of the node * I440r/#tunes is away: shooting <coreyr> i was thinking of <coreyr> {/path/node:word} <water> ah <coreyr> where word is what you want displayed. :) <water> yes that is nice <coreyr> where /path/ could be relative <coreyr> and word option <coreyr> -al <water> that's extra stuff <water> having the word be optional makes it less systematic and more prone to errors when trying to move things around <coreyr> i meant if it doesnt have word it just uses node <water> i know <coreyr> so word is explicit <water> unless you already have code that handles the feature, i don't care 12:30pm <water> one way or another, i'll have to adapt what i've written to whatever you provide for the long run -:- SignOff _Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _Luke[203.46.39.102]) 12:40pm -:- smoke is now known as zarkk * water/#tunes gets ready to post to mlists about slate -:- extrasolar [extrasolar@client1109.sedona.net] has joined #Tunes <water> re <extrasolar> hello, again * extrasolar/#Tunes reads about "Slate" <water> there's new stuff, btw <water> mostly syntactical, but it makes the language much simpler to grok <extrasolar> heh, I don't even know about the old stuff... I am just trying to figure out what Slate *is*...a programming language it appears <water> yes <water> although it's also an environment :) <water> the object system is a kind of file system <water> not necessarily a hierarchy, but that's what we're building for now <extrasolar> hmm... you mean something like: some_file.delete() <water> picture a web, with the nodes being objects and the directed edges being slots of the object <water> yes, roughly <water> so in slate i would say "some_file delete" 01:30pm <extrasolar> ah, like smalltalk <water> kinda <water> actually the syntax is... <water> "some_file delete ^.." <water> the two dots on the end pull you back from the delete object into the original, and cause the code to execute <water> the caret is "result".... it's the handle for getting "delete" to execute <water> the caret is also an object :) <extrasolar> then wouldn't you need more dots to pull you out of the carrot? <water> damn it, i still don't have the hang of it. that was supposed to be three dots, not two <water> yep :) <extrasolar> heh :) <water> the language also runs a bit like forth.... you can run expressions over lines <water> so if you forgot a dot on the end, you would know immediately because you'd still be in the "some_file" namespace <water> and you could just type "." to make the whole thing happen <water> keep in mind, all of this is very newly worked out <water> s/new/recent/ <coreyr> like by the hour. :) <water> heh <water> no, by the day :P <water> but it works very nicely so far * extrasolar/#Tunes is still trying to figure out how to work the web page... does it require a graphical browser to make sense or something? <coreyr> eihrul needs to get hackin on slate.lisp <water> es: which web page? <extrasolar> the one in the topic <coreyr> extrasolar: switch nodespace to tutorial <coreyr> then select different nodes with the nodes link on the bottom <coreyr> the nodes are supposed to link together <water> there's also the old docs <coreyr> mea culpa. -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Slate Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial <water> damn that's a long topic -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Slate Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial <extrasolar> "unification of object-oriented and <extrasolar> functional ideas" <-- sounds like it could get ugly <water> heh <water> i've been working on that for months.... what you saw is part of the result 01:40pm <water> the other part is the stuff for the type system and the stuff for object identity control <water> es: the majority of the info on slate is on the semantics page on the old site <extrasolar> I'm perusing the page http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html now <water> ok <extrasolar> so, is Tunes really going to be developed or is only going to be designed? <coreyr> heh * extrasolar/#Tunes hopes that came out right <water> we want this thing very badly.... how's that? <coreyr> extrasolar: i think water's work on slate is a step forward <extrasolar> I'm sorry, I said that wrong. <water> anything's a step forward from the tunes site stuff <coreyr> Archive <coreyr> misfire. <water> es: so what did you mean? <water> heh 01:50pm <extrasolar> well, you need kernal hackers for a kernal, and compiler people for a compiler, and windowing people for a windowing system... do you have all the needed specialties? <water> btw, you should know that the slate semantics idea started back in '95 <extrasolar> thats more or less what I meant, I think <coreyr> extrasolar: hmm. <water> we have a few people who can handle the necessities <water> the problem has been that we have had no HLL that we could say would work for Tunes <water> i think if we develop the HLL, people will come <coreyr> isnt that what lmaxson is working on? :) <water> besides, ordinary kernel hackers won't do <water> :P <ult> extrasolar you can't spell. <water> yeah "kernel" doesn't have an "a" in it <extrasolar> whoops <ult> unless your talking about Amigas <ult> er C64 <ult> er <ult> One of em had a kernal :) <water> heh <water> kernels suck <water> but that's just my tunes opinion <extrasolar> so you have the talent to develop a Slate compiler? or is it interpreter? <water> there are two, right now <water> slate.lisp is an interpreter <water> eihrul's been working on the dynamic compiler back-end <water> afaik he's waiting for a complete spec on slate from me <ult> haha <water> and of course, we also have trolls here to keep us entertained :P <extrasolar> sorry for my misunderstanding <water> no worries <ult> water <coreyr> ult <ult> you've flamebaited a lot of people. <water> what's your point? :) 02:00pm <extrasolar> is there any example code of the Slate? <water> ok eihrul seems to agree to updating slate.lisp <water> http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html <coreyr> is he now? <water> dunno <coreyr> i think it would be nice for a web->slate.lisp gateway <water> so make one ;) <water> es: you looking at the old tutorial? <eihrul> water: if you want a stand-alone slate.lisp binary, lemme know <water> hm <eihrul> well, won't be slate.lisp anymore, but :) <ult> eihrul?? <ult> slate.lisp binary? <water> maybe <ult> did you pirate ACL or something? :) <eihrul> you know i did... with my 1337 p1r4t3 sk1llz <coreyr> heh <extrasolar> water: I am looking at the URL you just gave me <water> ok -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-93.s93.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <water> re <extrasolar> what's a slot <hcf> re who? <extrasolar> ? <water> re hcf <hcf> re water <coreyr> re HCF <water> slots are the elements of objects <water> like names within namespaces <water> hcf: who are you, anyway? :) <extrasolar> like methods? <water> yes <extrasolar> ah.. <coreyr> but they are objects themselves <water> but slots can point to things they don't "contain" <water> like the "<" slot 02:10pm <extrasolar> Do any of you notice the analogy Unix : C :: Tunes : Slate ? <water> :) <ult> What is K? <ult> extrasolar: Some day you really ought to read the tunes.org website ;) <extrasolar> ult: I have been... why? <water> hm <water> APL -> J -> K <water> the latter two are much more user-friendly than the former <water> and they have some interesting concepts * water/#tunes looks on the tunes review page <water> apl isn't even there <water> we need to get this nodified so updating crap like this is trivial <water> or, rather, distributable ;) <water> oh wait, apl and k are both mentioned, not reviewed 02:20pm <water> hm this is what you get when you make one big flat html document and it expands to 130kb <water> i wonder what kind of system Tril is putting together? <coreyr> yeah <water> i'm mailing tril to ask <coreyr> i need to talk to him about an account too. * coreyr/#tunes mails too. <coreyr> dem@ right? <water> ya <coreyr> @what.dom ? <water> heh <water> tunes.org :P <coreyr> just makin sure. :) <ult> What is tril making? <water> or bespin.dhs.org or bespin.cx <ult> The review thing? <water> the database <water> for review <coreyr> i think it would be better in nodes <water> whichever <coreyr> all site materal unified <coreyr> :P 02:30pm <water> the idea was that review needs to have some structure built-in <coreyr> yeah i made some changes to the diktuon idea that i think would cover that <ult> well