IRC log started Sun Feb 13 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0213 ;l 12:30am -:- moebious [moebious@pandorasbox.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #tunes crazy -:- moebious [moebious@pandorasbox.resnet.mtu.edu] has left #tunes [] 01:30am -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn231.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes Gakuk -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) rares: has the Win2k bug database overflown because it had > 65535 bugs? 02:40am Or rather, are there only 65535 bugs just because the bug database couldn't handle more than that? 02:50am -:- witten [witten@un.torsion.org] has joined #tunes hehe rares is long gone anyone alive? yah hi hello do you know anything about intensional programming nope not unless i know that by a different name non-procedular programming? err, non-procedural so like, functional programming? i guess i know a little about it do functional langs have control-flow? i.e. if, while, etc.. they have control flow but they don't look quite like control flow looks in imperative languages do they have state variables? no state unless they're hybrid functional-imperative how does it look different? well, it's all declarative how is it possibly to write a real app in a purely functional lang if you cant maintain state has anybody done it? depends what you mean by "real app" (im talking about stuff besides encoding a math formula) a real app as in a hairy real-world app, like a user-interface 03:20am i think user interface have traditionally been problematic in functional languages there may be some proposed solutions that i'm not aware of, however i'm not exactly up on the latest in functional language research hrmm lisp seems to be procedural and functional? is there a dialect of lisp which is purely functional? i don't know hrmm. i need to learn haskell haskell is supposedly purely functional sounds like fun i'm a big fan of state, myself oh are you using it? using what? slate no i said "state", not slate :) ohoh sorry :P itz late my heds a bit fuzzy heh why should state be considered evil? it's slow? hrmm. some algorithms require that you remember stuff i guess its been proven that there's *always* a non-procedural solution to a given problem, but its difficult to fathom i don't know i just find that my mind doesn't work functionally maybe it's just because i've been raised on imperative languages the imperative way is natural. humans solve tasks by following a set of steps functional languages can save state if they're lambda calculus based fufie: how is that? 03:30am do you know lambda calculus? or the LET form? not really... is it first-order logic? i've seen let it's often covered in FOL courses a let-form might look like: (let ((foo some-value)) (fun foo)) but the LET can be seen as a function that's cheating :) ((lambda (foo) (fun foo)) some-value) that's the lambda form.. ok. is there anything that distinguishes that from declaring a variable on the stack in an imperative lang? if it helps you I can say yes but lambda caluclus is more powerful calculus even because you can manipulate functions like variables? yes saving state in variables can be faked with functions and state can be saved in functions which you can pass along hrmm but purely functional languages aren't widely used i wonder why most of us use quiasi-functional languages quasi (typo day) like modern lisp? like common lisp yes or scheme ml... ml is also quasi-functional is it an attribute of functional langs that types are determined dynamically? no that's an attribute of slow languages :) ml is statically typed, lisps tend to be dynamically types i c witten: pah is haskell an ml ? haskell is an ml derivative how do you call the difference between typing in C and ml ? explicit vs implicit typing perhaps? * smoke/#tunes autodidactz (read: doesn't know what he's talking about) both C and ml are statically typed.. ml is however strongly typed while C's typing can be cast away 03:40am in ml, when u use a var, its context has to be unambiguous as far is typs is concerned? but you don't actually have to declare what it is? typs=type that's exactly what i meant to ask (what present is asking) present: it is deduced from the context and the first assign I think.. (I am no expert on ml.. I am a lisper) interesting i was reading about the Lucid language. an 'intensional' language in which there are no control-flow statements have you got an url to this language? yep (one sec) http://lucy.uvic.ca/LucidPrimer/LucidPrimer-intro.html thats a decent outline well, its more religious dogma about von-neumann than the lang itself but it gets the point across ok.. Lucid is usually a company name in most lispers' vocabulary yah, i was wondering if lucid lisp was related it's not related to Lucid Tech. ? no this is something totally diff i think (oh no that was lucEnt. grin) -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes anybody here? yes lucid emacs present: