IRC log started Wed Apr  5 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0405
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<hailtotheking> what is TUNES?
<smoke_> hailtotheking: an OS to be
<hailtotheking> i just went to the website
<hailtotheking> thanks
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06:10am
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<XeF4> !seen tcn
<XeF4> Does anyone know if C is forbidden from the mainstream retro tree?
08:40am
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<smoke> how do i write '(n over k)' in TeX ?
09:50am
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<water> hey all
<tcn> hey
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<eihrul> hey
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<water> hm why'd tcn leave?
<water> how odd
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<water> re
<tcn> yeah, my modem died
<water> k
* water/#tunes catches up on email
<tcn> 20 msgs, 99% crap
02:50pm
<tcn> ever use "wmx"?
<water> what's wmx?
<tcn> nice little window manager
<water> nope
<tcn> nice kbd controls, sorta like the linux console. Don't have to touch my mouse :)
<water> well that's a nice idea, since it makes the code interface-independent
<water> (theoretically)
<tcn> what do you use, gnome?
<water> mostly kde
<tcn> oh yeah, I used to use kde
<tcn> all the bugs worked out?
<water> (mostly for klyx etc)
<water> yeah it's pretty stable
* water/#tunes contemplates building a slate sim out of the new work on prototype objects in squeak
03:00pm
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<water> ok time to write up some more slate stuff for the mlist
* ult/#Tunes bumps water
<tcn> see ya
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<water> ult: eh?
* ult/#Tunes shrugs
03:20pm
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-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes - Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate - http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
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<water> hey hcf
<hcf> hey
<water> no responses to my emails recently, but massimo still seems intelligent
<water> what did you think of his response to atg?
<hcf> i'l reread
<hcf> (lag)
<water> hm more drivel about databases
<water> they respond too quickly to each other for such a topic. they don't seem to think things out
04:20pm
<water> no comment?
<hcf> i guess not
04:30pm
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<water> hello meno0
<menozero> hi.
<water> is there something we can do for you?
<water> for instance, do you have questions about tunes?
<water> hm
<menozero> well, I've been lurking at Tunes since 1994.
<water> likewise, actually
<menozero> I was even on the ml.
<water> well i didn't join until a year ago
<menozero> My project was about an editor.  Still working on it.
<water> you use dylan, then?
<menozero> but I'm not active.  never been.  lonely guy.
<menozero> *YES* I love Dylan.
<water> too bad
<water> ok
<water> well i have questions about dylan
<menozero> right now I'm working with Dylan on my XML editor.
<water> you see, i'm working on an HLL prototype called Slate and i was curious about dylan's macro system, since both dylan and slate are oo-friendly
<water> but the dylan docs don't seem to explain them well enough for me to understand what they have to offer over lisp macros
<menozero> Dylan doesn't offer much over Lisp.
<menozero> but it's a nice macro system for an infix lisp.
<water> dylan's oo-based, though
<water> right or wrong?
<menozero> yes.  very OO.
<water> so how do its macros work, essentially?
<menozero> macros and OO are not very tied.
<menozero> I don't understand...
<water> well, i understand lisp's macros, but they only apply to function-like ideas or multi-methods it seems
<menozero> the difference between Dylan (and some lisp) macros and C/M4/TeX/... macros is [you know].
<water> it seems you have to be really careful (moreso than otherwiase) when making a macro that deals with pure oo
<menozero> Dylan use multimethods.  like CLOS.
04:40pm
<water> not proper methods?
<menozero> I don't think I've seen much literature on macros.
<water> no there isn't much besides the lisp stuff
<menozero> I don't understand your problem.  an example would be nice.
<water> hm
<water> well i have web pages on slate that you could look at
<menozero> macros just expand some stuff.  you say "foo" and it's like "bar1; bar(foo); bar2"
<menozero> if carefully designed (wich is hard) they are not dangerous for OO prog.  I think.
<water> yes but that's limited to some implicit notion of lisp
<menozero> slate.url
<water> see the topic
<water> abi: slate
<abi> i heard slate was a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<menozero> I've seen macros used to define some complex data type together with its methods.
<water> well macros depend on a single namespace as far as i've noticed
<menozero> for example "define command delete-line "C-k" "Delete the current line." end;".
<menozero> macros use the same ns as other symbols.
<water> yeah well in slate my objects are all namespaces
<menozero> module ex/import just names of things, mostly vars, funs, class and macros.
<water> well modules in slate are redundant
<menozero> does slate have an implementation?
04:50pm
<water> there's an evaluator written in lisp that covers a small subset of it
<water> but the language and environment specification aren't worked out completely yet
<menozero> (reading about slate)
<menozero> I fell in love (!) with Dylan for some reasons.
<menozero> Dylan was made to be a practical pl.