it certainly needs to be indexable and searchable <water> not necessarily free-form html <water> ult: quite true <ult> I'd like to see lots of embedded links to research papers and the likes in there <hcf> needs updates too <ult> Because there seems to be a lot of crap on RI/Cora <water> yep <ult> And...another thing...it would be very nice if it was easy to add/modify entries <water> i can do that as long as the interface is simple <ult> via the web or something <coreyr> ult: diktuon. <ult> Perhaps a web program that mails it to review@ and adds it to the DB :) <water> yeah, ult, take a look at diktuon <coreyr> its a mess right now <water> more incentive for you to clean it up ;) <coreyr> argh <coreyr> yeah ok. <water> well, at least to build stuff so other people *can* clean it up <coreyr> chgrp tuneser diktuon/ <coreyr> :P <water> heh <coreyr> man tril emails back fast <water> i mean namespaces, themes, and such <water> cool, he's online then <water> i invited him to talk here <ult> hmm <ult> ok, diktuon looks nifty. <water> check olddata listing <coreyr> most of whats making it unusable is the regexp's for the linking <water> almost everything's there but review <coreyr> and no one on #php (opn and efnet) know anything <water> heh <ult> yer uh <ult> not writing diktuon in php are you <coreyr> ugh yeah <coreyr> chaning to perl asap <coreyr> +G <water> ult: btw, do you have a better system to suggest? 02:40pm <coreyr> (and time to commit?) :) <water> heh <ult> well <ult> what if you used cl-httpd <ult> and wrote the entire sucker in Lisp <ult> and kept all of the entries as real Lisp objects in the core <water> none of us are cl'ers <ult> let virtual memory handle that <water> xcept maybe you ;) * ult/#Tunes has just wanted to see a good real application of some of cl-httpds features <coreyr> heh <extrasolar> cl == common lisp? <water> yep <ult> diktuon doesn't sound too complex though <water> where's that todo list? <water> http://diktuon.arrow.cx/show.php?ns=olddata&name=diktuon <water> that's it <ult> what kind of db are you using? 02:50pm <hcf> pgsql <ult> ugh * ult/#Tunes would use plain text for the entries themselves, and generate a "concordance" (word reference count) for searching <ult> directories define namespaces, and if the entries were multiple-file you could easily manage a lot of stuff <ult> *and* it's very easy to backup/restore/edit by hand, and quite a bit more portable... <ult> not to mention not nearly as syntactically limiting as a SQL database, because you don't have any kind of fixed fields, and you don't have to hack around <water> yes, but will you build it? <ult> hmm, I do have a lot of free time ;) <hcf> <fare> feel free </fare> <ult> bbl -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) <water> heh <water> corey: what did tril say? <water> forget it, bbiaf 03:00pm <extrasolar> Slate is the same as the HLL on the Tunes site, right? <coreyr> hmm <Fare> ought to be <coreyr> water: he didnt respond <extrasolar> Okay, then what is the HLL? <coreyr> water: after he asked me if it was for tunes <extrasolar> anybody? <coreyr> extrasolar: slate is the candidate for it, if it satisfies the requirements. <extrasolar> hmmm... <extrasolar> are there other candidates? 03:10pm <Fare> the HLL currently is but a dream <Fare> no candidate that isn't far behind <extrasolar> you speak in poetry -:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp1.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes <water> hm 03:20pm <extrasolar> hm <water> epic poetry, actually <water> just read the html Fare writes <extrasolar> Well, I started to read "Why a New OS?" ... <Fare> ouch <smklsmkl> Fare: can you op my bots at #lambda? <smklsmkl> they failed after three months ... looks like my univ network was down almost all the day <extrasolar> Fare: I hope I didn't say anything that brought offence <coreyr> extrasolar: dont be so apologetic. <coreyr> ill tell you when its your fault. :) <extrasolar> coreyr: good, because most of the time I can't tell 03:30pm <extrasolar> what is the LLL? C? <water> no, it's a framework for describing tunes implementations <extrasolar> which language have you chosen for LLL? <water> hm <water> forth or joy i suppose <extrasolar> oh... <Fare> extrasolar: I hope _I_ didn't say anything too silly in that article <Fare> should be revised <Fare> most of it is a messy draft <hcf> Fare: then revise it 03:40pm <extrasolar> Far�: I guess I never thought of computers at such a high level... I still don't know why another OS? <extrasolar> Far�: but I didn't read the whole paper <extrasolar> (you do have an accent on the 'e', right?) <extrasolar> whao, you wrote that *today* <water> hm? <water> wrote what? 03:50pm -:- SignOff zarkk: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes <Fare> extra: because current OSes are not _expressive_ enough <Fare> yes I have an accent, but irc ain't 8-bit clean <extrasolar> well, I have to do...nice talking <extrasolar> s/do/go -:- SignOff extrasolar: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) <smklsmkl> irc has "support" for �, � and � though 04:00pm <coreyr> which looks like little sigma, big sigma and divide sign to me <water> heh <smklsmkl> your font is not ISO 8859-1 compliant then * coreyr/#tunes shrugs. <smklsmkl> anyway [ and {, ] and } and | and \ are equal in irc because of them <coreyr> one more reason for tunes <hcf> icac, http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/projects/forth.html http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/projects/backends.html <smklsmkl> what is the significance of "ac" in that URL? <water> hm thx 04:10pm -:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (brb.) -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smklsmkl: #TUNES (back tomorrow) -:- billh [billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com] has joined #tunes <billh> Hello. <water> hey <coreyr> re BILLH <billh> What's up ? <water> putting together new slate docs, here <water> or at least i *was* 04:40pm * Fare/#Tunes is back <water> hm <billh> Yeah, getting sick of using Linux over here. ;-) <billh> I'm primarily a FreeBSD user now since I can't stand various performance issues with Linux. <billh> This Virtual Memory/IO thing that's been going on has been completely out of control in Linux. <billh> Plus the Ports collection has allowed me to easil upgrade my box if I have enough disk space. <coreyr> unless the port is out of date. <coreyr> or there is no port <coreyr> :P <coreyr> but besides that, id take ports over rpm or deb anyday 04:50pm <hcf> ok, take *bsd vs linux elsewhere <water> like #{} :) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ <coreyr> re Tril <Tril> hello... <Tril> Corey I guess you are different corey than I know, since you said I don't know you? <water> hey <water> ltns <coreyr> ive never spoken with you directly i dont think. <water> tril: so what are you using right now to put together the tunes web db? <Tril> ok, there's another Corey who has hung around the tunes project for a long time. <Tril> water, I'm working in Zope, PostgreSQL and almost done <Tril> It's not the "tunes web" it's just for part of Review right now <Tril> Will your web page support multiple ways of viewing the data? <water> oh ok <water> http://diktuon.arrow.cx <water> ours is less db-oriented <water> but then we haven't addressed review at all <water> hm <water> diktuon's pretty slow right now for some reason <coreyr> ? <coreyr> instant for me. :) <water> dunno, it took 45 sec to load here <water> heh lag time then <water> Tril: so we're putting together something to handle recursive namespaces and small html nodes <Tril> lag is probably due to having ONE nameserver for arrow.cx, and it's on a slow link.. <water> for things like the glossary and specs <water> yes 05:00pm * billh/#tunes reads a discussion on Linux-kernel about GNOME and GUI techologies. <coreyr> my link would be fast enough if it werent for napster or gnutella. :P <water> arrow.cx doesn't hold much right now besides diktuon <coreyr> ever since the rabble got ahold of them, its been really bad. <coreyr> water: i do have another nameserver. <water> ok * water/#tunes is not web-savvy <billh> water Don't worry, most of the folks here aren't web savvy either. <Tril> what server is diktuon running on? <coreyr> my box <Tril> hmm, same as the nameserver I see <Tril> what connection ? <coreyr> {}? <Tril> I'm getting 400 ping to it.. 56K modem? <coreyr> not entirely sure, its a college apartment complex with ethernet each room. <coreyr> supports 2500 