it is _very_ different hehe i thought so what is a switch? statements all happen in parallel, and are grouped into logical 'components' (like unix pipes) bin: depends on context Fufie: piece of hardware. heh. context switch. switch? like a router? uh, network piece of hardware something along the lines, yes Oneone told me he had a switch and said it was a "smart hub" s/Oneone/someone/ i think switch/hub/router all overlap but switch usually directs traffic, whereas hub just relays it a hub is positively different from a router 03:50am bin: http://www.upenn.edu/computing/group/natf/switch-eval.html Fufie: thanks. uh.. dozens of pages.. the first part explains it basically and the text gives examples of use, complexity, etc about how costly is a switch? *shrug* see a switch can direct traffic bound for a certain IP to the right MAC address, and only that address.. whereas a 'dumb' hub would just spew that traffic all over the network how does a switch differ from a router? router handles higher-level protocols and sets up strategic plans for routing traffic a router would say, 'when you're headed for network B, go through interface X' i guess some switches can do that stuff too router/switch are like the same thing when we're at it, how about firewall and gateway? :) a router can be a firewall ermm. firewall is a node which restricts incoming/outgoing traffic based on certain rules. a router can be a gateway gateway is a node which brokers traffic between 'internal' nodes and external nodes ok. so a gateway do some sort of translation which routers do not? gateway can be as simple as forwarding, or do network address translation see witten ^^ no.. "gateway" simply signifies a router in between an external and inernal network ok i have a router/gateway/firewall sitting about 2 feet from me :) linux! mine is 6 feet away yup :P I don't need such, I use static IP's instead :) 04:00am umm.. a firewall is kindof interesting.. esp. for static IPs i have a static IP but i only have one Fufie: how so? hey, gakuk bin: added level of security these days Lizp: A Compiling Interpreter for Win32 bin: doesn't make things impossible.. but protects from a lot of the script-kiddies compiling interpreter? Lizp is an advanced interpreter and compiler for the Win32 environment. Lizp exposes and extends the Win32 APIs, and is ideal for producing system and network utilities for Windows NT and Windows 95. ain't that kind of an oxymoron? hehe abi: lizp? somebody said lizp was an advanced interpreter and compiler for the Win32 environment. Lizp exposes and extends the Win32 APIs, and is ideal for producing system and network utilities for Windows NT and Windows 95. Fufie: would that be on each computer or cetrally in some way? i guess its a compiler/interpreter bin: on a central computer or one can buy a small gadget which works as a firewall Fufie: ok i like how java exists in the nether region between compilation and interpretation hmm.. wonder what good old liszt would say to all these lisps which almost rip his name :) present: i don't :) Fufie: what kind of protection does that give? witten, provides alot of room for optimization while keeping the flexibility of interpreting.. bin: reduced level of ports open, portscanning is tougher, one can block incoming calls, etc present: what flexibility? platform independence? yep present: i don't know whether that particular trade-off is worth it why not? supposedly with a continuously-running optimizer in the runtime env. you can beat out a compiled version present: that's theory. yah, well soon see if it works i'll be among the first to cheer if it does. but until then, i'm a sceptic :) 04:10am what annoys me with java is the separation between compilation and running of programs Fufie: why? yah thats kind of lame because during compilation I wish to reflect on a few classes and build a few tables I want to compile to do a fast load later now I have to do this reflection during the run which results in slower starting time what kind of table do u mean? you can dl java hotspot today btw../ a table of methods and variables in various classes and lookup-tables for speedier selection.. can't you just statically lay them out? "selection"? it's a liveconnectish thing it's for a javascript engine which uses java code ahh java load time sux as does perl load time im the only one who notices perl runtime, because i've been running on a 486 dx2/66 when you start including all these modules, things start to slow down.. upgrade your computer.. now! :) i did, but i run windows on the fast one cuz NT would suck on a 486 man i need to sleep see you folks later.... -:- present [xdef@209-6-184-165.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #tunes [] 04:20am -:- witten [witten@un.torsion.org] has left #tunes [] -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES ( ) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us947.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn231.delft.casema.net]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-62.s316.