IRC log started Fri Feb 25 00:00:03 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0225
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<LTH> hi
-:- SignOff LTH: #TUNES (i am not as think as you confused i am)
04:50am
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<hcf> hmm
07:00am
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at hcf
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* smoke/#tunes is back from being away: did you miss me?
* smoke/#tunes is back from being away: did you miss me?
* smoke/#tunes is back from being away: did you miss me?
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<Fare> gakuk
<smoke> hi. what does gakuk mean? it's french?
<eihrul> its the inverse of kukag
<Fare> it means what people agree it to mean. And no, it's not french, for standard definitions of "french"
<eihrul> a powerful word, indeed
<AlonzoTG> om
04:30pm
<Fare> personally, it's a word I use on irc when I reach a place where people stand with whom I haven't been connected for a while.
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04:40pm
<smoke> i'm sure it's an abbreviation which means terrible things :)
<eihrul> uh, not quite
<smoke> have to get some sleep now .. bye! :)
<eihrul> unless you consider the situation fare described above to be terrible (if you have some sort of phobia)
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z!)
<Fare> Greetings, Amicable Knowledgeful Unforgettable Kin ?
04:50pm
<bineng> heh
<Fare> ehe, be!
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05:00pm
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<bineng> Fare: ?
<Fare> ?
05:10pm
<bineng> I know, let's all shout "context"
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<FEARFACTORY2001> hello
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on FEARFACTORY2001
<water> hm hello
<water> ff: are you interested in tunes?
<bineng> hello
<water> hi bin, eih, atg, lar
<FEARFACTORY2001> what kind of tunes ?
* water/#tunes points at the topic
<water> www.tunes.org
<mibin> hehe
<water> hi mib
<mibin> great mp3 leetch site
<mibin> hi water =)
<lar1> Hey water, I went to the libaray yesterday... didn't see a whole bunch on lingusitcs.  I saw somthing about "syntatic structures" or somthing like that...
<water> lar: yeah that book would be good to start with, i'm guessing
<FEARFACTORY2001> u on webtv water ?
<water> ff: hell no
<FEARFACTORY2001> u don't like webtv ?
<lar1> water:  Ok.  I'll check it out
<water> ff: if i haven't already made it obvious, No
<Fare> what's webtv?
<FEARFACTORY2001> mind if i ask why ?
<mibin> the tv used by spiders
<water> oic, ff2001 is a webtv guy
<water> look, ff, this channel is about www.tunes.org and related programming projects
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<lar1> Fare:  WebTV is a Microsoft device that attaches to your TV and gives you internet access.  Very limited.  No java or anything.  Expensive.
<bineng> yik
<bineng> evil
<Fare> an expensive thing that attaches to a TV? Like, a Matrox Marvel G400 ?
<lar1> Fare:  No, its like a game console except for web browsing.
<Fare> sounds like Windows.
<water> no, WebTV = lambda (TV) (set-top box)
<AlonzoTG> this guy should be kicked: 
<AlonzoTG> <AlonzoTG> Do you even know what DOS is?
<AlonzoTG> <FEARFACTORY2001> no 
<AlonzoTG> <AlonzoTG> Do you even know what DOS is?
<AlonzoTG> <FEARFACTORY2001> no 
<AlonzoTG> <AlonzoTG> Do you even know what DOS is?
<AlonzoTG> <FEARFACTORY2001> no 
<water> atg: POINT TAKEN\
<AlonzoTG> oops, pasted too many times...
<AlonzoTG> accident, 
05:20pm
<Fare> what is DOS?
<mibin> denial of service
<water> heh
<Fare> abi: DOS?
<abi> DOS is denial of service
<lar1> Fare:  Disk Operating System 
<mibin> hehe
<Fare> Dummy Operating System
<Fare> Apple DOS 3.3, anyone?
<water> woo hoo!
<lar1> Yeah!
<lar1> ProDOS!
* bineng/#tunes excuses himself and leaves
-:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES ( <k!14>)
<water> yeah this is getting pretty silly
<Fare> water: can you explain me intricacies of BETA patterns?