students <Tril> what country? <coreyr> florida, us <Tril> maybe it's just since you're downloading.. <Tril> or uploading or whatever <water> napping <Tril> oh you aren't running it yourself, just others in your apt? <coreyr> no its right in front of me <coreyr> it appears exceptionally bad right now <coreyr> hmm <water> anyway, Tril, we were wondering how feasible it would be to combine the efforts here <coreyr> yeah, have you anything visible? <water> either if what you're doing can use what content we've ported (like the glossary) or if the two can be made inter-operable or what <coreyr> Tril: how exactly does you thing work? <water> how many nodes do we have now? 220? <coreyr> yeah <Tril> ... <Tril> i dont want to give out access until it's done.. the permissions aren't set yet 05:10pm <Tril> I'd be glad to explain.. <coreyr> go ahead <Tril> do you know about Zope? <coreyr> yeah <Tril> I'm using the PostgreSQL database adapter. I designed an SQL database for certain parts of Review, namely OSes/LAnguages/VMs <Tril> I'm making zope interface to add new review entries right now <water> hm <Fare> Tril! <water> how simple would it be to adapt what you make into something useful for the whole site? <Tril> Well, I can adapt my zope knowledge I have learned into something for the whole site. It's possible.. first I'm just focusing on this.. <water> hm <Tril> It requires a good amount of preparation for the structure, though. I think a structure-less system is useful, too <Tril> hello, Fare... <water> so what can we do to put all this together? * coreyr/#tunes will help <billh> water What are you doing ? <Tril> The first thing I thought of that would be useful is if we could share the database of off-site links. <billh> building a manual for a techology you're developing ? <water> i really hate that word <billh> "technology" ? <water> yes <billh> I like it. ;-) <water> anyway <coreyr> techne logos <Tril> If you guys get the postgres module for PHP you can start right away.. <water> we were considering a pre-processor that would generate the urls for syntax like {OS/Mach} <coreyr> Tril: already got it <billh> water Why's that ? unified Plan-ish namespaces ? <Tril> water: wha? <billh> ...plan8-ish...? <billh> ...plan9-ish...? <billh> Shit... <water> that way the only url on the site to maintain would be at one location <Fare> "unified" ? <water> bill: shush <Tril> water: I assume you are talking about your internal diktuon URLs? <water> yes <Tril> I was talking about external links. <Fare> how are they unified? -:- morton [unknown@AC855ED1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes <water> the external links would only be on one node, though <water> the review node <water> everything else would point to that node <Tril> water: so you can't embed external links in an arbitrary place in the web? <Tril> I thought it was supposed to be a free-form space? <coreyr> you can do anything you want <water> yes you can <billh> .quit 05:20pm -:- SignOff billh: #TUNES (BitchX: more nutritious than a six-pack.) * coreyr/#tunes makes tril an account on diktuon. <Tril> coreyr: http://tunes.org/poll.html <Tril> become a tunes member, then get a bespin account <morton> i have a question about forth. <hcf> morton: ask it in #forth <water> diktuon already inlines(?) the node as text into the page and renders it as html <morton> if all the simple words such as +, dup, etc are defined as blocks of code with push/pop sequences + 2 jmps, isn't that a bit inefficient? <water> but naturally it's much simpler if one doesn't have to maintain url's in nodes besides review nodes <Tril> coreyr: a member of the philosophy that "can always edit it later" ,eh? <coreyr> no, i just dont care to fill out a resume right now. :) <Tril> well, you can :) * water/#tunes still doesn't want to be listed as a tunes member <Tril> water: do you use the water@tunes.org email address? <water> yes <Tril> So you want to "be" a member, just not be listed? <water> something like that <water> i just didn't like seeing my name next to all of those other tunes "members" who only pay lip service to it <water> anyway <water> how soon will your work be done, Tril? <Tril> hopefully next day or two for when I can let people try it out <water> ok <water> like i said, we have 220 nodes without a decent interface to the public <water> and we stopped porting the tunes site mostly because of the limitations of the tools <Tril> :( <Tril> Now you see why the site is in disarray, we need tunes to fix it. 05:30pm <water> bah! <water> screw that <Tril> Or we can just do lots of work and fix it anyway <water> well, let hcf and coreyr where they can help you <water> s/where/know where/ <water> Right Now :) <Tril> what do you mean you stopped porting the tunes site? are you giving up on diktuon? Or is it to be used for brainstorming, stuff other than the tunes site info? <water> no, diktuon was turning out to not support what we thought it could <coreyr> well it can <Tril> brb <water> but <coreyr> it just not as easy as i anticipated. :) -:- SignOff morton: #TUNES (morton has no reason) <water> did he ever go to #forth? <hcf> yeah <water> oh good <hcf> and TheBlueWizard talk'd to him <Tril> back <water> hm <water> so what's the .plan then? <Tril> tel lme how to use my dikt account now and I'll look at it <water> coreyr? <coreyr> takin care of it <water> ok 05:40pm -:- `water [water@tnt-9-119.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-5.tscnet.net]) -:- `water is now known as water <Tril> laggg <coreyr> im going to complain on monday, this is absurd. <Tril> how do I make a line break <coreyr> <br> <coreyr> :) <water> heh <Tril> you need to set magic_quotes_gpc and magic_quotes_runtime to Off in php3.ini, so that editing something with quotes doesnt infinitely increase backslashes -:- ult [ult@user-38lcdmm.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes 05:50pm <coreyr> ok <coreyr> and btw, its php4 <Tril> well, i hope it has a similar option :) <coreyr> have you used phps <coreyr> regex? <Tril> I don'tthink so. <Tril> coreyr I assume you have looked at variants on Wiki <Tril> because that's exactly what you're trying to write- a variant of Wiki <water> no <water> well, close <water> zwiki has something called wikipaths that they are looking at <hcf> wiki has its own "format" <water> but wiki's are totally amorphous <Tril> hcf: format? I don't think so <Tril> so are inter-node links just not working yet? <coreyr> yeah <Tril> still deciding how they will work? <coreyr> and nothing is cleaned up <coreyr> no <coreyr> im having problems implementing them <coreyr> regex. :) <hcf> coreyr: specifically, pcre <coreyr> well pcre and posix on php 06:00pm -:- hcf_ [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[207-172-225-93.s93.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf <Tril> try some other channel? :-) <water> hm? <coreyr> oh i did <coreyr> no one was of aid <coreyr> it wasnt a solicitation. :) <Tril> well, I left the dikt site it was too slow (what else is there to see?) <coreyr> sigh <coreyr> your depressing me. <Tril> you are welcome to put it on bespin. <coreyr> kay <coreyr> how fast are you? 06:10pm <Tril> 2 T1's <Tril> P150/64 ram <water> tril: corey's getting modules to fix his problem <coreyr> Tril: who do you share it with? <Tril> water: the regex problem? <water> tril: yes <Tril> coreyr: nas.com <ult> corey what is the problem? <coreyr> heh <coreyr> convert all instances of {nodespace_nodename} to <a href="show.php?ns=nodespace&name=nodename>nodename</a> <Tril> in PHP4. <coreyr> with the first one nodename, all spaces to +'s <Tril> or could you use apache ReWriteRules -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) <coreyr> Tril: how? <coreyr> its pulled from a instance in pgsql <Tril> zope uses apache rewriterules to rewrite /path/to/node in a URL into inserting a path in front, see this <Tril> RewriteRule ^/(.*) /var/www/htdocs/cgi-bin/zope/Zope.cgi/$1 [e=HTTP_CGI_AUTHORIZ <Tril> ATION:%1,t=application/x-httpd-cgi,l] <Tril> # <Tril> I assume you could put the $1 multiple places, and have a $2 <Tril> It will handle incoming URL requests.. so it could expand without the user having to see what it expanded to <Tril> (ignore the part about authorization, that lets zope handle the lookups for http Basic auth) 06:20pm <coreyr> but a nodename can have spaces <water> hm <Tril> For what I am talking about you would actually use <A HREF="{foo_bar}"> so I guess it would have to be %20 if it had spaces -:- Noop [ubiquity@dm4-150.