IRC log started Fri May 19 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0519
-:- water [water@tnt-10-129.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hey all
<water> re corey, mark
<water> hm
-:- karltk [nobody@firewall.prosalg.no] has joined #tunes
<water> hi karl
-:- karltk is now known as Ghyll
<Ghyll> hi water
<water> oh hey ghyll
<Ghyll> I'm suddenly not as interesting anymore, eh ? :=
<Ghyll> )
<water> hehe
12:50am
<water> i just figured out some interesting things, but it will take time to process into easily-digestible form for tunesers
<Ghyll> sounds promising.
<water> yeah
<water> i've also figured out that if i get Fare to formalize the tunes specs enough, i'll be able to point out what's flawed with the design and distinguish it from arrow
<water> btw, i'm not taking shit from Fare anymore
<water> and i think i've decided to go to Stanford when i get out of the military, or at the very least apply with fervor
<Ghyll> he's pulling academic rank on you ? :)
<water> he always does
<water> implicitly of course
<Ghyll> isn't attending uni in the us extremely expensive ? 
<water> well i'm probably looking at $100k over 5 years
<water> however i think i'll be able to swing some scholarship money
<water> (given that my performance in my junior year at college doesn't cloud their view of me)
<Ghyll> just have some high official write you a recommendation letter, and they'll overlook that easily (isn't that how it works ?)
<water> i believe so, but i want to be sure of it
01:00am
<water> i *did* get a full ride promised from MIT when i left high school, so there must be something i'm worth to people
<water> it was unfortunate that i could not accept
<Ghyll> why not ?
<water> legal/financial issues
<water> i had a trust fund, but it didn't apply to private education
<water> so i had the money (technically), but it wasn't applicable in practice
<Ghyll> you're an orphan ?
<water> heh
<water> i wish
<water> no, my parents are alive and poor, it's my grandparents that i never met who stuck me with that
<Ghyll> aha. ok. I won't ask more.
01:10am
<water> well, i tested out of a little over 2 years worth of classes, so my first year was my junior year and my last
<Ghyll> this was at which college/uni ? 
<water> texas a&m
01:20am
<Ghyll> a&m ? accounting and management ? :)
<water> heh
<water> agriculture and mechanics
<water> (engineering mostly)
<Ghyll> what did you study/dabble in there, then ? 
<water> well i was officially declared an aerospace/mech engineering double major
<water> however, i spent most of my time doing cs and math research on my own
<water> i pretty much planned on dropping out from day one
<Ghyll> heh.
<Ghyll> now you're in SF, right ? 
<water> i ran a computer lab for a while, tutoring engineering students on Maple and math in general and acting for the sysadmin
<water> no, seattle
<Ghyll> ah. next-door neighbour to mr. gates :)
<water> :P
<Ghyll> military service isn't compulsory over there, so why did you bother ? (I haven't asked this before, have I ?)
<water> no you haven't asked
<water> any regular job would have gotten me spotted as too bright a fellow from day zero
<water> which would have caused me some problems i would not like to deal with
<water> especially as i like devoting my higher-order thoughts to my more useful ideas
<Ghyll> I didn't think being bright was a genuine problem over there..
<water> well it's the internet/VC craze
<Ghyll> how so ? 
<water> they would categorize me as a programmer, anyway
01:30am
<Ghyll> isn't programming what you do now as well ?
<water> hehe
<water> no i do very little actual programming
<Ghyll> you sit bitching on the actual programmers ? 
<water> heh
<water> no the stuff i work on requires thought
<water> i take care of semantics issues and make sure what gets programmed does what Fare or i or whoever says it should do
<water> i also write toy code to test ideas quite often and throw all of it out when i'm done with it
<Ghyll> you work with Fare ? 
<water> not quite
<Ghyll> or do you now refer to tunes again ? 
<water> i work with what he has written
<Ghyll> ah. ok.
<water> working *with* someone implies that they do work as well
<water> it's funny... when i was introducing tunes to a programmer irl recently, one of their remarks about the tunes docs was that the writer must have been on drugs when he wrote it... and the fellow actually understood the language ideas
<Ghyll> well, I personally don't quite connect to the documentation at tunes.org
<Ghyll> I'm probably too pragmatic these days. 
