IRC log started Mon Feb 14 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0214
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<water> hm noisy people gone :)
<water> me happy
<water> hey i got a url for newbies
<water> http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/andrew/writing/lang.html
<water> not sure if there's a good key for abi to link this under, but at least let me know what you think of it
<water> it doesn't quite fit under "review", unless tunes has taken up the reviewing of reviews lately without letting me know :)
<water> anyone listening?
* hcf/#tunes is
<water> ok
<hcf> (if he counts)
<lar1> I am
<hcf> lar1: u dont count ;)
<water> lar: read this
<water> you being the nub programmer here
<lar1> nub?
<water> non-useful body
<lar1> Ummm
<lar1> whatever
<hcf> abi: pl intro is at http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/andrew/writing/lang.html
<water> ok that works
<water> lar: you don't know enough yet
<lar1> thats true
<water> that's my point
<water> not that you're incapable, you just need to learn
<lar1> Correct
<lar1> You made it sound
<water> which makes you a nub :)
<lar1> like I had no potential
<water> oh
<hcf> lar1: can u bend a spoon?
12:20am
<water> heh
* water/#tunes is reminded of a good koan
<lar1> hcf: There is no spoon
<lar1> Ohh Ohh!  good web page!
<water> heh. pop culture to help with expanding the minds of youth :)
<lar1> Huh?
<lar1> Oh
<lar1> Heh
<water> hm. toontalk provides excellent metaphors for teaching programming concepts
<lar1> toontalk?
<water> www.toontalk.com
<water> i'll write up a blurb for abi
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<water> abi toontalk is a visual dynamic language for concurrent constraint logic programming at http://www.toontalk.com/
<water> doh!
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<water> abi toontalk is a visual dynamic language for concurrent constraint logic programming at http://www.toontalk.com/
* eihrul/#tunes ponders how many buzzwords were left out of that description.
<water> heh
<water> well i felt no one would take "toontalk" seriously unless i put in the buzzwords
<water> besides, they are all correct terms for the language
12:30am
<water> heh. but of course the thing sucks resources like crazy :)
<water> eihrul: so do my syntactical namespace operators seem so crazy now or do you still need to sleep on it? :)
<eihrul> sleep
<water> heh
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<water> it probably needs some improvements anyway
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<water> so don't just blindly accept it, ok? :)
12:40am
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<water> hm some guy named moebius was here saturday night
<lar1> Ok...
12:50am
<water> hm i'm wondering just what people will need of namespaces
<water> it probably won't be too complex
<water> maybe a simple hierarchy will be enough, possibly extended to a graph in some cases, though i can't imagaine what that'd be good for
01:00am
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<water> anyone here?
<eihrul> kind of
<water> geez why are you still up?
<eihrul> good question
<eihrul> i don't quite know
<water> i mean everyone knows i'm nuts, but *you*? :)
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<water> hi smoke
<water> ok minor updates to slate docs are ok
<smokie> hi water
<water> darn it, this scheme tutorial won't load right onto my pda
<water> i want to make sure i grok cps
02:20am
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<Kaufmann> Foo!
<hcf> hi kauf
<Kaufmann> howdy
<Kaufmann> I'm learning PPC assembly
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07:00am
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<hcf> hi smoke
<hcf> s/$/\`$/
<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> cute
<smoke`> hcf: no need to add the ` :)
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<hcf> hoy rares
09:30am
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<rares> hey
09:50am
<_ruiner_> hi
10:00am
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water
<smoke> does anyone here know why it's not useful to use DMA transfers to copy from main memory to video memory ?
11:30am
<water> atg: hi
<water> hm gnu smalltalk now also has a jit compiler project
<AlonzoTG> the 386 move string operations are better than DMA
<AlonzoTG> rumor has it that on some processors a tight loop move is even faster than the hardware move!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<water> hm
11:40am
<smoke> alonzo: but if i were to use DMA i could use the cpu moves for other things
<AlonzoTG> DMA SUCKS!!!
<AlonzoTG> You aren't saving any time...