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes <water> hi nop <Noop> Howdy. <water> what brings ya here? <Tril> What's this about switching diktuon to perl? <Noop> The desperate plea for souls to fill this channel on www.tunes.org <water> heh <water> blame Tril for that one ;) <Noop> It may be a year ol' plea, but still valid nonetheless. <Tril> Noop: there is one qualification, you have to talk about TUNES if you fill the channel <water> can we answer questions for ya? <water> Tril: give some of us OPs! <water> er... OPs rights at least <Tril> ok, i'll look into that.. hold <water> thx <water> just talk to chanserv <water> anyway <hcf> me too plz :) <water> noop: i assume that like all new people to this channel, that you have a question or two 06:30pm <coreyr> got some tunes? <water> :P <Noop> water: nothing that can't be answered on the web site, I guess. <water> oh there's plenty that can't be answered on the web site ;) <Noop> water: I'll take a moment in contemplation and see if I can't muster anything up. <water> heh don't worry about it -:- hcf was kicked off #TUNES by Tril (rejoin please) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #TUNES 06:40pm -:- mode/#tunes [+o hcf] by ChanServ <hcf> hmm -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <Tril> Auto-op is disabled for this channel <Tril> so you have to ask for it each time <water> it's not needed <Tril> that's the way I wanted it.. <water> cool -:- mode/#tunes [+o hcf] by ChanServ <Tril> except me, it always auto-ops me since I created the channel <water> so anyway -:- mode/#tunes [-o hcf] by hcf <water> is this stuff about the db's resolved or no? -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kyle_L[cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com]) <coreyr> i dunno <coreyr> im going to continue diktuon <water> now that you have a usable regexp parser? <coreyr> i wasnt just doing it for tunes <water> well, i don't want it for just tunes either ;) <Tril> no, it's not resolved if you mean which db is going to have what in it, etc <water> yes i guess we do have that <water> however, linking from diktuon into the review db still has to be implemented <water> i'm assuming hcf or corey can do that? <Fare> seen the pliant db system? <Fare> stupid and simple <Tril> water: you mean linking into the db structure I've designed? <Fare> yet great for relatively small object graphs <water> tril: yes <Tril> well, two ways, he can either use <a href ..> and link a URL that accesses my zope stuff <Tril> or he can log into the same Postgres database and access and format it himself <coreyr> how is it stored? <water> i assume it'd just be as simple as handling the review links separately from the rest <Tril> coreyr: I'll send you the overview in email to your tunes addy (which you should forward if you want) 06:50pm <water> hm <water> Tril: how's that object/type system going? <Tril> um, I'll work on that after this review thing looks ok <water> ok, just wondering <coreyr> heh <Tril> maybe also after I catch up on tunes mlist email <water> there hasn't been much, lately <Tril> yeah, but I have not read it for a LONG time. :) <water> you're some mailing list administrator, you know that? ;) <Tril> Actually , I have been administrating it, just not reading it <Tril> I check for bounced posts and approve them if needed <water> Tunes: the orphaned project -:- SignOff Noop: #TUNES (Read error to Noop[dm4-150.slc.aros.net]: Connection reset by peer) <water> hm 07:00pm <Tril> almost there... <water> almost where? <Tril> only a couple more objects to add for this review thing. <water> cool <water> hm i may as well put my name on the members list <Tril> is it there now? <water> no not yet <water> is there a way to edit an existing members entry? <Tril> yeah, through CVS <water> :P <Tril> or asking someone to do it for you through CVS... <water> why not a db? :) <Tril> patience! <Tril> actually, I have an empty db skeleton for the members info <water> it's a shame i have to spend my work hours in M$ Access <Tril> it could be added easily to zope later <Tril> where do you work now? <water> same ship... different job <water> heh i telecommute :) <Tril> so, using a computer, unlike before? sounds better already. <Tril> you really work from off the ship? <water> yep, although they ask for some pretty tall orders to be implemented over Access <water> yes <water> you know i live in seattle now, right? <Tril> I heard you moved there, y <water> ok <Tril> don't have to go on board ever, or just rarely? <water> btw we have a mutual acquaintance now <water> a couple of days a week for now <Tril> who is it? my dad, or someone from WWU? <water> wwu <water> frank something-or-other <Tril> Schmidt? <water> yeah that's it <Tril> Schmitt actually <Tril> he's a hardware guru <water> yeah ee 07:10pm <Tril> He modified my friend's motherboard for him <ult> What? <ult> What do you mean modified? <Tril> http://www.asuscom.de/de/support/techmain/FAQ/mobo_cpu/faq034_lx_tntrew.htm <Tril> that should end with tntrew.htm I can't tell if it does <water> it does <Tril> water: so, how do you know him? <water> oh, we met online <Tril> well there is the #wcug channel <water> he's looking to move here, and just wanted to meet interesting people <Tril> a lot of WCUG'ers move to seattle. <water> no, this was a .com service... anonymous and such <coreyr> doesnt this belong in #{}? <water> true :) <water> except Tril doesn't seem to want to go ;) <Tril> no, I'll just stop talking about it :) <water> how much have you looked at slate? <Tril> I read all the web page, didn't try to understand the lisp source codew <water> the lisp source is not the thing to read <water> unless eihrul updates it to the new syntax etc 07:20pm <water> did you read my latest post on it? <Tril> on the slate list? <water> and the tunes list? :) * I440r/#tunes is back <Tril> No, I didn't. <water> i found out that the most natural syntax for slate was forth-like instead of lisp-like <water> hm you really haven't been around for a while, so there's a lot that's probably chainged since you last looked <water> it doesn't matter... the language is pretty damned simple now * water/#tunes returns to reading pldi 07:30pm <water> btw, i think the next time my ship goes out, i'm going to rewrite the arrow paper <water> and write up something for the second one <water> i forget, is there a drawing editor that outputs latex? * water/#tunes chks fm 07:40pm -:- billh [billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com] has joined #tunes <billh> Hello <Tril> hi <water> RE <water> oops <water> :) <billh> How's tunes stuff going ;-) <billh> ? <water> i think we have a working .plan for improving the website <water> that should be ready soon * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] <water> and i'm reading pldi for ideas on slate spec <hcf> water: smth here might help, http://SAL.KachinaTech.COM/index.shtml <water> k <hcf> http://gd.tuwien.ac.at:8050/E/2/IPE.html <water> yeah i was just about to look at that 07:50pm -:- extrasolar [extrasolar@client651.sedona.net] has joined #Tunes <water> re es <extrasolar> hello, again 08:00pm <extrasolar> will Tunes be multi-user? <water> it's supposed to be <extrasolar> "supposed"? is that another way of saying yes or not sure? <water> heh <water> yes * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 25 min 41 secs <Tril> the answer is yes <water> :P * extrasolar/#Tunes hates this sort of logic. <ult> Heya tril. <Tril> hi <water> sorry, but the "will tunes support feature x?" question has a pretty much automatic answer ;) <eihrul> "it's supposed to support feature x" <water> except in the case where feature x is non-tunes-like * water/#tunes pats eihrul on the head <eihrul> water: even non-tunes-like features would be supported :) 08:10pm <eihrul> that was one of the provisions of the HLL spec IIRC <water> supported, but not endorsed <eihrul> that the user can give up what he feels unnecessary <water> sure <water> but that's easy :) <ult> What if I find the HLL unnecessary :) <I440r> ult you know cvs rite ? <water> then you give up tunes <I440r> im reading the manual now and the part about rsh (.hosts) confuses me <ult> its ez <ult> nit <ult> o' <I440r> it says i shud put someuser.somehost.com in the .rhosts of the "remote machine" but it doesnt tell me where im supposed to put the .rhosts file <ult> usdhuishfiushfuishf <hcf> take cvs poop elsewhere <Tril> you dont use CVS with rsh, usually you use it with SSH <Tril> hcf :#t <I440r> cvs uses rsh. it says so in the shit im reading <I440r> hcf. take that negative attitude elsewhere <Tril> CVS_RSH=ssh (always) <ult> Tril, you can use rhs. <ult> rsh even. <Tril> you can use telnet, too, but should you? :) <ult> If you want to join in, I'll be glad to talk to anyone on #Forth, I use CVS for my source code control. <water> so anyway... <extrasolar> hmm, I always thought of multi-users capability as a design issue rather than a feature <Tril> it's an option <water> tunes *is* supposed to deal with de-centralized activity <water> so multi-user installations should be straightforward from the more general framework put into it <I440r> <water> tunes *is* supposed to deal with de-centralized activity <-- wtf is taht supposed to mean ?