IRC log started Sun Apr 9 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0409 -:- nate37 [nate@ppp-206-117-3-190.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error to Downix[d-gnaps-47.ici.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-28.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (nate37 has no reason) -:- XeF4 [xef4@48.ppp1-13.worldonline.dk] has joined #tunes -:- TornToast [flop@203-96-99-37.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff TornToast: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (sleep) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn155.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp135.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from clarke.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is clarke.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from clarke.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 13 24:47 EDT(from clarke.openprojects.net) -:- clarke.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(16)] 2% -:- [global users on irc(420)] 46% -:- [invisible users on irc(495)] 54% -:- [ircops on irc(16)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(915)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(29)] (avg. 31 users per server) -:- [total channels created(321)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !clarke.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 29 (28 clients) !clarke.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 5 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Tunes - Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate - http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Wed Apr 5 16:10:07 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:6)] [ TUNES ] [ eihrul ] [ smoke ] [ Fare ] [ Fufie ] [ abi ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.517 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh12-port218.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh12-port218.snet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-201.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey hey care to place a bet on when the "intent" tunes mlist thread gets around to talking about tunes directly? oh wow. now it's a bunch of trash about unique id's * eihrul/#tunes nods. 09:50am well, going to go read some more have a lot of stuff to look at before i can start laying out a design for the compiler k yeah i've been considering how mo's will work in detail lately including compiled form etc * eihrul/#tunes quuxes. -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) 10:00am -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-73-191.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes hi lar Hey water Whats up? same stuff, new chapter Mmm 10:50am -:- ult [ult@user-37kba38.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial351.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes hey kauf hey water I'll meet Stallman in 15 days what for? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us731.javanet.com] has joined #tunes water: seen this? http://x27.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=602512328&CONTEXT=955272075.911867919&hitnum=0 well, he's coming to Brazil for a big-ass Free Software event in the South, and, being friends with the organiser, I'll get to meet with him a few days earlier here in Rio, for an interview any suggestions of questions? Kauf: How about this: "What crawled up your ass and died?" I want to focus on technical stuff Heh ult, uh, I think he'll hit me in the head with the nearest chair I've already got some 30 candidate questions, about everything from Lisp Machines to GCC Kauffy kauffy kauffy... ultie ultie ultie...? coffee coffee coffee... ah well you guys are all useless anyway :) kauf: how's your karma ;) water, the ol' Karma count's doin' fine :) 'nuf said heh anyone ever heard the Black Crowes playing Whole Lotta Love? 11:20am *yawn* yeah you're pretty boring we all are if we were Unix geeks, we'd all be millionaires if you weren't so banal, maybe i'd talk with you LOL -:- Kaufmann is now known as ThatBanalGuy kauf: take it to #dolphin or #osdev go be a useless ass somewhere else, or discuss Tunes LOL -:- ThatBanalGuy is now known as UselessAss wtf did tunesers do to deserve you? well, I don't know about you, but Fare sold his soul to the devil in order to get his Ph D... so I was sent here to haunt you all until he dies. * water/#tunes wishes in vain for ChanOps * Fufie/#tunes smiles don't any useful thoughts cross your mind, kauf? 11:30am uh? - I thought I had thought of something original, but that was just a song I had heard somewhere else -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp12.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes re eihrul re hey, why did you stop abusing me?!? -:- UselessAss is now known as MasochistGuy kaufie: relax now, will you? ah well -:- MasochistGuy is now known as Kaufmann how's life treating you lately kaufie? ... you mean after the spookily life-threatening appendix surgery? 11:40am * eihrul/#tunes ponders the usefulness of loop invariant code motion in a relatively side-effect free language. yeah, rather well eihrul, exemplify * ult/#Tunes grimaces well, actually, it seems easier to handle if in a functional language where loops are handled through recursion eihrul: nooo eihrul: recursion is handled through loops actually, that also makes loop determination way easier :) ult: nope... yep >:) tail recursion! ;) recursion is optimized into ugly imperative code 11:50am -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Yeah, well... did I ask you?) foo bar * eihrul/#tunes quuxes. -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) damn him i was using my /query to him as a scratch buffer ;) 12:00pm * water/#tunes is still stuck in writers' block mode for some reason -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kba38.