IRC log started Tue Apr 11 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0411
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<smoke> hoy
08:40am
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* Fufie/#tunes hangs himself with a coax cable
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
-:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (Ping timeout for coreyr[net255ip95.parklink.com])
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* Fare/#Tunes is back
<eihrul> gakuk
02:50pm
-:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason)
<Fare> gakuk!
03:00pm
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<irack> hello all
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04:10pm
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<lar1> Fare:  Ping?
<Fare> pong
* Fare/#Tunes is beepable
<lar1> Ah.
<Fare> oh
<lar1> I have been working on a proposal for a "SubProject status page"
<lar1> http://www.tunes.org/~lar1/tunes/projects.php3
<lar1> It just has one entry -- as I don't know the status of the other projects
04:20pm
<lar1> Are you willing to keep the Sub Projects you head updated?  (Its a simle webform)
<Fare> lar1: can I modify them?
<lar1> Fare:  As of yet -- no.  However, the "member's managemet" scripts are about half done.  I'd expect to see them by the end of this week, hopefully.
<Fare> brb
<lar1> k...
04:30pm
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-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (:D)
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<water> hey, i'm afk for a bit (house work)
<water> if you have something to discuss, msg me
06:30pm
<water> nothing?
<water> ping
06:40pm
<water> apparently the tunes web db has been moderately configured
* water/#tunes watches as some tumbleweed rolls by.
06:50pm
<water> :/
<water> if anyone wants me to explain something, i would be willing to participate
<eihrul> hey
-:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes
<water> !
<water> hi kyle
<Kyle_L> hello
<water> say, you're the kyle who's participating in temporally local tunes mlist noise, aren't you? ;)
<Kyle_L> yes
* water/#tunes <- highly opinionated, and intentionally so
<water> well give me a minute please to take care of some housework, and then i'd like to discuss various things
<water> is that ok?
<Kyle_L> yes
07:00pm
<water> good, bbiaf
<eihrul> escape while you still can! :)
<coreyr> heh
07:10pm
<water> hm ignore these fellows ;)
<water> seriously, i'm busy spring-cleaning tonight, so i won't have time to banter
<water> at any rate, kyle, i'm sure you have things you wish to discuss or ask
<water> (as well as corey and eih i'm sure)
<Kyle_L> I was just trying out IRC for the first time: started here.
<water> i'd first like to know what you really thought of arrow and particularly the paper
<water> hm ok
<Kyle_L> I thought it was very well written.
<water> well, keep in mind that the channel IS logged, and i am very interested in making good use of those logs
<water> thx, keep in mind of course the paper was written while in the persian gulf and i have learned much since then
<Kyle_L> I was looking for some implementation, almost found it on your Slate page, but it only had titles
<water> right, but slate happens to BE the intended implementation :)
<water> well, it'll bootstrap arrow
<Kyle_L> I am using an ergo-keyboard, my hunt-and-peck is slower then usual
<water> fine, i am re-arranging my room, so be aware i might take some time to respond
<water> by the way, abi is the channel infobot and i will use her to provide url's to interesting sites for you to see
<water> if you have questions of any kind, start asking
<Kyle_L> thanks
<Kyle_L> I am wondering what an arrow is.
<Kyle_L> It appears, to me, to be a pointer.
-:- ult [ult@user-37kba1r.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes
<Kyle_L> but a little different.  I think I have a similar construct, but I do not know unless I see a formal arrow
<water> well, it's just a kind of abstraction.... the idea is that any formalism that you use that admits of an arrow modelling can be used as an arrow to a limited degree
<water> such as a Lisp CONS cell
<water> (which happens to use pointers, of course)
<Kyle_L> YES!  That was the word I was looking for.
07:20pm
<water> heh ok
<water> cons cells work as arrows to extent, but like all formalisms, they break down as a model-constructing tool at some point
<Kyle_L> I would model an 'arrow' with a 3-tuple (ID, tail, head).  What is your model?