> <water> distributed computations etc <water> read the glossary entry for de-centralized <extrasolar> okay <water> most programming languages stick with the von neumann architecture, that's the distinction i was trying to make <ult> er <ult> water? <ult> how so? <ult> I would say a lot of them are more like the Harvard architecture <extrasolar> water: is that kind of like Plan 9's idea of file servers and CPU server (even though that is low level compared to what Tunes aspires to be, AFAICT) <water> how will tunes be de-centralized or how do programming languages sitck with the von neumann ...? <ult> Simply because of code/data sections. <water> lol <ult> :) <water> ok <water> es: hm <water> es: yes like that somewhat * water/#tunes must look at the plan9 manuals again soon <water> i definitely need to work on the slate MOP 08:20pm <extrasolar> MOP, what does that stand for? <water> abi: mop <abi> mop is Meta-Object Protocol <water> it's the set of objects used to reify how a given object works <water> like if i'm in smalltalk, the MOP for any object has a Behavior object and such like that for the given object <water> CLOS has a ridiculously detailed one <extrasolar> okay, and this protocal is used internally or for distributed computing? <water> well, it's not *that* detailed, but clos-identifiers-are-oh-so-long :) <water> oh it's not a protocol like IP is a protocol <extrasolar> ahh <water> it's a protocol in the sense that each environment or language has a given way of reifying its concepts as meta-objects <water> since lisp has different kinds of objects than, say, Java <extrasolar> reifying doesn't seem to be a word <Tril> it is now <water> it's a word <water> http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=reify <Tril> weird people use it <extrasolar> I have consulted two dictionaries trying to figure out what you are talking about <water> To regard or treat (an abstraction) as if it had concrete or material existence. <water> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <water> oops <ult> in other words <ult> make pretend :) <water> yep <extrasolar> okay, I found it now <ult> <water:#tunes> it's the set of objects used to reify how a given object works <water> simulate, emulate, interpret, .... :) <extrasolar> but not as reifying <ult> In English: It's the set of objects that emulates how a given object operates <water> yes <ult> Except it sounds cooler. <water> you can use meta-objects to change how your original objects work <ult> We don't know much here. But we know our buzzwords. Meta-object protocols, polymorphic inline caches, ... :) <water> yep :) <extrasolar> reify v : consider an abstract concept to be real <water> the nice thing is that when you change the meta-object, you don't have to change the object's source code (ideally) <extrasolar> i like the gdict definition better <water> ok <water> gdict.org? <extrasolar> no, the dictionary program that comes with GNOME <water> oh that <extrasolar> useful, it is 08:30pm <extrasolar> can someone point me to where the slate.lisp is? <ult> heh <ult> its in lee's directory <water> http://www.tunes.org/~eihrul/ <extrasolar> water: sorry for bothering you, maybe someone else can answer my questions? -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-119.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water_ [water@tnt-9-119.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- water_ is now known as water <extrasolar> which lisp implementation do I need? <water> lee says it'll work with any good cl <water> keep in mind, it's got the old syntax <ult> it will work with any good CLTL2 CL,I will vouch for that <ult> Probably CLTL1 <extrasolar> I guess I'm going to install CLISP then <ult> hmm <ult> bill maher is kinda cool. <extrasolar> bill maher? <ult> Comedian <extrasolar> ahh <extrasolar> I thought it was a lisp implementation :) <water> lol 08:40pm <water> hm gdict is online <water> yep it's mit's old dict server <water> if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me <extrasolar> slate.lisp seems kind of small for a programming language... <water> it's a toy <extrasolar> maybe I'm not used to Lisp... <water> it just interprets the very basic syntax * extrasolar/#Tunes likes toys <water> it can't even modify slot lists <extrasolar> sure, but I am in desperate need for the *feel* of the language <extrasolar> maybe that's an overstatement, but you get the idea <water> open up xterm ;) <water> or rather, run plan9 ;) <extrasolar> my assumption is that slate will be a major influence as to how Tunes will be implemented <water> well, the HLL will... whether slate is the HLL or not.... who knows <extrasolar> water: I am not following you...what does plan9 have to do with it? -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) <water> plan9 uses directory structure to a greater benefit than *nix 08:50pm <extrasolar> I consider plan9 a modern Unix * water/#tunes decides to grab the plan9 manual to remember how <water> bah <extrasolar> IMHO <water> plan9 represents one research direction for unix -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes <extrasolar> what research direction do you think unix was of? :) <water> i guess by the usual standards it's really modern <water> the whole byte-stream basis is pretty old <water> and text files and such <extrasolar> I am saying modern as in more emphasis in distributed computing than timesharing... that sort of thing <water> a modern unix would be OO to the core <water> ok <extrasolar> I don't think unix ever had the seeds of OO...If you did OO'ed Unix, I don't think you call it UNIX <water> yes, but there's nothing stopping you from taking the basic unix structure and making it more modular and based on OO code <water> and less dependant on byte streams per se <water> it would probably still be able to run *nix stuff, just like Mach can <extrasolar> well, byte streams and text files are basic components of C, which UNIX relies heavily on. That's why I made the analogy with Tunes earlier today <water> hm plan9 isn't unix compatible <water> yeah <water> but you could make a good os out of a language like hmm <water> i was going to say C++, but i think ObjC would be better <extrasolar> C++ and ObjC are both based on C, and therefore Unix <water> heh <ult> well the C syntax itself is not UNIX-specific 09:00pm <ult> Even ANSI C isn't extremely UNIX-specific -- it was defined this way. <extrasolar> no, but many OSs were inspired by UNI in some way <ult> It's when you get into extensions, OS interfaces, that everything looks like UNIX. <ult> Sockets, IPC, memory management(Well, that's ANSI, but...) <extrasolar> well things like stdin, stdout, sterr, and the arguments to main <extrasolar> yeah <water> here's a plan9 quote: <water> A number of unusual services are provided within the kernel as local file systems. These services are not limited to I/O devices such as disks. They include network devices and their associated protocols, the bitmap display and mouse, a representation of processes similar to /proc [Killian], the name/value pairs that form the `environment' passed to a new process, profiling services, and other resources. <ult> well, stdin/stdout/stderr aren't unix specific <ult> they are more console-based-OS-specific <ult> water yep and they are pretty fast too <extrasolar> ult: I would bet they were heavily inspired by UNIX <ult> well designed <extrasolar> as are most (all?) console based systems <ult> extrasolar: I disagree. I think UNIX was heavily inspired by other console based systems. <ult> :) <water> or systems w/o consoles <ult> But even those used streams for teletypes <water> right <extrasolar> heh, I read about this one system older than UNIX, it was based on pascal, I think, and had a completely menu-driven interface and no file hierarchy whatsoever <water> all the way back to Turing's machine with the infinite tape :) <water> eh? <extrasolar> I forgot what the system was called... <water> p-machine? <extrasolar> yes! <water> dude that's a bytecode virtual machine <extrasolar> yes <water> we still have those oses :) <extrasolar> why? <water> uh because we like bytecode vm's? :) <water> actually squeak now has recursive namespaces <extrasolar> no, I meant why do we still have p-machines <water> and a gui and console interface, but oh well :) <water> oh <water> intermediate code for pascal compilers :) <extrasolar> squeak is pretty cool but I can't stand its interface <water> did you try morphic? <water> btw, you can change that interface <extrasolar> no, I never heard of it <water> morphic is the squeak UI that you *don't* start up in (until 2.8) <water> which squeak did you try? 09:10pm <extrasolar> 2.7 <extrasolar> heh <water> oh well <extrasolar> it wasn't too long ago either <water> yeah 2.7 is still the public version <water> anyways... <ult> hmm <ult> water what do you mean you don't start up in <ult> are you talking about that thing with the play with me? <extrasolar> heheh :) <water> when you start the VM with the official virgin image, you're in MVC, not morphic <Tril> ok who wants to try it out <Tril> zope zope zope <water> me <water> i <water> myself <Tril> well, first, everyone can go to http://zope.tunes.org and look at the format, sort of. <Tril> it has bogus data, though :) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-75-219.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes <water> lar: tunes zope is up <water> wow.... it looks..... practically empty <extrasolar> wouldn't that be easier with just straight html? <extrasolar> :) <Tril> no * water/#tunes goes for a test-drive * extrasolar/#Tunes thens clicks a link <water> hm <water> "Adding entry..." is not a very informative thing to show :) 09:20pm <water> Tril: does the review section get parsed as html or just added as plain-text? <lar1> water: Where? <lar1> Oh my god <lar1> Tril is here and alive! <Tril> water: not sure what you mean <water> lar: same place it ever was <Tril> Oh.. um.. yes I do <lar1> zope.tunes.org? <water> Tril: the review section of an entry <ult> UltDoc is better than Zope or Diktuon <Tril> water: well, embedded URL's should not go in the review text <water> ok <Tril> the external links are stored separately together, so they can be automatically checked... <lar1> ...Uhhh, it looks like it did months ago. Did Tril modify the underlying structure? <Tril> also, the links are separate from any review, so any review can discuss any of the links. <water> ok <Tril> lar1: nothing is "changed", but now it is almost operational <lar1> Tril: Hmm, ok <Tril> I gave water access to add info * water/#tunes is porting the Haskell entry <Tril> water: If you add an implementation, just select GPL as the license for now, even if it's not (GPL is the only option) <water> ok <water> no links for implementations? <Tril> should be able to <water> it's not in the form <Tril> you can't enter a link while you are adding it, you have to go edit it, maybe that is what you mean? <water> i'll check <Tril> just type the name first, then you can add links later <water> oic <water> implementations have separate review entries <extrasolar> oh yeah, I noticed that some of the text on the site is GPLed... have you considered the GNU Documentation License? <Tril> that too <water> how do i edit an existing review blurb? <Tril> water: can't, yet :) <water> bad :( <Tril> water: well, you can, if you know SQL <water> oh <water> mmm not worth it <water> es: yeah we could shift to GDL <Tril> just wait until I add that, or if it's important, I'll change it in SQL <water> it's not vital just yet <water> since this is a young db <extrasolar> heh, just curious <Tril> Fare would probably want to make a final decision on the license of the page <Tril> send him an email or something <water> tril: when you add or edit, the next page shown should be more useful <Tril> I'm working on that 09:30pm <Tril> as we speak:) <water> ok <water> this is pretty nice <Tril> thanks -:- _Gadget_ [Inspector@tc3-06.blm.bluemarble.net] has joined #tunes <Tril> hi Gadget! <ult> hmm <_Gadget_> hey <I440r> gadget :) <_Gadget_> hey dood :P <water> thx tril -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) <Tril> did you see that one? :) <water> of course <Tril> I'll make it refresh later <water> hm <water> some of the old review entries are marked up and categorized <water> what do you suggest? <Tril> anyone else want to try? <ult> try what? <Tril> Anyone want to be a beta tester for maintaining the review project <ult> sure <water> hm <water> the review idea we were considering would be seamlessly integrated with the glossary to a certain extent <water> since you should be able to review categories or features of PLs or OSs <water> which are more like glossary entries than concrete reviews <water> although.... maybe this format could work for those <Tril> It's semi-extensible... I should be able to add "Features" later, if some useful ones are thought of. <Tril> that was in the plan :) <water> ok <Tril> notice how an entry can be in more than one category? :) <water> i didn't actually <Tril> when you added it it was a multi-select menu <water> ic <Tril> So later there could be many more categories... <water> hm <water> i can't get into zope from the front page 09:40pm <Tril> it's extensible in other ways too <water> it <water> oops <Tril> zope.tunes.org not linked from www.tunes.org you mean? <water> yes <water> it asks for a un/pw <water> and mine doesn't work <Tril> what? <Tril> hold on I'll look <water> starting at zope.*, select review, then categories <water> at cats, you get a popup for the un/pw <Tril> I didn't <Tril> exited my browser, so I was logged out <Tril> I haven't had a problem. <ult> how can i edit the DB by hand <Tril> water: are you logged in as water, and it lets you edit, but not view regularly? <Tril> ult: at bespin, type psql review <water> yep <Tril> you need to know SQL <ult> i do <ult> quite well ;) <Tril> it <ult> FATAL 1: SetUserId: user 'ultima' is not in 'pg_shadow' <Tril> it is postgresql <Tril> haha <ult> Not PSQL though <ult> what username? <ult> root? <Tril> no, I need to make one for you silly <Tril> hold on <ult> ok ;) <Tril> try it now -:- SignOff billh: #TUNES (BitchX-1.0c16 -- just do it.) <Tril> actually... you may not have permission to review yet <water> heh <water> not have permission to look at it? <water> hm now it works <Tril> water: I was talking to ultima..sidetracked from your prob. <Tril> water: You should be able to do anything that an anonymous user (not logged in) can. <water> yeah i think it was a random ie5 error <water> it's going to take a while to port review at this rate :) <Tril> water: find helpers! <ult> hmm <water> give out my password? :P <Tril> No.. I'll create more users <water> Tril: sounds like News/Email announcement to me :) <Tril> well, is it ready yet? <water> it works, doesn't it? <ult> it works <ult> i'd like to see more features <water> besides, this is an internal piece of software <ult> namely deletion <water> yes deletion would help <water> and editing text blurbs, but i already mentioned that ;) 09:50pm <Tril> I know you want to ddelete the random garbage I put in :) <Tril> water: no, there definitely is a problem with the categories page. <water> oh ok <ult> uh <ult> hmm <_Gadget_> laters <ult> Tril: It might not be a bad idea to have implementations have a direct link to the projects "home" if there is one -:- SignOff _Gadget_: #TUNES (The cheese stands alone.) <Tril> ult: You can add a link to an implementation for exactly that purpose <ult> it would also be nice if things could share implementations <Tril> ult: I guess we could have an "order" to the links but for now there is no order, so the "official" homepage should just be the first one you add <ult> without of course editing the DB by hand ;) <Tril> ult: Why do you want to share implementations? <Tril> give an example <ult> because I want a "generic" Lisp entry that gives a brief overview for example <ult> then specific entries for the dialects <water> yeah scheme is a lisp <Tril> There is no place for language families if that is what you mean <water> or any other lisp that is not just a cl <Tril> That would go in categories, which water asked about already and is for the future * ult/#tunes nods <Tril> okay, good <ult> ok <ult> so for now we shall skip catagories 10:00pm <ult> Except Lisp is ther ebut who cares <ult> we need guidelines for review items <ult> what should and should not be in there <ult> what is appropriate for implementations or catagories ;) * water/#tunes and eihrul are privately hammering out slate stuff <Tril> hey, who's adding categories? <ult> Heh I added Lisp just for fun <Tril> I am glad everyone knows what anchor text is <Tril> ok, at least water -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) <ult> Er <ult> I don't? ;) <Tril> I thought maybe thats why you didnt add any links.. <water> the "powered by zope" logo keeps reloading every god damned time :) <Tril> <a href="url">anchor text here</a> :-) <ult> I added implementations <ult> but <ult> i'm reading at the moment <Tril> it reloads?? <ult> so i'm not exactly playing with review a lot ;) <water> ya its not getting cached <Tril> it's on zope.org, I can't control it :) <water> heh <Tril> I think the license says I have to keep the logo there, maybe I'll check someday -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-230.s230.