01:40am
<water> the documentation is terrible
<water> anyone with any sense and some academic knowledge of the sources Fare is using would know how badly he's munged the explanations of the ideas
<water> heh i don't even care any more if he hears
<water> the fact that he protects his precious documentation with cvs is completely laughable
<water> as though muting his words would be some kind of vandalism
<Ghyll> do I sense a touch of hostility here ? 
<water> no just frustration
<water> because my goals are relatively similar and he has been making a mockery of them for the last 6 years
<water> the fact that the site has 4 mirrors doesn't help much
<Ghyll> I've obviously missed out on something major here.. 
<water> eh?
<water> like what?
<Ghyll> let's just say that I've failed to notice any of this before.
<water> have you been on the mailing list?
<Ghyll> no. 
<Ghyll> I get enough mail as it is.
<water> oh ok
<water> heh the tunes mlist is not often busy
<water> anyway
01:50am
<Ghyll> perhaps I should add it, then.
<water> it's not likely you would get much out of it
<water> not until there's consensus on what the tunes language should be
02:00am
* cwr/#tunes is away: watching the shuttle go up in 50mins
<Ghyll> is there a webcast of that ? 
02:30am
-:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Read error to Ghyll[firewall.prosalg.no]: Connection reset by peer)
<Kyle_L> water?
03:00am
-:- Ghyll [nobody@firewall.prosalg.no] has joined #tunes
<Kyle_L> does anyone here find self, and its lack of classes, messy?
04:20am
<smkl> i wouldn't say prototype based OO is messy
<Kyle_L> prototype?
<Kyle_L> Are you saying SELFs goal is to be a prototyping environment? 
<smkl> no
<smkl> i'm saying self is prototype based (classless) OO language
<Kyle_L> SELF says to have no distinction, yet uses Traits and Mirrors to achieve what was lost when classes were removed.
<Kyle_L> I see features, but no benefits.
<smkl> well, it just makes the language simplier
<Kyle_L> simpler to make the language, or simpler to use?
<smkl> to make or learn
04:40am
<Kyle_L> I can see that. 
<Kyle_L> I would disagree on simpler to use.
<Kyle_L> The distinction between the definition/model of a thing and the thing itself adds clarity to the design of a program 
<Ghyll> it's not like you can't simulate a class-based language if you really want it.. 
<Kyle_L> True.
<Kyle_L> And you see them do that with Mirrors and Traits.
<Kyle_L> Simulating is a hack.  :)
<Kyle_L> I can simulat OO in C if I wanted.
<Kyle_L> It is another level of automatic checking.
<Ghyll> to a certain extent. you wouldn't have encapsulation.
<Ghyll> although, I'm not really sure I like hard encapsulation..
<Kyle_L> MMMMmmmmm.  Explain, this sounds good.
<Ghyll> in c++, as you know, you have hard encapsulation, there's no general way to read 'foo' in class Foo { int foo; }; 
<Ghyll> (or rather, there's no general way to reach it in a little more involved example)
<Ghyll> (in this case, you could just cast to an int)
<Ghyll> it would be much better if you could get at foo by using a special syntax. however, that would mean that c++ programmers would have to grow up.
<Kyle_L> sounds like reflection, not encapsulation
<Ghyll> such as Foo.@foo or whatever nastyness Bjarne could concoct.
<Ghyll> not really. reflection is about a program being able to inspect itself.
<Ghyll> this is just about a way to reach encapsulated data members without nasty pointer hacks
<Ghyll> at compile time.
04:50am
<Kyle_L> I thought you meant encapsulation like in encapsulate/inherit
<smkl> if you need to reach them, you should just unencapsulate them
<Ghyll> It applies there, too. I was just arguing that you can't get real OO in C, but you can think OO. 
<Ghyll> smkl: it's not always what one wants. some times you'd like to inherit access. this is especially painful in C++ with 'friend'
<Kyle_L> Ghyll: I do not think SELF has an advantage over SmallTalk wrt encapsulation.
<Kyle_L> It is only fair to compare reall OO lang.  Poor C++ is at an extream disadvantage.
<Ghyll> Kyle_L: agreed. 
<Ghyll> Kyle_L: but self is more of an experimentation than anything else. and it's cute.