<water> in modern computing, bits are ubiquitous as base-level constructs... these have inherent assumptions that i am beginning to learn to formalize
<water> hm
<water> yes, that works, but it's just a model
<Kyle_L> of course
<water> sometimes, (head, tail) is just as important
<Kyle_L> mmmm
<water> er (tail, head)
<Kyle_L> modeling bits.  I need to do that too.  I have been putting it off.
<water> well, any programming language in a sense is a model of bits, of course
<Kyle_L> DBOS is a large because of my desire not to model 'arrows' and bits, but there is only so far you can go without doing so.
<water> "is a large"? what does that mean?
<Kyle_L> I was thinking of modeling bits with minimal interpretation, simplest model
<Kyle_L> means that my typos are numerous
<water> heh
<Kyle_L> do bits always come in blocks of 2^n?
<Kyle_L> can an efficient system exist that only allows those sizes?
<water> er
<Kyle_L> what is the interface to a block-of-bits object look like?
<water> well, addressable memory using binary numbers as bit-fields makes 2^n sizes attractive ;)
<water> well, a bit-field (as i call it) has an abstract formalism in lattice theory and group theory, as well as mappings of those models into other interesting theories
07:30pm
<Kyle_L> I do not like the idea of byte or word, seems arbitrary to choose a particular n, other than zero of course.
<water> and those formalisms actually are quite natural
<water> 2^n sizes make pointers very space-efficient
<water> you should read Shannon's information theory
<water> abi shannon
<abi> shannon is probably see http://www.itr.unisa.edu.au/~alex/shannon.html
<eihrul> and it is very rare that anyone could afford more addressable memory than such
<Kyle_L> good, 'bit-field' is a great name.  I was using 'bit-chunk'!!  :)
<water> you should read the first paper mentioned on that url's page
<Kyle_L> is abi a magical being?
<water> "A Mathematical Theory of Communication"
<water> abi: you?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn
<water> thank you, abi :)
<abi> no worries water
<water> abi is an infobot program run from hcf's account on tunes.org
<Kyle_L> I barely remember my own phone number.
<water> anyway... bit-fields
<water> hey, it's your turn ;)
<Kyle_L> thinkin.......
<Kyle_L> If bit-fields are used do they need a helper interface to use them in a conventional manner (bytes and words)?
* water/#tunes sighs
<Kyle_L> With a field of bits there would be a lot of bit shifting.  Having a word size has advantages.
<water> what is the big picture with this?
<water> i don't consider bit-fields, bytes, words, etc a very significant issue
<Kyle_L> I have to store strings in the DBOS that only allows for fixed sized records.  I need to make a compiler 
<water> however, i'm used to working in languages where you don't have to worry about such things unless you want to
07:40pm
<water> have you ever used squeak?
<Kyle_L> I need a model for bit fields to communicate with the physical machine about the code I compile.
<water> it's a high-level reflective implementation for smalltalk that models its own memory store
<Kyle_L> How?
<water> (hm how do i put this delicately)
<water> take a look at the code in squeak and learn a bit from it
<water> i'm here to discuss tunes, arrow, or slate, or something directly causally or inferentially related
<Kyle_L> DBOS almost models its own memory, but compiling is another issue.
* water/#tunes points at the #tunes topics
<water> how does dbos *directly* relate to tunes?
-:- yinzen [foobar@cx158568-a.okcnw1.ok.home.com] has joined #tunes
<coreyr> why do geeks seems to have interpersonal problems? :)
<water> hi yinzen
<coreyr> water: *ahem?*
<yinzen> hello
<water> corey: this is *not* personal
<Kyle_L> It s my attempts at a Tunes specification.
<coreyr> water: :P
<water> well, explain how it satisfies what has been laid out on the website *directly*
<water> i can most certainly explain how slate derives from the hll and tunes pages
<water> yinzen: can we answer some questions for you?
<coreyr> water: you make up what you lack in amiablity in expertise.