<water> as opposed to... ?
<menozero> lisp
<water> que tal smalltalk?
<menozero> Lisp is almost perfect, Smalltalk, Self... but when it comes to compiling...
<water> uh sure
<water> they take much less time to do so? :)
<menozero> while Dylan implementations are not so nice, they could produce almost C++-like libraries using the right philosophy.
<menozero> which is lisp.
<water> anyway
<menozero> yes, I know and I don't want to flame.
<menozero> really.
<menozero> I've tried, but never implemented, to create *my* programming language.
<menozero> it was based on a concept/relation encyclopaedia.
<water> :P
<menozero> functions, variables, classes and everything was based on c/r.
<menozero> which is something similar to what tunes was trying (and still?) to do.
<water> um no
<menozero> (philosophical similar)
<menozero> (almost)
<water> no
<water> really, i mean it
<menozero> (ok)
<water> i spend most of my time when communicating with tunesers trying to eradicate concept fusion
<menozero> (guess it's time to see how much my wrong idea of 1994 tunes has evoluted)
<water> such as "my idea is just like tunes!"
05:00pm
<water> about half of tunes mlist threads are based on such fallacies
<menozero> on the ml everyone had its idea of what tunes was.
<water> yes i know that's why i didn't join for so long
<water> i've read tunes docs about once a month for the last 5 years or so
<water> i think i know more about tunes than Fare does, imnsho
<menozero> (ok, don't want to be rude, sorry)
<water> well i just feel frustrated that tunes does not attract enough clear-headed people
<menozero> [back to my pl] the problem is how to compile any very-high-level-programming-language in a normal-low-level-machine
<water> since no one else is working on ideas of similar value
<menozero> in less than a week
<water> too vague
<water> and why don't you eschew dynamic run-time feedback?
<water> it's not even a fully-mature way of optimization, and it's already proven very useful
<menozero> it's just about how much run-time you want.
<menozero> if you use a bytecode, it will never (os not) be as fast as C.
<water> bytecode sucks
<water> untie the concept of dynamic run-time feedback from bytecode, please
<menozero> right.
<menozero> I think it's still a static/dynamic or compile/run-time problem.  And Dylan is a good instance of what we could use.
<water> use for what?
<menozero> while smalltalk/lisp/self/java will never.
<menozero> "use" for usable.
<water> bs
<menozero> fast enough.
<water> you like tunes?
05:10pm
<menozero> [these are just my humble opinions.]
<menozero> obviously I never understood tunes. :)
<water> i don't doubt it
<menozero> I never said I did.
<water> what do you think of merlin, then?
<menozero> what's merlin? self-related? can't remember.
<water> forget it
<menozero> maybe never known. why don't you tell me, instead of been slightly rude?
<menozero> if you don't want to talk, just say so.
<water> sorry, i'm pissed off
<menozero> we were just chatting about Dylan and stuff, then I offended you not knowing tunes...
<water> you're about the 100th former tunes lurker i've met
<water> yeah i find it incredibly offensive
<menozero> 1. I don't want to be rude.  2. you can't be rude just because of that.
<water> i don't have the right, eh?
<menozero> i'm sorry, but i never said i knew tunes.
<menozero> i've read a lot, but not studied it.
<water> i know, but you said you knew about tunes in '94 and that's a long time for an idea to (not) sink in
<menozero> in 1994 for some months i've been on the ml.
<menozero> then nothing.
<menozero> some months ago I've tried tunes.org.
<menozero> that's it.
<menozero> the problem (which is not a problem) with a new projects, a really new projects, is that people don't understand it.
05:20pm
<menozero> I have the same problem with a simple XML editor.
<water> well tunes is 6 years old now
<menozero> people need time.  they need to come to it their way.
<water> lol in 6 years??
<menozero> when they lose some Word 6 document and can't import properly the begin to understand there's a problem and start looking for a solution.
<menozero> what's the problem behind tunes? why does it exist?
<menozero> that's quite hard to figure from the home page.
<water> or from anywhere else
<menozero> yes.
<water> and i totally disclaim any authorship of tunes docs other than slate
<menozero> I loose interest in tunes years ago just because of that.
<menozero> (i wish I could say I'm sorry, but I understand things quite easily, normally.  so I thought that it was very hard or very not-understandable.)
<water> well do you see any fault in dylan?
<menozero> Not yet.
<water> there's your problem
<water> maybe that's the kernel of the problem that tunes tries to address
<menozero> I'd like some pliant-ism in Dylan, but that would not be part of the Dylan style.
<water> ew
<water> have you tried maude?
<menozero> no.
<water> abi: maude?
