IRC log started Wed Apr 5 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0405 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn123.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lcn4c.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-53.vpn.uib.no]) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-53.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-215.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-53.vpn.uib.no]) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-53.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-215.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (brb) -:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- hailtotheking [Anonymous@203.115.25.3] has joined #tunes what is TUNES? hailtotheking: an OS to be i just went to the website thanks -:- hailtotheking [Anonymous@203.115.25.3] has left #tunes [] 06:10am -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (woosh) -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-53.vpn.uib.no]) -:- XeF4 [xef4@194.255.106.40] has joined #tunes !seen tcn Does anyone know if C is forbidden from the mainstream retro tree? 08:40am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-95.s95.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes how do i write '(n over k)' in TeX ? 09:50am -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Reconnecting) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn123.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES (Ping timeout for thomas[193.217.63.152]) -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (installing a new hdd) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[207-172-49-95.s95.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-249-59.s567.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-53.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[209-122-249-59.s567.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp16.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- XeF4 [xef4@supernova.sevenheavens.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250075.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-124.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey all hey -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[15dyn123.delft.casema.net]: EOF from client) hey -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) hm why'd tcn leave? how odd -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250047.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes re yeah, my modem died k * water/#tunes catches up on email 20 msgs, 99% crap 02:50pm ever use "wmx"? what's wmx? nice little window manager nope nice kbd controls, sorta like the linux console. Don't have to touch my mouse :) well that's a nice idea, since it makes the code interface-independent (theoretically) what do you use, gnome? mostly kde oh yeah, I used to use kde all the bugs worked out? (mostly for klyx etc) yeah it's pretty stable * water/#tunes contemplates building a slate sim out of the new work on prototype objects in squeak 03:00pm -:- ult [ult@user-37kbass.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes ok time to write up some more slate stuff for the mlist * ult/#Tunes bumps water see ya -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) ult: eh? * ult/#Tunes shrugs 03:20pm -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-37kbass.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes - Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate - http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us700.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hey hcf hey no responses to my emails recently, but massimo still seems intelligent what did you think of his response to atg? i'l reread (lag) hm more drivel about databases they respond too quickly to each other for such a topic. they don't seem to think things out 04:20pm no comment? i guess not 04:30pm -:- menozero [gpensa@mi1-1043.dialup.tiscalinet.it] has joined #tunes hello meno0 hi. is there something we can do for you? for instance, do you have questions about tunes? hm well, I've been lurking at Tunes since 1994. likewise, actually I was even on the ml. well i didn't join until a year ago My project was about an editor. Still working on it. you use dylan, then? but I'm not active. never been. lonely guy. *YES* I love Dylan. too bad ok well i have questions about dylan right now I'm working with Dylan on my XML editor. you see, i'm working on an HLL prototype called Slate and i was curious about dylan's macro system, since both dylan and slate are oo-friendly but the dylan docs don't seem to explain them well enough for me to understand what they have to offer over lisp macros Dylan doesn't offer much over Lisp. but it's a nice macro system for an infix lisp. dylan's oo-based, though right or wrong? yes. very OO. so how do its macros work, essentially? macros and OO are not very tied. I don't understand... well, i understand lisp's macros, but they only apply to function-like ideas or multi-methods it seems the difference between Dylan (and some lisp) macros and C/M4/TeX/... macros is [you know]. it seems you have to be really careful (moreso than otherwiase) when making a macro that deals with pure oo Dylan use multimethods. like CLOS. 04:40pm not proper methods? I don't think I've seen much literature on macros. no there isn't much besides the lisp stuff I don't understand your problem. an