IRC log started Thu Jan 27 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0127 -:- park [user6307@211.37.23.185] has joined #tunes hi -:- park [user6307@211.37.23.185] has left #tunes [] 12:30am -:- water [water@tnt-10-56.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from king.openprojects.net [03:55am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com king.openprojects.net -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-18.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- Zhivago [brian@61.8.3.96] has joined #tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has left #tunes [] -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- Hal_ [hal@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes Zhivago: good movie... =) re hal ree: hi. 06:10am -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes Hal_: My mother likes it. =) 06:50am -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh5-port17.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-227-199.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes hey marcel hum hei 'ning hey 08:20am l8r d00dZ -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (jumbo) -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES ([x]chat) 08:30am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us325.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- McFish [mcfish@MMMCCCLX.hdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff McFish: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-247-20.s20.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Hal_: #TUNES (Visit http://www.mistik.net) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- washort [washort@d140.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes 7leave oops ... forgot slash (just ignore this) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has left #tunes [] 02:00pm -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (potato here I come) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us739.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp220.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250066.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes I just got word about another Forth OS project.. A pretty successful one, I might add url? http://203.87.14.203 pyro: what's it do? he said he's starting TCP/IP support looks like it runs on a motorola Coldfire chip hmm, like in the PalmPilot? that's a 'dragonball' I think Coldfire is a core circuit, with various customized MPU's built around it ok. i had someone tell me they were one and the same 03:50pm or very close wow.. this is huge for a Forth OS :) 04:00pm -:- ult [noone@user-38lc686.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes I haven't been paying attention to Linux lately.. anyone know of a good *small* distribution that's set up pretty good "out-of-the-box"? CClinux is small... single floppy :) 04:30pm did anyone read the /. article on opengl? nope eihrul: Does it have ppp, mail, and lynx? no.... that's all I really need.. and gforth :) * eihrul/#tunes just uses Debian. debian install disks have a ppp setup then just apt-get install lynx and a mail package, and you're set hmm.. there was something I didn't like about debian -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp220.lvdi.net]) pyro: the fact that it sucks? :) pyro: go read that article on opengl, i think sgi opensourced it -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp119.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes eihrul: did u read the opengl article on /.? nope it says it opensourced all the components needed to write hardware accellerated opengl drivers what does that mean? 04:40pm * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. air: still using redhat? yes too big debian :) just use the install disks... fuck it, I should just grab gforth for DOS :) except I need ppp/mail/lynx, dammit the install disks give you a fairly useable system... just without mail or lynx, which as i said can be fixed in two packages... ok, maybe I'll give it a try again what I'm really looking for is a Linux distro that doesn't cater to Windows users pyro: Debian doesn't. :) i don't suppose Slackware does either, but i'm lazy and prefer debian. :) slackware isn't so well-tuned ftp://ftp.noguska.net/linux/distributions/monkey/ -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) where's the linux distro master list? pyro: *shrug* been a while since i've used it. Debian has everything i want. :) ftp://ftp.noguska.net/linux/distributions/hal91/ pyro: lwn.net has a fairly complete list i think air: ha! :) 04:50pm pyro: muLinux might also be worth a try.... -:- TheBlueWizard [TheBlueWiz@pm32-44.chantilly.pressroom.com] has joined #tunes hiya all hmm....so quiet.... only since you arrived :) heh....my first time visiting this channel guess it ain't alive.... everyone here seems to be busy doing other stuff myself included hmm...like what? -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (BBL) 05:00pm looking for a good *small* Linux distribution... and reading mail I've played a bit with DragonLinux (before 0.8)...it was *small*...now since it includes X windows, I dropped it :) By the way, I just installed Debian off from Internet :)))) hehe * TheBlueWizard/#tunes grinz everyone's telling me to switch back to