IRC log started Wed Feb 23 00:00:02 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0223 12:10am -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- NetSplit: wang.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [01:09am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [wang.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: wang.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf05.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- aaronl [aaronl@cm2081635155.cableco-op.com] has joined #tunes What is a reflective computing system? an introspective computer system that can use the knowledge gained through introspection to improve and change itself aaronl: http://www.tunes.org/papers/Glossary/index.html#reflection 02:10am -:- SignOff aaronl: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (woosh) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1037.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1025.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Plundis[130.238.23.252]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-249.s503.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-11.vpn.uib.no]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us207.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh19-port24.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (KVirc 1.0.0 Millennium BETA 3) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn207.delft.casema.net]) -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh5-port48.snet.net] has joined #tunes [rares(rares@nwhn-sh5-port48.snet.net)] help -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn27.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh5-port48.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-37.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh8-port93.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp195.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- redronin [redronin@Af0a1.pppool.de] has joined #tunes hoi 01:20pm lo om 01:30pm OOooommmmm -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [01:32pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn27.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 01:40pm -:- ult [noone@user-38lc6dq.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff redronin: #TUNES (cya - next time!) -:- water [water@tnt-9-114.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes who's here? * water/#tunes wonders why he has to actually say this '(water ult smoke eihrul rares Fufie Plundis abi thomas TUNES smkl) yeah whatever connotation not denotation so does anyone have any slate questions? (comments welcome of course) 02:10pm ok maybe s/slate/tunes in general/ hm recursive message-sends or even co-recursive message-sends, whatever that generalizes to relating to? :) heh. i got a fish to bite slate, silly perhaps for concurrency stuff i'm trying to figure out how to get re-write expressiveness without actually needing rewrite in the grammar to be more precise, all the forms of rewrite, not just any particular example abi: rewrite? no idea, water 02:20pm grr well anyway, it seems fairly straightforward to implement (and of course possibly non-terminating/undecidable) 02:30pm -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-38lc6dq.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- ult_ [noone@user-37kbapj.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes abi: rot13? i guess rot13 is at http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~kominek/rot13/ abi: rewriting somebody said rewriting was at http://www.loria.fr/~vigneron/RewritingHP/ 03:00pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-50-79.s333.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hi atg what's up? -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rares[nwhn-sh8-port93.snet.net]) om -:- n8j [nate@63.20.101.208] has joined #tunes hi nate j i have a qestion that may sound kinda stupid hi np 03:10pm ok im just messing around with making my own little opperating sys for fun and i just started and i can link my kernel when i use ld to link it says undifinded refrance to 'printf' * AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at n8j that's for knowing how to use LD. =\ take it easy, atg sorry I spent nearly 6 months trying to figure out how to use LD and then I gave up. =P what do you use? or recomend nothing... I'm going to make the binaries with NASM and then put them togeather with DOS COPY command... =P that's the state I'm at right now... LD can BYTE me. -:- SignOff ult_: #TUNES (Leaving) there are much better os-coders that frequent #tunes than AlonzoTG unfortuntely, i'm not on of them :) impossible. I have been studying OS coding for 6 years, they can't be better than me, just not fucking possible. anyway, maybe air's site could help you abi: borg? bugger all, i dunno, water address? abi air? rumour has it air is aka _QZ/liar grrr abi: qz? wish i knew, smkl * water/#tunes kicks the infobot abi: _qz? i heard _qz was aka air/liar, the creator of BRiX, and webmaster of http://www.qzx.com or a tyrant or a mormon water, what the address to airs site? the one just mentioned abi: QZ is QZ used to be here, but then we found out that he is liar, and he vanished into air heh how how's it going, smkl? hmm i haven't done anything useful for 3/2 weeks now hm why not? ugh! I have been trying to load slashdot for 10 fucking minutes... It just shows the header of the page and then just hangs saying 11k at 2bytes/sec. yes /. is slow today the eschelon news site is profoundly slashdotted. -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh8-port93.snet.net] has joined #tunes school and stuff ... and something has just made me inactive what's the something? holy shit that's the first time i survived a Netscape hard drive thrashing session dunno ... just tired 03:20pm what? some girlfriend tired you out? :) AAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH /me is suffering from /. deprivation.... atg: thanks for sharing my ISP lost a backbone fibre yesterday... -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us734.