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- Kaufmann is now known as Kaufmann_away -:- SignOff Kaufmann_away: #TUNES (Meet the Fascist Moderator at www.osopinion.com and win a FREE cookie!) hm 12:40pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us731.javanet.com]) gah bbl -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 01:20pm -:- ult [ult@user-38lc61o.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp160.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) -:- gmol [gmol@24.68.42.158.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes Is Fare around? -:- water [water@tnt-10-201.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey 02:30pm Hey Brian, hows it going? not bad Cool..fare hasn't been hanging around here lately has he? hm i don't remember our last conversation no he was at a few conferences or something Well we just about met in La Jolla if it wasn't for an email mixup.. oh yeah :P hey i've been looking a lot into equational rewrite lately you know about my work on slate, right? Yeah I saw on the page...have you actually coded anything yet? not much yet... we've got a small evaluator written in lisp right now, and i'm toying with the object model in smalltalk as soon as i get the meta-object system worked out completely, the language will stop being a moving target sounds cool. i kinda haveto jet..I will be popping in this channel from time to time looking for Fare (grad school adivce stuff), best of luck iwth slate ok thx -:- SignOff gmol: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) 02:40pm -:- XeF4 [xef4@25.ppp1-19.worldonline.dk] has joined #tunes re rere.. water: would you recommend a functional language upon which to base a functional language for creating message paths in a microkernel system? paths? pipes oh functional as in like lisp or functional as in usable? functional like Haskell or ML then haskell (using monads) well you can do monads in ml as well too heavy something more lightweight? hmm maybe a small scheme 03:00pm -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (XeF4 has no reason) * eihrul/#tunes ponders lisp within a monad framework. *within* a monad framework? well, things like progn and such :) hm allowing for the expected side-effects without actually having them so like a purely functional lisp core with a primitive for monads and everything else built on top? yep not a bad idea the only thing that is not purely functional is symbols :/ heh 03:20pm -:- XeF4 [xef4@52.ppp1-3.worldonline.dk] has joined #tunes re 04:20pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-139-209.s463.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- gmol [gmol@24.68.42.158.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes re you're best bet on contacting Fare is to email him hey, if anyone cares I wrote an essay for a class that some here may find interesting http://www.scar.utoronot.ca/~97yadavm water: Actually I did btu I was hoping to contact person. host name gone bad? doh n/m i got it http://www.scar.utoronto.ca/~97yadavm/essay.ps no cut-and-paste feature? Well I did have the URL near me so I had to type it yikes that's either a lot of postscript or (i'm guessing) pretty pictures in your essay one pic...don't know why it's so big you should probably gzip it for convenience 04:30pm I just had it up there for a prof to download..just thought I would post it to let others see..but I mightas well leave it up and gzip it hm well i'll read it at least done Let me know what you think (are you going to read it now, cause I'll stay if u are) yeah i'll read it when it's downloaded in about a minute it seems i've been reading a hell of a lot of papers lately hm here it is hm what would you say is the thesis statement, if any? well there is not s much a thesis statement, the point was to explore some current questions in science, there is no actual statement to prove, it's more of a surevy than an esay hm 04:40pm well, there's definitely good metaphors between biology and computing (the RNA paragraph) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[216-164-139-209.s463.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) Well I think it's overinterpited most of the time i'm not familiar with the field directly i think you could do something interesting with the beauty paragraph i mean more interesting than what is already there Yeah , Iliked the analogy (it was the greater part of the esssay), but I feel it was apt Well what do you mean? hm maybe i was thinking more in terms of a hard sci-fi story rather than a scientific essay :) Oh yeah...I think you could prbably write a nice short story..hey maybe that's something I will do... maybe a more explicit comparison with a similar incident in scientific history Well..it does pretty much allude to all the work going in in molecular bio and biochem... although i'm not sure how it compares, perhaps if you discussed virii or cellular organization hm We never understood the molecular basis of life, when we came up with the centeral dogma of biology, much of the mysticism of life has been kind of wiped out.. ehn we did figure it out billions of dollars and hours of effort were spent around it and now we are here..still nto quite sure what life is :) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@208-58-195-110.s110.tnt10.