IRC log started Sat Mar 18 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0318 -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- water [water@tnt-10-77.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <water> is anyone still around? <hcf> i'm here, as requested <water> thx <water> did you read any of the emails i sent? <hcf> i read 'em <water> what do ya think? <hcf> over my head as usual <water> damn <water> well n/m then, thanks very much for sticking arounf <water> s/arount/around/ <water> hm you noticed the debian crap in the logs i see <hcf> quite insulting <hcf> esp since fare partook <water> i was just about to say that :) <water> hm so is today some sort of weird holiday/party day? <hcf> dunno <water> i heard someone mention green beer 12:50am <water> oh well <hcf> do u expect Fare to actually do any refining of tunes docs? <water> sorry hcf the conversation i had planned i am not ready to go into <water> no not really >>> water [water@tnt-10-77.tscnet.net] requested PING 953369457 from TUNES <water> i thought over a lot of issues tonight and i'm not sure where to take it aside from going forward with slate and then moebius/arrow <hcf> this relates to the tunes hll spec? <water> well slate certainly does <hcf> does anyone care about the tunes-hll? <water> ah that reminds me that i'm probably near ready to finish the slate as hll post <water> i think iepos does but he thinks combinators are everything <water> as well as bill tanksley <hcf> fare should <hcf> and tril <water> tril's busy with college it seems and fare's busy in his insane little phd world <hcf> what happened to beholder? <water> he said he would drop in on the channel sometimes but i've not seen him since <water> abi seen beholder <abi> beholder was last seen on IRC 14 days, 7 hours, 19 minutes and 8 seconds ago, saying: HEhe [Fri Mar 3 17:35:52 2000] <water> QED <water> it was odd that i saw this really interesting book on the psychology of mathematical infinities but there was no mention anywhere of induction or co-induction in it <water> go figure <water> i really need to put in that formal statement to the navy about me having a second job of sorts <water> it might make a big difference in how i'm treated at work <hcf> second job? <water> but unpaid open-source advocacy of high-level semantics hardly counts as a second job for them <hcf> wasnt/isnt arrow a job too? <water> i have to say something formally however <water> yes that's included 01:00am <water> perhaps i should throw in inventor as a term <water> with luck it will make enough of a signal for them to try to get rid of me <hcf> dalvarez: u awake? <water> hm i beeped him, but no response <hcf> he arrived recently, should be alive * Fufie/#tunes yaawns <water> good morning fufie <Fufie> good morning :) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-77.tscnet.net]) 01:10am -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-33.vpn.uib.no]) <hcf> ltr -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) * dalvarez/#tunes has been in school until now and at your service... 01:30am -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-123.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes <nate37> hello -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-123.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] 03:00am -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-143.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes <nate37> ah... that's better.. <nate37> hello? <nate37> anybody alive? 03:10am -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn169.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes <nate37> hello <dalvarez> nate37: what's up? <nate37> nothing. <nate37> why? <dalvarez> cause you're asking three times in a row for attention what makes everyone think you have to say something extremely relevant <nate37> hmmm <nate37> sorry.. just bored. 03:30am <dalvarez> + Etymologically, reflection is first about turning back the image of another object; since the phenomenon was <dalvarez> mostly used to see oneself with mirrors (the alternate spelling reflexion is preferred for the optical <dalvarez> phenomenon), it has come to mean applying to oneself (see reflexive). From there, it has come to mean not <dalvarez> just to see oneself's physical image, but also to examine one's own mental state (early 17th century), and <dalvarez> quickly applied to thinking in general (late 17th century), and has been used for well considered thought in <dalvarez> general, although still keeping as an alternative this meaning of thinking about one's thoughts. <dalvarez> + In Computer Science, Reflection is the domain of programs that (effectively or potentially) describe and <dalvarez> manipulate "themselves", or other related programs. This notion extends to programs the philosophical notion <dalvarez> of Reflection of human thought that can apply to itself. The idea is not quite new, and has been used by the <dalvarez> founding fathers of formal logic and computer science in their early theorems on the power and limits of <dalvarez> reasoning and computation (Cantor, Gvdel, Turing, etc). <dalvarez> + We sometimes say reflective for potentially reflective, and likewise say reflection instead of potential 03:50am <dalvarez> program. <dalvarez> + A programming language or an operating system is called reflective if suited to reflective metaprogramming, <dalvarez> that is, if it has provides programs some special ability to read and write themselves or other related <dalvarez> programs. Actually, such reflection is often obtained as an interesting side effect of a more general and -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Excess Flood) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) 04:00am -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-143.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn169.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-177.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-177.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-9-215.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes <water> hi dalvarez <dalvarez> water: greetings 07:10am <water> anything on your mind? -:- water_ [water@tnt-9-247.