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hey hcf hey sup? smkl: it's contagious... i need to buy a new computer yes. noise (=laziness) is definitely contagious all forms of laziness? -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (KVirc 1.0.0 Millennium BETA 3) * water/#tunes shrugs use a strictness analysis i saw this recent article on a study of chat in wired i think that demonstrated interesting (i think obvious) things about how chat rooms can promote worthwhile work what about wasting hours per day in pointless debates? smkl: that happens outside of irc, as well http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,34448,00.html what's been wrong with the internet the last few days? atg: ask somewhere else I havn't been able to access 3 of my favorite sites! where should I ask? AlonzoTG: anywhere else but here 03:30pm what are your fav sites? =\ water: when u had trouble getting abi to say the rewriting factoid, u could of used 'abi: scan for rewrit' oh ok weird. this cs site has been hacked to re-direct to an online gambling casino 03:40pm btw, smalltalk/self allows an empty symbol hcf, can you locate a paper titled "A Taste of Rewriting"? i can try the title looks familiar, but perhaps i'm recalling yet another 'a taste of' k http://www-sal.cs.uiuc.edu/~nachum/papers/taste-fixed.ps.gz yeah that domain is (for now) as casino n/m i confused it 03:50pm other rewrite intro poop, http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~guy/intro-to-fm.html thx http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~tammet/equational/ can anyone here summarize petri nets? hm n/m i found good info 04:00pm hm thanks to petri nets i now see why people assume a lot of crap about arrow is anyone here a petri nets fan? 04:10pm I'm not a fan.. but have used it what do petri nets offer that state-diagrams or data-flow don't? it's mostly a generalisation of those state-machines.. not disjunct from it s/those/ it is also formalised and there is good documentation and examples where is a white paper? old petri's phd? ;) yeah which isn't online http://www.daimi.aau.dk/PetriNets/ i think odp has a section for 'em yeah that's where i've been searching from (the petri nets site, not odp) you might want to pay the local library a visit no, odp doesn't have it I am sure they have books about the topic that's great but my budget is already taxed by books you pay at libraries? heh no, i don't live close enough to a university americans are a funny people ;) which reminds me to pay the local library a visit and renew some odd 20 books i guess i was thinking of yahoo ( http://dir.yahoo.com/Computers_and_Internet/Programming_Languages/Colored_Petri_Nets/ ), links of which u'v probly seen already 04:20pm but borrowing books from a library is free, no? libraries haven't been commercialised I hope water: in irc/1999.0816 i seemingly gave u some petri related links yes, but taking the time to visit the library and request a book takes valuable time fair enough.. my local library is only a five minute walk from my office yeah, and you live nearby a major cs institution, iirc yup I might of course drop by my advisor's office and borrow books there as well wow. i can hardly imagine having an "advisor" it's more like "misleader" :) he is at cornell this semester anyway and I have a key to his office though s/and/but/ 04:30pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us734.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff n8j: #TUNES (Ping timeout for n8j[63.20.101.208]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us734.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z!) foo quux something to be discussed, i take it? of course on rewriting? among other things, yes unfortunately i don't know where to begin got questions? 05:10pm well, not sure enough what you're doing with rewriting yet to ask questions nothing major, just trying to find it's limits i mentioned recursive message-code earlier that would certainly invoke rewrite, but we'd need a primitive for concurrency (fork? or union?) to have it done right what do you think? i think recursive message-code as rewriting could use an example :) (conceptual) hm well basically i'm just talking about having a message-call be potentially recursive 05:20pm that's established but doesn't say much more than "recursive message-code" yeah well i can't think of any instance where recursive messages are used in oolanggs perhaps elaborating where this particular recursion happens where, how, whatever appropriate bleh, research papers suck * eihrul/#tunes gasps. well it doesn't seem to be a problem to, within a message, clone the original method, bind arguments, and call that message oh the reason an example seems weird is that mutable object state makes the semantics a bit tricky 05:30pm yeah, academic papers really suck ok topic switch to? well i was thinking that the container-type objects used in slate would also be shape descriptions like how we discussed reifying references * eihrul/#tunes is not sure what water means by 'shape descriptions.' our objects themselves are sets, but it's not hard to make recursive list structures out of them well you have sets, arrays, linked-lists, graphs, collections and things like byte-streams How do you stream crap efficiently? these things obviously have 'state', but in general they're just containers atg: using objects that act as streams by spitting out the elements of the stream water fountains... 