example would be nice. hm well i have web pages on slate that you could look at macros just expand some stuff. you say "foo" and it's like "bar1; bar(foo); bar2" if carefully designed (wich is hard) they are not dangerous for OO prog. I think. yes but that's limited to some implicit notion of lisp slate.url see the topic abi: slate i heard slate was a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html I've seen macros used to define some complex data type together with its methods. well macros depend on a single namespace as far as i've noticed for example "define command delete-line "C-k" "Delete the current line." end;". macros use the same ns as other symbols. yeah well in slate my objects are all namespaces module ex/import just names of things, mostly vars, funs, class and macros. well modules in slate are redundant does slate have an implementation? 04:50pm there's an evaluator written in lisp that covers a small subset of it but the language and environment specification aren't worked out completely yet (reading about slate) I fell in love (!) with Dylan for some reasons. Dylan was made to be a practical pl. as opposed to... ? lisp que tal smalltalk? Lisp is almost perfect, Smalltalk, Self... but when it comes to compiling... uh sure they take much less time to do so? :) while Dylan implementations are not so nice, they could produce almost C++-like libraries using the right philosophy. which is lisp. anyway yes, I know and I don't want to flame. really. I've tried, but never implemented, to create *my* programming language. it was based on a concept/relation encyclopaedia. :P functions, variables, classes and everything was based on c/r. which is something similar to what tunes was trying (and still?) to do. um no (philosophical similar) (almost) no really, i mean it (ok) i spend most of my time when communicating with tunesers trying to eradicate concept fusion (guess it's time to see how much my wrong idea of 1994 tunes has evoluted) such as "my idea is just like tunes!" 05:00pm about half of tunes mlist threads are based on such fallacies on the ml everyone had its idea of what tunes was. yes i know that's why i didn't join for so long i've read tunes docs about once a month for the last 5 years or so i think i know more about tunes than Fare does, imnsho (ok, don't want to be rude, sorry) well i just feel frustrated that tunes does not attract enough clear-headed people [back to my pl] the problem is how to compile any very-high-level-programming-language in a normal-low-level-machine since no one else is working on ideas of similar value in less than a week too vague and why don't you eschew dynamic run-time feedback? it's not even a fully-mature way of optimization, and it's already proven very useful it's just about how much run-time you want. if you use a bytecode, it will never (os not) be as fast as C. bytecode sucks untie the concept of dynamic run-time feedback from bytecode, please right. I think it's still a static/dynamic or compile/run-time problem. And Dylan is a good instance of what we could use. use for what? while smalltalk/lisp/self/java will never. "use" for usable. bs fast enough. you like tunes? 05:10pm [these are just my humble opinions.] obviously I never understood tunes. :) i don't doubt it I never said I did. what do you think of merlin, then? what's merlin? self-related? can't remember. forget it maybe never known. why don't you tell me, instead of been slightly rude? if you don't want to talk, just say so. sorry, i'm pissed off we were just chatting about Dylan and stuff, then I offended you not knowing tunes... you're about the 100th former tunes lurker i've met yeah i find it incredibly offensive 1. I don't want to be rude. 2. you can't be rude just because of that. i don't have the right, eh? i'm sorry, but i never said i knew tunes. i've read a lot, but not studied it. i know, but you said you knew about tunes in '94 and that's a long time for an idea to (not) sink in in 1994 for some months i've been on the ml. then nothing. some months ago I've tried tunes.org. that's it. the problem (which is not a problem) with a new projects, a really new projects, is that people don't understand it. 05:20pm I have the same problem with a simple XML editor. well tunes is 6 years old now people need time. they need to come to it their way. lol in 6 years?? when they lose some Word 6 document and can't import properly the begin to understand there's a problem and start looking for a solution. what's the problem behind tunes? why does it exist? that's quite hard to figure from the home page. or from anywhere else yes. and i totally disclaim any authorship of tunes docs other than slate I loose interest in tunes years ago just because of that. (i wish I could say I'm sorry, but I understand things quite easily, normally. so I thought that it was very hard or very not-understandable.) well do you see any fault in dylan? Not yet. there's your problem maybe that's the kernel of the problem that tunes tries to address I'd like some pliant-ism in Dylan, but that would not be part of the Dylan style. ew have you tried maude? no. abi: maude? maude is a reflective rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ or http://www.csl.sri.com/~duran/ not a "practical" language, but very interesting because of what it can extend itself to handle thanks for the urls. I usually know something. :) it's the only language paradigm i know of that can actually solve equations in a general and configurable way 05:30pm almost all of its ideas will be implementable in slate objects alone nice. as i said, i was interested in a "practical" pl. do you think it's wrong? well in tunes terms it is ok. so, i'll even stop lurking... :) I really don't want you to be "pissed off". honest. I think A and you think B and that's it. I have my resons and you yours. whatever no need for platitudes (define "platitude", 'couse my italo-english can't get it, if you want me to understand.) hm the meaning is subtly different from "over-used saying" thanks. banalita'. -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-241.