<water> corey: i don't lack, i suppress
<coreyr> :P
<water> get a life, corey
<coreyr> heh
<water> i'm sorry, but i want to discuss tunes
<Kyle_L> I will nedd time.  Tunes has only been known to me for 20 days.  Some particulars must be worked out.
<water> well, please do so quickly
<water> i have read the tunes docs every month for the last 5 years or so
<water> it took me quite a while to pinpoint exactly what tunes was and what it was not
07:50pm
<water> i had the idea for arrow even before tunes existed, and it took me even longer to formalize
<yinzen> hehe dont tempt me =)
<water> yin: hm?
<yinzen> to start asking questions
<water> well, my point is that the quote "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" applies to a certain extent to Tunes as well as Arrow
<water> it happens to everyone who joins the tunes mlist and has their own cool ideas which they proceed to confuse with tunes
<water> *everyone*. even i have been afflicted with this thing i call "concept fusion"
<Kyle_L> I am willing to accept the possibility I am wrong of course.
<coreyr> Kyle_L: doubtful
<water> well also be willling to accept the possibility that you make noise
<Kyle_L> I am not sure of the definition of concept fusion
<water> wrt tunes of course, not wrt your own ideas
<water> abi: concept fusion is the in-ability to distinguish between two presented concepts even when the evidence lies in the presentation
<Kyle_L> thanks
<water> i'm not saying the evidence is *auto*-evident, but nevertheless it is always there
<coreyr> water: did you coin it, or do you have a source i can follow up on?
<water> i've heard it used among math professors and in books i have read occasionally
<water> but they never explicitly define it
<water> any questions further?
<coreyr> none at present for me.
<coreyr> i have a lot to read.
<water> you certainly do :)
08:00pm
<water> kyle, yinzen: tunes, arrow, slate, or other language ideas or concepts?
<Kyle_L> Maybe I will work on a doc to show DBOS and Tunes objectives.   
<yinzen> pliant
<water> yin: are you working with pliant people?
<yinzen> i have been studying it
<water> oh
<yinzen> just recently found it
<yinzen> slate sounds interesting too, but too abstract for me to understand yet, and not able to be played with yet so ..
<water> ok well i don't know volumes about it, but i know the general architecture and its language-relatives
<water> i personally find pliant's concepts to be rather hack-ish, but then i'm a purist :)
<yinzen> that must be why slate is too difficult for me to understand but pliant seems actually able to be grapsed by me with some tinkering and reading
<yinzen> hehe
<water> well, slate has no good intro or tutorial yet
<yinzen> well perhaps it will gear me up for the real deal ... when it exists ;)
<water> the docs start where beta, self, and lisp docs stop
<water> if eihrul gets the time to help, and i get my specs done, that could be soon
<eihrul> well, dolphin is on hold indefinitely
<eihrul> so, school permitting, only thing i'm working on is compiler
<water> for you or overall?
<eihrul> for me, anyway
<yinzen> really the only language that I can actually get things done with and understand and has some kind of elegance and sense of design to it is python.  but i am desperate for something even more profound
<eihrul> there's plenty of better languages out there
<water> yin: have you tried squeak?
<yinzen> scheme/lisp seem interesting but I cant seem to find much on how to do anything really major with them. or the library type code allready written to do things like python can do
<yinzen> no I havnt really .. i downloaded once a long time ago and played with it for a bit, but didnt get a chance to really dig into smalltalk.
<water> yin: looked at www.lisp.org ?
<ult> Play with me!
<water> there are plenty of good free environments for lisp and scheme
-:- TornToast [flop@210-55-149-133.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #tunes
<yinzen> yah, I guess I just havnt been able to 'get it' yet .. i wish there was a Programming Common Lisp O'reilly book.
<water> hi tom toast
<yinzen> and there are so many schemes, ugh
<TornToast> 'ello
08:10pm
<water> hm well, i'm no lisp guru, but perhaps eihrul can point you in the right direction
<eihrul> "ANSI Common Lisp"
<water> torn: got questions about tunes?
