IRC log started Thu May 25 00:00:03 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0525 -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from lewis.openprojects.net [12:45am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net lewis.openprojects.net -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- _Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes -:- FufieAFK [stig@tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- dirt [cogito@riga13.mohawk.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn53.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from forward.openprojects.net [01:08am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- _Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes -:- FufieAFK [stig@tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- dirt [cogito@riga13.mohawk.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn53.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: fastlane.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [01:29am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fastlane.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fastlane.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-193.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes re 01:40am -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-117.s117.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hohum :P * hcf/#tunes ponders finding a stronger word than hohum sounds like a good project ;) * hcf/#tunes continues his routine of yawning dully hcf: noise! hcf: it's not like i haven't been considering the issues all this afternoon and evening 02:30am i know -:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (Ping timeout for coreyr[net255ip95.parklink.com]) -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes 02:40am my hohum'ing was more self-referential than was expressed heh so.... (taking discussion from #{} to here about tunes web design recommendations) basically, entirely db-based ok with a meta-markup language for automatic management of internal url's i goto www.tunes.org what do i see? like /link Lisp would always lead you to lisp's review entry well ;) everything would be generated from a mutable database like the navbar or the news entries also review and glossary entries, of course of course there should also be a bibliography database which any of the others can utilize, but this is a bit extraneous per se at first, though, the db page would just be like the review pages er... glos? s/db/bibliography/ oh huh? k oh anyway, everything else would just be a layer over that gimme a enumerated list of must-have features * coreyr/#tunes is writing it down. just convert every list of things on tunes to a db and generate html which is suitable for presentation 02:50am include a simple way for cross-referencing the db entries and figure out a script for periodicaly checking the valididty of non-local urls of course the navigation system should be extensible as well but that's roughly all that's needed, really i suppose that editing should be forms-based * water/#tunes is basically done with the rant if it were a general-purpose framework that could be used for slate and arrow, then it would rock :) coreyr: u gonna make this? this meaning...? :) btw i was with wlric tonight, but he was very much tired from work onezerosix.net/redesign.html ok he seems to be working to 7pm each night hm do you have examples of each of these must-haves in use else where on the web? or more general examples? zope? for which number? anything that looks roughly like existing tunes pages but is more systematized would be good 1 possible view could look exactly like what we have now except w/ a change-view button ;) corey: please remove the midi from 106.net, it's really annoying :) ok heh hm 03:00am -:- nate37 [nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes yeah "change view" would be nice, but not necessary per se as long as editing is possiible through the wroser s/wroser/browser/ what is wrong with pcp? nothing, but the db aspect is more helpful than the "visual sugar" yeah what has lar1 done? look at his directory on tunes.org * coreyr/#tunes glances just faq db's basically water: fmib, whats editing have to w/ views? php3 of course hcf: well what views would you suggest? hcf: i was only thinking of view/edit "views" hmm water: can you list the reasons you dislike the current site just so i can write them down per-entry view of glos, rev, etc obviously searching should users be able to collaborate on code too? : :) hmm nevermind that would be a nightmare 03:10am >>> coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] requested PING 129812510 from #tunes -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (Ping timeout for dirt[riga13.mohawk.net]) abi: beep water i beeped water 03:20am -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES (Read error to thomas[193.217.63.152]: EOF from client) -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES ([BX] Homer Simpson uses BitchX. DOH! DOH! DOH!) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-117.s117.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- SignOff FufieAFK: #TUNES (Ping timeout for FufieAFK[tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no]) -:- FufieAFK [stig@tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: clarke.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:54am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [clarke.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- water [water@tnt-9-193.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes * Kyle_L/#Tunes looks over slate tutorial * Kyle_L/#Tunes makes some tea * Kyle_L/#Tunes 's back almost-afternoon kyle. 08:50am -:- supreet [supreet@203.197.204.249] has joined #tunes hi -:- supreet [supreet@203.197.204.249] has left #tunes [] 09:30am -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-193.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-10-117.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-38.s38.