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes 05:40pm yes that's about the right word I'm looking at Maude pages. -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp16.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes re re *Hi* I I'm just a lurker who don't know tunes so just ignore me. ? heh eih: i've been giving him the treatment eih: i still don't find my bmo implementation ideas satisfying what in particular are you musing over still on bmos? providing a balance between protection and power protection from? i guess the bmo's could just be really dangerous in the beginning and we could make them easier to deal with later hm well the bmo's can inspect the objects they handle they basically can do anything to them well, shouldn't they be able to? well we don't need that much power in order to get the features we want like screening message-invocations and cloning 05:50pm well, how would you propose to limit their power and to what end is that actually useful? Anyway, it's been a pleasure, nice "treatment". There should be a chapter in Software-Release-HOWTO on how to send away people almost interested in your project. well it's useful in protecting novice users from screwing up the system really badly meno: we have far too many people already one more person with concept fusion wouldn't help us at all well, couldn't this be handled in the bmos that affect the particular bmo's meta-behavior? perhaps but what protects the bmo's bmo? :) I don't have CVS permission. I just say stupid (because different) things. If you are not interested, just say so. You started talking about Dylan. I really don't want to disturb you. I'll see tunes.org in 5 years. Bye. well, i suppose it'd infer some common bmo property available in all bmos that the objects are created from... so ensure that all critical objects know how to protect themselves and that other objects cannot damage critical objects i think i'm making too big a deal out of it perhaps, for the first slate, i don't see security to be a big concern -:- SignOff menozero: #TUNES (using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/981227-pre0.9) yeah we'd mostly be writing environment stuff anyway because we still don't have a working system (i know) to decide on how security concerns affect the objects at this point and where it is really needed here's an interesting thought: how do i actually use meta-behavior to clone an object on message-reception? i thought about this one a bit and it's sort of interesting you mean if the message, say, would modify the target object? yes (which is supposed to be the default, as far as we've discussed) i.e. (slot (set : foo)) ? * water/#tunes nods the idea is that the bmo forwards the message to (object clone) 06:00pm or some variant of that well, the cloning would be done in the 'apply' part of the protocol yes when 'set' bound to 'foo' for input is applied to 'slot' so the 'set' message's result is a new slot object, whose value has been set to 'foo' yep but, actually... the above example is a bit weird since the slot itself is just a message rmm, hmm, maybe not set would change the result expression of the slot message -:- ult [ult@user-37kbah1.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes (this change encompassed in the new clone it returns) i sometimes find it dubious to have every object return result implicitly should we just have all results be explicit? of course that's cumbersome well, the result is returned in this particular instance by application of the slot to its container -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES (Ping timeout for thomas[193.217.63.152]) i.e. (object slot) -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes yes in this case it is hm now... that expression itself is lazy and will not actually give a result unless their is some source of demand however, when you assign, you don't want that result, do you? yeah well that's basically assuming the outer object needs an explicit demand well, 'set' could alternatively return a new method that could be correctly applied to the container without demanding the result of the slot hm i can see ':' being a type of monad, though since it returns a bottom-level state change i mean, what would the code of a state slot contain? 