IRC log started Sun May 14 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0514 -:- water [water@tnt-9-185.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes yo 02:10am -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System, http://www.tunes.org/ || The Slate Language, http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- numh [root@TruPPP2758.inet.co.th] has joined #tunes hi numh is there anything i can do for you? 02:20am what is you talk abount in this channel well, we're working on the tunes computing system (still in the design and prototyping stages) http://www.tunes.org oh .exiting exiting? what about tunes computing system? well, what do you want to know? it's very different from other things is it new computerarchitecture? 02:30am no, it's a new software architecture based on an advanced language where are you want to use? Linux?,windows ?or ? we use a language that's reflective so that we can use the language to extend the system to support multiple language paradigms no, it's a stand-alone system that can be run as an OS or on top of other OSes what current status of this project? well, the requirements for the design have been very demanding... currently there is a language implementation being developed we're working on a dynamic compiler system to start the implementation what is your risk? so right now, there's not much code to use risk? what do you mean? sorry .may be i type wrong word . well anyway, tunes has been difficult mostly in pinning down the right design required to meet the goals of the project, since we have to invent some new programming language ideas thank you for explain that. no problem 02:40am -:- numh [root@TruPPP2758.inet.co.th] has left #tunes [] * water/#tunes reads up on linear naming -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn136.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp177.lvdi.net]) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr]) -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-185.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-216.s216.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey hcf hey my friend the web coder met a lisp guru the other day k seems like something might happen there anyway i gave him access to my tunes account so he could work on the html etc 07:00am any other news? hm lots of work on syntax and semantics ideas subtle stuff though mostly related to making it work better and make more sense to the programmer my connection still sucks, i'm apt to ping out too bad i access tunes.org now tho k btw the lisp guy's name is gary byers he used to work at jpl i hear jpl? not much is online about him jet propulsion labs, silly? nasa s/?/! :)/ i missread the at, assume it was a 'w/' s/ume/umed/ ah nasa uses lisp? i guess... elric said something about real-time applications of lisp i thot they prefered buggy ada i also told elric to try to contact tril dunno that's military apps i think anyway i have another book arriving today, to complement the one i got on category theory "info in distributed systems" -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-216.s216.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-216.s216.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes :) 07:10am -:- dirt [cogito@riga12.mohawk.net] has joined #tunes hi dirt hello water several weeks (months?) ago, when we "spoke" here before, i remember you being violently against any kind of categorization well, maybe not "violently" :-] but you didn't seem to want to divide things up into like type was that just on a system level? hm i mean, there has to be a place for this sort of thing, right? is it at the application level (w/databases and such) that you would do this? why do you bring up categorization? did you read the logs or something? no i was sherlock at the time i think ah what date? i'd like to recall the context dunno hm i might have been dortmunder but i don't think i was here too much as either of those nicks so it shouldnt' be too hard to find well a categorization basically tries to fit a system into a formal theory water: 2000.0301: basically, i was talking about gathering data and you scoffed at that obviously i'm paraphrasing * water/#tunes is taking a look * dirt/#tunes doesn't do logs for the most part abi: tell dirt about #tunes logs hcf thx but that's why i first showed up because someone had shown them too me :-] to 07:20am hm netsplits that day oh well oh shit i remember now TUNES did disappear for a little anyhow, my question now is well the discussion got muddied because i was trying to explain what ontologies were yes? okay fine i'm a jerk and need to be educated heh c'mon just ask the question -:- dirt [cogito@riga12.mohawk.net] has left #tunes [] huh? i think i offended him or something :( /msg him, he's still on lol i am hm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-216.s216.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) well, he got upset, but he might be coming back, who knows 07:30am at least he's not really holding it against us (afaict) hm is anyone else here not lurking? -:- dirt [cogito@riga12.mohawk.net] has joined #tunes i wish i could remember the question :-] 07:40am hm i'm kidding oh well the basic idea of an ontology is that any formal theory, including categorizing data, is something that's defined by consensus abi: ontology? hmmm... ontology is a statement of a logical theory in some domain or what a person believes to be provable. i.e. what _can_ possibly be done in the world sure hm lost the url well anyway, agents in arrow are supposed to share info by matching up and commiting to ontologies okay there's a book uc&c that really goes into why this idea is more natural than ordinary programming practice abi uc&c uc&c is Understanding Computers and Cognition or skip GEB and read a real book like this one :) (yeah that's my entry ;) abi GEB GEB is _Goedel, Escher, Bach_ by Douglas Hofstadter or insanely great or forget this nonsense and read a real book like UC&C ahh :-] * smoke/#tunes hasn't read geb, but has heard some idiots talk about it as if it were the bible the statements those people 'quoted' are very wrong and out of context i looked through it once and it seemed decent up to a point where he started describing his own ideas, where it got really fuzzy you a fan of Chaitan water? yep although i haven't been able to get much material that he wrote i'm not that familiar but i did read the speech he just gave a cmu (i think?) and he seems pretty on the ball s/a/at ok yeah it was at cmu apparently 07:50am for log reference, the transcript is at http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/cmu.html well there's a mirror site also this reminds me of icct and agt uc&c is 13 years old is there anything more recent that you like almost as much? hm yeah but not in the exact same field anything on substructural logics, for instance, just plain rocks okay there are two versions of uc&c on fatbrain one with a subtitle