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <water_> damn -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-215.tscnet.net]) -:- water_ is now known as water 07:20am <dalvarez> water: sure <water> hm <water> you posted something interesting last night after hcf and fufie and i left <dalvarez> i can't remember <water> i looked in the irc logs <dalvarez> going to read the logs - bbs <dalvarez> was it that why you beeped me this morning (hcf wanted to talk to me too but I don't know why) while I was in school? <water> no we wanted to ask you some questions <water> btw if you're in school, why be on irc? <dalvarez> I'm there in the brakes <water> hm ok <dalvarez> checked the logs - they don't know of anything... <water> http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/2000.0318 ? <water> you posted something about reflection, perhaps from the tunes glossary, and were flooded <dalvarez> ahh... that was intendet to be contained in a msg but didn't work <water> oh <dalvarez> was strange <water> so what's onn your mind? <dalvarez> there was a guy asking what reflection means so I gave a brief explanation to him, told him to read the stuff on tunes.org, and passed him the glossary entry - nothing more <water> oh ok <water> anything you'd care to discuss then? 07:30am <dalvarez> then the flood protection kicked me ass and put me into #tunes in half a second again <dalvarez> nothing to diskuss by now, no <water> k <dalvarez> I had some ideas about distributed scheduling speedup but didn't yet work them out -:- mathias [math@france2.hemmet.chalmers.se] has joined #tunes -:- mathias [math@france2.hemmet.chalmers.se] has left #tunes [] 07:40am <dalvarez> and maybe in the end they turn out to be impracticabel <water> hm i sort of like this idea called demand-driven concurrency for pure lazy functional languages <water> you synchronize at function calls waiting for argument evaluation which can occur in distributed threads transparently <dalvarez> how does lisp relate to reentrancy problems (I don't make any assumptions about low-level data representation) ? <water> i don't think it does relate <dalvarez> sophisticated... <water> but you can check the common lisp documents (there's stuff on concurrency) on line <dalvarez> I'm reading all time and will hopefully soon reach advanced issues 08:00am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp144.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us216.javanet.com] has joined #tunes <water> good morning <hcf> mornin <water> my phone line got some weird noise last night <water> that's why i was cut off 09:30am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-184-196.s196.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <water> hm. another paper that address a lot of things related to infinity and laziness that references induction and recursion but no co-induction or co-recursion 10:20am <water> fyi for whoever's listening: i think i'm going to allow circularity of references everywhere, but still keep a way to classify slots that helps to define a conceptual hierarchy to aid intuitive understanding <water> (within slate, i mean) <water> of course this means the directory-style syntax will get fully generalized to a relational algebra (basically a more freeform syntax) <water> hcf: btw, how does my html editor screw up the code? <hcf> reformats the poop in within <head> ie meta tags <water> hm <hcf> or so i recall * water/#tunes looks for a better html editor <hcf> why, wanna edit the tunes web pages? <water> no just slate <hcf> darn <water> otoh i suppose i could work on tunes, but i'm already doing most everything else <water> i suppose i could just modify a copy of tunes docs on my own account 10:30am <water> that way there's no screwing around with cvs or political bullshit with Fare <water> sound do-able? <hcf> i ges <water> heh don't sound so enthusiastic :) <hcf> ;) <water> seriously i don't want to screw around with yet another source of complexity <water> hm are there any good wysiwyg html editors out there? <hcf> i wouldnt know <hcf> oh goodie <hcf> deja is down <water> does mozilla provide a wysiwyg editor? 10:40am <water> hm they do 10:50am <eihrul> there's amaya <eihrul> as well <water> how good is it? <eihrul> haven't used it before, but i've heard nothing bad said of it <eihrul> www.w3.org/Amaya/ <water> it's netscape's but not mozilla? <water> hm i found it on netscape.com as well <water> wow it looks quite nice 11:00am <water> hm mozilla looks quite odd 11:10am <water> hm and still unstable 11:20am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250177.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes <water> hey tcn <tcn> hey <tcn> just signed on to grab a better text editor than pico :) <water> what are you getting? <tcn> nano & joe <lar1> pico is awsome! <water> they're all crap <water> :) 11:50am <tcn> nano's like pico but it has search&replace <water> ooh <smoke> sigh :0 <tcn> hehe <smoke> pico is the ms-dos of the editors <water> smalltalk makes a good text editor ;) <tcn> ed is allright <tcn> heh.. I used ed at work last week <smoke> tcn: read /usr/share/emacs/*/etc/JOKES ? :) <tcn> hmm lessee <tcn> haven't gotten to the emacs jokes yet <tcn> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed <tcn> -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi <tcn> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs <tcn> the dates are a nice touch :) <water> could you spew noise somewhere else please? <tcn> there's no signal <water> yeah but noise is noise when i'm going through the logs <tcn> yeah <tcn> what else do you expect on IRC though? if someone has anything serious they take it to email 12:00pm <water> it doesn't take much effort to make or go to a new channel <water> it *does* take effort to move the logger <tcn> hmm <water> try #osdev or #dolphin or something <tcn> i guess i don't much give a shit because i don't read all the logs - just when i get cut off <tcn> find something else to worry about <eihrul> rmm, it's called courtesy, tcn... sometimes other people appreciate it -:- leilani_18 [leilani_18@lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net] has joined #tunes <water> hello leilani <leilani_18> IM PORTUGUESE -:- leilani_18 [leilani_18@lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net] has left #tunes [] <water> heh <tcn> haha <lar1> That was interesting <eihrul> OPN is getting spill-over from efnet, now, it seems 12:10pm <lar1> OPN? <lar1> oh <lar1> Heh <tcn> ya just can't win <water> how are they learning of opn, though? <tcn> i remember stuff like that happening more a year ago <smoke> anyone here know ADA ? <dalvarez> smoke: wan't that the DoD pascal-like crap? <water> yeah i think all the ada specs are online <smoke> dalvarez: i have no idea. the tunes review page has no real content regarding ada. 12:20pm <dalvarez> heard they had to explode a rocket because of a program failure or something... -:- Kaufmann [newbie@200.224.105.142] has joined #tunes <water> yes ada is a huge language <Kaufmann> Foo <water> Bar <dalvarez> baaz <Kaufmann> oooh, Ada :) <water> yeah the big bulky language with every possible whizbang feature added to impress the generals <Kaufmann> heh <smoke> water: so you have used it? <Kaufmann> I like "whizbang" <Kaufmann> Americans have all sorts of cool onomatopeic words <dalvarez> the A merican D ental A ssociantion is at ada.org <water> smoke: no, but look at the spec and decide if it's worth it :) <smoke> dalvarez: there's www.gnuada.org and www.adahome.com <water> http://www.adapower.com/ <eihrul> Kaufmann: well, that's because they are the only words many americans can correctly spell <Kaufmann> eihrul, oh I see <water> what's up kauf? have you read my posts? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us216.javanet.com]) <Kaufmann> water, to the mailing list? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us216.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 12:30pm <water> yeah <Kaufmann> yep <water> what do you think? <Kaufmann> Omigod... a Scotch tape hard disk <dalvarez> surprise: AMD seems to run its site on a plan9 ... <Kaufmann> water, about what, specifically? The original post? <water> sure i suppose <water> comment on whatever you'd like <Kaufmann> uhrm... well, I think that, while Slate will definitely fulfill the HLL specs, they're vague enough that you'll still have to provide justification for many of your design choices, once Slate r1 is completed, before it's adopted as the official Tunes HLL. (Not that _I_ don't like it. I'm just saying that it could have been done differently, and there'll probably be people who will think it _should_ have.) <water> yikes shorter sentences please -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250177.clarityconnect.net] has left #tunes [] <water> well by the time i'm done with the post i'll have explained everything in detail <water> (note that it's only part one of three) 12:40pm <Kaufmann> hey, I worked very hard to learn how to write long sentences for my papers! <water> heh <Kaufmann> before then, I was a very laconic person <eihrul> Kaufmann: yes, but you've not learned the art of punctuation wrt run-on sentences :) <water> kauf: what about the language in particular? <Kaufmann> eihrul, hey! There are _6_ commas there! That's plenty of punctuation <eihrul> many of them could denote the end of a sentence rather than a pause in (but anyway) <water> kauf: nothing, then? <Kaufmann> oops, sorry <Kaufmann> I was on another channel <Kaufmann> no, I can't really say much one way or the other about Slate <water> why not? <Kaufmann> because I don't have the necessary background 12:50pm -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (night) <water> like almost everyone else in tunes <water> well then i must work this out with bill t, iepos, jecel, and whoever else <Kaufmann> I suppose <Kaufmann> c'est la vie <water> screw that <Kaufmann> LOL <Kaufmann> "c'est la vie" "screw that" <Kaufmann> if nothing else, talking to you is always a surprse <water> wish i could say likewise <Kaufmann> LOL <Kaufmann> I'll just sit here and pretend not to be offended... heh -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net]: No route to host) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ <Fare> Gakuk, Tril! <Tril> kukag * Fare/#Tunes is doing too much politics, and not enough coding <water> tril! <Tril> I was too.. now I've stopped * Fare/#Tunes is an active classical liberal -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes <Fare> (US people would say "libertarian") * Kaufmann/#tunes is just sitting down, listening to Queen, and having his dullness thrown at his face by water 01:00pm <water> what're you up to, tril? <Tril> water: I've been working on trying to do TUNES research as an undergraduate degree. <Tril> My CS professor is heavily discouraging it :) <eihrul> why would they? <water> i'm not surprised, i had the same experience <Fare> Tril: what does your CS professor think of TUNES? <Fare> Yeah, I had the same experience, too <Tril> He earnestly believes that a CS degree is a solid foundation for further research,which I should do in graduate school. <Fare> happily my boss is not a professor. He's an industrial researcher. <Fare> Tril: sure. However, a CS degree involve a term project. <Tril> Instead, my insane goal is now to get some working TUNES code before I finish a CS degree, which will then be part of graudate school application :) <eihrul> Tril: in how many years? <Tril> eihrul: 1.5 to 2 * eihrul/#tunes laughs. <Tril> hence "insane" <water> so where is tunes going? <water> tril: u have the same time frame <water> s/u/i <water> 2 more military years <Tril> Oh, I should publish this paper I wrote this quarter on the list. <water> so where is tunes going? <Tril> I wrote the proposal for how to do TUNES research in my undergraduate degree. <Tril> It will explain my idea of where tunes was going <water> why haven't you mailed me in the last two months, btw? <Fare> Tril: any comment on how to make my Arch+Refl+MetaGC paper readable? <Tril> water: busy with deadlines, I guess <water> exactly <water> everybody concerned with tunes is too busy to put in the time <Tril> Fare Whu? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us216.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) <water> i have a programming language in development that i'm going to mold into the hll and i need some sort of support, tril -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us946.javanet.com] has joined #tunes <Tril> ok <water> and discussions with Fare have 5-minute lag times <water> fare was talking about his architecture1 paper <water> well, it's a rambling draft <water> but then the slate docs are still not put-together well <water> tril: i assume you haven't even been following my explanations of slate at all 01:10pm <Fare> hum * Fare/#Tunes just booted on another machine <water> how fascinating <Fare> two weeks ago, I had no machine, but now I have two of them once again. <Tril> water: I know the basic idea <Tril> but, you are basically correct <Kaufmann> ah well, I've been kicked around enough for the day... I'm off <Tril> I have some time now, so I'll read them soon <water> all right <water> well i want the tunes web docs to get a hell of a lot more specific <water> apparently even fare's opinions have changed in the last 2-3 years since he last updated tunes specs <Kaufmann> Fare, wanna give me one? <Fare> of course my opinions evolve! <Fare> (in the right direction, I hope) <water> the point is that the docs don't reflect any useful policy any more <Fare> hell, when I entered the MOOSE project, I was "OO" like everyone. <Fare> water: change them! <water> fare: you're the coordinator -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (A stranger is just an asshole you haven't met yet. -- Meet the Fascist Moderator at www.osopinion.com) <Fare> am I? <Fare> well, feed me something to coordinate. <Fare> like, a patch. <water> grrr <water> this is not something i can just patch in <water> this needs you to be involved <Fare> does it? <water> unless of course you plan on turning tunes into lispos <water> in which case you can just shut down tunes.org and say the project is done ;) <Fare> not exactly, although tunes will encompass a lispos <water> great, tril's obviously afk <Tril> sorry <Tril> Trying to convert this document to html <water> i find it pointless to argue with you, fare, when you're only justification for lisp is formalism <water> s/you're/your <Tril> water: what do you want Fare to do? <Fare> no, it's also ease of bootstrap, an established tradition, etc, etc. <water> sometimes i'd like him to leave the project <Fare> water: "la critique est facile, l'art est difficile" <water> i know <Fare> water: how that, "leave"? If you want to be coordinator, just say so. <Fare> water: I never asked for it. I happened to be it. <water> but what am i supposed to do when i know that lisp will make tunes susceptible to all sorts of crappy design flaws? <Fare> actually, that's my very problem. <water> well i don't have time to coordinate <Fare> what else do you propose? yet another language tradition? or ML? Mercury? Maude? <water> and i already spend every waking moment working on my ideas <water> slate you ass!!! <Fare> is slate within any tradition, or is it Yet Another? <water> none of the above <Tril> water: can we make a list of lisp's crappy design flaws? 01:20pm <water> sure it's not unified <Tril> well, Rscheme is <water> no it isn't <Tril> if you meant it has one 'object' superclass? <water> rscheme is definitely not unified <Fare> Tril: CL: proprietary tradition; global object hierarchy; flat module space; no multiprogramming; <water> and the fact that macros are a pure hack should indicate something <Fare> CL macros are more than a pure hack, although they are not as clean as could. <water> i was referring to cleanness <Fare> the unpreciseness of macro-expansion time sometimes hurts, tho <water> it reflects poor language design <Fare> LISP was not designed. It was grown, and at one time, commiteed. <Fare> Scheme is designed. But that's no better. <water> so we're stuck again? <water> even if we pick lisp, what's the point if we don't know what the hll is supposed to be? <water> that's why i want tunes docs overhauled <hcf> Fare: why cant u update ur opinions on the site? <Fare> we know some of it: ease of reflection and metaprogramming, for which the LISP tradition seems fit. <water> lol <Fare> and also higher-order functions <water> yeah that's way too abstract though <Tril> http://tunes.org/~dem/tunes/ <Fare> hcf: which opinions where? <hcf> sigh <Tril> hcf is way too terse and jumps back to earlier conversations :) <Tril> Fare: hcf was referring to water's statement that "Even fare's opinions have changed over the last 2-3 years" wrt the tunes page <Tril> try again <Fare> hcf: because I feel like I should be doing coding, not webbing, unless there are specific bug reports that can be fixed w/o major website overhaul? <Tril> Fare: coding what? <water> yeah coding what? <hcf> u'v admitted that ur published opinions r out of date, no? <Tril> bandwidth between IRC and Fare's mind is lagged <water> i've found it so very often 01:30pm <Fare> I said "should". That's not indicative. <Fare> hcf: some of them might. <Tril> even more often, he isn't even around, should we be glad?? <Tril> (I've been around less often lately) <hcf> Fare: then dont just leave 'em to decay further <water> no he's around nearly every day, spouts his usual opinionated garbage to newbies and then ignores the replies/qiuestions <smoke> water: you're not being very positive lately are you? <water> i'm fed up with Fare <Tril> not since I've met him? <Tril> Anyways. I'm sure Water is just upset that TUNES has a lack of progress! <water> yes that's the major point <water> i have ideas like slate and arrow that i'm pushing as well as i can manage and they're not getting any feedback etc <smoke> that's obvious. <smoke> well, you can't force feedback <smoke> you'd have to start up a company and pay people for polls if you really want to. <water> yes but i try to actively seek out people who would naturally be interested like jecel <Tril> brb <smoke> and you're scared that happy lurkers like us here screw up the project. <water> oh and anyone who thinks that slate is only oo is greatly mistaken <water> smoke: yeah well sorry <smoke> no need to excuse yourselves for being scared. but telling what can be done instead of what should NOT be done would be wiser imho <water> thx for more advice 01:40pm -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [01:42pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp144.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp144.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp144.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes * Tril/#TUNES is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog Off] * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 0 min 8 secs <water> gah <Tril> uh <water> tril: make sure to factor in the fact that i'll be back at sea off and on in about 4-6 months <lar1> water: You don't have internet connectivity at sea? <Tril> hehe <Tril> not really. <water> i have http and email, but i can't use anything in real time <water> like irc or ever telnet -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net]: Connection reset by peer) <water> well, tril, what do you plan for the next 2 years, then? <Tril> water have you read that .htm yet? <water> yes <Tril> first I am goign to try putting review in a db again. <water> okay -:- ult [ult@user-37kbatp.