IRC log started Mon May 15 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0515 -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [12:05am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #tunes 12:10am -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [12:12am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp14.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn125.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-242.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes abi: libra is a Lazy Interpreter of Binary Relational Algebra at http://www.cs.adelaide.edu.au/users/dwyer/TR95-10.html 12:30am -:- dalvarez [dalvarez@tristan.sc.cs.tu-bs.de] has joined #tunes hey dalvarez greetings everyone water: i've taken a look at your pages on tunes.org but could not find any information about the current state of slate. when do you expect to finish the specs and release a first draft? well i'm working with someone on re-vamping the website right now and i am still working on slate specs and library architecture the reason i stopped updating the site was that the docs were getting unwieldly to maintain 12:40am i read the tutorial (or merely the snipplet i found) and fell in love with the object system's fs-like organization... that's why i'm talking with a web-designer right now about re-implementing the site :) this re-implementation will affect all of my projects, including arrow he wants to clean up the tunes site docs as well, via cvs etc btw, the fs-like (or rather open structure) architecture is someting that's supposed to be a key feature of the UI experience, but the OO syntax for it has been rather troublesome, semantically 12:50am -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn125.delft.casema.net]) -:- Zaphod [anonymous@frotz.net] has joined #tunes hi mr beeblebrox morning is there anything we can do for you? just passing through. finally got around to doing some more work on openblt and this channel popped up while I was ego-surfing on behalf of the project :-) ah well i can answer any questions you have * Zaphod/#tunes is still wandering through the tunes.org site and sorting out what you're all up to k a lot of it is way too vague for my tastes, but the ideas are good ideas are always useful. the BLT kernel is pretty stable these days and I'm trying to decide where I want to go for application support and such ok is tunes bootable / operable at this point? hm i think i was looking at OpenBLT about 4 months ago no, currently compiler and language work is the focus 01:50am hasn't changed a ton, but I finally nailed down all the resource reclaimation bugs in january or so since that's the hardest goal and the central one * Zaphod/#tunes started with getting a basic kernel up and core services going... now it's a matter of what higher level services to provide, etc. might be interesting to play with non C/C++ stuff for application languages ok we're determined to have the os-level services written in a high-level language which is why the os stuff comes after the compiler * Zaphod/#tunes nods. neat idea. I'm still mucking about with this microkernel nonsense so there's only about 4500 lines of kernel code and everything else layers on top ok we're looking at a language-based "no kernel" ideas nice for debugging and bringup. probably will make me suffer if I ever really want to tune for performance * water/#tunes nods but I spent two years working on a modular monolithic kernel (BeOS) and this is a nice diversion from that Fare's put up some odd anti-uK propaganda in the tunes glossary you worked on the BeOS kernel? yah. mostly the scsi and usb subsystems, some driver model work, various other things ok the end result is I'm a bit depressed with the state of linux and such, but ah well, if you're gonna rebuild unix you're gonna rebuild unix yeah which is why I'm considering doing something different than a posixy model... posix has been done n times already have you noticed the slate language at tunes? though it can get you a lot of tools quickly, witness www.atheos.cx, truly an impressive chunk of work * water/#tunes looks saw it and wandered off into the self stuff... a friend of mine was going on about self a while back and I never looked at it then oh yeah i looked at that a little while ago i created a VM-based os back in college it's neat stuff. he "cheats" and uses bios calls to setup vesa, do disk io, etc, but you must admit it let him build a lot of higher level stuff without mucking around with driver writing (something most people are not into) right th 02:00am so slate is being brought up on top of lisp/smalltalk? then the plan is to go native compiler/runtime? yeah that's what we're working on now with self-hosting following that and then booting * Zaphod/#tunes nods. hmm. so self is a prototype based system too. interesting i'm currently working out all the issues with language syntax and libraries yeah self is pretty cool although difficult to implement the nicest thing about the self implementation is how much optimization they get away with without instrumenting the code i.e. all the optimizations are totally transparent one of the toughest notions for slate is the pervasive use of meta-objects to access compiler implementation and modify it dynamically 02:10am -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (bbl) * Zaphod/#tunes calls it a night -:- SignOff Zaphod: #TUNES () -:- FareWell [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes ` -:- SignOff FareWell: #TUNES (:Connection reset by pear) Hum -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes 03:10am -:- Kyle_La [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes hey kyle -:- SignOff Kyle_La: #TUNES (Leaving) hello ole are you up late or early both :) 4am here my 04:00am anything to discuss from you guys? anything to respond to KenD ? me? or not respond to? I'm writing a response to his mail; any comment about that? i don't care about anything not directly related to tunes it is related to tunes! yeah sure i think i mean causally or behaviorally related besides i have snough s*** to read and think about ok this is the same reason i didn't respond to the CLIP discussion, though i listen anyway damn it, ghostview is acting up on me hm i think it's time to reboot... brb -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 04:10am -:- water [water@tnt-9-194.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes re 04:20am woohoo! only 190 papers uncategorized :) 05:10am ok 180 seems to be the lowest reasonable limit 05:20am -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes mmm... solar sail 07:50am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp14.lvdi.net]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey hey -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp170.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hey eih lo water: read the chaitin paper, was interesting... ok *you* read it, or you're suggesting that i do? i read it :) (yeah english sucks) k well, that was improper english if i'd included the pronoun :) i actually finished reading my paper collection categorized all but about 200 though, the paper kind of dashed my hopes of easily finding optimal instruction schedules :) heh don't worry about optimal among NP-complete stuff just get close enough now to finish reading my papers... hm i've been thinking about object distribution lately bmo implementation will eventually get pretty complex... the composition architecture of guarana will eventually be *needed* just to cope with tunes-level issues 08:50am sure, but a tunes-level system would make that complexity easier to express :) oh yeah just wave that magic wand :) oh wait, we're building the damned thing, supposedly :) seriously, that's the job of the std libraries -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) geez what a connection problem -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes anyway i mentioned some things i was thinking about yesterday on the logs 09:00am -:- dirt [lysergicac@stargate.intelligenesis.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-133-189.s189.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey dirt, atg lo water -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn245.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes hmms. 09:20am what's on the noggen? just thinking about constraints how to take advantage of them, how to invalidate them, etc design constraints or programming constraints? well, program constraints is a better term i'm not sure i follow what kind of constraints you're talking about, though well, specialization, mostly :) of what? code based on the structure and values of an object ok, type specialization -:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.81] has joined #tunes perhaps you would consider the kinds of constraint networks sometimes mentioned in research? brief synopsis? :) oh just equational specification in general, sometimes higher-order equations (iow maude-style semantics) -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Read error to _out[200.201.30.81]: Connection reset by peer) 09:30am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[216-164-133-189.s189.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) what an exciting morning :) yep 10:10am i finally put together all the papers i have that talk about reflection and p/e and as a whole they're very impressive but only as a whole, mind you any ones i should look at ? :) there is definitely a segment of every paper category whose analyses or assumptions i totally disagree with or find not applicable hm i don't recall if i've sent you all of these probably not... there's a whole book on ABCL/R covering the general process of creating reflective oo systems i have no idea, though where i got it from hm i'll do a quick search for it -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hcf: could you locate the online content of "Open Design of Object-Oriented Languages" ? perhaps icuc, http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/computing/research/mpg/reflection/index.html hm haven't seen it before the book should be under progwww.vub.ac.be/Research/ somewhere oh boy did u found it within the past 3months? s/it/it there/ yes 10:20am damn it, maybe it wasn't there its by patrick steyaert(sp?) right? right twas linked to from a tunes@ post might be in the review oh rev's link is a 404 big surprise yeah i got a 404 from another place as well u'v been thru http://website.lineone.net/~claus_reinke/bib/bookshelf/Reflection_Meta-Programming.html right? yes oh wait now i remember