IRC log started Tue May 2 00:00:01 2000 you should read up on lisp macros or something like that It's hard to motivate myself to learn LISP or something, when it'll have no real practical benefit. This is probably the wrong thing to say to a tunes person. :) [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0502 whats the difference with a good language ? uh, productivity, maybe? :) no, many others would say the same and not like tunes there are some very good lisp environments free ones in particular Every time I've looked at a functional language, there's always warnings about how there's this or that built in compromise so the language is capable of handling menus and other stuff. "menus"?!? wtf languages are you looking at? And I'm thinking "uh? the language philosophy is so bizarre that it can't handle any directives?" Languages like Haskell, Scheme, or any functional language as opposed to procedural langauge. haskell has monads Are monads an added method to handle procedural directives? monads make functional programming less of a pain sort of spewbabe: side-effects are powerful, but so is purity That's the kind of compromise I'm reading about, I guess. they're a kind of function that modifies the environment, which has a similar effect as a procedure I don't get the distinction. side-effects modify varaibles which are part of the environment's state well, one simulates side-effects the other IS side-effects * water/#tunes nods What are "side-effects", the way you're using the word? lol awesome and you're a tuneser? No, I joined the mailing list to see what it was about. check the glossary damn it takes a few seconds to download hm not very good explanation in the "side effects" entry ok well here goes a little explanation side effects basically make computations unpredictable (common in c) because you don't know when evaluating something whether an unrelated variable will be affected if a language has no side-effects, than you can't screw anything up this way so fopen() has a side effect of modifying the system table of file descriptors, which could affect the functioning of another call? 12:10am there are procedural languages called Single-Assignment languages that act like functional languages in this way fread() will fail unless using the side effect of fopen()? Is that reasoning right? yeah something like that Seems to me that any language that doesn't allow for side effects is also a language that totally lacks the ability to interface with the outside world. fwrite () is a better example not true but that's not the point tunes is not about purity alone Do any people argue for the virtues of purity? the significance is being able to say when side effects are useful and trusted and when they are not hell yes the haskell crowd for one or ML Have any large real-world projects been written in those systems? grrr what is it somehow less legitimate if Word isn't written in Haskell? s/isn't/is/ It would be a demonstration that the language is complete enough to handle a set of events that wasn't pre-defined by academics. i remember a paper on that it was some military evaluation of languages yeah well that's a problem with modern cs research and haskell pretty much wiped the floor with the others :) Fare is a great example of that (which were both procedural and functional languages including Ada, C++, etc) yeah haskell has some good apps Eg, the difference between a voice recognisation system that understands speech if, and only if, the following situations are true, versus a voice recognisation system used by real people who couldn't give a shit about professor Klop * eihrul/#tunes thinks spewbabe should learn Haskell. I'm thinking I probably should too. applications of a language are more directly proportionaly to hype than to actual usefulness, sadly in the absence of hype of course, merit is all that's left :) That looks interesting - being able to define a bunch of expressions and not having to worry about what order it gets executed. yeah 12:20am Obviously blows away variable re-use, but that's not all that important anymore. there's another interesting property called referential transparency where you can guarantee that the same expression will work the same way anywhere in a program spewbabe: monads! hehe also, variable re-use is also a barrier to compilation and most compilers will eliminate it before working with code :) yep * eihrul/#tunes hates to think about compilers before static single assignment... shudder. What's a good Haskell implementation to download, for Linux? I'm at the download page, and there's quite a few * water/#tunes shrugs Hugs (well, for learning) Yeah, that one looks best. "The Little Haskeller" is a good tutorial ooh did Felleisen write it? not sure or is it a cheap knock-off? ;) I like the idea of a programming language based on spreadsheets. The Little Haskeller (John Hughes and Cordelia Hall) @ http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~rjmh/AFP/manuals/haskeller.dvi.gz I also like the lack of ((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))'s. I understand that ((()))'s aren't evaluation modifiers like they are in C, but form a list element, but it looks farking ugly. yeah tell me about it 12:30am One of my regrets about Forth is that I never learned enough to make it do anything useful. It's so minimalistic, it's too painful to get to a point where it's useful. I hope Haskell won't be in the same category. hm well ansi forth has a decent library i've heard spewbabe: well, you don't respect the parentheses until you respect lisp macros :) chicken-and-the-egg situation The same situation that tunes faces. :) well, so long as we make the chicken, making eggs is easy :) I'd argue with that viewpoint... so long as we make the egg, making chickens (well, one!) is easy. :) (that qualifier was a compromise in my pure no-side-effects argument) :) well, from a bootstrapping perspective, you build the chicken first (it doesn't even have to be a "real" chicken, just chicken enough to lay a complete egg) what a metaphor :) i wonder if spew could handle slate after learning haskell otoh my documentation is not up to par yet :) * water/#tunes shuffles off to his html-editor 12:40am The chickens that hatch out of the egg needn't be a real chicken either - just enough to lay more eggs. Now I feel like I'm Chuck Moore. -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) heh spewbabe: not quite... notice i said the chicken just has to be real enough to lay a complete (in the feature sense) egg I wonder if Haskell would evaluate chicken first, or egg first. How does it solve recursive definitions? lazily, if not any other way! spewbabe: subsequent generations will be real chickens -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes Not if I ate the first eggs for breakfast haskell will avoid the problem completely :) (as I'm a procedural C type programmer, anything I do is by definition laden with side effects. :) Anyway, back to my real world job. Been good chatting with you guys. -:- SignOff spewbabe: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ Downix: http://www.aio.co.uk/downes.html 12:50am water: abi doesnt have a smack command per se, i did the smack fare thing like this: abi: smack fare is smacks Fare yeah i was just wondering abi: smack fare * abi/#tunes smacks Fare justa kludge to get around her not having a regular action cmd 01:00am -:- vvater [water@tnt-10-179.