05:40pm the elements can be retrieved on demand by passing a message "give me the next one" to the object, which returns the next element of the stream of course, there should be many ways to access a stream like getting all mouse events for a time quantum eeek; producer consumer! =\ of course, there should be a good facility (i.e. in stdlib) for piping streams what's wrong with that? i don't see how accessing a stream would necessarily be limited to one type of organization hm piping streams sounds a bit like monads you could just as well augment a producer consumer with a publish subscribe :) roughly the same thing not necessarily but i would prefer a general framework push vs. pull * AlonzoTG/#tunes contemplates all the evil crap that I'll need to implement to make that work..... * AlonzoTG/#tunes contemplates how usefull re-directing the console stream was yesterday in DOS... or rather, pull vs. push ok so describe push in message-semantics an object registers (subscribes) with the stream to be notified of successive elements in the stream and the stream notifies (publishes) the element to all subscribers basically, event notification um message-semantics yeah well describe the message-passing and state required (i already grok events) n/m i'll do it * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. nothing too complicated, notification is just a message send subscription is handled through a collection of subscribers yes it can be very complicated can be built atop producer-consumer the problem occurs when you have a lot of messages being passed around in real-time due to a complicated event system and i don't think it works like "producer-consumer" at all rmm.. it can almost be an extension in pc, the stream receives the request for the next object(s) where the publisher is the consumer 05:50pm in push, the stream *sends* the object(s) as messages to the consumer exactly, you have the reverse relationship it's not an extension at all producer-publisher-subscriber, i don't necessarily see it as the reverse well, EXPLAIN with objcts and messages like anyone in oo does it well, the publisher directly requests elements from the producer stream and whenever its requests are answered, it then sends messages to all the subscribes with what was consumed from the producer this infers that the publisher is blocked on the producer that's not an extension that's piping middle-man :) well it's a hack * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. it's my opinion none-the-less i could really use a vacation from? me? work? both go for it but seriously we shouldn't need such a gap between stream ideas well, can the delivery mechanism be suitably abstracted from the producers and consumers themselves? you sound like you're talking about c++ this should be ridiculously simple * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. 06:00pm you make it ridiculously complex lol by requiring it to be reduced to message-passing? no by making an argument out of something that doesn't merit it :) * eihrul/#tunes is not quite sure why this discussion started anyway. well no one else seems to have anything to talk about (case in point, read the logs) hmm... I would like you to review the message passing systems in my OS when the next version of the specs come out in a few days... eihrul: so what shall we discuss then? dunno i thought so so how's the lisp code coming along? :) it will, i suppose -:- ult [noone@user-37kbash.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes hold on a sec... i don't suppose you were thinking of streams implemented *outside* the language, were you? nope just making sure -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-37.vpn.uib.no]) so how would you try to unify the push and pull models? i think concurrency has been ignored too much as an issue and probably affects this question -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes 06:10pm * eihrul/#tunes hmms. yes, concurrency is a big issue for push though, actually, no more than for pull when did richard stevens die? yes i think it affects them equally :) in fact, i think it helps unify them quite a lot, which is why i brought it up air: last year -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust130.tnt3.