how i found it prog oops prog's url from their web site to the internal ftp site is mis-matched yes, i'm really obsessed when it comes to finding good research material >:) ftp://progftp.vub.ac.be/dissertation/1994/vub-prog-phd-94-01/ there it is, not at the one mentioned on the book's web page it's prog's fault email them eihrul: did you get that? am doing so now oh great, eih's lagged 10:30am abi: Patrick Steyaert is the author of ODOOL, homepage at http://progwww.vub.ac.be/Members/MembersDetail.asp?ID=30 abi: ODOOL is "Open Design of Object-Oriented Languages" by Patrick Steyaert at ftp://progftp.vub.ac.be/dissertation/1994/vub-prog-phd-94-01/ send a fix to review@ water: rr, sorry, i'm reading :) well i'm mailing their webmaster well read odool when you get the chance will do is there a way to get RI to index a paper? i think so, but i haven't gone throught the process if some of these pointers ain't in Reflection.html, please report them the pointer from reflection.html is fine, PROG's internal url's are bad 10:40am hcf: does abi know of RIODS? abi: riods is Reflection in Open Distributed Systems doh! which is? the url you gave me earlier abi: riods? riods is the Reflection in Open Distributed Systems group at http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/computing/research/mpg/reflection/ -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-14-17.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes ok updated hey ghyll * hcf/#tunes is away: (afk) water what's news? got a job doing what? heh.. software development. well sure :) mostly vanilla programming. oh in c i assume? we just got $70K to add hot-swapping reliability to postgresql, if we bother :) no. I don't touch C if I can avoid it. Python, Perl, PHP and Lisp for now. bother, man, bother! :) ok From a karma-viewpoint, we're there. But it's really for a larger project, and we're not really sure we need it. oh ok We'll see what happens during the week, as the real project is fleshed out. it was more of a "we might need hot-swapping in the db, and for oracle that costs $100K", that was *all* we said. then two days afterwards, there popped up $70K for us to add that to a free db :) oh ok 10:50am it's nice when capital is just sitting around waiting for a use :) yes. there seems to be a lot of it here, for some reason. if I only could convince them to hire me to work fulltime on tunes :) yeah hm time to shower then go out to enjoy the day ah. it's stille early over there .. well, 11am but i'm on vacation :) good. gonna spend it with your female company I guess ? * water/#tunes nods anyway bbiaf have a good time. 11:00am what kind of hot-swapping is that? what's the f in bbiaf ? flash ? Fare: it's rather fail-over, I should say. -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes 11:10am -:- G_war [pascript@h255-24-106.PD1.albacom.net] has joined #tunes heh f -> few minutes ferrari ? :) i wish wouldn't wrecked your apartment, tho. f-16 would be more desirable, of course driving from the shower in a ferrari oh right hi gwar hi anything i can do for you? like answer questions about tunes or discuss something? .. or finish up the slate tutorial .. 11:20am *whistle* hey i'm still working on that ;) what is tunes i canuse it? seriously that's why i'm doing all this research now not yet what is tunes tunes is a computing system based on the idea of a reflective high-level language that implements everything Ghyll: fail-over? abi: what is tunes? well, tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated or AOTA Fare: one db server goes down, the other takes over. yeah artificial intelligence? so you can look at the source code for, say, the entire tunes os (when completed), using the same simple language Fare: first one is repaired, is booted, and they resync. no, not AI Ghyll: ok G_war: maybe a very very very small step towards AI ok G_war: but very very very far from it more towards A than I ? :) ok I still think that AI won't be done before the Tunes ideas are implemented heh -:- G_war [pascript@h255-24-106.PD1.albacom.net] has left #tunes [] geez you're probably right. today's systems aren't exactly encouraging in that respect. (are they in any ?) oh well, if he couldn't tell the difference himself between tunes and ai, then he wasn't worth having around maybe that's the first time he comes, etc. natural selection -- when they do it for you :) no i've seen many newbies to #tunes anyway rather than listen to Fare blather about how hopeless Tunes goals are, i'm going to go out into the city and read and think about improving my ideas and understanding of Slate good idea. keep us posted. 11:30am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-46.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes hum fuffie gakuk 11:40am -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.154] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-194.tscnet.net]) -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (pah) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@208-58-192-133.s133.tnt9.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-87.s87.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp170.lvdi.net]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by king.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is devlin.