<Kyle_L> Come to think of it I do not know how encapsulation is relevent to a comparision between a prototype and class based OO.
05:00am
<Ghyll> Kyle_L> I can simulat OO in C if I wanted. <- that's where encapsulation came in.
<Kyle_L> Oh.  
<Kyle_L> :)
<Kyle_L> Is there a formal name for C++ like OO and Smalltalk OO wrt encapsulation?
<Ghyll> probably, but I can't remember any on the top of my head.
<Kyle_L> thanks both.
-:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [05:07am]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net]
05:10am
<water> kyle: you are really fscking amazing
<water> i don't think i've ever heard of someone ask about self and think of its features as disadvantages the first time around
<Kyle_L> :)
<water> you must have this really twisted perspective of cs
<Kyle_L> Some people have told me that.
<water> like seeing everything upside down or something screwed up like that
<Kyle_L> :)
<water> where the hell did you learn cs from originally?
<Kyle_L> Myself in high school, then some formal university
<water> amazing
05:30am
<Kyle_L> Please don't blam the university for my errors.
<water> why not?
<Kyle_L> I think I was like this when I got there.  
<water> university cs students often come here with screwed up perspectives
<water> oh well, this is a pointless pursuit
<Kyle_L> They all don't like SELF?
<Kyle_L> Yes.
<water> bbiaf
<Kyle_L> OK, versioning.  I looked at a paper I read.  It only refers to other papers.
<water> LOL
<Kyle_L> There is historic, logical, cooperative and compositive versioning.
<water> you actually found a paper on versioning??
* water/#tunes shakes his head
<Kyle_L> Yes!, and it was not hidden behind the proprietary doors!
<water> get a life
<water> there are so many other more interesting concepts than versioning
<water> unless of course you want to continue to mis-use the term
<Kyle_L> Versioning appears to be change, usually associated with some constant.
<water> gah! why am i sitting here wasting my thoughts on this?
<Kyle_L> You mentioned that versioning only happens wrt an interface.
-:- water [water@tnt-10-129.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
<Kyle_L> I guess that was a good mood.
05:40am
<Ghyll> he's been slighly touchy today :)
05:50am
-:- smoke [smoke@15dyn206.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[firewall.prosalg.no])
-:- Ghyll [nobody@firewall.prosalg.no] has joined #tunes
-:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net
-:- smoke [smoke@15dyn206.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bah)
* cwr/#tunes is back
-:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.78] has joined #tunes
<Kyle_L> re
<Fare> err
09:10am
<Kyle_L> anyone: I was talking to water, he start to help me understand migration.
<Kyle_L> It is the ability to maintain description of things across platforms.
<Kyle_L> It is the use of views to focus on particular aspects of a thing  
<Kyle_L> It is the realization that the views may never be conplete; so migration must support the ability to handle new views.
<Kyle_L> Do I have it right?
09:20am
<Fare> more or less
<Kyle_L> do you say that to be passive?  
<Fare> yours are valid point of views on migration
<Kyle_L> what less?
<Kyle_L> Are thier others?
<Fare> other points of view: migration is about being able to reify programs and reabsorb them in different hardware|software contexts
<Fare> water: thanks for your catrewrite links
-:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Read error to _out[200.201.30.78]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.78] has joined #tunes
<Kyle_L> So reification is an elaboration on the last half of my last point.
<Kyle_L> ?
<Fare> you may see it like that
<Fare> did you read http://tunes.org/Migration/ ?
<Kyle_L> Yes.
<Fare> I know the page is obsolete and all that;
<Fare> if some parts aren't clear, that's a bug that should be fixed
09:30am
<Fare> (and at least reported)
<Kyle_L> yes.  A person, me, can read through Migration and only see "hardware independence using meta objects".
<Fare> there's more to it than that. It's about _dynamic_ hardware independence
<Fare> not just static one
<thomas> the difference being?
<Fare> in one case, you move source code, and recompile on each target, but once the program is launched, it cannot move anymore
-:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Fare> in the other, you move running code, including its dynamic internal state and external connections, while it is running
<Kyle_L> dynamic can still be done without knowledge of my third point, or reification.  (correct me if I am wrong)
<Fare> you can't dynamically move running code w/o reification
<Kyle_L> Example?