<water> hm maude's a pretty darn small download
<AlonzoTG> Any time you save using DMA is wasted as the CPU needs to wait for the RAM...
<AlonzoTG> DMA only works on the first 1 mb ram for the 8 bit controller or 16 mb for the 32 bit controller...
<AlonzoTG> The DMA controllers are there strictly for backward compatibility...
<smoke> and for soundcards then?
<AlonzoTG> with PCI video cards you can use the card's internal "Bus Mastering" system which is identical to DMA.
<AlonzoTG> BUS mastering is DMA done right...
<smoke> hm brb, rebooting :(
<smoke> atg: thanks for the information
<AlonzoTG> The DMA controller is now in the card so a card equiped with that controller behaves like a CPU...
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<Kaufmann> Hey
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<AlonzoTG> I have never tried to find out exactly how bus mastering is implemented in software.
<water> hey kauf
<Kaufmann> anyone have any thoughts on writing a small OS in PPC asm? Perhaps borrowing the OpenFirmware Forth interpreter?
<water> there was another brazilian here yesterday
<Kaufmann> water, yeah? Who?
<water> hm. some name with brackets around it
<water> he seemed a neophyte, but couldn't speak english wel, so who knows
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<Kaufmann> heh
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<Kaufmann> I've found that most Brazilians are nowhere near as clueful as me :)
11:50am
<water> heh. they're in trouble then ;)
<Kaufmann> heh
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<Kaufmann> I suppose the answer to my first question is "no", then
<Kaufmann> ah well. I'll just go and reinvent the wheel, then.
<water> yeah, open firmware is my only guess
<water> maybe linuxppc?
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<Kaufmann> IIRC, LinuxPPC boots from the MacOS, using an extension to then extirpate the MacOS code from memory and replace it with the Linux kernel image.
<water> ugh
<Kaufmann> yeah
<Kaufmann> big-time
<Kaufmann> I see no better way to do it, then. Short of requiring the startup disk to be exclusively allocated
<Kaufmann> s/then/though/
<Kaufmann> I suppose that no matter what I do, I will end up having to take a lot of the code from the stuff the LinuxPPC guys reverse-engineered, anyway.
<water> cool. distributed actors modelling via re-write logic
<water> (sorry, as always i'm the language guy :)
<Kaufmann> last I heard, actors were fully equivalent to closures with continuations
<water> right
<Kaufmann> so what's the point?
<water> sigh
<water> "what's the point of any programming language if its all jus the lambda calculus?" :)
<Kaufmann> LOL
<water> s/jus/just/
12:00pm
<Kaufmann> heck, Pict is based on the pi calculus, so that argument is invalid :)
<water> simplicity of expression and understandability
<water> i'm trying to pick the best set of abstractions
<Kaufmann> okay
<water> and unify them properly
<water> er... not quite unify
<Kaufmann> but why not just allow the programmer to use whatever abstractions he feels most comfortable with?
<water> i will
<water> but that won't be even possible until the self-hosted native compiler is ready
<Kaufmann> providing him/her with a minimal set of orthogonal (amongst themselves) abstractions and saying "you can go from here"
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<water> kauf: yes, i know what a proglang is :)
<Kaufmann> maybe, if you're a really nice guy, define a "core" language with only that minimal set, and build a "full" language from it
<water> are we on the same page here?
<water> of course i'm going to do that
* bineng/#tunes waves to the crowd
<water> hi bin
<Kaufmann> well, okay then
<Kaufmann> hi Anders
<water> but i also want the end-user to have full efficiency, not layered abstraction
<Kaufmann> what were we talking about again?
<water> slate, i thought
<water> also rewriting stuff and your ppc os work
<Kaufmann> I suppose you can do something similar to what the PARC guys originally proposed for AOP: allowing interfaces to be abstracted upon, while maintaining an efficient, unified and optimised implementation
<Kaufmann> Wow. What's going on with Slashdot moderation?!? I haven't seen a story with stupid comments moderated +5 in weeks now!