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes <water> then what? <water> what do you have time for? <ult> Heya. 01:50pm <Tril> well, obviously it would be good for me to look at least a few of the actual review entries, and learn about them <water> hold on, in this paper are you proposing closed-development for tunes research? <water> okay <Tril> what do you mean by closed development? * ult/#Tunes gacks <water> "The free software development model (see The Cathedral and the Bazaar by Eric S. Raymond) does not seem to apply to research projects" <ult> There is Tunes development? <water> yes ult <ult> :) <ult> Actually that statement makes a lot of sense <Tril> I meant that tunes is an example of hjow open research projects fail <Tril> or at least that it's not working yet <ult> The outcome of the 'free software development model' is that you get a product that has very little thought put into it, and barely works. <Tril> that's one reason review needs to be interactive <Tril> shutup ult you troll <water> how long will this take? <ult> Tril:Hmmm...I think it's failing because there are 3 people doing anything. <ult> Tril: Perhaps there ought to be an available list of what needs to be done? <water> we have a lot of trolls on #tunes. Fare even counts <ult> Tril: And btw, I'm not trolling...That's my honest belief. <Tril> ult: you don't like free software? <ult> (Trolling being saying things one does not believe in, and usually considers ridiculous, just for effect) <ult> Tril: No. <Tril> ult: why are you on the OPN then <ult> Tril: It's like democracy...it sucks...but its 10 times better than anything else out there. <water> tril: we already have the wiki, what's the cost of just migrating to it? <water> n/m we've had this discussion already <ult> Tril: Define short term goals and tasks that will cause long term goals and tasks to come into focus. <water> ult: shut up <Tril> hmm, tuneswiki seems broken. <Tril> maybe not <water> we don't even have a useful hll spec <Tril> someone edited the main page to no longer point at the TUNES wiki page :) * water/#tunes is yet again quite stressed out <Tril> ult: good idea <water> tril: please do whatever's possible overall, but i refuse to deal with any complicated interfaces when modifying tunes content <Tril> is an html form complicated? <Tril> (necessarily?) <water> i hope not <ult> Tril just don't end up with something like sourceforge. <Tril> ult: why's that <Tril> Sourceforge is useful, I think we just aren't using it because we still have root on our own server. <water> tril: just keep in mind that i've been researching tons of ideas over the last year <Fare> we have declarative specs for the HLL, but not imperative specs. <Tril> but, I haven't USED sourceforge just browsed a couple projects in it 02:00pm <smoke> what about a bbs? <ult> Tril: Sourceforge is slow, overcomplicated, &c. <Fare> what about communicating with smoke signs? <Tril> smoke how is BBS different from a mailing list or newsgroup <water> fare: declarative specs in broadly-informal english doesn't lead to anything <Fare> doesn't lead to. But constrains the result. <water> s/doesn't/don't/ <water> what result?? <Fare> they are not anything like a be-all end-all <Fare> improve them! <smoke> tril: it's the same <water> i'll make it inconsistent, fare. our thinking styles clash <Fare> the result: water whining. The whole of TUNES was made with precisely that goal in mind. <water> no, fare trolling <Fare> water: then I'll re-establish the consistency, and you'll re-break it, etc, until we either converge or split. <Tril> you guys are hopeless * Fare/#Tunes is hopeless <Fare> or maybe not <Fare> "tant qu'il y a de la vie, il y a de l'espoir" <water> translation? <Fare> "as long as there's life, there's hope" <Fare> (and conversely) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-132-35.s289.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <water> wow babblefish got it right <hcf> tunes wars, episode 4, the new hopelessness <Fare> that's a proverb. This means that babelfish was trained with well-konwn proverbs. * eihrul/#tunes imagines something more Tolkien-esque. <water> yeah and three months from now, neither Tril nor Fare will have learned anything from slate <water> and would either of you care to post something *useful* to the mailing list? <Fare> something useful is posted in cvs, not on the list. <water> well if it goes on cvs, the list should know <water> and at least it should be discussed a bit before cvs'ing if its significant 02:10pm <water> hm is tril away again? <Tril> no <Fare> no, not discussed before. <water> oh okay we vote afterwords then? <water> of course no one will disagree with fare because they aren't as knowledgable <water> fare, what you don't understand is that you have near-total autonomy with your opinions in tunes due to tunes history <water> tunes has total inertia... bill tanksley, to name an example, would never suggest a different idea to you with any hope of it getting accepted <water> and he actually does know as much as you <ult> That's why Bill Tanksley is working on Dolphin ;) <Tril> you dont have to get idfeas accepted by fare to do them yourself. <water> i didn't know that but it makes sense <water> it doesn't matter <water> fare = tunes culture <water> everything else is nonsense <Fare> water: then just split. That's free software, you know. <water> no one will look into slate ideas sufficiently because it's not the fare-endorsed plan <Fare> of course, people will look at slate! <Fare> just show them! <water> you've sucked up all the interest with tunes! <water> they want to see tunes <Fare> shut your mouth, do a great slate, and amaze us. <Tril> water: have you ever seen http://everything.blockstackers.com <ult> Water? Stop whining? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH! <water> fare: it doesn't help that i'm the only coder/researcher/developer/specifier/etc -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes <smoke> water: you're pronoid <water> damn it my http access is fubar <Tril> it's a web space where anyone can add new nodes and link to other ones <water> no, i've asked for help everywhere and gotten blank stares <Fare> water: hum. Same for me with tunes. We're even. <Tril> with absolutely no purpose or topic hence it is called everything <water> oh so it's just everything. yeah i've seen it 02:20pm <water> besides, jecel's on the tunes list and i get good feedback from him when i mention something there <Tril> water: I think Fare doesn't care what people do in CVS because you can reverse the changes. <water> yes he'll reverse everything he thinks is nonsense <Fare> not without discussing <Fare> if you start a loser, you won't win. <water> yeah the discussion will consist of "but it's not lisp!" <water> or not scheme or not fp or whatever <Fare> you're prejudiced <water> so are you <Fare> I'm postjudiced. <water> who cares? opinions don't always improve with knowledge <water> i don't think yours do <Fare> of course they do, if the knowledge is good. Just feed me good knowledge. <water> well quit criticizing oo based on the mainstream of oo <Fare> what's left of "oo"? smalltalk and clos? <water> lol <water> yes, at least those <Fare> well, then I prefer to say "smalltalk and clos", and be understood. <water> i'd throw in a dozen research languages, cardelli's object calculus <water> and self? <water> what about moostrap? <water> or lens? <smoke> water: correct me if i'm wrong, but i think something in your ideas on slate contradicts. #1 you consider OO to be a key feature of slate, #2 you strive for minimalism. wouldn't it be better to create a language which is _capable of doing_ OO instead of _being_ OO ? <water> what about maude? <water> grrr <water> because it's not oo <smoke> and i quote: "Slate is a purely object-oriented language with an em..." <water> yep <smoke> that webpage needed some updating? <water> nope <ult> and i quote: "Water is a hypocrite" <water> no i'm trying to make a point * smoke/#tunes confoozed. <water> i can show this to oo people and they'll accept it <water> i can also show it to declarative (fp) people and they'll accept it too once i write the correct intro 02:30pm <water> i can also show it to applicative or imperative or combinator people and show that its their language as well -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-37kbatp.