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- devlin.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(127)] 12% -:- [global users on irc(479)] 46% -:- [invisible users on irc(559)] 54% -:- [ircops on irc(18)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(1038)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(32)] (avg. 32 users per server) -:- [total channels created(374)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !devlin.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 180 (175 clients) !devlin.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System, http://www.tunes.org/ || The Slate Language, http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Sun May 14 02:17:33 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:11)] [ TUNES ] [ eihrul ] [ hcf ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ smoke ] [ dirt ] [ smkl ] [ abi ] [ thomas ] [ Fare ] [ coreyr ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.228 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-14-17.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- awr [rexctgbe@204.107.76.24] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bar) -:- awr [rexctgbe@204.107.76.24] has left #tunes [] -:- ult [ult@user-38lc6b0.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes * ult/#Tunes whistles -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes * Fare/#Tunes chants -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2 -- Accept no limitations) -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z!) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-190.s190.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes clams got legs 03:20pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.141] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp170.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp21.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (L8er all) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250152.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) -:- tcn [Tom@cci-209150250041.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations) -:- tcn_ [Tom@cci-209150250041.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn_[cci-209150250041.clarityconnect.net]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-181.s181.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes * hcf/#tunes is away: (afk) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-181.s181.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-181.s181.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-74-28.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ult [ult@user-38lc68b.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-136.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey re water double-re * water/#tunes finally got the other book he ordered ya know, i think it's a bad sign when you have to deal with depression while on vacation nah why not? well, maybe its just because i'm freakish and always depressed anyway... that i would say 'nah' :P boy that's comforting * eihrul/#tunes is reading about whirl, though. Whirl? whirl? as in whirlwind? apparently, sgi has released a suite of compilers for the ia64 (with source no less) and whirl is the intermediate language ah 07:50pm any interesting features? still reading :) though it seems they represent control-flow and data-flow in same framework ok let me know when you're done wow this book is really awesome Whats it about? "Information Flow: The Logic of Distributed Systems" Nice! yeah definite material for formalizing arrow 08:00pm -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-209.s209.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey hcf hey 08:30pm hm ok i don't agree with the approach they take, but it's still good material to work from, if only for contrast value you just got the book and already you're disagreeing with it? yep :) 08:50pm but that's okay, because it means i can refine my arguments and formalisms better basically, these guys aren't picking up on some ideas i had worked through a while ago 09:00pm -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) RI can be really damned helpful most of the time 09:40pm -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp054.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES (Ping timeout for thomas[193.217.63.152]) (taking a conversation about modality from #dolphin) lar1: the biggest point of a modality is that it can't be used to state hard facts Oh? yeah it states the accessibility of future states of the world relevant to the current view of what is possible to happen or what the universe is currently capable of (hm that was a convoluted statement) Ok... Its like an object map? basically, think of a noun as your implicit way of constructing the thing that is capable of the things you think the thing can do i don't know what you mean by object map, but probably not in <> languages, nouns are explicit construction modalities that produce the thing that you talk about By object map I mean a listing of all the objects available to a system. hm yeah, but an object map is a rather lame version of a modality anyway, verbs are modalities in a more obvious way, but at the same time its not quite the same idea 10:40pm How so? well verbs in most languages are very restricted