<water> actually re-writing covers a lot of aop
<water> but that's beside the point
<Kaufmann> s/story/post/
<Kaufmann> water, yeah, I know
12:10pm
<Kaufmann> An ideal system would recognise isomorphisms between high-level patterns in applications built from the full language and more efficient low-level constructs, and optimise on the fly, while retaining abstraction.
<water> heh
<Kaufmann> what?
<water> it's that tricky "recognize isomorphisms" phrase :)
<water> yes that's one of the ideas behind the hll/lll relationship
<Kaufmann> well, "recognise isomorphism" basically reduces to a bit of cleverness in designing the metasystem, plus a shitload of heuristics. Only a simple matter of programming :)
<water> sort of mapping ideas developed "from the top down" with low-level abstractions built from the "bottom up"
<water> yeah, whatever, or hard AI ;)
<Kaufmann> that's just what I was about to say! :)
<water> wow. how did i guess that? :)
<water> well anyway
<water> so open firmware seems to be your best bet?
<Kaufmann> although hard AI may be pushing it, it might be interesting to consider the possibility of having those non-deterministic problems of logic programming taken care of by a GA-based theorem rewriter.
<Kaufmann> re. Open Firmware: yeah, I suppose. Now I should go look for docs.
<water> yeah, *that specific case*
<water> (i.e. non-det probs of logic prog)
<Kaufmann> yeah, that specific case... but for that specific case, it's very useful. And approachable (from an implementation PoV).
* Kaufmann/#tunes wonders if anyone has ever given a GA-based theorem rewriter the task of optimising its own source code.
<water> yes and you could say the same for lots of specific cases
<water> damn it, why am i continuing with this discussion?
<Kaufmann> I suppose. But I still think that this case is general enough
<Kaufmann> dunno
<Kaufmann> because I have an interesting personality? :)
<water> nah. can't be that ;)
12:20pm
<Kaufmann> brb
<water> so how would i reconcile re-write specification with self-style oo specification?
<water> doh
<Kaufmann> back
<Kaufmann> figured it out?
<water> heh
<water> yeah i wrote the answer on a napkin in a minute :)
<Kaufmann> me, I would implement one in terms of the other, and then start merging features.
<water> yes, it'd be pretty easy to get rewrite rules from lambdas from slate objects
<water> hm i guess the issue is just bootstrapping
<water> i.e. providing the primitives, and gradually weaning from total dependence on them
<Kaufmann> the first 10% of the problem takes 90% of the work, right?
<water> usually
<Kaufmann> put on your thinking cap, then :)
<Kaufmann> I'm reading up on Open Firmware
<Kaufmann> (even though I should be studying linear algebra)
<Kaufmann> so far I had been following the subject pretty well, but then we got into determinants, and the whole mess about commutative rings and K-modules and tensor products lost me.
<water> those are coool
<water> especially the tensors
<Kaufmann> maybe, but I've yet to figure out what the hell they have to do with combinatory analysis.
<water> mmm... inner and outer algebras :)
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12:30pm
<water> hm combinatorics?
<water> well they're definitely part of linalg
<Kaufmann> Apparently so. Factorials and permutations and Newton's binomials and all that.
<water> now *this* is why i like maude... "binary.maude" describes the encoding of natural numbers in binary
<Kaufmann> heh
<water> extending that type of program provides interesting ideas
<water> or at least some good mathematical abstractions
<Kaufmann> y'know, it's too much for my little brain. I'm reading about Maude, PPC assembly, Open Firmware and linear algebra at the same time. This can't work.
<water> heh
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12:40pm
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<smoke_> hi
<water> hey
12:50pm
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<water> hm fp within maude isn't simple to grok
<water> but the syntax isn't difficult
01:10pm
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<water> hm many questions with few definite answers
<water> nothing critical to implementability, though
01:50pm
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<water> how goes it rares?
<rares> I'm on the dvd-discuss@openlaw.org mailing list
<rares> it goes
<rares> I'm psyched
<water> cool
<water> how is that case going anyway?
<rares> kinda icky
<rares> but now it's Valenti vs the world
<water> sorry, who's valenti?