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) <smoke> what sort of people would you prefer not showing it too ? <water> people who are type-addicted, i suppose, but then i might find a way around that <water> i'm still working on a lot of it -:- ult [ult@user-38lc60k.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes <water> the big thing is meta-behavior <smoke> i got that :) <water> meta-behavior allows you to factor out a lot of semantics from a basic notation <smoke> is it important that the base can handle -anything- ? <water> hm <water> i don't think so right now <smoke> well, anything a turing machine could do, for example <smoke> if you could find a mapping between your language and a typical machine language, you'd be set. <water> yes the base is a utm, but it's not a usable one <water> the base is actually closer to brainf*** than anything else, because it has no number system built in <smoke> i recall someone pointed out brainfuck missed some features to make it usable <smoke> #think# <water> well smalltalk without any libraries is hardly usable as well <smoke> why yes of course, but it was something fundamental <smoke> hm i must be mistaken.. can't recall what it was <smoke> sorry. <Tril> water, so far, I like the visual environment, and the representing all data as functions <water> well it's a utm, that's what counts <water> tril: okay <Tril> I don't know Beta well, so I'm unable to comment on the object stuff yet <smoke> the visual environment is not mandatory, is it? <water> the beta part is actually not very significant <water> no, but it will help <smoke> ok. <Fare> what about a auditive environment? <water> mostly because of the namespace system <smoke> fare: lol <smoke> "RUN CODE RUN" -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (/set bother-y'all off) 02:40pm <hcf> ping? <Tril> . <Fare> pong * Tril/#tunes reading slate page <hcf> Fare: and what r u doing? something useless right? <water> make sure to look at the semantics page, under details <Tril> that's what I'm on now :) <water> k <water> the stuff in the email adds on to that 02:50pm * Fare/#Tunes is reading tcn's fos -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes <Tril> hi <bineng> hi there <water> hey bin <water> cool, more useful slate comments * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations bineng!" :-) * bineng/#tunes waves to the crowd * AlonzoTG/#tunes is studying neural interfaces <Tril> theory or actual? <bineng> Tril: I just read your mail, are you considering focusing your courses on TUNES? <AlonzoTG> actual, its my latest project. <water> the guarana author is on the tunes mlist it seems. i never knew that <Tril> bineng: yeah I was <Fare> tril: btw, great thing your proposal1a * bineng/#tunes wonders if it was him water meant would come with *useful* comments <water> bleh, brb, must reboot <bineng> sounds nice, yes <water> bin: no, but it applies <bineng> ;) -:- water [water@tnt-9-247.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] <Fare> you should point to it from the papers/ page <Tril> Fare: what do you especially like about it? <Fare> lively style yet precise exposition of the ideas. <bineng> Tril: Is the intended target for that text ok with the word 'hacker'? <Fare> yes, the initial paragraph is not optimally worded <Tril> bineng: yeah, they said it was ok <bineng> nice <Tril> Fare: you may suggest changes -:- water [water@tnt-9-17.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <Fare> the initial paragraph uses the words "hack*" then introduces them afterwards. <Fare> Either you should suppose readers know it or you should suppose they know it not <Fare> but the current way is confusing. <Fare> oh, and microsoftish ' is EVIL. <Tril> did it put punctuation in the wrong place?? <Fare> M$ encodes apostrophes in an incompatible way. <Fare> you don't introduce the term "idea system" before you use it 03:00pm <Tril> ' or " ? I see ' just fine, the " are " <Fare> using netscape on linux, ' is seen as an unknown char marker <Fare> (just like those from any M$ composed document) <Tril> I need to get X working so I can use netscape for linux <Fare> what's a "Concentration" ? <Fare> X is not that hard to get working. <Fare> #linpeople or #debian can help you <water> except in the cases where it's hard to get working, of course <Tril> concentration is http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~fhc/concentration/ <Tril> Fare: Maybe they can.. but I just need to try it myself. I am going to compile Xfree86 4.0 myself unless the X maintainer gets experimental .deb's out before I get around to it. -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) <Tril> I couldn't get X 3.3.6 working with nvidia's 3.3.5 GLX module <Tril> and/or 3.3.5 SVGA server <Tril> ie. it just hung when I ran it or couldnt connect <bineng> Tril: What kind of "senior project" could you do after having studied tunes stuff? <Tril> bineng: senior project can be anything , I could write some code, or do a presentation or write a paper, etc <bineng> ic <Fare> Tril: what other disciplines than computer science: cognitive sciences? <Tril> language and math, philosphy, psychology I suppose <Tril> It's not looking like I will actually do the concnetration, mainly since it's mostly computer <Fare> be sure to take a peek at that now half-freeware AI system CYC <Tril> but I have spring quarter to decide <bineng> you don't want that much computer stuff? <Tril> bineng if there is a lot of computer stuff it's hard to justify why it's an interdisciplinary concentration. <Tril> they want me to just take a regular computer degree <bineng> right <bineng> it could be argued that tunes does revolve around computers to some degree.. heh. <water> of course