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <Tril> Well, for now, I have figured out (at least in netscape) if you get the Authorization question after you logged in, just hit cancel and then reload and it should work <ult> uh <ult> is Zope GPL? <ult> I thought it was <Tril> no, it's ZPL <ult> mm ok * ult/#tunes watches his HDD go to sleep again <Tril> ok, actually I forget <Tril> yes I was right, Zope Public License <Tril> "While it is not a license violation to remove this button, it is requested that the attribution remain." 10:10pm <Tril> whatever!!! I always am unsure of licenses that put things that are optional in them. Like, "Do whatever you want with this software but please donate money" or something -:- _Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes 10:20pm <extrasolar> Do you beleive that Slate can be implemented efficiently? Like compared to, lets say, C++. The language seems to be very abstract. <water> yes <ult> with a good optimizing compiler slate could be speedy <water> have you read about Self? <extrasolar> no <extrasolar> I will, though <extrasolar> ult: okay <_Luke> if something's actually used, people will always figure out a way to make it fast :) <_Luke> windows 95 notwithstanding. <_Luke> (morning all :)) <water> re <extrasolar> it seems that if the entire OS relies upon a language, the language should be able to handle simulations, complex calculation, 3D graphics, etc. things that require that kind of performance <water> you can do that with a dynamic and untyped language <extrasolar> or would there be libraries written in the LLL that are called from the HLL? 10:30pm <water> basically, you can compile the code for specialized datatypes <water> and keep 2 versions <water> one for the abstract case, one for the particular concrete one you know will show up -:- SignOff _Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _Luke[203.46.39.102]) <water> if you need the optimization in an absolute sense, you define a context where the low-level representations are fixed <water> and use the meta-level to make sure the optimized versions of the code are automatically used <extrasolar> okay, so like static typing only when you needed it <water> ya <water> sorry, gotta work stuff out with eihrul <extrasolar> later <water> ok <extrasolar> bye all, nice talking -:- SignOff extrasolar: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) <Tril> hmm, even though I made category a multi-select box... <Tril> I don't think it will work if you pick more than one :) * Tril/#tunes makes it single select for now <water> oh 10:40pm <water> god damn, this is a tough language to build <water> too many odd concepts 10:50pm -:- _Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes <water> re <water> say... didn't ult volunteer to take over review some time ago? :) <Tril> then he lost his disk <water> his disk? <Tril> he had all his work on the review db on a disk, he lost it, so he gave up <Tril> and didnt tell us for a while <water> :P <water> a few choice words come to mind <Tril> since he is here I guess he can correct the story if I am inaccurate <water> i doubt you're wrong <water> wow if that's true, i doubt i'll ever consider him the same way again <Tril> ok, I added some "back to..." buttons to make editing more convenient <Tril> I'm going to call it a night <Tril> should I post the list first? <water> sure 11:00pm <Tril> sent <water> cool thx <Tril> okay, see you later <water> yep cya -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (l8r) 11:20pm -:- extrasolar [extrasolar@client556.sedona.net] has joined #tunes <water> re <extrasolar> hello, yet again! 11:30pm -:- Downix [plady@pi.dune.net] has joined #tunes <Downix> Hello all. <water> hey <Downix> I now know what lag means <water> you missed Tril <water> why is that? <Downix> Right now I'm lucky to bne online at all <Downix> VIC-20 saves the day <water> heh <Downix> surfing the net at all of 300 baud <water> woohoo! <water> you can't get a 14.4 modem for it? <Downix> man, makes me back..... <Downix> Hell no, the CPU can't process beyond 2400 baud <water> heh <water> i've heard people have gone online with apple ][s and 14.4 modems <Downix> but, It's alive!!!!!! <Downix> actually you can, the problem is the VIC-20's serial port is locked at 2400 baud <Downix> if you used the printer port you should be fully capable of 14.4 or even 28.8 baud <water> there you go <extrasolar> VIC...Commodore? <Downix> but, this is a serial-port VICmodem <water> sounds like a hw project :) <Downix> yes extrasolar, a 1981 Commodore VIC-20 <ult> ~~ 11:40pm <Downix> water: I'm using KERMIT to transfer files to mty freshly installed Linux system (transferred through the printer port) <extrasolar> heh, before my time :) <water> lol <water> linux on vic20? <ult> well <Downix> this is one majorly hack job, but man it's working <ult> I've irc'd off of a graphing calculator <Downix> no, the linux is on my Cyrix 6x86 box which the VIC-20 is a terminal for <ult> (hp48, they have a rs232 port, hook it to a modem and I wrote a little RPL dumb tty) <water> ah <water> so you're bootstrapping from the vic20, ok * ult/#tunes ponders <ult> hey Downix do you know the wiring of the C64 serial cables? <Downix> ult: not off-hand <ult> hmm <ult> it's not straight through is it/ <ult> (Do I need to find and cross any wires?) <Downix> duno * Downix/#tunes is ubergeek right now! <Downix> ullt: beluieve so <ult> heh <ult> yeah i figured i'd at least need to "null-modem" the cable * water/#tunes -> afk <Downix> come on BitchX.... <Downix> I need to find a mail program for Linux that filters as well as Eudora did, and which can interpret HTML mail on the fly <water> doesn't gnome have an outlook clone? <Downix> hmm, never used it, but I have it <Downix> let me try it out <Downix> nevermind, I only have the KDE e-mail, not GNOME <Downix> which is stupid, since the OS came with GNOME as default <water> of course the functionality varies greatly on the version <water> oh 11:50pm <Downix> looking at the GNOME home[page <Downix> mayube I should just apt-get <Downix> and sit here for days.... <Downix> weeks <Downix> months <water> heh <Downix> (this is a 300 baud modem remember) <water> with no ftp client with resume capability ;) <Downix> right <Downix> aarrgghh! <Downix> I need if.h to compile bitchX <extrasolar> you guys mean Evolution? I didn't think that was very functional yet... <water> iow it would be impossible without being able to dl it onto another account remotely, break it up into small pieces there, and then dl'ing those pieces one by one :) <Downix> is that the same as if_inet6.h ? <Downix> nevermind, found it <Downix> found a way to convert my eudora mail files into standard mail files too, not bad <Downix> how hard is it to set up fetchmail/sendmail? <water> hehe <water> for basic purposes? not much <Downix> I have not managed to sucessfuly set up sendmail since 1994 <Downix> never tried fetchmail <Downix> need to set up the filters I need (mostly to sort out mailing list crap) <Downix> time to re-learn everything, Windows made me tsoft [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0611 IRC log ended Sun Jun 11 00:00:01 2000