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn20.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp30.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- ult [noone@user-37kbasu.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes hey hi 08:40am -:- regelet [regelet@200.242.135.44] has joined #tunes om -:- regelet [regelet@200.242.135.44] has left #tunes [] 08:50am -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbasu.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- ult_ [noone@user-37kbatu.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- ult_ is now known as ult -:- water [water@tnt-9-138.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey hey yesterday was completely unproductive :P i still feel terrible. i always do after spending 24 hours on the ship yes, if you consider the truthbot fiasco especially... truthbot? truthbot is ok abi forget truthbot water: I forgot truthbot eih: care to explain? :) 09:50am we were trying to get a co-routine situation going between abi and truthbot... see what happens when you're not here? hm i'm not familiar with truthbot, but ok truthbot is a potential replacement for abi, because abi is becoming dated what does truthbot do that abi can't? nothing, really well, supposedly, it's going to be more intelligent about the data it collects. * ult/#Tunes shrugs i'' check the infobot site got a url for truthbot? nope, mibin was just showing it off earlier om * AlonzoTG/#tunes is finishing up an essay on why linux sucks. alonzotg: you refuted an essay on why linux does not suck? 10:00am wow. someone saw my blurb on <> (i posted a response to al.lang...) 10:10am er... alt. lang.artificial :) 10:20am dude dude :) 10:30am Are computers countable? the ones we have now definitely are :) finite even well, you could count the state of the hard drive disk position as countable, though infinite 10:40am -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) wow. it takes quite a while to write up this <> stuff. perhaps i should put it up on tunes I mean could you count the number of possible computers? How many different types of machines constitute a computer? it depends on your system of meaning "what is/isn't a computer" in the standard way, there are only finitely many possible 11:00am finite is good. why? it makes the problem managable... the only thing finiteness is good for is finite thinking :P I want to make an OS that is applicable to as many computers as possible therefore I need to try to figure out how many of the set of all computers any given OS can run on.... finiteness won't help there my skull is less than 8 inches across, how would you suggest I engage in infinite thinking? what an idiot each neuron is capable of uncountably many states alonzo: what kind of computers do you mean? for example there's a whole bunch of `computers' (in my definition) that can't even use an OS (like pascal's mechanical devices for example) that is not possible. water: is that true? smoke: yes it's true of many kinds of natural phenomena the number of states of a neuron can't excede the dimensions of the skull, and large but finite number of configurations can occour within that space. water: according to Heisenberg we don't know that smoke: no, heisenberg allows it http://users.erols.com/alangrimes/OS/nolinux.txt water: how is a state defined then? if it's set by a specific position of specific amounts and sorts of material/current, then it can't be all too infinite water: i don't know very much about neural biology it has to do with quantification of nonlinearity in the neuron as a chemical machine alonzo: do you mean knowleDge by knowlege ? =\ water: is it actually known that chemical reactions can take place in an infinite amount of ways in a finite space then? Hooket on foniks workt for me! i believe so, although the current physical model doesn't give the appropriate vocabulary for why (at least not for me right now) 11:10am alonzo: i probably don't understand the article you wrote why does linux cost $500/month ? does linux only cost $500/month? i think that's just the initial cost water: you mean getting it installed (cost of labour)? that and learning to use the various systems nope, initial cost is $2500, including "gzip using" classes my estimate is around $1000 for installing and then $1000 pr month.. which probably is a lot cheaper than any win-solution there's also the power-gained/training-time ratio which shows windoze way at the bottom How much power do I need? The ammount of skill that I require to operate linux far excedes that which I use to run DOS. yup.. but those who use linux where I work knows Unix and Linux very well therefore it is more costly to operate linux. i've installed a basic linux on some machines in <30 mins. that's about $10 per machine if i get payed well for my standards well, you can concentrate the cost in a sysadmin or guru alonzo: making mud huts is probably less costly than