IRC log started Mon Apr 10 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0410 -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us230.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us230.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- water [water@tnt-9-127.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- XeF4 [xef4@amanjaku.epilogue.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes &quit -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (XeF4 has no reason) 07:10am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-131-144.s144.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[216-164-131-144.s144.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-114.s368.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn155.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn155.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-97.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations water!" :-) hey atg yeah... I gots to do some reeding. =\ head always hurts. =((( join the club 09:00am how did you figure out what tunes was about, atg? is 'tg' for 'the great' btw? 09:20am no it's alan t grimes wow. it really sounded like a cool prince or so hm it looks like i borrowed some ideas for slate meta-behavior unwittingly from 'capabilities' morning hey! corey speaks are you new to tunes, corey? ive been browsing fare's pages for a while how long roughly is "a while"? hmm lemme think over a year after all, i browsed the tunes site for about 4 years before i joined ok i dont understand all the concepts too well that's okay it happens to most people i can answer any questions you have although it depends on what your programming knowledge is TG == The Great im undergrad comp sci but not currently enrolled that doesn't mean as much as you might think :) seriously, what questions do you have? you wrote the arrow paper? yep i'm also working on slate whats slate? * water/#tunes eyes the topic doh! abi: slate? chanserv changed it i guess slate is a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html 09:30am it's a tunes hll design whats hybridizing mean? it means you cross-breed well i understand that. heh no livestock jokes, please :) i have a rudiamentry understanding of lisp -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes - Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html very rudiamentry but i dont know beta or self hm what aspects of each are you incorporating into slate? well i came up with the prototype idea for slate back in '94 when i thought tunes didn't need extra help. boy was i wrong ;) well beta puts objects and functions together so every object has input and output, and every functions has properties and methods also, every object in beta is its own nested scope how does this relate to agents? :P agents are concurrent active objects of a very particular kind slate objects are much more flexible for instance? (using reflection, of course ;) well, agents usually have their concurrency semantics embbedded in the language within slate you can get at these semantics by working in the meta-object system using first order? huh? hmm heh it seems i dont have the terminology well anyway, slate gets very dynamic, prototype-based oo principles from self well you send the first-order object the message "meta" to get into its meta-object this stuff seems fun and slate is also functional in the sense that pure lisp is functional uh sure sorry, i work on these ideas all the time, so it's not always fun to me heh are you forced to? of course not 09:40am how old are you? if you dont mind me asking. :) well, if you count sleepless nights due to having ideas pop into your head as "forcing", then yes, i'm forced 22 where do you live and work? i saw tunes.org when i was 17 and thought up the slate idea (and coded a little scrappy prototype with a gui) when i was 18 hm where do *you* live and work? :) ive grown up in florida now i live outside UCF what city is that? orlando ugh hm do you remember the navy base nearby? which one? heh the one that closed down a year ago i think yeah south of town? yes ive only been here since sept. who lived there? i mean you well, i dropped out of college because no one respected my ideas, and joined the military thats interesting so i work on nuclear reactors until another year or so, when i get to go back to college why do you think no one respected your ideas? oh i don't know, maybe because they laughed at them heh yeah its funny to a stranger no its the "oh i dont know" your very cynical nothing wrong with that just i wanted to know why if it were me, i would have been encouraged by the laughter so anyway, do you have questions about tunes? yes well i saw the consequences of such attitudes what school laughed at you? texas a&m i had a full scholarship to mit, but couldn't attend private schools for legal reasons of course, i'm not bitter ;) your life seems complicated thats probably for the best builds character fsck character me i dropped out of high school that's not good whats good in this life? the tao :) overcoming one's self (or whatever) 09:50am ubermansch. among other things, yes abi: <> i heard <> was Modality or a diamond symbol or your Arrow-like human language idea or additional blurb at http://www.tunes.org/~water/ abi: modality there's no good web page that explains modality in all its meanings