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes how reductionist :) or is this about a sort of post-reductionism? btw, you could always go into complexity theory if you want to discuss replacement ideas for the mysterious life force concept 04:50pm Well I guess I am trying to show both a reudctionistic and "holistic" (.?) view to the life question have you ever looked into cybeernetics much? Well that's kind of what we are trying to do..where do the emergent properties arise (is there a transition point?) from rocks to life? Cybernetics as in knowledge theory etc.? yeah sort of abi: pcp? pcp is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ I tried to when I was in La Jolla at UCSD, but I couldn't get a card, so what my reading time wasn't that productive hm well i happen to think of life as a self-perceiving relation too bad... pcp is down again pc? pcp? yeah principia cybernetica Website? the one that abi mentioned above ah well if you have any good pointers email them to me: 97yadavm@scar.utoronto.ca well anyway if you take very general info theory and chaos theory you can relate self-similar systems with the problem of recognizing other life forms ok I get to do research next year under steve mann, wearble computers and stuff..that's the other cybertics I guess great augmented reality and all that? Yeah very cool stuff...it's all based on image analysis..I can look through my glasses .see you and a little name tag will follow you around as you move...very neat things yes i know that's one of the things i'd like arrow for no tracking or anythin, all the information is extracted from the 2d image trust me i've read and thought very deeply on such things well moving 2d image..you've done work in image analysis ? no not directly... my ideas center around a unified architecture for moving around information like that Hmmm..have you made any progrs in communicating your results to others? well i've been successful in explaining slate, which is my implementation basis for arrow for now DDo you have something I could look at? and i'm working on my own (without publicizing) on a natural language which supports the arrow stuff for slate? yeah 05:00pm there's not much on slate right now... check out my posts to the tunes mlist (they're online) abi: slate? i heard slate was a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html ok jas the docs are getting overhauled soon for a major update, though since i've managed to systematize most of the info there that is very ad hoc at any rate, slate seems to be the only serious candidate for tunes HLL under the "detail" page you'll find docs on the syntax and semantics issues k so Slate is a programming language ? eihrul plans on working up a compiler for it soon yes so give me an example on how I would make a program that would pirnt hello world to the screen but it's very minimal... it doesn't even have algebra or logic in the core semantics Well gimmie an example of doing something in it then "hello world" printTo: myScreen well that's not the right syntax ("hello world" (printTo : myScreen)) IMHO, I don't recall anyone on this group being paritcularly good at coding, I wouldn't trust anyone that said they were going to write a compiler, I doubt they could -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[208-58-195-110.s110.tnt10.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) SO break it down for me, what does each token mean in slate well slate doesn't have keywords it's just an (object message) syntax without assignment per se the messages are objects with slots just like objects SO messages and objects are two different things? nope they're just object used in two different ways every object acts llike a function, and vice versa ok..so You are passig the printTo object to the myScreen object? not quite you pass the screen reference to the printTo object which gets evaluated in the enclosing object "hello world" What is the different between a reference and an obejct? gmol: well, either way, water gets his money's worth... not much, semantically eihurl: I guess so Well then how are they differnt? i'm just saying you don't have to copy the screen to pass it to a message :) 05:10pm So in fact printTO and myScreen are both references? one thing that is a big factor in slate design, though, is meta-behavior wait wait..let me understand that program first ok every syntactic construct produces references, yes btw, meta-behavior affects that program ok..so what about "hello world", it is a reference to an object whose contents are the ascii characters "hello world" sure keep in mind that references in slate are real objects, though they have no data, they just act as proxies for the objects in most cases So a reference itself is a data structure with things like a name and the type of data it points to , yes? this is where the Self stuff comes in.... objects are made by cloning not quite it's an object whose only allowed data is its "parent" slot what is a slot? so every message sent to the clone really affects the original object basiccally it's an element of a data-structure in slate, all objects are sets (ZFA) of slots so we are dealing with object in the traditional