<water> hm
<water> i don't know about "intricacies" as such, but sure, i'll explain
<water> have you read the Mjolner Beta Intro, btw?
<Fare> are patterns use-once, or are they actually pattern-generators (like lambdas) ?
<Fare> I read it LOOOONG ago
<water> pattern-generators
<water> via inheritance
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<water> (and instantiation)
<Fare> much like Self prototypes, then?
<Fare> they kind of look like open-lambda's
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<water> i don't know about comparing them to self's prototypes
<water> but yes the analogy works
<water> they're also procedural
<water> (of course)
<water> the weird thing (intricacy?) about patterns is due to the keyword "inner"
<Fare> (actually, I think one reproach people made about BETA was that you couldn't partially close a pattern)
<water> which allows you to make generic patterns
<Fare> inner? generic patterns? not sure I've seen them. What are they?
<water> hm yes that's definitely a deficiency
<water> the inner keyword basically allows you to specify "virtual patterns" (like virtual functions) and implement the code to replace "inner" in the sub-patterns
<water> it's not a very flexible idea
05:30pm
<water> but the people coming to beta from the c++ camp appreciate it
<water> someone mentioned somewhere about using multiple "inner"s in the same pattern, but i didn't quite grok how it worked
<water> also, beta allows the parts of objects to be full patterns, so that they can inherit as well
<water> s/objects/patterns/
<water> i also happened to like the library feature that the exception-handling library made full use of pattern expressiveness
* Fare/#Tunes reads the slate pages
<water> there's a lot that i haven't added yet
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<water> will he come back?
<Fare> his problem
<water> heh
<water> i spent yesterday on the ship trying to figure out the best way to code bmo's for slate
<Fare> I read that you like geometry...
<water> most definitely
<Fare> bmo's ?
<Fare> my father is a geometrist
<water> abi: bmo?
<abi> bmo is Behavioral Meta-Object (slate)
<water> you've mentioned that
<Fare> what does the bmo do?
<Fare> water: when you come to Paris, I'll introduce you my father
<water> there's a paper i got the idea from
<water> it intercepts all messages and processes them
<Fare> messages?
<water> on a per-receiver basis
<Fare> it that one of these emn.fr things?
<water> slate's messages aren't quite the ordinary kind of messages
<water> emn??
<Fare> Ecole des Mines de Nantes -- Pierre Cointe and his guys
<water> hm don't recall if they got into that
<Fare> water: have you read in the logs about my architecture paper?
05:40pm
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<water> most of the papers i've read call the concept merely a meta-object
<water> fare: no
<Fare> Pierre Cointe did a lot of meta-object stuff, in ObjVLisp then in Smalltalk
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<water> oh yes
<water> no, this is slightly different
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<water> btw, i realized that my arrow idea will fit in as a "structural meta-object"-type idea
<water> but i'm not ready to present that idea just yet
<Fare> ok. I'm interested when you have something
<Fare> water: do you think you could constructively criticize my current ramblings about system architecture?
<water> anyway, where in the logs do you talk about your arch paper?
<water> maybe
<Fare> dunno. last week, I think
<hcf> oh yeah, that SSSSSS discussion
<Fare> yup, SSSSSS
<hcf> water: should be 2000.0215
<water> cool thx
<Fare> wait a minute, rebooting on new disk
<water> yeah, the one day i never read
<water> k
* water/#tunes -> afk
<air> Fare: u know anything about sendmail?
<Fare> air: one thing: stay away from it if you can
<air> anything else? :)
<air> > > > Feb 23 16:01:42 borg sendmail[2860]: PAA02492: to=<qz@aros.net>,
<air> > > > delay=00:31:29, xdelay=00:02:42, mailer=smtp, relay=aros.net,
<air> > > > stat=Deferred: Name server: aros.net: host name lookup failure
<air> like what that error is from
<hcf> air: ask this privately
05:50pm
* water/#tunes has returned
<water> weird... sssss
<water> too much noise there
<water> <rares> water is an abstraction inversion
<water> <Fare> :)
<water> i don't even know what to say about that :)
<water> was there some signal in the SSSSSS discussion that i was supposed to pick up on?