<rares> Jack Valenti poster boy for Motion Picture Association of america
<water> oh
<water> isn't that good, then?
<rares> isn't what good?
<water> that it's him vs the world :)
02:10pm
<rares> yes it is or for the sake of not getting complacent will be
<water> hm
<rares> open source distributed legal research
<water> yes i looked at it
<water> how are you contributing?
<rares> not even distributed.net could have seen this coming
<rares> discussing
<rares> brainstorming
<rares> I habe a craftsmanship for brainstorming
<water> ok i thought it would be difficult to actually have legal expertise that a lawfirm would value
<rares> that's just it
<rares> who cares
<rares> the lawyers need as many ideas as they can get
<water> who cares?
<water> oh
<rares> enough with the self-doubt
<water> since this trial has no real precedent?
<rares> yup
<water> gotcha
<rares> but even then
<rares> look art it from an open source perspective : anyone can contribute ppl will be happy to rip your contribution to shreds cordially and teach you the ropes
<water> i suppose every metaphor in the book has been brought up already
<rares> heh
<water> yes i can see how *eventually* that would result in a working group of brain-stormers
<water> who moderates?
<rares> openlaw.org and their crew fighting on the case
<water> hm
<rares> the point is
<rares> I don't want to get sodomized by the MPAA in the future so I'm gettimng in now
<water> hm
<water> i don't see dvd's as that powerful a medium, but oh well
<rares> I may go blank at code or large structural designs but lewgal arguments heh It's like a giant slice of Chocolate Confusion cake
<rares> fsck dvd's
<rares> it's the MPAA
<water> sure, but if the mpaa relies on dvd's....
<rares> they did this with Betamax
<water> then it's a dinosaur anyway
<water> oh they did?
<rares> no it ain't the medium it's the policy
<water> i guess i'm not up on my copyright confrontation history :)
<water> ok
<water> thx for explaining, btw
<rares> and they're trying to pretend DVD is special cuz it's hyped up ad nauseum
<water> my head happens to be stuck in theoretical computer science crud
<rares> np
<rares> and hey it might malke me more likely to concentrate on code while I'm here
02:20pm
<rares> I'll play politics on the dvd list :)
<water> so does the betamax issue help as a precedent?
<rares> I'd say it does
<rares> Betamax won
<water> heh. but i've never used betamax ;)
<rares> but the most important thing right now is to destroy this idea that DVD is rocket science or even the idea that rocket science is rocket science
* water/#tunes installs a better scheme distro
<rares> it's the hype and glitter and futuristicity that's making this case difficult
<water> hm
<rares> I mean c'mon who would sue someone for copying tapes in a home built stereo?
<water> most likely a tactic used for generations by large corporate entities in tech cases
<water> point
<rares> oldest trick in the book
<water> oh god this scheme distro terminal-based
<rares> beauty of it is I have my own business ideas that are going tro which one?
<water> no wait here's the main environment
<water> yeah it's got some good tools
<water> rares: hm?
<rares> going to make the public so cozy w/ technology Apple will go out of business
<water> oh
<rares> which scheme enviro?
<water> based on which ideas? (sorry i forget which project is yours)
<water> DrScheme
<water> damn, it's end-user based
<rares> hire students anbd gifted kids to seel;l computers and mainrtain them
<water> heh. child labor? :)
<rares> and stick the store front in every mall
<rares> I get to get on every parents good site while in fact I can't stand parents period
<water> hm
<rares> day care w/ real world experience
<water> actually, drscheme seems to have an excellent tutorial-like environment with "levels"
<rares> cool
<water> rares: um what age group
<rares> I forget which scheme goes into SuSE
02:30pm
<rares> good question I'd like to say 15+
<water> ok that's reasonable
<water> omg.... turtle graphics
<rares> here's the crazy part
<rares> everybody tells me to concentrate on one thing
<rares> TURTLE!  lol
<water> just the tutorial, but still
<rares> well fsck everybody I want a master plan
<rares> Turtle was nice in its day
<rares> now I need to get on a diet that can give me the energy to pull this off
<water> hm good abstract interface to the gui widgets
<water> lol
<water> a *diet*?