then we should make one when i get the time ill start it. right now, i want to make sure you grok tunes heh are you sizing me up? sure i hate people lurking around tunes areas who have concept fusion or don't really get it oh so its personal? :) ok i dont really get it it's personal when i loose sleep for 7 years because of ideas are you manic? heh no, but i'm obsessed (involuntarily it seems) well what do you understand about lisp, for example? i read the first couple chapters of introductory material bah i don't give a damn what you've read, just describe the basic outline of what you know i understand its based on first order calculus but i dont really understand that either you understand the SEXP syntax, right? no okay time for basics im willing to learn but ive never had any direction (operator operand operand operand ...) got it e.g. (+ 1 4) returns 5 it's nice because it's extremely uniform and can be used to implement any kind of tree have you heard of abstract syntax trees? no it's where you take the grammar structure of a sentence or program and lay it out in a branching pattern * water/#tunes thinks that there must be a good tutorial on this somewhere hmm for language i understand that water: are you rushed? i'm always rushed you're taking me away from books to read, etc life is brief, aint it? 10:00am too brief to reflect on things like that on irc then go you have short patience. anyway, lisp allows uniform access to syntax trees with 'car' and 'cdr' how does car and cdr work? :P * water/#tunes looks for a good lisp tutorial heh are you into linguistics also? yeah its amazing how little a cs undergrad knows very much so i love linguistics i thought up <> before arrow, and arrow before i found tunes syntax trees still need to be encoded to SEXPR i don't care i got the hint on finding a tutorial. thanks for you time. abi lisp tutorial is at http://www.nyu.edu/pages/linguistics/nlcp/lisp.html anyway, lisp represents both programs AND data using Cons cells, which are the units of SEXP a CONS cell is just a data structure with exactly two references, a CAR and a CDR because in lisp you can pass around and analyze programs in the same way you use data-structures, its very easy to write a lisp evaluator on top of lisp that's called *reflection* i understand reflection many other languages can do it, not just lisp well you need to understand why lisp supports reflection continue. hm i understand reflection if that's the case, how much must i explain? unification * smoke/#tunes does not understand reflection (never mind though) smoke: when you think about yourself, thats reflection geez when something can refer to itself, thats reflecting corey: i get the basic notion, but have no idea about a mathematical definition neither do i unification is the process of extending a single simple construct so that it encompasses the specification of an entire system gah so using the same thing for data and code if a turing machine runs a program that emulates itself, that's reflection corey: not just that and turing is based on first order calculus? well the church turing hypothesis forget that first-order calculus nonsense heh it's good stuff but it only confuses you 10:10am abi: agt agt is Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/ abi: icct icct is Interaction, Computability, and Church's Thesis at http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/pw/papers/bcj1.pdf does the turing machine need to 'emulate' _itself_ or another turing machine? (..in order to be reflective) anyway, lisp has macro facilities that let you build new programming languages easily on top of lisp smoke: that's the basis for *causal* reflection there are many kinds of reflection, though anything involving self-refrence is reflective which basically means that everything everywhere is reflective water: could you answer my last question too please (if i've stated it explicit enough)? no you haven't he did. he tried. heh rephrasing. emulation isn't really reflection unless it can be used to change or reason about the machine being used ah, i'll interpret that as the 'itself' option. thanks. np the emulation of another one made C or C++ perfectly reflective (given you can easily write a C compiler in C) at any rate, macros happen to allow you to use lisp to unify the various programming languages that work in niche categories smoke: but the ability to reason about or modify safely a c compiler written in c is not programmable or simple or unified very true smoke: you got him off track. oh sorry. heh abi lisp tutorial is also at http://grimpeur.tamu.edu/~colin/lp/ okay, water. * smoke/#tunes crawls back under his rock Gakuk fare: nice report ! Fare: afternoon. don't wait on Fare water: modality? abi: modality he usually spends 5 minutes afk between looking at the terminal look it up here, for the lazy: http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?db=*&term=modality * coreyr/#tunes holds his tongue. that doesn't include new philosophical ideas or formalisms related to modality, though 10:20am i wanted to know how you thought of modality btw, does anyone know of a better dictionary? (not foldoc, general purpose) that would take too long to explain in one session i always 'telnet dict.org 2628' www.m-w.com hm they don't return any better results afternoon indeed hey fare, have you heard from maneesh