<Fare> write a small program with one or more running threads; run it on your favorite 21-bit computer; how do you move it to your brand new 64-bit computer?
<Fare> if you want to move w/o reification, all you can do is move whole-programs on same architectures.
<Fare> not small subprograms accross architectures
<Kyle_L> I could have a compiler that takes a hardware description and compiles pieces of code.  The system can have a bit-level description of interprocess communication.
09:40am
<Kyle_L> What is being reified?
<Kyle_L> The new computer architecture?
<Fare> yes
<Kyle_L> :)
<Fare> and that's _much_ more expensive than reifying high-level stuff
<Kyle_L> I can see that.
<Fare> plus when you migrate back, you have a hardware emulator of a hardware emulator of yourself, instead of running the program directly
<Fare> constant factors _matter_
<Kyle_L> yes.
<Fare> (especially very large constant factors)
<Kyle_L> oh yes!
-:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.143] has joined #tunes
<thomas> But, when programs/things are always implemented in source ( not binary ), why not stick to moving source if that is simpler?
<Fare> running state
<Kyle_L> I thought reification was just the explicitness of information, not also the addition of new information.
<Fare> if you move your e-commerce application from your old server to your new one, I bet ou don't want to lose all the existing state of your system
<thomas> then, map state to first order before atempting to move it.
<Fare> same for your ongoing quake24 game, when you upgrade your computer from dual K9 to quad Alpha 21464.
<thomas> ( to migrate a relational database, express it in SQL, and evaluate it when it reaches its destination )
<Fare> Or when you dock away your VeryStrongARM PDA from your FCPU base station
<Fare> "express it in SQL" is precisely what the system ought to be doing transparently and efficiently
<thomas> it does!
<Fare> if your program is a search tree, or a physical simulation, you sure do not want it to do a SQL query at every computation step
<thomas> ( more or less, anyway :)
<Fare> you want it to save stuff only when necessary, plus periodically, for safety against power failure.
<thomas> No, you would probably use lisp instead of SQL
<thomas> Could be done!
<Fare> anyway. You don't want to do explicit marshalling, and you don't want to do it at every step
<Fare> you want it to be done implicitly, and on demand
<thomas> "first order" is the trick when it comes to moving things in and out of contexts
<Fare> sure, sure. Zeroth order, actually.
09:50am
<Fare> reifying is making code into data -- order zero.
<thomas> Zeroth? Isn't '24' a first order integer?
<Fare> no, it's order 0
<Fare> fun x -> x + 1 ;; is a first-order function on integers
<thomas> how about in php you can write an array as Array( a, b, c ). I thought that was "first order"?
<Fare> fun f -> fun [] -> [] | h::t -> (f h)::(map f t) ;; is a second order function on integers
<Fare> Array is a first-order function, if you like
<Fare> but the resulting array is order-zero
<Fare> it's a basic data type, if you prefer
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-102.s102.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<thomas> ok, so if I said '( whatever )' then that particular saying is first order while the effect of the saying is zeroth order?
<thomas> ( bad sentence :)
<Kyle_L> With reflection, then, everything is 0th or 1st order, depending on how you use it?
<Fare> rather, everything can be reified into 0th order data
<Kyle_L> I was thinking that.
<thomas> Ok, then what I mean, is to move things in their form prior to reification, I think
<Fare> what's tricky however is to draw boundaries between object/modules so that you know what is reified, and what isn't
<thomas> is reification slightly related to the word 'absorbation'?
<Fare> (there are also performance issues, but that's a matter of reification-aware compilers and optimizations)
<Fare> absorption is the opposite of reification
<thomas> ok!
<Fare> it takes a 0th order object representation and rebuilds the object from it
<thomas> please explain
<Kyle_L> I would imagine the reification of things can be incomplete. 
<Fare> so that "migration = reication;communication;absorption"
<thomas> YES!
<Kyle_L> YES! (too)
<Fare> of course, with proper static knowledge, this equation can be optimized by merging those three conceptual steps
<Kyle_L> I should write this down so that all newbies can see.