notions of modalities I still have a pretty hazy image as to what a modality is... a verb extended to a modal version of it would be so general that it would not have any kind of inflection whatsoever hmm hold on, i'm working out a definition while searching for more url's here's a good one, but it's not for the complete newbie: http://www.unm.edu/~fdehaan/evidepi.html Hmm, ok here are some examples i can think of: if you take some physical system and formalize it, and .... bleh :P hold on again obviously i haven't given this enough consideration lately here's a linguist's approach: http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/unswortl/Mood_%26_Modality.html Perhaps another time would be better? why would another time be better? I just thought it might me more convient for you, if not then nm. 10:50pm like i have time to work on this stuff between slate and arrow and work yeah right Wha? You are doing me a big favor by doing this, I don't want to impose. well here's a really over-simplified example: if i think of "picking up", then the modality of that is the set of all situations where "picking up" applies you can't determine this set beforehand or formalize it it simply means all the situations where you *would* include that situation in the set now, i can refine the modality let's say we're talking about "me picking up" we essentially concatenate or compose two modalities Me is a modality? there's what's involved in constructing what i am capable of * water/#tunes nods Can every word be a modality? and then there's the original "picking up" modality heh i believe that that's my thesis statement in <> sort of Every word is a modality is your thesis? well anyway, composing these two is like taking an intersection of the two sets of possible situations Hmm well, my thesis isn't really complete, but essentially yes Sweet "every word is a modality" is part of the thesis -:- lunatic [noggin@usr5-dialup30.mix2.Boston.cw.net] has joined #tunes hi lunatic hey what is this room about? oh damn the topic is gone abi tunes? i guess tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated or AOTA yep that's us :) The topic is there :) check out the web site ok lar: re-update it, please -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html thx hcf anyway, lunatic, check out the faq and the language and OS review pages that should give you a good enough idea hm where were we? well anyway, composing these two is like taking an intersection of the two sets of possible situations 11:00pm hm -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn146.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes well that's a bit over-simplified, but it works Hmm... ok. I will read those papers and come back with questions? the basic exercise you would need to go through is to try to characterize every semantic form in terms of a modality damn from what I read you guess seem to be a bit crazy hehe heh interesting words from a "lunatic" :) Heh hehe we're not crazy, we just tackle hard problems so did you guys even have a alpha release of tunes yet? (well, i do, the rest of these losers can go shove it ;) dude if we had an alpha release, we'd also have an IPO or something :) haha seriously we're working on the compiler and language the OS will be writtten in the language so it comes later k so is it going to be object oriented or procedural? heh both :) also functional it's based on reflection where you can dive into the implementation dynamically and change it using the high-level language itself, not some intermediate language *that's* why the tunes goal is so difficult that most people think of it as magic or just plain crazy hehe gee thx j/k well, don't kid me -:- lunatic [noggin@usr5-dialup30.mix2.Boston.cw.net] has left #tunes [] i'm spearheading most of the work here, and it wears me out bye bye anyway Ok... the basic exercise you would need to go through is to try to characterize every semantic form in terms of a modality if you treat the modality concept as a generalized verb or syntactic function you will probably do well although keep in mind the way i described those sets is not the usual way it's co-inductive in fact :) questions? 11:10pm Not ATM. i don't think that's good Nor do I. you should be thoroughly confused now, or at least asking lots of questions about the details Well I am a good deal confused. I kinda follow you. well, consider a verb without a noun or object "to throw" as an example, this word extensionally represents all situations where throwing can be applied as a label somewhere which is of course very relative to one's perspective Ok... the trick with a language like this is that you need a dictionary of sorts but it has to be very dynamic, because modalities constantly affect what things are in the world at the time How so? well, just hearing what you say to me affects what i can possibly do so when you say "you" referring to me, it changes with every utterance (in subtle ways usually) but then, <> in its most natural form doesn't worry about maintaining concepts like "you" :) Eh? How does listning to me limit what you can do? well, because if you refer to me, then you're saying something to me or about me which affects what i know about the world which in turn affects how i make decisions and how i feel about