making real houses as well cost = skill * time. not every user needs to be a guru dos isn't easy to learn or use either smoke: we develop software and the machines must be configured especially for that, including libraries, passwords, paths, etc, etc.. this steals time _very_ fast especially on machines with windows pre installed, dos is hell hey, my machine boots to DOS every day. If it were any more hell than linux I wouldn't be using it. =) fufie: yup. and then $1000 is cheap. for a big company it may well cost $1M to install linux on all previous-win98/nt machines -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes alonzo: it's SO personal. alonzo: if you're used to DOS, then that's no reason to say that Linux sucks. alonzo: you'd better call the article "I like DOS" smoke: yes, but tthose $1M can be saved pretty quickly compared to hiring people to fix windows problems :-) 11:20am fufie: the $1M could be saved even better if you just threw >80% of all machines out :) alonzo: write a co-article about wy you prefer horse carriages instead of cars and how you like clubs to machine guns as well :) smoke: maybe.. but that would be hard to do in a development company :) I think we average two machines pr developer :) face it, someone needs to make tunes alonzo: and the remark about the keys in Emacs being stupid, is the worst argument you could use. Is there something I should/should not read? alonzo: those keys are configurable on about three levels, which can't be said about DOS edit. not every one likes maximizing the keyboard interface one can use the rodent as well in emacs water: i know, but the argument is personal and generalized to make it invalid. true, but the rodent isn't supported as well as the kb speaking about emacs, is there a shortcut to copy text? water: typing english text is very hard with only 3 buttons instead of >26. that's probably why :) smoke: that's not what i'm arguing :) bineng: C-SPC sets mark, move to end of block and hit M-w to copy, then type C-y somewhere else to yank the copied text in water: emacs IS a text editor after all. maybe emacs could use a twiddler smoke: I know about that one, but merely *copying* seems impossible water: what's a twiddler? bineng: that IS copying isn't it? bineng: what do you mean by coping then? that's what's wrong with you people, you're all esmacks users.... smoke: oh.. perhaps I've been using C-w it's a sort of kb that's shaped like a mouse, but has several buttons that can be combined/sequenced to yield extra combos alonzo: i've used qedit, dos edit and turbo.exe for several years before starting out with emacs water: aha. C-y pastes bineng: C-w = cut, M-w = copy yes unfortunately, i haven't used one much, so i'm not sure if it would make emacs simpler but it definitely seems like it would smoke: ah, thx alot. it works water: it probably will help if you're new to emacs gakuk fufie: iow, probably good except for legacy users? :) btw, I tried TeXmacs yesterday, and it was fairly nice. smoke: ooh smoke: how is it designed for tex other than syntax-highlighting? water: yeah.. we just click keys automatically.. it's been a long time since we thought about what the keys do in emacs water: it's wysiwyg smoke: hm. on freshmeat? abi: texmacs? texmacs is a lisp extendable WYSIWYG editor, inspired by both TeX and Emacs at http://www.math.u-psud.fr/~anh/TeXmacs/TeXmacs.html thx smoke: wysiwyg for code also? :-) 11:30am I tried to install that, but couldn't do it :( fufie: that'd be cool :) whoa. nice screenshots water: and the screenshots aren't even faked ! :) bineng: why not? heh * water/#tunes contemplates using elisp over latex it took me some time before i figured out i had to do `. SETUP;make' water: using elisp over latex? this would be soooo cool :) smoke: I don't remember now.. but I'm running FreeBSD not Linux. yes, macros, metaprogramming, etc smoke: one think is that I have trouble setting environment variables water: oh you mean word processing with lisp instead of the TeX like macros? yes Anyone that knows how I do that? Besides in csh, I don't know how. water: interesting concept. is there something like that already? not that i know of bineng: in bash it's `source SETUP' bineng: it all depends on the shell you use bbl i've always like lisp-as-automation-language, but haven't liked the emacs ui I'm using zsh water: elisp???????? of all lisps.. elisp?? heh not necessarily yeah, the emacs UI has a lot of cruft but it works I much prefered the Turbo Pascal UI. (except for the lack of command line/programmability) water: if you seriously consider using elisp to anything you really should start getting up-to-date on lisps.. even RMS denounces elisp.. LOOK, YOU IDIOTS, I DON'T HAVE THE KIND OF MIND THAT TAKES QUICKLY OR EASILY TO UNIX!!!! well, i'm usually too busy to look into better options e.g. not knowing of texmacs atg: use kde or gnome at least choose a decent scheme-version (mzscheme) or a real lisp well, like i said, i don't have time to choose