-:- _out [magsilva@200.201.30.143] has left #tunes []
<thomas> absorbation/reification are like parse/unparse
<Fare> Kyle_L: I should write this on Migration/index.html
10:00am
<Fare> thomas: yes
<Fare> difficulty: reification must draw the boundaries of objects; absorption must connect the object to an external context
<thomas> that's what references are for
<Fare> not as simple;
<Fare> at least, there must be programming-language support for that
<Kyle_L> Have you seen good solutions?  I looked at SELF, they have a primitive (very) migration mechanism based on logging changes I beleive.
10:10am
<hcf> if any one cares: astro linux, http://bima.astro.umd.edu/nemo/linuxastro/talk/
<Kyle_L> Thanks Fare for another enlightening talk.
-:- water [water@tnt-9-88.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<Fare> any FORTH-programmed telescope in it?
10:20am
<water> catrewrite links?
<hcf> abi: categorical rewriting?
<abi> categorical rewriting is at http://www.mcs.le.ac.uk/~nghani/catrew.html
<water> oh yeah
<water> re all, btw
<Fare> err, lo!
<water> hey
<water> time for a comprehensive clarification on migration docs, wouldn't you say? :)
<Kyle_L> :)
<water> btw i have this paper on how the programming language involved affects *what* can be reified
<Fare> water: url?
<water> hm i'll look
10:30am
<water> btw, you would probably find it helpful to crawl through RI using keyword searches and citation and relevance relations they provide
10:40am
<water> hm there's also "reification without evaluation" from bawden, but i can't locate the paper in question atm
<hcf> water: its here: http://achilles.bu.edu/bawden/
<water> well yeah i know where bawden's at... we discussed that yesterday
<water> but the paper i originally mentioned isn't there
<hcf> whats the oribinally mentioned paper?
<water> Fare: just a suggestion, perhaps you should classify the different uses and levels where partial evaluation is interesting for tunes systems
<water> it was a paper discussing how reified concepts are affected by the expressiveness and nature of the programming language used
10:50am
<water> i think i found it, one sec
<water> "A Reflective System is as Extensible as its Internal Representations: An Iluustration" by John Wiseman Simmons II and Daniel P. Friedman
<water> the url eludes me
<water> not quite what i remembered it as being, but still related
<Fare> ok
<water> i could dcc the paper to you
<Fare> mail it, rather
<water> k
11:00am
-:- hotboy [asdsddfk@02-moul-04e.dial.optilinkcomm.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff hotboy: #TUNES (Leaving)
<hcf> abi: rseir is "a Reflective System is as Extensible as its Internal Representations: an iluustration" at http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/did/59073 and ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/scheme-repository/doc/pubs/iucstr366.ps.gz
<water> wow thx
<water> hm i did a nearly direct search for it and didn't turn that up
<water> oh well
* water/#tunes follows RI links, trolling for papers
<water> ooh
<hcf> i got it by searching for John Wiseman Simmons
<water> well there you go
<water> hm lots of p/e/ papers (excellent ones) linked to from rseir
<water> er... p/e even
11:10am
-:- HenZo [henzo@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<water> hey henzo
<HenZo> sup water
<water> how's tril?
<HenZo> Just fine
<water> so why haven't we seen him lately? :)
<HenZo> Hasn't he been around here?
<water> hell, no
<HenZo> hehe
<HenZo> I'll encourage him to pay a visit
<water> i've got a web designer who volunteered to work on the site, btw
<water> he works at aa.net ... lead sysadmin
<HenZo> really...
<water> yes i decribed the tunes technical goals and he liked it right off the bat
<HenZo> I'll run that by Tril
<HenZo> Cool
<water> although he thinks that Fare's on drugs :)
<water> please do
-:- redfive [redfive@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<water> also, i'd like to know the status of the web db
<water> hi, red5
<redfive> hi
<HenZo> Haha
11:40am
<water> hm another bespin fellow
<HenZo> The web db isn't exactly fully working/done
<water> anyway, i've got slate nearly final in specs
<HenZo> oh cool
<water> and eihrul's working out a compiler
<HenZo> Nice
<water> (dynamic, optimizing etc)
<water> so we just might want to have a logo soon ;)
<Fare> self-synthetized drugs
<HenZo> Heh, hi Fare
<water> Fare: no doubt
<Fare> gakuk
<water> right
<water> so anyway, if tril would contact me or at least show up on irc sometime to discuss the status, i'll try to get my friend online at the same time so ppl can hash things out
<Fare> mailto:dem@tunes.org
<water> usually when i do that, i get nothing in response
<Fare> ytalk dem when logged in
<Fare> phone him
<HenZo> Sure thing, I'll let him know today.