debian :) oh? I never tried any other brand of Linux.... I switched to Freebsd because I was getting fed up with the fragmentation of Linux yeah...that can be a problem.... pyro: try muLinux or debian... muLinux is REALLY small and does everything you want but then again diversity helps too... pyro: i believe its about 2 floppies as of this statement... mulinux *is* pretty impressive for its size but I'm not looking for a minimalist system.. I want bash not ash, etc :) or rather, I want zsh you never specified you wanted zsh or bash... you just said ppp/mail/lynx fuckit, let's try debian :) you mean the Linux equiv of DOS-like small functionality? no... muLinux approaches normal distro functionality... any linx-on-a-disk will give you atleast as much as dos * TheBlueWizard/#tunes nods monkey linux has X11 two disks seems to be the smallest possible for Linux AFAIK by the way for anyone who cares, DragonLinux is on www.dragonlinux.nu * TheBlueWizard/#tunes is learning his way around Debian ... especially that oh so critical dselect utility :) dselect is what I hate about debian! yeah....I find it confusing...though I know it's powerful and versatile 05:10pm -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-241-190.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes hiya ghyll and buggy :( hia hey ghyll 'lo pyro: that's why you use apt... all those package-management systems will fuck you over BSD's is no exception dselect... you're not really supposed to use that hehe * eihrul/#tunes prefers to browse the package lists with lynx and just use apt-get install to get them. yeah apt-get is a command program? yeah, it's sort of a ftp/http/etc front-end I see of course one has to know the name of package in order to retrieve it, right? yes but its easy enough to find ok great...one other important question: how do I test the PPP connection? Remember I only have a bare-bone Debian at this point... uh, use plog to see the ppp log.... cool....thanks! 05:20pm eihrul: you using slink or potato? potato slink is old already hehe potato has not been completed yet.... its in freeze right now that's complete enough for me... that means its complete just not fully debugged it is *starting* to get freezed...not finished freezing.... * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. I look forward to the repeal of Moore's law and the stagnation of computer technology so? it's complete enough for everything i use potato has been frozen for a year if the latest package-i-don't-use is not in there, then it doesn't impact me * TheBlueWizard/#tunes nods pyro: people would actually have to compensate with better software! metaverse forbid! :) -:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving) don't repeal Moore's Law...accelerate it!!!! this way I can skip tens of generations of tech stuff ;) christ, the Debian base is 13 MB! yeah... well... you wanted functional hehe yeah, good enough and it has enough to enable you to download stuff.... the boot+root disks have that much but dammit, i'm below 33.6k this will not do :) I'm below that too...big deal. 05:30pm brb -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) you can use pico bsd too where is that pico bsd? -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250158.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes re not sure k pyro, openbsd boot disk is very comprehensive you can remove the sh on there and put ksh on it ksh can be fully configured it can do pppd, has lan support a lot of the usual commands you can change the compile to execute gzip'd binaries too the kernel rather they fit a lot of stuff on that one disk heh interesting! yeah, you'll need to use a kernel fs I take it you're running obsd right now? nope freebsd but I use to use openbsd for my gateway until I replaced it with dos to do system programming what version of fbsd? a 4.0 snapshot um...you said you can compile a gzipped file w/o gunzip it first? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) blue, no, you can gzip binaries and run them (linux can do this too, but not sure of any one disk implementations) 05:40pm I see gunzip is gzip, just a alias to gzip -d =) from the linux world mainly heh I know...I just spell it out for easy discussion ;) never cared for linux why's that, if I may inquire.... just doesn't really match the performance of bsd filesystem vm handling, mutli tasking is not as responsive, most distributions (all I tested) have been really thrown together hmm....I never have tried bsd either...actually, I tried to install FreeBSD but it didn't work, so I dumped it linux has the tendency to buckle under extreme usage of the fs heh blue well, it is all personal opinion every os seems to fit someone's need ree: how's net & open- bsd compare with fbsd? ree: except the ones that don't exist... well, they have different aims the FreeBSD boot floppies that I created just boot up, and nothing happened....screen is completely blank, etc....what else can I do??? So I dump it...it isn't my "opinion"! net is focused on ports, while open runs on about the same hardware but is focused on security (complete rewrite and heavy ridicule of any contributed source) blue, over 5 million people use freebsd numbers are irrelevant if it doesn't work on my computer....duh! blue, but I meant that opinion towards my dislike of linux did you use good disks? it would if you took the time, but anyway yes eihrul, true tunes is better than all of them :) hah well, I don't care for unix myself honestly is TunesOS up and running? 