with help from Flores in fact, nearly all of my cs books are newer than uc&c is that one more complete? really? what's the subtitle? A new foundation for design hm that's the copy i have okay there's another version that they have in paperback ANFD is newer, the "reissued" form is what i have which is also the newest hm i should watch my grammar as i form it nah usenet and logged irc channels aren't the same as serious documents :-] 08:00am heh sure * water/#tunes returns to reading the cs papers he was reading before hi, water! hey fare what's news? 08:10am hm there would seem to be a threshhold for latency-to-communication ratio where a system that dynamically and trasparently optimizes distribution via run-tme feedback would not have any effect given that the distribution of objects changes faster than the mean time for the optimization feedback loop uh sorry just random thoughts What you say makes sense. what's news fare? AI people say that real AIs have to be meta-stupid in such cases -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp40.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes really? hey eih lo i.e. dump a good old stupid strategy that doesn't try to be too clever ok because it's a dynamic situation and you don't want your ai over-thinking something it should simply throw itself into yup; not just for distributed scheduling, either. ALICE and MACISTE did this that works to a point, but i doubt the ai would be able to learn from it post facto since the relevant facts might not have been recorded you can be meta-half-stupid or you can hav the stupid program log stuff, and analyze logs post-facto well, i'm looking at this term called "thrownness" lately describes the same situation at a more abstract (general systems theory) level also, when the stupid program is a solution search, it becomes easier to analyze things intelligently when you know the path yeah where did you see that term? 08:20am uc&c which culled it from Heidegger so what're you up to lately, Fare? depressing? writing a puny article on free software? hm purchasing a LispM from Symbolics? reading stuff by Alan Bawden? procrastinating my code-writing? what about this fellow you're talking with on the mailing list? Ken Dickey? yeah i'm looking at bawden's stuff sometime today i'm guessing A famous Lisp hacker yes hm i just met another of those well, he posted an interesting message on c.l.scheme who's elric? and who's the guy you met? Gary Byers is the lisp fellow not heard of him elric is a sysadmin and a good programmer who groks the tunes idea he does a lot of web design, and i can motivate him *in person* to get stuff done with the tunes website why not? the site would benefit from some major overhaul yeah he thinks so as well i gave him Tril's mail address and access to my account and he volunteered on his own, i didn't ask him other than explaining what i do with tunes and what it is water: whre are you, physically? seattle (p-where are you?) If I have my LispM sent to Tril's, are you interested to have a look? i'm going to talk with the cecil people next week, btw sure haven't half of them moved to Java, Dylan, and stuff? not sure i got the impression from the website that the project hasn't been active in a year or two, but the major players are still there 08:30am anyway i have 2 weeks vacation starting this weekend where will you be spending them? near seattle i'll be camping out for about 4 days, but otherwise i'll be reachable well i gave elric a thorough tour of the site yesterday, and outlined the problems Tunes has had with people not "on the same page" wrt the concepts and documentation involved we didn't discuss definite solutions, but i mentioned what Tril has been working on (or not?) and various aspects of Tunes technical requirements I'm trying to define some core calculus for my prototype compiler hm I'm lacking precise ideas for the semantics of memory regions looks like the calculus must have an explicit notion of context I mean, you have linear objects, that can be only pointed once and you rewrite stuff inside them hm so that your rewrite rule acts on the "head" of the considered system state (i.e. what's in registers), you have to either "reverse" the linear chain, or to formalize it as an explicit context for computation 08:40am reversing the chain is a truely nice trick, but I feel it badly when it comes to parallelizing computations hm eihrul: any ideas or comments? any Mac knowledgeable person around? i have been considering things only at the GC-transparent level for now water: not following channel this morning, will read logs later hm my calculus is meant to make the link between GC-transparent and GC-explicit yeah i know i was thinking about that a week ago, and linear types and such, but only decided to work out a linearly-typed version of slate later on -:- ult [ult@user-38lcmom.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes but even at GC-transparent level, the calculus is tricky how so? btw the current policy on handling the distribution of slate objects is by reifying distribution domains as namespaces and communication lines uni-directionally as proxies well, the static typing of regioned objects is not obvious to me but this idea hasn't been tested * water/#tunes shrugs i'm not familiar enough with the issues water: seen the way yonezawa usesq reflection for distributed programming? 08:50am mmm sounds familiar got a url? or a paper title or something? my paper collection is getting out of hand i think yeah i read his stuff. iu just found it s/iu/i/ must in in Review/Reflection.html hum. There's a need for a compressing, indexing, bibligraphing, versioning, persistent web cache for papers. yeah i use RI mostly oh icuc non-monotonic inheritance within slate is easily possible and isolable if desired non-monotonic inheritance? 09:00am yeah monotic inheritance is where every subclass must implement all of the protocol of its ancestors Mac hardware is so ridiculous water: is it still inheritance if it's not monotonic? hm good question :) it's probably a question of terms only slate objects only emulate inheritance or delegation or whatever, so i'm not concerned the resolution and bit depth of Mac display is so ridiculously limited! huh? not on ones that i've used otoh i only have used mac clones in the last few years, like powercomputing well, with 4MB VRAM, the topnotch machine will only do 1152x870x24; no 1600x1200x16; not even 1280x1024x16; no x16; and the x24 is actually x32 oh well (not even 1152x900 either; anyway, it can't run X, so I won't be able to gripe about my 1152x900 X setup not working) 09:10am abi: genera? well, genera is the OS for the Symbolics LISP machines or at http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~moeller/symbolics-info/genera/genera.html hm now if you could just fit this system onto a handheld or wearable computer I think KenD tried precisely that on the Newton well about the closest i can think of for this is squeak on a wince device right now, or on bare HW if someone would lend me a Zaurus 09:20am * water/#tunes looks at the symbolics museum n/m back to reading papers 09:30am french government is hell -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) 09:50am -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-185.tscnet.net]) -:- _out [magsilva@200-191-39-30-as.acessonet.com.br] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-172.