things Unless I what I say is not signal... it doesn't matter what you say even the fact that something you say is noise and what kind of noise it might be still tells me something even if you say nothing about me, it tells me something I see what you are saying btw this is basic cybernetics theory This could effect one on a sub-consience level, right (see pcp) Ok er... i don't like the term sub-conscious Oh? for very good formal reasons which i will not detail now Ok Shall I use a different term? implicit works 11:20pm Woah, ok Doesn't everything effect you in the same way? anyway, nouns are modalities when you consider things in the world as results of constructive processes which other things accomplished because their modalities allowed/guieded them to do so "same way" is drastically over-simplified Not that over-simplified so, instead of saying "a chair", i refer to "chairness" as a type of process-result yes, it is the only way it's the same is if you call everything to be of the same "universal type" which means you can't possibly formalize it without shooting yourself in the foot Does formalize == prove? no formalize means to specify a formal set of variables that encode a concept the only thing proofs can do is to state that an expression satisfies some formalism given some inference framework you can't ever prove that something satisfies the concept itself -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) Why not? * water/#tunes sighs read agt Ok. sorry, man, when you're 14 you make for a not-so-great linguist otoh most conlangers are absolute idiots Oh I know. I've also never touched this stuff before _at_all_ :) * water/#tunes sighs again I am going to be 15 this weekend! :) water: do you have a copy of odool handy? 11:30pm i think i knew more than you know about this when i was 8 Heh vub.ac.be is seriously bandwidth challenged yeah on my HD so am i dude well, i can't even connect to the ftp site :) oh yeah i guess that's a drastic bandwidth challenge :) hm i'll dcc you some of the chapters then? n'm oh? its working now ok lar: now what? * lar1/#tunes fumbles around with some of the papers in his room... Ah here it is! Marks a tick on the "I owe water one" tally. that tally's getting pretty big ;) Indeed anyhoo As well as the one for eihrul, and kc5tja *ahem* <> Perhaps one day I can remove some tallys... *sigh* Ah yes http://www.uio.no/~jarlee/grammarItam.html there's another one... just examples, really http://www.uio.no/~jarlee/modality.html what about imperative statements? :) yes i've figured those out as well the central verb phrase is the same except... that the top-level modality is an implied commitment (which relies on the implicit background) by the speaker concerning the listener's choice within the modality ...of the central verb phrase so it basically explains "you WILL" yes in normal languages, the modal aspect of a verb phrase is really just a variation on the modality of the verb, not the modality that the verb was formed from none of these url's i'm finding are nearly as good as the CSLI stuff anything relevant in the appendices of odool? 11:40pm i haven't looked hold on n'm, i'll get them anyway :) yeah get them although appB has a tilted orientation :P lar1: remaining issues? water: Mmm, I think after I do some reading things will take a more solid form in my mine, no? well the stuff i gave you won't help much pick up a good survey on linguistics Ok note i said *survey*, not just any old book Whats a survey? heh sorry i couldn't help that Eh? :/ a survey is a book that covers the largest number of concepts possible while managing to teach you something new about every entry Ok, is this somthing I wouln't find at the public libaray? good surveys in academics are worth their weight in gold you might find a good intro to several topics in linguistics at the public library if the highest level stuff you find is chomsky, don't read it!! Not a fan of chomsky? anything simpler to grok than chomsky is straight out! no, but chomsky's stuff is old already it's sort of a landmark between antiquated and modern linguistics Ah Well, I really must go hmm, whirl turned out to be pretty lame, but it has good SSA references :) sort of like the lamda-calc for cs :) but don't tell Fare i said that ;) why was it lame? 11:50pm lots of concept fusion :) seriously? :) yes how'd they manage that? hm maybe i should rtfm just to get a good laugh url? well, data-flow and control-flow are represented in the same tree but they're munged together not really unified :) oh iow it's not robust aw crap pa it could break because they didn't work it out right -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (hell no) "pa"? padre, i believe abi: pa? pa is parent alert (lar1) lol rofl if that doesn't make me feel like a babysitter, i don't know what does hcf: could you locate a paper for me? "a new algorithm for partial redundancy elimination based on ssa form", 1997, chow et al? perhaps extra bonus points for finding the author's home page :) it would rock if we got paid for this someday won't happen :) most people would quit if they were required to collaborate via IRC with no budget well, most people have lives outside of their computer :) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0516 IRC log ended Tue May 16 00:00:01 2000