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes water: will see if i can get to a rewrite this week... but as for now, have lots of stuff i'm behind on 06:20pm like school? not signifigantly okay, because school is important * eihrul/#tunes cackles. huh? high school so? $cholar$hips i'm not getting any, don't worry por que no? nor do i particularly believe i deserve them Eihrul is a rich punk. not quite, ult * ult/#Tunes grins so which is it? rich or punk? * ult/#Tunes slips a stiletto between eihrul's ribs. (Since both of us agree murder is a-ok ;) well, i've been called an ass-hole but i'm not necessarily rich eihrul: but mommy and daddy are paying right? :) * eihrul/#tunes slips a machete between ult's arteries. * ult/#Tunes channels Dr.Spock and gives eihrul the Vulcan Death Grip. air: some of it but there's also the matter of principle... MISTER SPOCK!!! (Dr.Spock was a child development expert) 06:30pm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[1Cust130.tnt3.sfo3.da.uu.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us734.javanet.com]) okay i finally found a good intro to rewrite abi: rewriting intro is at http://www-sal.cs.uiuc.edu/~nachum/papers/taste-fixed.ps.gz -:- lar1 [larman@2Cust39.tnt31.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes snatches it. * lar1/#tunes looks at community collage course catalog and becomes upset that he didnt take action and complete enrollment for this semester! bbl -:- water [water@tnt-9-114.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] don't be upset... I've been enroled for 3 *YEARS* =\ I keep flunking shit left and right... lar1: the courses are pretty lame eihrul: Thats what it looks like... 06:40pm But my manifesto: I go to school to get good grades. Why? So I can go to collage. Why? So I can get letters appended to my name so people think that I know somthing about somthing. yes, that's the general point there Of course I should hope a good deal of learning also happens inthis proccess, but alas. Public schools in California are no longer somting to be proud of. well, learning could happen independently of a school given adequate materials which for the same price you will pay for college could be purchased 2**16 times over Independent study? Or totally without collage affiliation? book learning, dude Hmm thats still expensive (at least for a 14 year old) you're neglecting... in college, you pay for books *and* tuition *and* housing *and* food *and* other living costs True *and* for the piece of paper but alas, people want to ensure that you've wasted your $100k on that paper so they can feel safe Hmm Well as long as the parents pay for it ;) eh you're neglecting that you have to sit through lectures, take notes, exams, labs, papers, etc in addition to reading :P and not at your own pace i might add but the lowest common denominator But the idea is that all that is easy if you already know your shit so? why waste 4 years of your life sitting through 4 years of haze? 4 years is 1/20 of your life, dude Because, sadly, you need those appended letters if you wanna make it in life. (at least thats what they tell us) no don't confuse 'make it in life' with 'survive in pseudo-capitalist representative democracy' that's should be a crime to attribute our culture with life in general Yeah well if you don't survive in culture you won't survive in life -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us734.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 06:50pm lar1: move to another country start your own take over one! I want to start my own I haven't found a your-own-country-HOWTO yet though All I need is a small island with zero population and a few billion dollars why money? To build gah... people did it without money before Uhhh, how do I build a city with no money? don't build a city just build a Discordian Temple with the help of the Most High Goddess Eris. What the hell kind of life would that be? The rest will fall into place. Oh...and if all your building end up being made out of hotdog buns...you did something wrong =/ Heh (You must understand Principia Discordia to get that one) free food unless it rains ult: Is that from Principia Cybernetica? rmm, no though perhaps in some way it could be eihrul: That makes me, you, and Downix that want to form a new country. Hmm. I am supreme dictator, you and downix are semi-supreme dictator and the rest are underlings! ;) rmm, no i'd overthrow you and declare a socialist government Ummm, no om Socialism _doesn't_ work buddy * AlonzoTG/#tunes just wants to found a monestary. Principia Discordia is a very enlightening book. uh, you're fucked then It's basically religion the way it should be. because our neighbors do well with it ult: What is it about? lar1: It's a religious doctrine. lar1: And it's written on 3 different levels. lar1: finland, canada, etc eirhul: Oh? Doesn't socialism == communism? no Oops... hrmm :) that's just a US taboo i suppose anything not 'democracy' is 'communist' and 'evil' ult: Of what religion? 07:00pm Why...Discordianism, of course. -:- lar2 [larman@dialup-209.245.129.218.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes err Note to self: Get rid of current isp... -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[2Cust39.tnt31.sfo3.da.uu.net]) -:- lar2 is now known as lar1 eihrul: Do you grok calclus? * ult/#Tunes groks calculus well, differential/integral calculus at a low level ;) yeah y? Know of any books/websites that are pretty good? I got ahold of this old school book and ugh! I was lost when they started talking about limits. Acccually worst then lost. One minute I thought I grokked it then next, I seemed not to. limits are -easy-. well, limit specifies a value that is approached but never reached eihrul: It can be reached eihrul: It just isn't necessarily reached no yes no it just so happens that the limit happens to coincide what could possibly be reached :P