lately? not for a long time well he's looking for post-grad advice post-grad? * Fare/#Tunes never understood the US diploma curriculum i told him to email you about his questions * Fare/#Tunes never understood the french one, either phd i don't care PhD is just after graduation? fare, i don't give a damn, i'm just forwarding a message heh ok, thanks what came of the pliant conference anyway? I have a report ready. Rereading it before to put it on my page. where at? ok let us know when you do wait, I'll put it on fare.tunes.org/tmp/ Fare: who are your bosses? what's the paper listed as, fare? my bosses are JB Stefani of FTR&D DTL ASR and Elie Najm of ENST 10:30am the paper isn't listed yet. Want a preview? sure hm 403 heh i didn't realize uploads actually were visible on http while still in progress :) ok. It's now in /tmp/ send corrections to me via email fare: it's 403'd 403? forbidden access forbidden oops, was sent back to me as mail attachment, and mutt is (rightly) paranoid ok, retry no change * water/#tunes returns to more rewarding pastimes like reading uc&c grr. My chmod alias is broken 10:40am what's uc&c? an old book i picked up recently abi uc&c hmmm... uc&c is Understanding Computers and Cognition or skip GEB if you have half a brain 10:50am * water/#tunes takes a look at the aspic2000 report needs a bit of reworking, but it's basically here if you have suggestions on reworking it,... how did your bosses become interested in reflection, btw? abi: jbs is also interested in reflection as a way to build flexible distributed systems okay, Fare. sure, but how did they get introduced to it and how did they come to consider it a viable option? i already know what they're paying you for ;) well, they tried a lot of other approaches before jbs tried to standardize a distributed object model at the OMG oh so they know the downfalls of the alternatives 11:00am he also is friend with Akinori Yonezawa, who uses reflection in ABCL/x ok that explains a lot * Fare/#Tunes wonders if he's disseminating trade secrets from France Telecom... n/m then property is theft. s/^/intellectual / :P fare doesn't care about the planet, just the programs written on it ;) planet? what planet? isn't earth flat and with 4 corners? exactly the reflective system that holds the programs 11:10am what is symbolic logic? hehe the boolean algebra of propositions plus first-order quantification like "there exists" or "for all" x, ... hmm hats modal logic? whats that's first-order standard predicate logic, anyway abi: logic logic is see http://cs.wwc.edu/%7Eaabyan/Logic/ well, most people think modal logic is just about quantifiers where you can say "it's possible that" or "it's necessary that" x, ... thats what those definitions said. but modal logic is also about negation and identity or about reasoning about a set of interconnected states (like a program's control and data-flow points) water: can you write a logic page for the review project? or maybe a section on dmoz? the stuff on modal logic on that page is 40 years old hm at least they reference aiml at the bottom of the page fare: when i get time after working on slate as soon as i get the mop spec nailed down, i can write up a tutorial and describe the entire system 11:20am water: when did you get interested in math? well i *really* got interested in math when i was 14, when my geometry teacher taught about formal proof systems, bolyai-lobachevsky geometry, and the axiomatic method you were lucky (BL geometry says that more than two lines parallel to a given line can run through the same point on a plane) yes i was you got that in a public school? yes it was an advanced class and a *very* unusual teacher 14. hmm. what state? tx i wasnt that lucky heh i still remember the day when i figured out group theory on my own actually i think i would have done better if the public school system hadnt wasted my time. bad excuse :) yeah but i got to blame someone. ;) same here btw. i only got into maths when i went to university to study maths. i had never heard about formal proof before. only way i learned about these things is the web and browsing through ucfs library. the web is terrible to learn from unless there's a clear path already plowed for you thats why my knowledge is patchy and underdeveloped. :) abi has lots of url's stuffed into her i noticed i will be spending more time here oh great, yet another lurker ;) haha * coreyr/#tunes frowns. water: can i ask a personal question? 11:30am yeah sure not that i need your permission. :) corey: btw, you know this place is logged publicly, right? ::shurgs:: abi logs? logs are #tunes logs at http://www.tunes.org/files/irc i have nothing to hide. if it comforts you in any way, i feel terribly ashamed about not having put anything useful into tunes yet. i know but i use these logs for what use? it definitely comforts me ;) corey: ucfs? university of central florida its supposed to be for meetings, but no one meets reliably * Fare/#Tunes wants to meet ends i meet ends just fine, it's the hours that kill me corey: your question? do you think your cynical? corey: does it matter? :) does anything it'd lighten up things. "cynical" is a pretty useless terms term, even you just seem sometimes a little abrasive oh i am :) it's a philosophy i smack people around with ascii streams all the time :) ho kuon eimi! huh? oic you see what?