computers revolve around win32 and java programming <Tril> with a little bit of asm thrown in * bineng/#tunes gives water an irritated look <Fare> and a lot of magic <water> oh silly me i forgot <bineng> that page does say "Students have sometimes found it to their advantage to design a Concentration even though their central interest was in one discipline." <Fare> Tril: bad definition for reflection 03:10pm <Tril> I'm sure it is <Fare> I'd say "the ability of a system to have a dynamically coherent model of itself" <water> no sentence could capture the whole idea <Fare> some better than others. <Fare> the whole programme seems pretty ambitious <Tril> yes <Fare> how long is this concentration thingy? <Tril> the cs prof who read it said, it would take 5 PH.d's to do <Tril> therefore doing it as a degree would not really have a good ending point, or visible progress. <Fare> maybe a bit more :) <Tril> it would take 2 years at the most, I guess -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net]: Connection reset by peer) <Tril> also, I had a really bad experience trying to do an Independent study course in researching my tunes ideas <Fare> maybe your proposal should restrict the application focus of the fields you'll be visiting to only one thing (e.g. the mental processes used in software development) <water> i like that idea <Fare> else, you may end up studying poetry and music-making :) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes <Fare> not that poetry and music-making are that foreign to software design <Fare> what's an "Independent study course" ? <water> or vice versa :) <Tril> Eihrul yes I have regrets of choosing CS degree program. I'd rather quit school and start a nonprofit foundation to fund an open source computer science research center. But what's easier? <eihrul> doh... still trying to decide next four years of my life, what fun <Tril> Fare: http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~fhc/isps/ 03:20pm <Tril> CS professors have little or no time to work with students on ISP's <Tril> but I would need a lot of ISP's to study tunes at university * Fare/#Tunes is away <water> hm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) <water> tril: have you any comments or questions about slate so far? <Tril> what's it mean to disallow side-effects? You mean side effects on OTHER objects, right? <water> right <water> it's enforced by namespace protection <Tril> do you want to use objects as device drivers? Then there's a side effect on the hardware. <water> if you think of the slate object system + namespaces as a whole, you'll see it can act like a directory structure with permissions <water> it's customizable <water> a lot of the language is contained in the default meta-object <Tril> I haven't seen anything about persistence yet. <water> which can be replaced or incrementally modified <Tril> well, yes I did <water> persistence is transparent (orthogonal) <water> i haven't really addressed it <water> basically the object system is a file system as well <Tril> it was in the explanation of the name choice "Slate", it said that the entire computation history is stored. <water> yes, effectively <Tril> (or can be, I would assume.) <water> although you can toss it out <water> or replace it with a function that generates it on demand <Tril> obviously it is impossible to reify the entire computation, including all meta levels, that would be an infinite string. <Tril> But it looks like you don't have a reflective tower. <water> no it's a different type of reflection <Tril> (although it would be trivial to implement I think) <water> there's a paper on it actually <water> a few, actually 03:30pm -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES ( <k!14>) <water> well keep in mind that reflection can occur for the functional expressions which are object constructors <water> as well as just general hof stuff <Tril> I noticed <water> you can also get multiple inheritance or even more general stuff than that <water> by sharing construction functions <Tril> Well, I'm glad that I can actually understand most of what is written. I have yet to see whether it actually is complete enough idea to program. <water> not quite yet <water> did you look at my mails to the list recently? <Tril> no <water> they discuss some ideas i'm still working with not in the docs yet <water> some of them are quite mind-bending, like making the namespace system a graph instead of a tree <Tril> well, that's like having multiple ".."'s. <water> kind of <water> but it's cleaner semantics with the graph idea <Tril> My friend wrote a Tradewars universe generator this week. It's just sectors numbered 1-1000 and randomly connected together (but such that the graph is connected). <water> hm <Tril> I imagine navigating would be like that, but with maybe names instead of numbers to move from one location to another. <water> well the shell syntax can be extended to cover graphs <Fare> Tril: by focusing your Concentration on the particular mental structures specifically involved in programming, you provide the architecture of a system. <water> and besides i can always categorize slots to provide a canonical hierarchy <Tril> I'm reading this interesting slashdot article about whether patches to software fall under the original license. It applies directly to tunes because we haven't resolved that issue either. <Fare> bugroff <water> squeak has problems with the gpl, if it applies <Tril> Fare: how do I study that? <water> the gpl turns the entire image, including special additions, into gpl forcibly <Fare> well, you study any relevant field of cognitive sciences, but focus on these particular structures that you think are involved in programming. <Fare> for instance, you may overlook most of the mental processes involved in mating rituals. <Tril> one would hope 03:40pm <Fare> so your "idea system" would be very skewed. But at least you'd do it in 2 years <Fare> you might take a peek at systems like CYC or other stuff that propose other kinds of idea systems, but focus only on what is relevant in program-making. <water> cyc is very primitive compared to some of the research going on in logics <water> csli and folli are doing some very interesting things wrt the logic of programming <Fare> abi: csli? <abi> i don't know, fare <Fare> abi: folli? <abi> wish i knew, fare <water> er clsi <water> abi jolli <abi> well, jolli is the Journal of Logic, Language, and Info at http://www.folli.uva.nl/Jolli/ <Fare> abi: clsi? <abi> i don't know, fare <water> related to cog sci so there's cross-over <water> you can get to clsi from jolli * water/#tunes really likes his new substructural logics book <water> abi issl <water> damn it <Fare> abi: substructural logics? <abi> no idea, fare <water> i suppose i could fill abi with a bunch of factoids on it <water> abi ssl is substructural logics or logics without the usual structural-preserving rules of first-order logic <Fare> such rules as? <water> well linear logic is substructural <water> there are many aspects to it <water> for instance arrow logic drops associativity in most cases * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] <water> some add modal operators and drop full boolean algebra * Fare/#Tunes is away 3053 <water> others change quantifiers into variable-assignment operators <water> gah 03:50pm <water> what an ass <Fare> water: what's a diff between ssl and "modal logics" ? <Fare> (before I go to bed) <water> ssl is a much larger family of logics <Fare> that'll gimme nice dreams. <water> like i said, dynamic logics of variable assignment are included <Fare> Does your gramma and her dog qualify as substructural logics? <water> heh <water> no but relevant logic qualifies -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) <Fare> anyway. I like linear logic&co. <water> and there are more applications of modal stuff than you'd ever guess at first sight <Fare> I just don't understand the contours of ssl <Fare> is there some standard reference about them? <water> well it's a diverse field <water> yeah the one that just got published a month ago :) <water> the one i got a copy of :) <Fare> isbn? <water> 041521534X -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) <water> and yes it has plenty of proofs <water> okay i'm talking to the wall again :) <water> is anyone left? <eihrul> yes, but i don't count <water> no, you traitor ;) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-117.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-117.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] <eihrul> only temporarily :P <water> i know <eihrul> i assure you, this is the last operating system i ever make :) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-117.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes <water> hey nate <nate37> where can I get the logs for this chatroom? <nate37> hey water. <water> http://www,tunes.org/files/irc/ <water> oops <water> http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/ <nate37> thanks <water> np 04:00pm <nate37> geez.. .every log I see has lar1 asking "do u like the aphex twins", this is like the 5th one I have seen within 24 hours! <water> that's odd <nate37> he must like them alot <water> i suppose <nate37> anyway... I should leave before I create too much noise :-) <water> i only remembered that he asked it once last night <water> unless you have something tunes-related to talka bout <nate37> I'm looking at one that is the 3/14, he asked me last night... and I saw another log last night where he was asking somebody.... no don't have much to talk about... just learning what tunes is... cya <water> ok you can ask newbie questions any time you want <nate37> hmmmm... let me think... how about reflective computing thing, I don't quite get that yet. <water> well if you can manipulate programs as data structures, you can write programs that write programs <water> certain languages allow you to do that in quite simple ways <water> like lisp or scheme or self <nate37> ok <nate37> I should go though (dialup connection, one phone line), bye <water> oh ok -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-117.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] 04:10pm <water> Tril: let me know when you get back 04:20pm <water> well i'll bbl tonight, perhaps around 9 -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 04:30pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp144.lvdi.net]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-137-130.s384.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- water [water@tnt-9-134.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Signed off) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp204.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh6-port162.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.131.124.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes <rares> abi, seen Downix <abi> Downix was last seen on IRC 20 days, 16 hours, 37 minutes and 12 seconds ago, saying: not at all [Sun Feb 27 01:50:59 2000] 06:30pm -:- ult [ult@user-38lcn4c.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-145.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes <rares> hey nate <nate37> het <nate37> hey <nate37> i mean <nate37> anything new with the voice stuff? <rares> been doing school transfer papers <rares> had a tooth pulled <nate37> ouch 08:10pm * lar1/#tunes is gonna get a tooth pulled <nate37> I had a few of my baby teeth pullin a little while ago. <nate37> lar1: adult teeth? <lar1> nate: Yeah <nate37> lar1: why? braces or something? <lar1> nate: Yup I didn't wear my headgear and rubberbands enough so I am blessed with getting a tooh pulled. ;) <lar1> This really doesn't belong on this channel though <lar1> hcf got _really_ pissed at me today <nate37> lar1: over to #{} then -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES ([x]chat) 08:20pm -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- noof [pi@pubnix.org] has joined #tunes <noof> hi <lar1> Hey <noof> whats new <nate37> nothing <nate37> much <nate37> I don't think 08:50pm -:- vY_ [vyrus@adsl-63-195-48-214.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- vY_ [vyrus@adsl-63-195-48-214.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #tunes [] <noof> fare: i like your 'dreams' page 09:10pm -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ <lar1> Guten nacht, tril! <Tril> hi <nate37> hello 09:20pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) <noof> later -:- SignOff noof: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) 09:30pm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[dialup-209.245.131.124.SanJose1.Level3.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-145.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-119.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes <nate37> any good papers on what tunes is? >>> nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-119.dialup.pcmagic.net] requested VERSION from TUNES 09:50pm -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-119.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-120.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.244.105.112.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp411.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0319 IRC log ended Sun Mar 19 00:00:01 2000