<water> it's happened so many times that i just gave up
<Fare> When I want to contact him, I manage
<water> thx
<water> that's nice Fare
<HenZo> Tril is hard to get a response from, but I can do it for you.
<HenZo> No worries.
<water> k
<HenZo> A'ight well I got class now, so I'll talk to you later. I'll get ahold of Tril.
<HenZo> Hasta.
<water> cya
-:- SignOff HenZo: #TUNES (Tunes? What's that?)
<redfive> I'll go with him
-:- redfive [redfive@bespin.dhs.org] has left #tunes []
<cwr> shuttle launch was awesome this morning, nice orange dawn on the smoke trail.
<water> i really miss that
<water> there was a year when i lived in orlando FL when i went to see the shuttle launches every time
<cwr> i havent gone in a while, growing up here its like an everyday occurance it seems
<cwr> grr all the tourists, "is this a good place to watch?"
<water> yeah that's what ppl told me when i was there
11:50am
<water> it never got old for me, but then i was into aerospace engineering until i dropped out
<water> (i still am, really)
<cwr> every dork in florida wants to work at nasa at one time
<cwr> its just it seems they go up every other day
<cwr> :)
12:00pm
<Fare> cwr: w?
12:10pm
<water> Fare: space shuttle launches
* water/#tunes starts reading his papers collected on architectural and protocol reflection
-:- morton [morton@98AFB88D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hi morton
<morton> hi water
<water> is there anything you want to talk about?
<water> (pretty quiet right now, otherwise)
<morton> nah
<water> ok, i can answer questions for ya anyway
<morton> what is the meaning of life?
<water> heh
<morton> really? "heh"?
<water> some answers require greater access privileges than others ;)
12:20pm
<morton> wow, "heh" ..... never would've imagined
<morton> :-)
<cwr> morton: 42
<water> no, that's the answer to life, the universe, and everything
<morton> i hate that book
<cwr> i knew someone would call me on that
<cwr> morton: between you and me, ive never read it.
<cwr> rather them
12:30pm
* smoke/#tunes is halfway reading it.
<morton> i read a few chapters then switched on the cartoons for preschoolers on TV because i wanted to be entertained by something comparatively serious
<water> geez
12:40pm
<smkl> hey, it has at least one funny spot!
-:- iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hey storm
<iStormy> hi
12:50pm
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn206.delft.casema.net])
<morton> that's a fine nick you've got there, iStormy
<morton> :-]
-:- smoke [smoke@15dyn206.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp101.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<iStormy> yes, it is  (c:
<water> hey eih
01:00pm
<morton> wtf are AVL trees?
<water> uh what context?
<morton> /* Abstract: Functions used by the AVL tree functions. */
<water> sounds like the name of a library
<smkl> AVL trees are just some kind of balanced trees i think
<water> oh
<hcf> http://hissa.nist.gov/dads/HTML/avltree.html
<smkl> http://hissa.nist.gov/dads/terms.html -- that page is nice
* water/#tunes bookmarks
<morton> is hcf a web address bot or something?
<water> lol
<water> no, abi is
<water> abi: you?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn
<cwr> morton: heh.
<hcf> water: i'm pretty sure i informed u of dads b4
<water> yeah but it got lost in the shuffle
<morton> abi: bot?
<abi> morton: wish i knew
01:10pm
<morton> how would i find out who set an answer on abi?
<water> scan the logs
<water> or ask hcf perhaps if it's worth that much to you
<water> i'd bet i could tell you who set most of the entries, though
<cwr> me!
<water> bah! :)
* morton/#tunes slips abi a $10
<hcf> morton: as u can see abi's help system sucks
01:20pm
* morton/#tunes says "live up to your dictionary entry"
<morton> err definition
* water/#tunes spanks abi
<abi> feels good, water
<morton> hcf: there's a bot in #linuxwarez on EFnet (used to be, at least) that's pretty good
<water> heh
<water> (thx hcf)
<cwr> amok time.