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes water: onezerosix.net/redesign.html k i like to have things written down when ideas require other people. :) yeah that's good hm faults basically a complete lack of the latter must-haves :) or do you want a critique of the content, too? ;) i was thinking more of a justification of redesign hm reasons ok.... everything and it's sister's dog's uncle is dis-organized not being able to search review or provide views is bad i mean, review is most of the reason people show up to tunes.org views? as in, author-signed opinions? NO! like in vistas hm n/m. * coreyr/#tunes never finds the words to explain what he means. -:- FufieAFK is now known as Fufie just being able to search for languages according to keywords would work water: netscape has a find function you could search for keywords.. like homo-iconic abi: views? wish i knew, fare abi: vistas? Fufie: your kidding right? fare: no idea Fare: one way of looking at something is a view coreyr: is redesign of the tunes site the most important thingie now? and if tunes members could edit the entries online, (or at least if I could) then the db would be fluid to update without requiring people to take extra care in not screwing up the html fufie: not about tunes, it's about arrow and slate water: see, reasons. water: you want to do what? redesign the arrow and slate pages? and if corey can't do it, i'll oay for someone to get it done s/oay/pay/ 11:10am whatever * water/#tunes goes and reads a bit * Fufie/#tunes mumbles abi: BRL is Beautiful Report Language, yet another Scheme-based database HTTP-access language Fare: url? abi: no, BRL is Beautiful Report Language, yet another Scheme-based database HTTP-access language at http://brl.sourceforge.net/ okay, Fare. yet another web-design tool that tunes people would never use water: why? heh no really because tunes people don't care enough, that's why * coreyr/#tunes is writing hm (that was a challenge, btw) heh water: define view just simple search queries water: indeed; it's not about using it, but about seeing what concepts it proposes to provide interface between HTML, DB, Scheme, etc not as interesting as pliant, tho it doesn't matter how interesting it is pragmatic. although if it were written in squeak, Fare would never have noticed ;) * water/#tunes updates the redesign.html view hm searching (or even *indexing*) the glossary would be a tremendous help to people asking questions if based on a db engine, these pages could grow almost without bound without becoming imposing.... -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-19-41.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes for instance you could look at the latest-updates to a db to see what's new or updated (searching by entry/mod date) but that's an extra thing as far as i'm concerned 11:20am what about having definition nodes that concentrate on a simple singular concept with theme nodes that discuss a more complex topic with links to the def nodes? hm a master toc node that links everything is there anything wrong with that? * coreyr/#tunes is getting ahead of himself again nothing wrong with it, per se, but it's not a "must-have" that with a search, a system that weeds out dead links, and online editing of nodes? -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bar) hm? would that satisfy you? what about it? hell yeah that should be relatively simple * coreyr/#tunes grins if it got close to pcp in its functionality, that would be great heh that's why it's so frustrating that no tunes ppl have delivered on the simple stuff some people see the forests some see the trees need to see both most tunesers seem to have separate projects they work on PCP ? abi: pcp? pcp is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ Fare: youve been to pcp right? coreyr: uh? hmph. phencyclidine? pneumocystis carinii pneumonia? * water/#tunes just got a faster squeak vm fare: principia cybernetica heh 11:30am what do you call "been to PCP?" have you visited their website? no, I haven't met the belgian guy (tried once) have you looked around the damned site? Fare: me be colloquial, sorry. * water/#tunes wonders why Fare would think of PCP as a physical place at all I visited the web site, long ago its admirable. water when you say "include a simple way for cross-referencing the db entries " you mean like a syntax to link to other nodes hmm pretty much like /migration in the form-based editor it depends on the tool you use and when it displays the page, it inserts it the link? yep like that * water/#tunes nods kay navigation should be extensible? what do you mean? well if we add db's somewhere, it shouldn't take a complete re-design to incorporate it 11:40am content seperated from interface sure well presentation of interface yeah everyone could have their own theme! * coreyr/#tunes is mocking. heh KIS of course i don't know how this would be possible by directly using available tools, but providing some way to write structured specs docs would be helpful or at least allowing them to take advantage of the db system of course structed spec docs? yeah like sgml output or something oh hmm where it's trivial to generate a toc or index refresh. again, what's absolutely needed is just being able to link into the databases what dbs? like RI? the ones for the glossary, mostly oh no ri is more than we need by quite a bit k water: redesign.html yeah i'm looking at it heh, just clarifying. :) one problem is that something with the same name might show up in more than one db, like OS and Language and UI 11:50am so the link syntax should probably include info on which db the entry will be under {lang/lisp} ? sure -:- XeF4 [xef4@194.255.106.103] has joined #tunes so you can do this, yes? i can do anything -:- NetSplit: fastlane.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [11:52am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fastlane.openprojects.net] heh if i run into difficulty, ill work around or plow right over the top of it well, just put up whatever you come up with on arrow.cx more a matter of determination than capability ah -:- Netjoined: fastlane.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes water: everything is. :P well, i'm willing to pay, if that will help :) that would make it boring to me. :) i honestly don't care, just as long as it gets done * coreyr/#tunes 's a wierd guy. no i understand why that would be boring * coreyr/#tunes 5895923s. eh? "eats" k * coreyr/#tunes mocking. heh 12:00pm -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (BitchX: its what's for lunch) hm slate simply can't have bytecodes at all if it's going to have namespaces with *all* the numbers in them well, not static bytecode choices what oo compiler poop u looking at? http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/bluebook/ well, that's not all of it, but still just search for smalltalk-80 on the squeak swiki -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Read error to abi[bespin.dhs.org]: EOF from client) ohoh "ohoh"? s/ohoh/fuck\!\!/ 01:10pm heh * water/#tunes wonders if mentioning atheos here was what got all those people to post the link to /. theres been talk of atheos in alt.os.development too oh which is where i think i found the url ok 01:20pm -:- SignOff _Luke: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- NetSplit: king.