<rares> 240 lbs
<rares> 6'3"
<water> wow
<rares> I need to eat right
<water> that's not too far overwieght for the height
<rares> cut down on porn breaks
<rares> the most exercise I do is drive Barnes and Noble
<water> um ok
<water> heh. work is enough exercise for me
* water/#tunes says goodbye to DrScheme
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<rares> ?
<rares> sounded like you were delighted with it
<water> nah. the power tools weren't there
<water> i'm not the usual programmer, as most tunesers will tell :)
<rares> power, every body wants power, everybody wants to rule the world
<water> heh
<water> i just want to get my damn arrow idea out
<water> that's all i ask
<water> everything else is a distraction
02:40pm
<water> (hi mibin)
<mibin> )hi water(
<water> heh
<water> weird... rewriting logic has a version of oop and fp
<rares> one thing that needs to happen is a system that obsoletes god damned conditionals
<water> ah here we get to the meat of the argument! >:)
<rares> the conditionals should side effects of the model
<water> what's the criteria for conditionals' obsolescence?
<rares> define A define B define rule of gravity define terrain let all paths(conditionals) from A to B sort them selves out
<water> i mean, you have data-flow and control-flow aspects of programming... each interacts with the other... conditionals consist of transforming data into control
<water> wtf are you talking about?
<rares> heh, okay here goes:
<water> that's just constraint programming
<water> answer in oo: ThingLab
<water> even lisp handles constraints well
-:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES ( <k!14>)
<rares> Many large scale programs are wriiten in hundreds of rules and it's impractical to jeep tracvk of every single situation
<rares> duh that's why lisp pretty much wipes the floor with most oo langs
<water> well if thinglab were properly ported, smalltalk would easily counter lisp as for constraints
<rares> so then what do you want arrow to accomplish
<water> lol
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<water> i didn't think this had anything to do with arrow
<water> arrow relates more to general-purpose (beyond programmatic) information-propagation, which encompasses data-flow and control-flow in a unified way
<rares> everything reduces to input output and transission medium start from there then have fun
<water> no it doesn't
<water> everything *you* deal with reduces to that
<rares> i c
<rares> lol
<rares> :)
<water> you just aren't interested in things that don't fit into the model
<water> you want to read a paper i grabbed on this?
<rares> sure
<water> coders are such fscking closed-minded boobs
<rares> I might as well build a collection of papers
02:50pm
<water> abi icct
<abi> icct is Interaction, Computability, and Church's Thesis at http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/pw/papers/bcj1.pdf
<water> i'm not sure if agt applies
<water> abi agt
<abi> somebody said agt was Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/
<rares> fuck acroreader  opened up
<water> i don't care any more
<water> eihrul: got anything for me right now?
<eihrul> nothing, besides a head-ache
<water> darn
<water> ok well i'll bbl
<water> take care of yourself, eih
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03:00pm
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<rares> well shit
<rares> water's got me on a wild goose chase
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03:10pm
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<present> hrmm
06:20pm
<ult> heh
06:40pm
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<lar1> Hey
07:30pm
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at water
<water> hello
<AlonzoTG> Water have you passed english 102 or equivalent?
<water> yes
<AlonzoTG> you deserve to die for that response!
<water> why?
<AlonzoTG> I flunked out of english 101 4 times before finally passing...
<water> i should die because i worked my tail off academically?
<AlonzoTG> I am almost at the point of flunking out of 102 the second time.
<water> because i abandoned any hope of a normal life in order to learn everything that i knew people would place before me?
<air> AlonzoTG: so? we all know yer an idiot
<AlonzoTG> okay, you're forgiven.
<AlonzoTG> If you were also the homecoming king at your highschool I would be researching ammunition...
<water> well, if you're going to be that sullen about it, i'll mention that i took the class in high school and tested out of my required english credits with perfect scores
<AlonzoTG> =\
<lar1> AlonzoTG:  I thought you were 14?  Are you going to the comunity collage instead of High School?  Or both?
