IRC log started Sat Mar 11 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0311 -:- terror7 [terror7@dial20.b2.tnt2.was.dc.freei.net] has joined #tunes -:- terror7 [terror7@dial20.b2.tnt2.was.dc.freei.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-33.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-135.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes foo 12:50am xyzzy hey foof do you think it's odd to consider objects to be best represented by the functional expressions which produced them? of course i expect "no" :) I have done my LC so no lc? lambda calculus ah well it seems the only object expressions in slate are those types... instead of objects as lists but it is common to make an optimised representation when one goes from experimental to a more practical language right i can easily provide a "flattened" representation which represents the minimal expression required to produce the same object s/which represents/for/ and that representation can easily be turned into a list-representation, but it just won't be a first-class language value 01:00am can the flattened represenatation be used to make a bitwise copy? hm that's usually faster when creating many objects than calling and interpreting some data yes in much the same way well slate's going to have cloning everywhere for regular ints, floats, strings, .. bitwise copying makes sense if it helps to do a real bitwise copy transparently, it'll be done sure i might allow the expression sequence order to determine the low-level order of the slots, but this might not be desirable since it may be beneficial to order the slots dynamically based on run-time feedback for the purposes of efficiency 01:10am actually, i think it would just make code a bit unclear, since people would re-order code just to get better representations instead of sticking with abstractions is that necessarily bad? well it could obfuscate code it could.. but one should take a programmer seriously 01:30am well perhaps the mechanism for re-ordering the low-level representation should be somewhere else like in mobius (where it belongs i think) if the programmer knows how to best represent his data he should be allowed to tune the system to allow for that representation yes but i don't think it belongs at the language level the programmer should know he's reflecting when he does it how about allowing a meta-class specifying how the slots in the object should be organised? i know it's less lisp-ish to do it that way, but i really want to maintain the object-as-set metaphor ie a list, array, bitfields, etc s/class/object yeah that could work, since it specifies search algorithm for method look-up although it's non-portable of course if you manually do it (i.e. a singleton meta-space) if the low-level primitives are in the language it allows a meta-object to customise it precisely yeah they'll be there and it should be done manually for the meta-objects which needs it right, but that brings something up but maybe have a few "normal" options, e.g list, array, .. you'd then have to coordinate changes in the object with the bmo customizations right, sort of a higher-order function bmo? abi bmo i think bmo is Behavioral Meta-Object (slate) yes, you will need coordinate changes with bmos, protocols used in slate, etc s/need/need to/ hm of course it'd be best to have some way to do it that maintains the direct-manipulation idea which is like saying that the bmo customizations are part of the object in a sense AMOP is pretty thorough on this issue and they present a few examples where normal slots just won't cut it well as soon as my isp's http server is back up, i'm ordering amop 01:40am i suppose amop addresses all kinds of issues where you make special mods to a set of mo's for a given object, and then can swap out any mo for another without loosing the special modifications 01:50am what'd be nice is a general framework for doing things like that 02:00am -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn11.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hm ok problems with using state in computation boil down to properly handling the muting of functions 02:40am the question is what constitutes 'proper'; perhaps something involving linear logic would clarify 02:50am -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- water [water@tnt-10-135.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- smkl_ is now known as smkl -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (My damn controlling terminal disappeared!) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-136-24.s24.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port82.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port82.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segflossed] -:- ^^pasha^^ [STARSHIP@asy232.as54.sol.superonline.com] has joined #tunes -:- ^^pasha^^ [STARSHIP@asy232.as54.sol.superonline.com] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- eihrul [lee@216.24.141.42] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh4-port172.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Read error to rares[nwhn-sh4-port172.snet.net]: EOF from client) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.244.105.171.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[dialup-209.244.105.171.SanJose1.Level3.net]) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn11.delft.casema.net]) -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn36.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[216.24.141.42]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp122.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (woosh and i'm off) -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES (yeah very productive <k!14>) -:- ult [ult@user-37kbat8.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn36.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[15dyn36.delft.casema.net]: EOF from client) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ult [ult@1Cust247.tnt3.nashville.tn.da.uu.net] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[1Cust247.tnt3.nashville.tn.da.uu.net]) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.128.106.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- C-Thru [blahhalt@slip-32-100-59-144.tx.us.prserv.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp122.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp140.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- C-Thru [blahhalt@slip-32-100-59-144.tx.us.prserv.net] has left #tunes [] -:- lar2 [larman@dialup-209.245.139.130.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[dialup-209.245.128.106.SanJose1.Level3.net]) -:- lar2 is now known as lar1 -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ult [ult@user-38lc6c8.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.139.130.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- ult__ [ult@user-38lc64q.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc6c8.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- ult__ is now known as ult -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- PeaJay [pj@d200.as1.eatn.oh.voyager.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff PeaJay: #TUNES (using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/981227-pre0.9) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-133-211.s211.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial795.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Foo Bar! 08:40pm wuzzup lar1? Not much... looking for drivers for an old samsung moniter... oh, how fun :) Yup well I tell you... today's a great day to be a fascist dictator Oh? yep * Kaufmann/#tunes is the Fascist Moderator of the talkback forums at osopinion.com Heh... ok... :) 08:50pm Just now an asshole was bothering me, I edited his message. He replied complaining about censorship, I edited his message so that it said "Free speech: your freedom to speak, our freedom to push the "delete" button." Heh Thats mean well, he was an asshole -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[dialup-209.245.139.130.SanJose1.Level3.net]: Connection reset by peer) 09:00pm -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.139.130.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes 1 driver down... 1 to go om! coolerz! Heh * AlonzoTG/#tunes is working on bootsektor installer. Umm, I am talking about my win32 box my bros accually 09:10pm I always join #f-cpu first. oh... Thats great anyway... -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us133.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.139.130.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes 09:20pm Well, Letterman will be on soon, so I best be off Later! -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (A stranger is just an asshole you haven't met yet. -- Meet the Fascist Moderator at www.osopinion.com) om 09:30pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp140.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes eihrul! 10:10pm -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (Ping timeout for air[p0wer.qzx.com]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- witten_ [witten@fire2.csua.ucla.edu] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Plundis[130.238.23.252]) -:- witten_ [witten@fire2.csua.ucla.edu] has left #tunes [] -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0312 IRC log ended Sun Mar 12 00:00:02 2000