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [01:25pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: king.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@lantier.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes abi will be down for a period, ie til i fix her. in the meanwhile, use the db dumps at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/abi/db/ -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes hm ok 01:40pm -:- demoncrat [darius@shell.accesscom.com] has joined #tunes hi hello it's pretty quiet right now, but we'll answer questions you have I've been by a time or two before ok though I hadn't heard of slate before k any code to look at? * water/#tunes is working on slate right now there's a toy evaluator written in lisp, and eihrul's working on the compiler back-end right now the language specification is still being formed, however I can't look at the web right now, for some reason netscape's horribly hung hm lynx? 01:50pm oops :) (I think it'd be more readable if you indented the standard way like emacs does for you) you mean slate code? the evaluator oh sure, i'll add that to my todo list ;) 02:00pm seriously, we'll put in pretty-printing at some point, but not very soon of course we're also leaning away from text-based code oh? visual dataflow diagrams? or do you mean pretty-printing is a definite plus oops. darn this keyboard. I'm at a university computer lab. (esp if you have macros and/or generated code) well, you can just run it through emacs, no hurry building it in :) yes like visual dataflow diagrams have you ever used prograph? heh. I've been thinking of making up a language called acidic. nope, but familiar with the idea. you should probably try it just to get a feel for visual editing of code to neutralize visual basic. you code with dataflow diagrams and lay out your ui using declarative text like html :) :P no not that kind of visual of course not. note that there's an incomplete tutorial available from the slate-new.html er slate-news 02:10pm -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:10pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:18pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #tunes :) 02:20pm ? maybe he's just high-on-life happy it figures 02:30pm the source code still looks like the clearest explanation :) yeah well the syntax hasn't been set in stone just yet, which is why it's not used as much as it should be 02:40pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z!) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp181.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-38.s38.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [03:20pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- water [water@tnt-10-117.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- demoncrat [darius@shell.accesscom.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-133.s133.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie is now known as FufieZzz -:- SignOff demoncrat: #TUNES (*wave*) -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ult [ult@user-38lc69a.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes http://www.feedmag.com/essay/es339_master.html 04:30pm -:- water [water@tnt-10-117.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-117.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes oops -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) wow. even *i* don't want to talk on #tunes anymore ? :) i keep using other channels or private messages i think it's the lurkers that really piss me off... like Fare -:- ult [ult@user-38lc66k.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes i think your campaign to intensify #tunes worked too well :) that's fine with me * water/#tunes just noticed that arrow.cx is in the topic though, admittedly, it did actually work :) 04:40pm well, with nicks like "FufieZzz" in the channel, i'd still say that there's room for improvement -:- coreyr is now known as coreyAWAKE :P hcf: both nicks must be registered with nickserv in order for memoserv to send a message between them -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-204-132-255.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes bbl -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 04:50pm oh yeah, oops -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) 05:00pm -:- water [water@tnt-10-117.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes re water. i forgot to do something -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html toodles -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 05:20pm -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes re abi re corey lookin mighty fine today. *wink* 05:50pm Heh... he's taken, abi. -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) 06:00pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@208-58-195-86.s86.tnt10.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[208-58-195-86.s86.tnt10.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-38lc66k.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff FufieZzz: #TUNES (Ping timeout for FufieZzz[tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no]) -:- FufieZzz [stig@tunnel-44-64.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- supreet [supreet@202.54.109.33] has joined #tunes -:- supreet [supreet@202.54.109.33] has left #tunes [] -:- coreyAWAKE [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has left #tunes [] -:- tav [plex@modem-150.dusty-damsel.dialup.pol.co.uk] has joined #tunes * tav/#tunes waves to the channel -:- tav is now known as tav|away -:- Terralthra [terralthra@c741758-c.plstn1.sfba.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Terralthra: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff tav|away: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tav|away[modem-150.dusty-damsel.dialup.pol.co.uk]) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-134.s134.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- td [x@ilm25-43-036.ec.rr.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: king.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [08:13pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net] hohmm 08:40pm -:- ult [ult@user-38lcmoq.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- td [x@ilm25-43-036.ec.rr.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-134.s134.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0526 IRC log ended Fri May 26 00:00:02 2000