<AlonzoTG> I'm 22 and have been struggeling with college for I've lost track how long....
<air> AlonzoTG: if i were in yer shoes i would bite down on the barrel of a big caliber handgun and pull the trigger
<water> atg: if it makes you feel any better, i *did* drop out
07:40pm
<AlonzoTG> what made you drop out?
<ult> atg is 22?!?!
<water> burn out, lack of a challenge, lack of respect for my ideas, and lack of peers
<AlonzoTG> I was born on the last day of '77, it shouldn't be supprising that I'm 22
<AlonzoTG> I like my math courses, just can't stand the others...
<water> hm anyone want to work on slate? :)
<hcf> water: what needs work?
<AlonzoTG> is slate the replacement for/implementation of arrow?
<air> water: no
<water> hcf: syntax / evaluator mostly
<water> air: shut up
<hcf> water: see, atg asked a faq
<air> they all dumped slate/tunes in favor of dolphin
<water> lol
<water> let's all sing praises to the uK
<water> atg: no
<AlonzoTG> okay, something seperate then...
<lar1> Lets not
<water> atg: i'm going to implement arrow on top of slate
<AlonzoTG> Send me some specs and a pointer to a FTPable source tree and I'll see what I can do...
<AlonzoTG> aah, foundation for then!
<AlonzoTG> =)
<water> atg: for what? arrow?
<AlonzoTG> slate.
<water> abi tell AlonzoTG about slate
<AlonzoTG> So I can see what exactly it is....
<water> there's lisp code for some of it
<AlonzoTG> Okay that answers my question, thanks.
<AlonzoTG> =\
<water> it's on the site
<AlonzoTG> that's another thing I should look into; a lisp environment.
<water> dude you can't possibly not grok the lisp code if you have any clue about programming
<water> get harlequin's lispworks
<water> darn, i forgot to update the faq
<AlonzoTG> I'll look into it someday... I'm more concerned about my OS at the moment, when it's done I'll have time to mess arround with funky VMs...
<ult> lispworks won't run on my box. *sigh*
<water> btw, hcf, how do you feel about requiring explicit access of namespaces e.g. via file-system metaphor operators?
<hcf> good metaphor, me like
<water> ok
<ult> water: That actually doesn't seem so bad as long as slate's macro preprocessor is nice.
<water> ult: hm
<water> well, as long as i can keep the syntax in sexp form, that shouldn't be much of a problem
* ult/#Tunes nods
<ult> That's a good idea. Lisp certainly got the macro stuff right, IMHO.
<water> so far, though, setting an object's variable looks like this:
<water> (myObject (var1 : ./ value))
<AlonzoTG> okay, cool...
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<water> actually, i've been looking into macros today
07:50pm
<air> water: myObject.var1=value is nicer
<water> it turns out that there are lots of different levels of macros, the shallowest being used by C, the purely syntactic used by lisp, and then a third usually restricted to compiler internal semantic transformations
<water> air: true, but it's sugar
<water> air: i'm mos tlikely going to roll that sort of syntax over it
<water> but the syntax i just mentioned is more general/powerful
<air> how?
<water> it allows you to travel through namespaces to get values
<water> and parentheses become namespace stack operators
<water> i'm not entirely satisfied with the arrangement, but it solves previous syntax problems without breaking the slate model
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
<water> one problem with it is that you wind up being tied to a particular namespace structure - the hierarchy
<water> but that's not terrible, because you can relate it to gc
<water> hopefully, i could allow a general system for modules like maude has, where modules can be algebraically composed
<water> but if modules are namespaces, then there's a clash in concepts
08:00pm
<water> so far, the operators i introduced rely on each object being a namespace
<water> but the hierarchy would be determined at run time by the current method context stack
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08:10pm
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<water> it's sort of spooky how much a "hack"-like language concept like equational term-rewriting can effectively handle concurrent oop and fp
08:20pm
<water> i'm sort of leaning towards treating rewrite as lll
08:30pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0215
IRC log ended Tue Feb 15 00:00:02 2000