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-62.tscnet.net]) -:- vvater is now known as water hmmm, 1:30 how the time flies.... m 01:40am damn it, the list of papers i should read always grows whoa ? * water/#tunes just stumbled on the the source for Fare's drawings for explaining reflective architectures a reflective oop book for agora getting late, i better sleep... g'night k -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) hm not much to stick around for, though i will not likely get sleep i'll be back on wednesday -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:50am -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn149.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn149.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [02:22am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[msx-osl-15-34.ppp.cybercity.no]) -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-15-34.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes water: drawings? 04:50am -:- dirt [lysergicac@216.89.84.6] has joined #tunes gakuk 05:50am salut, toi! 06:00am -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lewis.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- lewis.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(6)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(423)] 44% -:- [invisible users on irc(541)] 56% -:- [ircops on irc(14)] 1% -:- [total users on irc(964)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(31)] (avg. 31 users per server) -:- [total channels created(370)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !lewis.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 14 (13 clients) !lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ Downix: http://www.aio.co.uk/downes.html -:- topic set by hcf [Tue May 2 00:46:13 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:6)] [ TUNES ] [ dirt ] [ Ghyll ] [ corey ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.603 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us105.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- XeF4 [xef4@cube2.babel.dk] has joined #tunes -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-15-34.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn249.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hoy smoke 09:40am In a static language like OCaml, you distinguish constants from variables in patterns depending on the context (scope). In a dynamic language like Prolog, you use a syntactic disambiguifier ?a. In Perl, that's $a. I wonder what to do for my LISP pattern matcher. I wonder what to do for my LISP pattern matcher. Attractive solutions include using the scope with defaults depending on a variable's name, or maybe using ,a for variables. 09:50am -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bar) fare: huh? oh fare: is it about a problem -implementing- lisp or a problem someone is having -with- lisp? implementing a lisp dialect in lisp 10:30am oh, ok then i don't understand it :) never mind sorry I'm trying to specify the syntax&semantics of the tunes pattern language, in a way that patterns can be 1) first-class 2) symmetrically usable for both constructing and deconstructing objects 3) efficiently compilable when static 10:40am drawings? 11:20am drawings?? yo no se. 11:30am -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-17-15.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us243.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn249.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn249.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (foo) -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- doitdoid [doitdoid@lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net] has joined #tunes is anyone there??/ * corey/#tunes snores. hi who here has mirc??? me you are on mirc??? hum 01:30pm corey what was that again??? dd: this channel is not about mirc. Try the mirc homepage for help >>> corey [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] requested VERSION from #tunes so who has tunes??? anyone have mp3"s heh hi nice try, but no cigar heh what??? -:- doitdoid [doitdoid@lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net] has left #tunes [] * corey/#tunes smiles and returns to slumber. :-] Fare: you had to choose tunes as a name didnt you :P -:- ult [ult@user-38lc6f4.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes hmm 01:40pm -:- aligod [Aligod@AC82B7EE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes does anyone know: would it be possible to add support for DOS binaries to a unix kernel? -:- SignOff corey: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- corey [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes 02:00pm aligod: no ... go ask linux mailing list if they want to add that to their kernel, somebody will come and kill you nah what is wrong with dosemu? yeah it's not just for practical purposes i want to learn or something hum well, it should be easy enough to implement any pointless program as a linux module 02:10pm i want the dos binary (32bit extended dos COFF/ or PE) to run as a unix program it might be possible to run those in a way that is more practical than dosemu -:- aligod [Aligod@AC82B7EE.ipt.aol.com] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (Leaving) 02:20pm -:- Downix [down@dialup-209.245.99.247.Manchester1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp153.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error to Downix[dialup-209.245.99.247.Manchester1.Level3.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp404.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) * Fare/#Tunes is back -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fare [fare@r120m118.cybercable.tm.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc6f4.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff corey: #TUNES (reboot) -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (bbl) -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (:Connection reset by pear) -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- ult [ult@user-37kba0l.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) * Fare/#Tunes is away -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh21-port11.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@nwhn-sh21-port11.snet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kba0l.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[lantier.enst.fr]) -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us200.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- ult [ult@user-38lcn4s.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp153.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES ([BX] Save water -- drink beer!) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp165.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn249.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- nate37 [nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0503 IRC log ended Wed May 3 00:00:00 2000