<abi> maude is a reflective rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ or http://www.csl.sri.com/~duran/
<water> not a "practical" language, but very interesting because of what it can extend itself to handle
<menozero> thanks for the urls.  I usually know something. :)
<water> it's the only language paradigm i know of that can actually solve equations in a general and configurable way
05:30pm
<water> almost all of its ideas will be implementable in slate objects alone
<menozero> nice.
<menozero> as i said, i was interested in a "practical" pl.  do you think it's wrong?
<water> well in tunes terms it is
<menozero> ok.
<menozero> so, i'll even stop lurking... :)  I really don't want you to be "pissed off".  honest.
<menozero> I think A and you think B and that's it.  I have my resons and you yours.
<water> whatever
<water> no need for platitudes
<menozero> (define "platitude", 'couse my italo-english can't get it, if you want me to understand.)
<water> hm the meaning is subtly different from "over-used saying"
<menozero> thanks.
<menozero> banalita'.
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05:40pm
<water> yes that's about the right word
<menozero> I'm looking at Maude pages.
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<water> re
<eihrul> re
<menozero> *Hi*  I
<menozero> I'm just a lurker who don't know tunes so just ignore me.
<eihrul> ?
<water> heh
<water> eih: i've been giving him the treatment
<water> eih: i still don't find my bmo implementation ideas satisfying
<eihrul> what in particular are you musing over still on bmos?
<water> providing a balance between protection and power
<eihrul> protection from?
<water> i guess the bmo's could just be really dangerous in the beginning and we could make them easier to deal with later
<water> hm
<water> well the bmo's can inspect the objects they handle
<water> they basically can do anything to them
<eihrul> well, shouldn't they be able to?
<water> well we don't need that much power in order to get the features we want
<water> like screening message-invocations and cloning
05:50pm
<eihrul> well, how would you propose to limit their power and to what end is that actually useful?
<menozero> Anyway, it's been a pleasure, nice "treatment".  There should be a chapter in Software-Release-HOWTO on how to send away people almost interested in your project.
<water> well it's useful in protecting novice users from screwing up the system really badly
<water> meno: we have far too many people already
<water> one more person with concept fusion wouldn't help us at all
<eihrul> well, couldn't this be handled in the bmos that affect the particular bmo's meta-behavior?
<water> perhaps but what protects the bmo's bmo?
<water> :)
<menozero> I don't have CVS permission.  I just say stupid (because different) things.  If you are not interested, just say so.  You started talking about Dylan.  I really don't want to disturb you.  I'll see tunes.org in 5 years.
<menozero> Bye.
<eihrul> well, i suppose it'd infer some common bmo property available in all bmos that the objects are created from...
<eihrul> so ensure that all critical objects know how to protect themselves and that other objects cannot damage critical objects
<water> i think i'm making too big a deal out of it
<eihrul> perhaps, for the first slate, i don't see security to be a big concern
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<water> yeah we'd mostly be writing environment stuff anyway
<eihrul> because we still don't have a working system (i know) to decide on how security concerns affect the objects at this point and where it is really needed
<water> here's an interesting thought: how do i actually use meta-behavior to clone an object on message-reception?
<water> i thought about this one a bit and it's sort of interesting
<eihrul> you mean if the message, say, would modify the target object?
<water> yes
<water> (which is supposed to be the default, as far as we've discussed)
<eihrul> i.e. (slot (set : foo)) ?
* water/#tunes nods
<water> the idea is that the bmo forwards the message to (object clone)
06:00pm
<water> or some variant of that
<eihrul> well, the cloning would be done in the 'apply' part of the protocol
<water> yes
<eihrul> when 'set' bound to 'foo' for input is applied to 'slot'
<eihrul> so the 'set' message's result is a new slot object, whose value has been set to 'foo'
<water> yep
<eihrul> but, actually... the above example is a bit weird
<eihrul> since the slot itself is just a message
<eihrul> rmm, hmm, maybe not
<eihrul> set would change the result expression of the slot message
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<eihrul> (this change encompassed in the new clone it returns)
<water> i sometimes find it dubious to have every object return result implicitly
<water> should we just have all results be explicit?
<water> of course that's cumbersome
<eihrul> well, the result is returned in this particular instance by application of the slot to its container
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<eihrul> i.e. (object slot)
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<water> yes in this case it is
<water> hm
<eihrul> now... that expression itself is lazy
<eihrul> and will not actually give a result unless their is some source of demand
<water> however, when you assign, you don't want that result, do you?
<water> yeah well that's basically assuming the outer object needs an explicit demand
<eihrul> well, 'set' could alternatively return a new method
<eihrul> that could be correctly applied to the container without demanding the result of the slot
<water> hm
<water> i can see ':' being a type of monad, though
<water> since it returns a bottom-level state change
<water> i mean, what would the code of a state slot contain?
06:10pm
<water> if i say x : 4, what's the object x have as slots?