05:50pm on some alien planet... maybe I'll just install mulinux since I already have a copy of it. Debian's ftp is wicked lagged. pyro: try ftp.kr.debian.org the korean mirror is ironically faster... ok :) * TheBlueWizard/#tunes grinz -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (is it am or pm ?? who cares.. ) eegads... a multi-threaded program that just checks for broken links on a web page... can thou say overkill? 06:00pm hmm....so quiet eihrul has that effect on a channel =) * TheBlueWizard/#tunes blinks something weird about eihrul? sure * TheBlueWizard/#tunes hmms! well, see ya all -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) bye pyro afk late r 06:10pm back um...the Tunes project seems to be searching for an ideal programming language, eh? * TheBlueWizard/#tunes notices a deafening silence..... 06:20pm heh yeah, hll of course hll? hll is probably High Level Language which I don't see necessary ah I like their application ideas though I'd say it would be a good idea to pick a MLL (Middle Level Language) to replace C....C has too many flaws to even be used as an intermediate language.... I think you should just make a advanced environment for assembly an installed library, includes, set of macros, etc no reason that assembly can't be literally used like a hll * TheBlueWizard/#tunes nods but still having access to the lowest level of programming though it'd be nice to include a support for inline assembly, a must in OS development honestly though you can have function calls just like printf in assembly or sprintf, or for loops, if conditionals I don't know though everyone seems to be focused on portability except for people who program using apis which still ironically argue the benefits of portability heh -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial746.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes can do that....but I often see inline asm coding....the slickest language I know of that support asm coding is Forth I think portability should be the last thing on mind Shalom! heh re: portability and API development salut kaufman :) what's up? me...my first time here on #Tunes...that's what's up! hehe * TheBlueWizard/#tunes grinz so blue, what are your interests in computing ah what are you? he's only human hehe I hate that sentence 06:30pm I don't get why people are content with being only human. me...I like programming, and I have a broad range of interest in computer stuff only human? * TheBlueWizard/#tunes looks askance at ree and Kaufman..."Human??? What are you talkin' about?" y'know hairless ape any rationalization of not being content is a human felt opinion and not directly related to evolution big brains, upright walkers, somehow decided that inhabit the center of the universe. um...ah...that so-called hairless ape.... "give a monkey a brain and he'll swear that he's the center of the universe." um...I believe the monkey already has a brain.... :) s'ppose what about the feeling of hatred towards the human race, that's almost as common if not more common probably much more hatred from who? just people in general more common than what? ah....I can half believe that --- I have to deal with shmucks at work :) live or die, that's every basic organic thing's choice choice? as if there's a choice...(sarcasm) so what type of programming do you do blue I am fluent in several languages (C, several assembly langs, Python, Forth (a bit rusty now though) and few others), and I know some of COBOL, Pascal, etc. but what type of programming do you _do_? yeah ah...developing applications for govt and a bit of Internet programming what type? ah it has been said that type is there and is used when dispatching on the correct method lol * Kaufmann/#tunes works for the Executive Branch * Kaufmann/#tunes is about ten memos away from the President of Brazil, actually * TheBlueWizard/#tunes .type(programming) gives "Huh?" ;) 06:40pm heh by type I mean what kind of applications I'm a lowly researcher at the Institute for Pure and Applied Mathematics, which is under the National Council for Research and Development, which is under the Ministry of Science and Technology, which reports to the President. network, graphical, database, security, word processor I'm also a lowly grunt too...nothing wowey about it ah...we use database, some network, and I'll get involved with security stuff cool what about you ree? well, I'm starting a free open source software development porject project hmm? what project? which involves...? based on efficiency and usability A project called "KillBillGates.exe"? :) it's a group of projects, similar to gnu but with a much more open license what do you mean by "much more open license"? like BSD? yeah -:- witten [witten@un.torsion.org] has joined #tunes people will be able to take the source and use it in anyway they see fit ah...more 'liberal' license egads, not yet another episode of the licensing jihad even removing the license and adding their own well I don't like gnu's gpl it * TheBlueWizard/#tunes blinks...."Whoa...that's way so liberal!" well, I think that is a good approach rea: it all depends on your goal in releasing software we should focus on helping the computer industry as a whole careful---M$ would just snatch the code and $ell it like crazy! they wouldn't have to ree, I'd appreciate it if you didn't tell me what "we" "should" focus on. kaufmann, exactly gnu does that * TheBlueWizard/#tunes nods in agreement with Kaufman the license doesn't express my opinion ree, no, the GPL simply says "do what you want with the code, except forbidding other people from using it" it just basically protects the authors from liability yes but if you have prior art some other person could not take your code and force people not to use it commercial support is just as important as non-commercial ree: there's a difference between commercial and proprietary 06:50pm you can have commercial GPL code and wouldn't a commercial company with strong influence in the industry help the industry indirectly by adopting some open standard * TheBlueWizard/#tunes sits back and listens to the growing controversy..... hehe gpl just seems like a closed source license in disguise as something nicer it doesn't give the user full access/control to the software * TheBlueWizard/#tunes blinks public domain software is a better word for what I believe in it's used to describe those software that have a simple license that just protects the original author(s) from being held liable ree: it depends on your goal. if your goal is to spread open source software, gpl is the license for you. if your goal is to give people the right to do anything the want with your software, gpl is not a good license for your purposes you can do both with public domain but if your goal is to spread ONLY open source, public domain isn't as strong as gpl true but you can easily go around gpl how? if you mean that you dislike having to proactively release every source code changes under GPL, I can see your point...but still, I believe in the general openness and accessibility..... well, most gpl authors don't have the money to support their claims and since code is really a iffy situation with originality TheBlueWizard: you *don't* have to release all source code changes unless you distribute binaries oh? a large company could easily say they had prior work ree: you can bet that the free software foundation would backup any gpl software if someone tried to violate the license ree: prior work isn't an issue here I don't think they'd be any match TheBlueWizard: yup, read the license no, it isn't an issue it's the free availibilty of ideas ree: are you suggesting that a large company can effectively violate the copyright of someone with less monetary resources? they can effectively hold back a claim of someone with less resources 07:00pm how? keep it tied up look at the etoys battle anyway, nice meeting y'all....gotta to go....have to work tomorrow...bye all! the etoys battle has absolutely nothing to do with copyright law later blue I'm not a ip lawyer of course -:- TheBlueWizard [TheBlueWiz@pm32-44.chantilly.pressroom.com] has left #tunes [] okay.. what I'm saying is that software shouldn't be closed to anyone it isn't like the bsd software developers are ever hurt in anyway by someone who uses their code gpl'd software isn't "closed" to anyone. anyone can look at it regardless of whether they agree with the gpl in fact all it does is help spread good software you just can't modify/redistribute it without agreeing and that should be the main idea for progress so you can't effectively gain anything from it without agreeing to its terms it doesn't actively hurt the bsd developers.. but i would argue that gpl developers stand to gain *more* because work on their software is returned to the community rather kept behind closed doors it's just more political garbage to protect one's intellectual property how is protecting intellectual property? um it's using the IP laws to *subvert* IP! kept behind open doors? the main developers still have access to their own code and anyone who wanted to adapt it to their own needs would have access yes, their own original code.. but not dervied works I don't see how in any way that is ever changed so? so the gpl programmers have accessed to all derived works why should they? if someone wants to improve upon your code and provide that as a service to someone why should you try to stop that it isn't hurting anyone else it isn't stopping the development of that software because most gpl programmers believe that OPEN ideas are more important than allowing someone to use their software how they want to well, that isn't exactly an open idea is it? it sure is open making anyone who uses your code adhere to your own personal ideas it's not making anyone do anything yes, if they want to use your software they're under no obligation to use the code of course not again, it all depends on your priorities yes yeah witten your priorities seem to place freedom of use over freedom of information and that's fine i just don't happen to have the same priorities it is freedom of information as well the GPL is basically bitter, whereas the BSD license is trusting and idealistic. and believe me, bsd is doing very well Kaufmann: not necessarily bitter.. just recognizing the ways of capitalistic software development very solid and heavily used code I know... j/k ree: of course