<yinzen> k, thankyou eihrul i will look into it.
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Hey! It's newbie night! :-) || TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<eihrul> note, the book, not the language
<yinzen> nod
<TornToast> I'm looking for information on Retro besides the retro home page?
<Kyle_L> bye
-:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> eh?
<water> uh did i just scare him off or something?
<water> hm i guess he lost track of the conversation
<water> torn: the home page is pretty much all the info there is
<water> you'll have to mail tcn or catch him while on irc
<TornToast> Doh. Thanks.
* water/#tunes commences to place the components of his stereo system
<water> np
08:20pm
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<water> re
<water> well eih, if you have questions, bring 'em up
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kba1r.dialup.mindspring.com])
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<eihrul> just frustrations
<water> well vent 'em :)
<eihrul> rmm, just downed routes and lag
<water> oh
08:30pm
<coreyr> i have a question that might be a little basic
* eihrul/#tunes hmms.
<eihrul> need to think of how i want my type model to work... :/
<coreyr> abi: lazy
<eihrul> am pondering just using prototypes at this point over lisp type model
<water> hm lazy eval?
<coreyr> yeah
<water> i have a good paper on it
<water> i got it from RI
<water> abi: ri?
<abi> ri is, like, researchindex at http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/cs?dd=2
<coreyr> on ~water?
<coreyr> kay
<coreyr> thanks
<water> no, search for "lazy evaluation"
<water> eih: how do you mean?
<eihrul> water: but then again, by time compiler design is finished, you might have specified slate before i the implementation lisp
<water> are you considering making a lisp from scratch just to make slate out of?
08:40pm
<eihrul> yes, providing slate is not done by time i start
<water> huh?
<water> dude there can't be *that* much left to do
<water> the primitive ideas are pretty basic
<water> (no pun intended)
<eihrul> well, as i said, if it is ready, i'll use it :)
<water> uh sure
<eihrul> eh?
<water> i just don't see what's not straightforward about implementing a slate object system
<water> it doesn't have to have great features, it just has to work for now
<eihrul> well, it has to support the implementation of a compiler...
<water> besides, an optimizing compiler for minimal lisp makes some of the self optimization ideas inapplicable
<water> huh?
<water> what are you talking about?
<eihrul> bootstrapping
<water> what does that have to do with the initial implementation?
<eihrul> everything!
<water> why would writing a lisp from scratch help bootstrapping? lisp is just as far from slate as c++ in some ways
<water> you must be using terms in ways i don't
<water> explain exactly what your plan(s) are
<eihrul> given whatever language:
<eihrul> 1) write a small interpreter for it in lisp
<eihrul> 2) write a real compiler for the language in the language itself
<water> ohhh
<water> n/m then
<water> you answered a question i wasn't asking
<water> <water> are you considering making a lisp from scratch just to make slate out of?
<water> <eihrul> yes, providing slate is not done by time i start
<Fare> s/interpreter/compiler/
<Fare> and that's the whole point that pliant (among others) taught us:
<water> whichever
<Fare> reflective interpreters are BAD
<Fare> reflective compilers are GOOD
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<eihrul> umm, fare, hush
<water> hm is that in the aspic2000 review of yours, fare?
<Fare> r interpreters have constant factor slowdown
<eihrul> the interpreter is just enough so that i can write the real compiler
<eihrul> you completely took my statement out of context
<Fare> r compilers have constant slowdown
<yinzen> did someone say pliant?
08:50pm
<yinzen> ;)
<water> Fare can tell you about pliant
<Fare> yinzen: yes?
<Fare> I can't tell you more than you can figure out through the web site, source, etc. The right person to query for details is the pliant mailing list
<eihrul> Fare: writing a full implementation of a compiler other than in the language itself is wholly a fruitless and wasted effort
<yinzen> well I have been studying it, and wondering how it compares to some of TUNES requirements for a langauge
<Fare> eihrul: if you pick up a subset of LISP that's also a (semantic) subset of your language, that's ok.
