a specialized 3D engine that renders full primitives
11:00pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> yeah, that's a pretty empty continuum
<core> maybe a simpler cpu would do.. you don't need things like a write-back cache, an MMU or an FPU for rendering.
<water> sure
<core> that's maybe the best solution but probably a little expensive :)
<Downix> core: Actually, what I was ponderingwasjust that.  MIPS has a very nice 3D acceleration method availible
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<water> unless there are chips available with those units already stripped from the design
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<core> water: there probably are.. you want to pick a cpu with the same instruction set as the main one though, or writing code will be hell
<Downix> core:  but I'd keep the FPU, for Raytracing 3D work.  8)
<water> heh
<core> Downix: you only want the graphics-cpu for actual rendering. the data would be prepared by the fpu of the main processor
<water> mmm... someday i will have my real-time raytracing engine
<water> *)
<water> 8)
<core> i'd go for a mips core without fpu, mmu and cache
<core> don't know how expensive that is :)
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<core> don't know how much you missed, downix
<Downix> I got the "use a second MIPS" and I said....
<Downix> core: Actually, what I was ponderingwasjust that.  MIPS has a very nice 3D acceleration method availible
<Downix> core:  but I'd keep the FPU, for Raytracing 3D work.  8)
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<water> and i said:
<water> mmm... someday i will have my real-time raytracing engine
<water> 8)
<core> Downix: you only want the graphics-cpu for actual rendering. the data would be prepared by the fpu of the main processor
<core> don't know how expensive that is :)
<core> water: there probably are.. you want to pick a cpu with the same instruction set as the main one though, or writing code will be hell
<core> and whatever else i said :)
<Downix> core:  well, a MIPS cpu needs the FPU to work
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<core> Downix: ah, blah :)
<water> yeah
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<Downix> core:  but I could use another, licensable CPU core like SPARC for 3D work
<water> but just consider the possibilities of marketing a real-time raytracer that can re-optimize itself for the current scene
* Downix/#tunes nods to water
<water> tunes-style 8)
<Downix> that's something else to consider
<core> Downix: or a 68K :-)
<core> a 68000 core boosted to 250 mhz or so ;-)
<core> ok, i have to dash to work, before i suggest using an alpha or something stupid ;-)
<core> see you!
-:- SignOff core: #TUNES (vroom)
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<water> heh
<Downix> I think MIPSis the one to use
<Downix> one for the main int
<Downix> and one for 3D/raytracing
11:10pm
<water> it's cool to see my mips 4300 run squeak at full speed instead of the "reduced cpu usage" speed used before
<Downix> cool
<Downix> MIPS is a cool CPU
<abi> i already had it that way, Downix.
<water> good, abi
<Downix> thanks abi
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<Downix> If I used a MIPS core for a 3D engine it would increase our die size to 3 million gates
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<water> hm
<water> trade-offs
<Downix> A good one
<water> unless you don't need 3d
<Downix> the second MIPS CPU could beused in other ways when not rendering 3D scenes
<water> oh
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<Downix> Don't forget, MIPS is the best SMP CPU out there
<water> sure
<water> so, it's 3d processing would just be a special smp set-up?
<Downix> Right
<water> ah
<Downix> one of the MIPS would tie to the GFX chipdirectly tho
<water> i see
<Downix> but it would still have thedata bus to the other one
<water> with some sort of i/o switch
<Downix> right
<water> interesting
<Downix> would be not too hard to do
<water> i'd never considered that kind of setup
<Downix> I did in the past
<water> but then, i don't design hw :)
<Downix> and my GFX system uses it exclusively for a lot of it's more "fancy" effects
<water> lol... there's an article from 1900 on wired
<Downix> lol
11:20pm
<Downix> anyways
<water> this is cool... linux distro companies will be going for government contracts
<Downix> that is cool
<water> and i'm the only guy in my dept who can handle that stuff
<water> hehe
<water> it will be fun to axe NT
<water> just once, it won't be the one to axe itself
<water> 8)
<water> i'd love to show the guys at work kde
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<water> their jaws would hit the floor if i showed them an open-source oodb like zope
<water> anyway
<water> (that was quite the tangent)
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> someone needs a better system than X
<water> yeah, x really sucks
<water> wait.. did you mean the x windowing system or X as a variable?
<Downix> X windowing systsme
<water> k
<water> wow. the mars polar lander seems to have landed ina canyon
<Downix> Someone needs to figure out a better way to handle things over the network
<Downix> Yup
<Downix> I heard
<air> YES!!!!
<water> talk about your bad luck
<water> air: why excited?
<air> one more section of brix is finished
<Downix> YES!
<water> oh
11:30pm
* Downix/#tunes likes hearing of projects being finished
<air> well i just finished the sleep() and semaphores so now my floppy driver will work
<air> and i will be able to see if my persistence code works
<water> ah. very useful, then
<Downix> ok
<air> well im off to bed now, cya
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
<Downix> Hmm
<Downix> I just realized
<Downix> all I have left to design now is the local bus
* Downix/#tunes is in shock
<water> cool
<Downix> OMG
<water> and hopefully, i'm close to knowing what code i must precisely add to my squeak alpha code that will make arrow work
* Downix/#tunes is damned close to being done
<Downix> Alright
<water> it's been six years since i thought up the idea
<Downix> great
<water> i studied axiomatic reasoning and formal proofs in this great geometry class, and gradually came to form this idea of a program that "walked" over data-structures on the hard drive that only had structure (structure formed content)
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> interesting
<water> and i realized i could connect all sorts of ideas together
<Downix> oooo
<water> little did i realize just how much i'd have to learn to get the thing working
<Downix> Same with Eddas
<Downix> hold on, need the bandwidth
-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: roqz yer nutz!)
11:40pm
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<Downix> ok, back
* water/#tunes is browsing apple's os x decription
<water> description, even
<Downix> ok
<water> not half bad... they went with the next's preference for dps and replaced it with api support for pdf
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11:50pm
<Downix> cool
<water> it claims every app will have pdf output support
<Downix> grr
<Downix> I NEED X TO WORK!
<water> sorry
<Downix> I just finished compiling it, and it still can't run
<water> hm.. i wonder if kde could support pdf-output api
<water> probably not
<Downix> this is the new /usr/X11R6/bin directory after Imake World:make install
<water> k
<Downix> does it look complete to you?
<water> hardly
<Downix> Agreed
<Downix> WTF is it missing?
<water> is this just for a build or what?
<water> not sure what's missing, offhand
<water> i'm not that savvy, and i'm in win32 right now
<Downix> this is just for me
<Downix> I just built it
<water> (modem on linux problems)
<water> oh
<water> dunno... startx? :)
<Downix> startx says that files are missing
<water> well, they are. but i couldn't tell you which ones they are
<water> check xfree86.org
<Downix> ok
<water> heh. i have a 1280x1024 resolution set up, and i can never find the desktop :)
<Downix> lol
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0107
IRC log ended Fri Jan  7 00:00:01 2000