<morton> yeah amok
<morton> you should rip that script
-:- HenZo [henzo@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<HenZo> Hey hcf, you there?
<hcf> yeah
<cwr> morton: we already have water to screw with newbie's heads.
<water> :P
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Bye)
<morton> it's hilarious when people argue with the bot
<water> what's the bot's protocol?
<hcf> protocol?
<water> maybe i should just look at the script
<water> yes, you know, "protocol".... how it converses and what it responds to
<cwr> infobots are perl right?
<water> usually
<hcf> the infobot guide basically tells u
<cwr> i mean the infobot
<water> oh so it's just another infobot
<hcf> yeah
<hcf> w/ tweaks by me
<water> oh wait
<water> i was talking about amok, not abi
<cwr> amok is i dunno
<water> i know how abi works
<cwr> and they probably wont answer you
<hcf> try version'ing amok
<water> mm
01:30pm
<water> AmokWare! It's NOT by MicroSoft!
<water> not informative
<smkl> it's probably some eliza bot
<morton> haha water you went on efnet?
<water> i'm already there
-:- ult [ult@user-37kbaoi.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes
<water> (there's a few seattle channels and #compsci)
-:- SignOff HenZo: #TUNES (Tunes? What's that?)
<morton> you ask it things like so, in a msg: ?? topic
<water> oh
<morton> -Amok- linux == Choice of a GNU generation, OS of the Gods!  Free.  Created by ME, Linus Torvalds! :)  See also: debian, redhat, slackware, suse, linuxinfo, linapps.
<water> hm it responds in my system window instead of with a message
<ult> morton you linuxwarez lamer.
<cwr> morton: yeah.
<morton> i didn't know linus torvalds frequented #linuxwarez
<ult> Torvalds does not IRC. Ever.
<smkl> linus gets his warez from #linuxwarez !
<water> ok quit pestering the AOLer ;)
<cwr> pestering?
<morton> not too shabby yerself, water
<morton> :-)
<water> pester: To harass with petty annoyances; bother. See Synonyms at harass.
<cwr> water: heh.
<cwr> ok
<water> the only reason i use windows is because my modem won't play with linux or beos
* cwr/#tunes is gone for two days in Vero Beach with no limited net access.
* cwr/#tunes is back
<cwr> ack
* cwr/#tunes is back
* cwr/#tunes is away: stupid thing.
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving)
<morton> water: excuses
<water> hm quite a bit of noise today
<water> is anyone interested in talking about Tunes?
01:40pm
<hcf> nah
<water> :P
<water> hcf: what was the name of that fellow who was talking about Heidegger a month or two ago?
<smkl> bill huey
<water> what's his nick?
<water> BillH?
<smkl> yes
<water> which irc net is he on?
<smkl> efnet
<water> k
<smkl> he's only on secret channels, but one of the channels he's in is #E
01:50pm
<hcf> checking...
<hcf> billh_
<water> i'm already talking to him
<hcf> k, n/m
<water> he's still an elitist
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> quite a paradox considering he reads philosophy which contradicts that morality
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-225.s225.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<morton> u think you're better, judging people on their isps?
<water> geez
<water> no
<morton> "quite a paradox". just call him a hypocrite
<water> i have done so before
02:00pm
<morton> if you try to stop yourself from being an elitist, you'll adopt a condescending attitude
<morton> in your effort to level everyone's status in your eyes
-:- SignOff morton: #TUNES (Leaving)
02:10pm
-:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<hcf> hohum
<water> humho
<water> where's eihrul?
<eihrul> here, now
<water> how are we doing, slate-wise?
<eihrul> welp, i've decided that a control flow graph is necessary, and i've moved on from there, and am working on PRE right now
<water> pre?
02:40pm
<eihrul> partial redundancy elimination
<eihrul> very important :)
<water> oh yes
<eihrul> after that, i really need to start working on memory/scalar optimizations
<water> ok
<eihrul> (as they will be oh-so-important in slate)
<water> hm the conversation with billH went well
<water> he's still working on his recompiler
<eihrul> billH?