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes re hi out <_out> hi water 10:20am -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-74-28.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp40.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp14.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-91.s91.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-91.s91.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-91.s91.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Hell yes!) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-137-55.s309.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey atg * AlonzoTG/#tunes slaps water around a bit with a large trout. that's for being twice as smart and me and having the stamina to actually read shit on a daily basis... uh dude i'm also slightly nuts if you haven't noticed... these two sets of facts are related, you know I'm slightly nuts too, but I can't read as much. =( 11:30am I thought you were sane! =P heh I have been doing some group therapy... do you call sane a person who read encyclopedias when he was 6? trying to refill my warm-fuzzy hoard... ah seratonin... hormone of the gods ;) I don't know what hormone I need... =\ I think I mite actually attempt to upgrade my P 100 in a few days... =P hey #dolphin is great for off-topic stuff ;) -:- Kyle_La [Kyle@64.228.43.109] has joined #Tunes kyle: ? yes what's with the clone? That's me too. I left my computer on at home. ah -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) hm lots of lurkers, but no one's talking about tunes 11:40am -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (Ping timeout for dirt[riga12.mohawk.net]) -:- FireSting [nsx36@10-099.027.popsite.net] has joined #tunes hi FS yo W tsup? oh just doing a little reading kool...ciao -:- FireSting [nsx36@10-099.027.popsite.net] has left #tunes [] 11:50am stupid question: is the ia-64 architecture with its big amount of registers better suited for doing functional language programming with? huh? (better than the previous intel machines that is) sure i guess i figured all argument-passing could be done with registers,.. but i wondered if that was easily doabl doable even yeah that's discussed in good compiler books aha what's to be said about compiling to C code instead of directly to native code btw? not much the c compiler has to be really smart to take advantage of underlying architectures which will you be focusing on for slate? which pretty much means you have to optimize it before you generate the c directly to native aha 12:00pm -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (:Connection reset by pear) -:- SignOff Kyle_La: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn136.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn28.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hm the more features i add to slate before it is self-hosted, the slower it'll get by orders of magnitude in some cases * water/#tunes is considering the use of meta-objects for implementing distribution semantics other than proxy-related capabilities 01:10pm hm dynamic wrapper-generation -:- iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #tunes hey storm hm reflection on a communications protocol sounds like Fare's notion of "views" on objects 01:20pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn28.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn28.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z!) -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes smoke: in case you read the logs, use replace, as found in CLHS chapter about sequences 03:50pm -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp416.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-172.tscnet.net]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by adams.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from king.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is king.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from king.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from king.openprojects.net) -:- king.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(88)] 8% -:- [global users on irc(486)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(552)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(19)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(1038)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(32)] (avg. 32 users per server) -:- [total channels created(395)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !king.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 146 (144 clients) !king.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System, http://www.tunes.org/ || The Slate Language, http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Sun May 14 02:17:33 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:10)] [ TUNES ] [ Fare ] [ iStormy ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ eihrul ] [ Kyle_L ] [ smkl ] [ abi ] [ thomas ] [ coreyr ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.102 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-99.s99.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-99.s99.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-99.s99.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-74-28.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- _out [magsilva@200-191-39-46-as.acessonet.com.br] has joined #tunes re _out 06:50pm <_out> hi 07:00pm abi: CCOFM is A Century of Controversy Over the Foundations of Mathematics at http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/cmu.html 07:30pm -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-99.s99.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-99.s99.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-99.s99.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-34.s34.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-34.s34.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-34.s34.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (leaving) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-34.s34.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-34.s34.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Bye) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn125.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Hell(o)) -:- water [water@tnt-10-242.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[207-172-225-34.s34.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) hm [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0515 IRC log ended Mon May 15 00:00:01 2000