* eihrul/#tunes hmms.
<water> obviously it has a return slot which provides 4, but what's the code in the return slot
<water> ?
<water> oh wait
<eihrul> (answer /container_of_4/4)
<eihrul> or what-not
<water> in order for : to work, we already know that namespace access has to be messed with
<water> so if we simply have ":"'s meta-behavior to access another namespace, then the only slot of return would be 4(?)
<water> that doesn't seem right
<water> any ideas?
<eihrul> well, x would have to contain a reference object to the real 4
<eihrul> (since it bridges namespaces)
<eihrul> though it doesn't seem strictly essential
<water> but reference objects could be just clones
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> with according bmo
<water> yeah not original meta-behavior
<water> er... not the mb of the original object
<water> hm
<water> ok obviously namespace access in the forward direction is not trivially the same thing as slot access as it is in self
<water> for one thing, we've got result slots to think about
06:20pm
<water> (when we access slots)
<water> hm
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<water> so obviously if we want the object and not its results, we use '/' and not regular slot-invocation
<water> this means '/' is more important than i originaly thought
<eihrul> actually, no
<water> why not?
<eihrul> because application will still demand a result
<eihrul> all that does is change lookup
<water> yeah but the result of '/' is different
<eihrul> and perhaps that is another question...
<eihrul> how does '/' change the affect of lookup and or apply?
<water> it has its own behavior
<eihrul> eek
<water> heh
<eihrul> that's the problem with "special" constructs :)
<water> yeah
<water> well it's a reflective one, if we make it more than just a kludge
<eihrul> because it requires intercepting the lookup before it gets to the bmo
<water> it's one thing to say (object foo) .... it's wholly another thing to say "(/ object foo)" (syntax check, please?)
<water> hm
<eihrul> well, object/foo was originally intended to mean (object foo) itself
<eihrul> not so sure about that now...
<water> yeah and i see that it may have been a mistake
06:30pm
<water> well right now i'm considering whether or not to reify symbols as is done in self/smalltalk
<water> as in #foo vs foo
<water> (quoting)
<water> otoh they seem to need it in place of namespaces
<eihrul> (object (/ : #foo))?
<water> possibly
<eihrul> though this also suggests a way /absolute might work...
<water> how so?
<eihrul> actually, i was wrong, it doesn't really...
* water/#tunes returns to thinking about slots
<water> it'll always have a ":" slot of course, within it
<water> and the result slot *returns* what we think of as the slot's state
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
06:40pm
<water> making slots like those un-inspectable seems tempting
<water> of course, my idea for the literal systems involves having *no* state whatsoever other than observable algebraic behavior (which is inherited) among numbers letters etc
<water> the value would be determined by equations which referenced the objects
<water> and the equations would just be other objects (a network of expressions connected by symbol-flow) within the same namespace, since they obviously return values if evaluated
<water> that actually makes a lot of sense, whereas our basic slot idea would look suspicious to the user who started using the inspector to get around
<water> maybe we should wave a meta-behavior wand, and be done with it ;)
<water> but maybe there's something to that
<water> eih: you still there, man?
<water> bah
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> eating
<water> ok let me know when you get back
06:50pm
>>> water [water@tnt-10-124.tscnet.net] requested TIME  from TUNES
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<water> hey xef4
07:00pm
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<eihrul> hey
<water> am i bothering you?
<eihrul> i suppose not
<water> hm have you caught up on what i was talking about?
07:30pm
<eihrul> yeah
<water> well i was considering that the bmo could replace the apply phase with a direct forcing of the return value
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<water> iow the bmo has the state, although this screams meta-circular tower
<water> what do you think? the bmo might have a table of lookup values or something like that which are only symbols
<water> er s/symbols/objects like exemplified in the literal system/
<eihrul> yeah
<eihrul> though if the symbols are not something the bmo strictly cares about, but need to be handled, this also screams composition
<water> hm how so?
<eihrul> well, it just depends on what particular symbols these are and whether they're expected to behave the same across all objects or not
<water> i don't think i follow
<eihrul> rmm, well, <- tired
<water> you're always tired :)
<eihrul> well, yeah, but right now i am especially so to the point where my level of coherency is affected
07:40pm
<water> when can i expect you back on?
<water> tomorrow?
<eihrul> later tonight probably if i go to sleep now
<water> ok beep me to get my attn if it's late
<water> cya later, then
07:50pm
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* water/#tunes realizes some dual significance to the name "NeoCortex" of the software company in the movie "the matrix"
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-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (nite all)
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (See you next week in a brand new show!)
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-124.tscnet.net])
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<water> eeep!
<water> long time no see, eep
<water> sorry, afk
<Eeeep> hello =)
11:50pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0406
IRC log ended Thu Apr  6 00:00:01 2000