<Fare> yinzen: the general architecture is good. However, Pliant is often too low-level and stuff
<Fare> I'd like the tunes hll to be to pliant what ocaml is to C.
<yinzen> hmm, is it intended to be extended to any degree necessary to reach higher levels of abstraction?
<Fare> sure
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<yinzen> and slate is going to be that hll ?
<Fare> maybe
<water> it at least is a debating point, once i write a good intro and tutorial so people can grok it
<water> that way the differences between tunes hll specs and slate can be disinguished
<Fare> oops. time to goto 3053
<Fare> kukag!
-:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (:Connection reset by pear)
<yinzen> kukag!?
<yinzen> bog
<water> although Fare will probably disagree on the basis that slate != scheme :)
<yinzen> ahh I see an implementation to see just what it means to implement such a thing.
<eihrul> well, it'd be a first...
<water> what'd be a first?
<eihrul> to have an implementation to see just what it means to implement a tunes
<water> oh
<water> well, i had something like slate/clos with a gui back in '95
<water> i didn't sleep for two weeks while making it
<eihrul> rmm, don't people just plop over dead after lack of that much sleep?
<water> nope, not if you take care of your body and mind properly
09:00pm
<coreyr> dont you hallucinate?
<eihrul> well, i stayed up for 4 days, got epilepsy :)
<water> if you count meditation as sleep, then yes i slept
<water> but i certainly didn't lie down for it or become unconscious
<water> but of course, i bent my entire schedule to make it work
<water> i didn't make many of my classes that week, for instance
<water> er... those weeks
<eihrul> anyway, lucky for you, i estimate at least 1-2 months for a full implementation design and plan of attack for compiler
<water> cool
<water> how much for a basic implementation?
<water> i.e. don't worry about the literal system or non-trivial i/o
<eihrul> compiler would be impossible without literals
<water> of course
<eihrul> well, atleast very complex
<eihrul> interpreter can be blurted out over a weekend or two though :)
<water> well i'll need the basic implementation in order to work with the system to make sure i get the literals right
<water> good
<water> in order to support mo's, it needs to be able to return a representation of the object in question
<water> as a primitive
<water> this is definitely a problem, so don't worry about mo's just yet
<water> i'll most likely simulate them or something
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<water> just provide a very simple mo interface that gives, say, the list-representation of the object's message protocol
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us233.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- hcf_ is now known as hcf
<water> (using slate-style cons cells)
09:10pm
<water> you know, objects with two slots only
<water> and keep application primitive for now
<water> since i only need to work with message-forwarding during application phase
<water> are you getting all of this?
<eihrul> yes
<water> ok
<water> this should be simple enough and complete enough to work from for the first prototype
<eihrul> but if not for bmo's, then what is slate? :)
<water> btw, adding literals will be the first test of dynamic primitives
<water> hm
<water> yes, don't worry about them just yet. i still must work out some of the details there
<water> just take it for granted that it should be pretty simple to add the support
<water> (in the way i request it)
<water> well, i'll be at the terminal intermittently for the next hour or so
* water/#tunes returns to fiddling with the stereo
09:20pm
<water> hey corey
<coreyr> yep
<water> do you know about foldoc?
<coreyr> no
<water> abi: foldoc for lazy evaluation
<abi> lazy evaluation may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=lazy+evaluation
<water> btw, use a query window to ask abi for things
<water> (i only do it in the channel to illustrate the syntax)
<coreyr> water: no problem.
<water> oh, and icuc, i used to be a very good and well-paid tutor :)
09:30pm
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<water> la dee da
<coreyr> water: night.
<water> ok
10:00pm
<water> abi: oasis is a smalltalk framework for modularization and control of side-effects at http://oasis.canis.uiuc.edu:8080/Oasis
10:20pm
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<water> hi tom
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0412
IRC log ended Wed Apr 12 00:00:01 2000