<eihrul> tanksley?
<water> rough estimate for the code-generation and optimization stuff to get complete?
<water> no the guy who was on #tunes about two months ago
<water> talking about Heidegger and learning about common lisp
<eihrul> a few months
<water> oh wow
<water> well, i'm looking at having the core semantics decided upon by the end of the month
<eihrul> few >= 1
<water> oh ok
<water> i was thinking 4-5 there
<eihrul> 4-5 is too much
<eihrul> i'll be in uni by then :)
<water> heh
<eihrul> so i definitely want to get something done before summer
<water> and all this should be portable to slate itself, yes?
<eihrul> er rather before its over
<water> sure
<eihrul> well, having slate semantics decided upon will make it easier to ensure that
<water> ok
<eihrul> because i need to make sure what i do code is slate-like enough that porting is just a brain-dead translation :)
<water> i don't think designing the meta-object system is going to happen overnight, though
<water> well at the very least anything you can express in lisp will be expressible in slate
<water> well s/lisp/lisp or clos/
<eihrul> sure, but i'd like to keep it simple though...
<eihrul> because anything that in lisp is taken for granted... must be then available in slate to take for granted :)
<water> hm
<water> yes i see
<eihrul> er well, not necessarily actually
<eihrul> depends upon how easy i want the translation to go :)
<water> ok
<water> hm one other thing...
<water> where does concurrency fit into the compiler right now? not at all, i'm hoping
<eihrul> you're correct... i haven't addressed that yet
<water> ok
<water> keep in mind everything in the meta-object system will also be in the compiler or wind up there dynamically
<water> and that's some heavy poop to deal with, i'm discovering
<water> i can't say for sure when all the meta-objects will be specified in slate, but i'm sure that i can specify what's needed by the june 1 pseudo-deadline
02:50pm
<water> let's see...
<water> is there anything else i can cover for you?
<water> hm he went afk it seems
<eihrul> concentrating on PRE right now :)
<water> oh ok
<water> in that case i'll work on my stuff and publish it when i can
<water> i really must go bother elric
<water> to all: does anyone have questions i can help with before i go?
<water> hm i suppose not
<water> damn it, i just realized that Tril might show up and likely i won't be back on tonight
<water> i'll just mail him when i get the chance i guess
<water> anyway, bbl tonight
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!)
03:00pm
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn206.delft.casema.net])
-:- smoke [smoke@15dyn206.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
<Fare> smoke?
-:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving)
<smoke> yes
<smoke> ?
<smkl> blah, somebody harrashed #lambda
<Fare> harrashed?
<Fare> smoke: did you find REPLACE ?
<smoke> fare: exactly what i need! thanks :)
<smkl> "harassed"
<Fare> when looking for list, array or string stuff, always think about the sequence dictionary
04:00pm
<smoke> fare: hm, how do you mean?
-:- SignOff cwr: #TUNES (Ping timeout for cwr[net255ip95.parklink.com])
-:- cwr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes
04:10pm
* smoke/#tunes was at a conference on neural networks today and got scared by seeing everyone use Matlab as the base tool for doing research with and creating tools for
<smoke> not only is the matlab language the worst i've seen in my entire life, it's also proprietrary -- and universities don't seem to mind at all
<Fare> smoke: matlab, worst language? You haven't seen Maple...
<smoke> oh well ok
* Fare/#Tunes is away 3053
05:10pm
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (zzz)
-:- SignOff mark4: #TUNES ([x]chat)
-:- mark4 [mark4@purplecoder.com] has joined #tunes
-:- mark4 is now known as I440r
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-225.s225.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com])
-:- pac1 [pac1@ip235.bedford9.ma.pub-ip.psi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- pac1 [pac1@ip235.bedford9.ma.pub-ip.psi.net] has left #tunes []
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-58.s58.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- ult [ult@user-37kba9u.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- Downix [down@d-ma-boston-56.ici.net] has joined #tunes
<Downix> hello all
08:20pm
-:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-73-121.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
<ult> nite
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving)
10:40pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-182.s182.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-ma-boston-56.ici.net])
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Good <night|morning>)
-:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr])
-:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [11:17pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net]
-:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0520
IRC log ended Sat May 20 00:00:01 2000