<water> btw, fare, code in slate will be data-flow at a slot-expression granularity
<water> at least, that's where i'm going with the spec
06:00pm
<water> ping
<water> *ahem* is anyone still listening?
<hcf> pong
<hcf> abi: beep Fare
<abi> i beeped Fare
<eihrul> you rang?
<water> just wondering why all these people are on the channel and don't seem to be interested in it
<eihrul> must they be?
<water> and mutablility vs immutablity and their interactions bugs the hell out of me
<water> s/bugs/bug/
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> they do indeed
<eihrul> (mutability vs. immutability)
<water> hm
<water> i pulled in a lot of the research i've done on arrow to consider the issues, and it's not simple at all
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<water> a visual interface to the data-flow streams would make things a bit simpler to sort, but the default strategy for handling it isn't intuitively obvious
06:10pm
<water> i considered structural mo's for quite a while and found myself dangerously close to turning slate into arrow
<water> otoh i did find a simple solution for strategy, though not something that everyone would like
* water/#tunes tries to find a way to express it
<water> s/a/the best/
<water> well here's a shot...
<water> we don't just want "mutable" and "immutable", we also want to say whether the access to the object is either "active" or "passive"
<water> object access is obviously governed by the presence or absense of the "set" accessor, which the bmo guards
<water> the simple solution is to make every "set" a unique branch
<water> now, mutability can actually be a separate issue from this
<water> not a property of the meta-behavior of the accessors, but a property of the reference itself
<water> however there are still many ways to interpret what mutability means
<water> the means i find most expressive and powerful is to have references be lambdas (full slate objects)
06:20pm
<water> and that the code library should provide lots of tutorials and template-style libraries for commonly-used programming structures
<water> btw, all of these issues relate to the xerox parc idea of "open implementation"
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Fare> what's passive vs active? as in, has a side-effecting thread  running?
* Fare/#Tunes insists on 
<Fare> side-effecting
<water> no, it's whether an object has rights to mute an object's value that it references as a slot
<water> which relates to side-effecting
<Fare> hum
<water> there's a lot of issues with the meta-behavioral system that haven't been satisfactorily worked out
<water> s/there's/there're/
06:30pm
<water> hello?
<water> are there any comments from you all?
<Fare> hum
<Fare> you're trying to do some kind of effect-typing of objects?
<water> yes
<water> however, i'd like it to be modular
<Fare> there have been work on effect-typing, but it's hairy enough that people only use it in automatically inferencing optimization passes of compilers
<water> that's what the bmo idea is for
* water/#tunes nods
<Fare> they say the type expressions they get for non-trivial code is just huge
<Fare> and not manually manageable
<water> i agree
<Fare> never tried myself, but up to a first approx, I trust these guys
* Fare/#Tunes can now erase /dev/hda
<water> well i'm looking mostly at "refactoring" the process
<Fare> refactoring which process?
<water> of describing the effect type of an object
<water> or system of objects
<Fare> ok
<Fare> hum. time to goto 3053.
<Fare> will you be there tomorrow?
<water> for some time, yes
<Fare> ok.
<Fare> really gotta go. Nice to talk to you
06:40pm
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<water> wow. no arguments, even
<water> hm. according to the .plan, i'm putting a lot of features into the bmo hierarchy and all the objects that generate / manipulate it
<eihrul> ?
<water> how are you doing today, eih?
* eihrul/#tunes shrugs.
<water> have you been following what i've been spilling into the channel?
<eihrul> somewhat
<water> do you have any ideas/comments/suggestions/questions/etc?
<eihrul> other than that i'm going to have a hell of a time making an optimizing slate compiler? :)
06:50pm
<water> heh
<water> just concentrate on eval.lisp please
<eihrul> that was the .plan
<eihrul> though i think right now i'm going to go read
<water> ok
<eihrul> or atleast try to
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
07:00pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<water> cool. i got mail from another arrow fan
07:40pm
<water> hm.... equations as objects
<water> hm
<water> well, bbl
<water> time to unwind downtown
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08:20pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0226
IRC log ended Sat Feb 26 00:00:02 2000