sense..they are sets of slots :) sorry, ZFA, is zermelo-fraenkel set/class theory didn't see that last line Ok so object are ZFA sets which have elements which we call slots yes but these are True sets and classes sure slots also have names, which help in orienting the sets SO you can have a set of names which can be mapped 1-1 to slots, yes? yes evyer slot has a name? every yep and every set of slots (as an object) is its own namespace "is it's own namespace?" yes, as in a kind of block-structuring -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (XeF4 has no reason) An object is a set with a set of slots, a set of names, and mapping between them? well, if you want a fully formal definition, sure ja jas sorry, i meant that i agreed there 05:20pm yes, you're right ok so it doesn't matter right now what the slots are.. they are simply members of the sets of slots true, although certain slots are reserved in a sense in wwhat sense in the sense that all objects have parent objects, meta- objects, references to their enclosing namespaces, and result slots at least the standard hierarchy of objects will have those slots sorry, i don't know of that book Crap...I have the authour's name on the tip of my tounge, great read... anway back to the subject although that would be cool to discuss higher mathematics with an interested female 8) what are meta-pobjects yes back to the subject... ah! i thought you'd never ask :) brb (just getting food) they implement slot lookup and access ok i'll write a bit for you to read they are reflective and access the internal implementation state of the object i am currently working out the required details of their implementation in order to provide the types of meta-behavior required by a good programming language with full features * water/#tunes waits for gmol to return Why do you need to define meta-objects, the act of looking up a method is just that, it's corresponing element in the nameofslots to slots map 05:30pm well, it breaks encapsulation, for one well, meta-objects allow you to define that particular operation as well let's bak up the names-to-slots mapping is basically implementation (or declaratively reflective) an object is a set of slots, a set of namesofslots, a map between them well that doesn't address the syntax issue, does it? what syntax issue? and i can't very well have a reflective method like "lookup" sitting next to the other methods the fact that explicit lookup is cumbersome syntactically speaking, lookup should be implicit reflection allows you to reify it and modify it. in slate, you do that by getting into the object's meta-object it allows you to redefine lookup (for instance) on a per-object or per-namespace basis * water/#tunes pauses does that make sense to you or not? -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from clarke.openprojects.net [05:37pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] damn >>> water [water@tnt-10-201.tscnet.net] requested PING 955327043 from TUNES -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 05:40pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@208-58-194-111.s619.tnt9.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-28.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp160.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-28.vpn.uib.no]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us321.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- XeF4 [xef4@99.ppp1-22.worldonline.dk] has joined #tunes -:- ult [ult@user-38lcmtr.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (off) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp431.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes >>> coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] requested VERSION from TUNES >>> coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] requested PING 955353890 810630 from #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- lispbliss [lispbliss@cont01p53.ont.micron.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lispbliss: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lispbliss[cont01p53.ont.micron.net]) -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh7-port42.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh7-port42.snet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/ -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- water [water@tnt-9-127.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi all hello coreyr abi: scan for uc hm 10:40pm well, corey, if you have any questions about tunes, feel free to ask, or otherwise talk 10:50pm abi uc&c is Understanding Computers and Cognition or skip GEB if you have half a brain abi geb? geb is probably _Goedel, Escher, Bach_ by Douglas Hofstadter or insanely great abi geb is also forget this nonsense and read a real book like UC&C okay, water. 11:00pm abi tao is the theory of abstract objects at http://mally.stanford.edu/theory.html and has an online form of principia mathematica as well 11:20pm -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn155.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes re smoke 11:40pm * water/#tunes contemplates a metaphor between transforming hof-passing programs into lazy language programs and monadic programs into something else(?) hm otoh perhaps monads are the second part and environment-variable-passing functions are the first :( 11:50pm [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0410 IRC log ended Mon Apr 10 00:00:01 2000