06:10pm if i say x : 4, what's the object x have as slots? * eihrul/#tunes hmms. obviously it has a return slot which provides 4, but what's the code in the return slot ? oh wait (answer /container_of_4/4) or what-not in order for : to work, we already know that namespace access has to be messed with so if we simply have ":"'s meta-behavior to access another namespace, then the only slot of return would be 4(?) that doesn't seem right any ideas? well, x would have to contain a reference object to the real 4 (since it bridges namespaces) though it doesn't seem strictly essential but reference objects could be just clones * eihrul/#tunes nods. with according bmo yeah not original meta-behavior er... not the mb of the original object hm ok obviously namespace access in the forward direction is not trivially the same thing as slot access as it is in self for one thing, we've got result slots to think about 06:20pm (when we access slots) hm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us700.javanet.com]) so obviously if we want the object and not its results, we use '/' and not regular slot-invocation this means '/' is more important than i originaly thought actually, no why not? because application will still demand a result all that does is change lookup yeah but the result of '/' is different and perhaps that is another question... how does '/' change the affect of lookup and or apply? it has its own behavior eek heh that's the problem with "special" constructs :) yeah well it's a reflective one, if we make it more than just a kludge because it requires intercepting the lookup before it gets to the bmo it's one thing to say (object foo) .... it's wholly another thing to say "(/ object foo)" (syntax check, please?) hm well, object/foo was originally intended to mean (object foo) itself not so sure about that now... yeah and i see that it may have been a mistake 06:30pm well right now i'm considering whether or not to reify symbols as is done in self/smalltalk as in #foo vs foo (quoting) otoh they seem to need it in place of namespaces (object (/ : #foo))? possibly though this also suggests a way /absolute might work... how so? actually, i was wrong, it doesn't really... * water/#tunes returns to thinking about slots it'll always have a ":" slot of course, within it and the result slot *returns* what we think of as the slot's state * eihrul/#tunes nods. 06:40pm making slots like those un-inspectable seems tempting of course, my idea for the literal systems involves having *no* state whatsoever other than observable algebraic behavior (which is inherited) among numbers letters etc the value would be determined by equations which referenced the objects and the equations would just be other objects (a network of expressions connected by symbol-flow) within the same namespace, since they obviously return values if evaluated that actually makes a lot of sense, whereas our basic slot idea would look suspicious to the user who started using the inspector to get around maybe we should wave a meta-behavior wand, and be done with it ;) but maybe there's something to that eih: you still there, man? bah yes eating ok let me know when you get back 06:50pm >>> water [water@tnt-10-124.tscnet.net] requested TIME from TUNES -:- XeF4 [xef4@supernova.sevenheavens.com] has joined #tunes hey xef4 07:00pm -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (Read error to XeF4[supernova.sevenheavens.com]: EOF from client) -:- XeF4 [xef4@supernova.sevenheavens.com] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate@ppp-207-151-70-37.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes hey am i bothering you? i suppose not hm have you caught up on what i was talking about? 07:30pm yeah well i was considering that the bmo could replace the apply phase with a direct forcing of the return value -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (XeF4 has no reason) iow the bmo has the state, although this screams meta-circular tower what do you think? the bmo might have a table of lookup values or something like that which are only symbols er s/symbols/objects like exemplified in the literal system/ yeah though if the symbols are not something the bmo strictly cares about, but need to be handled, this also screams composition hm how so? well, it just depends on what particular symbols these are and whether they're expected to behave the same across all objects or not i don't think i follow rmm, well, <- tired you're always tired :) well, yeah, but right now i am especially so to the point where my level of coherency is affected 07:40pm when can i expect you back on? tomorrow? later tonight probably if i go to sleep now ok beep me to get my attn if it's late cya later, then 07:50pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) * water/#tunes realizes some dual significance to the name "NeoCortex" of the software company in the movie "the matrix" -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbah1.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- ult [ult@user-38lc63r.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[adsl-63-204-134-241.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-134-241.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate@ppp-206-117-3-246.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (nite all) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (See you next week in a brand new show!) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-124.tscnet.net]) -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- water [water@tnt-10-122.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-47.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- Eeeep [chico@usr31-dialup4.mix1.Sacramento.cw.net] has joined #tunes eeep! long time no see, eep sorry, afk hello =) 11:50pm [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0406 IRC log ended Thu Apr 6 00:00:01 2000