IRC log started Sat Jun 10 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0610 -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has left #Tunes [] -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- billh [billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff billh: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from fastlane.openprojects.net [03:40am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net fastlane.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _Luke[203.46.39.102]) -:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp1.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp93.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-5.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey eihrul hey 09:50am now that i've got the central behavior of slate down to a stack machine semantics, that should equal a substantial part of the spec i'll just have to assemble a tiny slate environment that supports the bottom-up coding i've been trying to work out assemble means plan out or code? code on paper :) since there is no implementation rather, code on computer or at least describe it really it basically amounts to figuring out how to make all the default traits for ":"s and "^"s and such pldi is really a good book although i don't see that it covered forth anywhere :/ nope there it is.... one page summary ;) -:- extrasolar [extrasolar@client1109.sedona.net] has joined #tunes hello hi. hm a visitor from far away :) what brings you to this humble irc channel, extrasolar? :) 10:00am i was looking into the Tunes project, trying to understand it ok sorry, I had to go eat some breakfast -:- sysphlus [sysphlus@fppm4-30.ircc.net] has joined #tunes hi sys oh heh -:- sysphlus is now known as clintonr ok that makes it a little more clear :) the tunes website has a wealth of information... yeah i used to use it for research when i wasn't with tunes i've got to go ok later, perhaps -:- SignOff extrasolar: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) sure -:- clintonr [sysphlus@fppm4-30.ircc.net] has left #tunes [] 10:20am * water/#tunes revises the online slate tutorial file with new syntax and no change in form the form needs to get changed, and i've got a separate copy that i'm doing that in for now, though, chk out http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html * coreyr/#tunes looks. brb n/m damn it, i forgot to omit '/' so the text is outdated? hm it's only left in the explanations sort of anything discussing syntax is getting re-written kay 10:40am this is not a simple language to explain... i doubt most people can relate to a language where every word moves you through namespaces it seems to unify everything better than most langs yeah, but from a tutorial perspective, it's not something you can just introduce non-chalantly although i'm sure as hell gonna try do you think people will be able to write really bad code? of course they will you can write bad code in any language the only thing stopping you is an environment.... the tunes principle is that you extend the language to provide the right environment at the right time/place 10:50am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) should the slate tutorial include an explanation of the stack in order to clarify syntax? yes ok explain everything you think trivial i need to make drawings yes you do. :) 11:00am -:- _Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes at what point, though? i'm really wondering in what order i should introduce concepts anyone got suggestions? thats the problem with all textbooks/tutorials maybe you should node the concepts. :) with suggested tracks :P ok so the base concepts are there and you build from it maybe, but describing slate as stack-based will turn off all of the forth-haters n/m you can't please everybody :) cant please anyone but yourself :P and thats an art * water/#tunes opens a diktuon window -:- ult [ult@user-38lcc5p.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes ult dood erm 11:10am -:- SignOff smklsmkl: #TUNES (No windows for this server) hm i'll have a nodified tutorial up in a bit and i'll put the url in the topic yup "yup"? is that an answer to a question? :) oh yeah and the new tutorial will be a real tutorial, not faq'ish that was an affirmation that i am listening ic 2 diktuon windows are pretty useful one for "new", the other for "edit" 11:50am have 2 open or those are the only parts that work? having two open :) -:- lmaxson [lmaxson@adsl-63-194-24-207.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes hows that your writing going? check the tutorial namespace 12:00pm -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Programming Language Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial i'm still putting together the concept nodes for part 2, but part 1 is up and revised nicely -:- lmaxson [lmaxson@adsl-63-194-24-207.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net] has left #tunes [] bye bye :) 12:10pm -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from zsoldos.openprojects.net [12:10pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net zsoldos.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes hm yep naming some of these nodes is a trcky thing yeah its the way urls are that make it a pain maybe you could replace the link text with the of the node * I440r/#tunes is away: shooting <coreyr> i was thinking of <coreyr> {/path/node:word} <water> ah <coreyr> where word is what you want displayed. :) <water> yes that is nice <coreyr> where /path/ could be relative <coreyr> and word option <coreyr> -al <water> that's extra stuff <water> having the word be optional makes it less systematic and more prone to errors when trying to move things around <coreyr> i meant if it doesnt have word it just uses node <water> i know <coreyr> so word is explicit <water> unless you already have code that handles the feature, i don't care 12:30pm <water> one way or another, i'll have to adapt what i've written to whatever you provide for the long run -:- SignOff _Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _Luke[203.46.39.102]) 12:40pm -:- smoke is now known as zarkk * water/#tunes gets ready to post to mlists about slate -:- extrasolar [extrasolar@client1109.sedona.net] has joined #Tunes <water> re <extrasolar> hello, again * extrasolar/#Tunes reads about "Slate" <water> there's new stuff, btw <water> mostly syntactical, but it makes the language much simpler to grok <extrasolar> heh, I don't even know about the old stuff... I am just trying to figure out what Slate *is*...a programming language it appears <water> yes <water> although it's also an environment :) <water> the object system is a kind of file system <water> not necessarily a hierarchy, but that's what we're building for now <extrasolar> hmm... you mean something like: some_file.delete() <water> picture a web, with the nodes being objects and the directed edges being slots of the object <water> yes, roughly <water> so in slate i would say "some_file delete" 01:30pm <extrasolar> ah, like smalltalk <water> kinda <water> actually the syntax is... <water> "some_file delete ^.." <water> the two dots on the end pull you back from the delete object into the original, and cause the code to execute <water> the caret is "result".... it's the handle for getting "delete" to execute <water> the caret is also an object :) <extrasolar> then wouldn't you need more dots to pull you out of the carrot? <water> damn it, i still don't have the hang of it. that was supposed to be three dots, not two <water> yep :) <extrasolar> heh :) <water> the language also runs a bit like forth.... you can run expressions over lines <water> so if you forgot a dot on the end, you would know immediately because you'd still be in the "some_file" namespace <water> and you could just type "." to make the whole thing happen <water> keep in mind, all of this is very newly worked out <water> s/new/recent/ <coreyr> like by the hour. :) <water> heh <water> no, by the day :P <water> but it works very nicely so far * extrasolar/#Tunes is still trying to figure out how to work the web page... does it require a graphical browser to make sense or something? <coreyr> eihrul needs to get hackin on slate.lisp <water> es: which web page? <extrasolar> the one in the topic <coreyr> extrasolar: switch nodespace to tutorial <coreyr> then select different nodes with the nodes link on the bottom <coreyr> the nodes are supposed to link together <water> there's also the old docs <coreyr> mea culpa. -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Slate Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial <water> damn that's a long topic -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Slate Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial <extrasolar> "unification of object-oriented and <extrasolar> functional ideas" <-- sounds like it could get ugly <water> heh <water> i've been working on that for months.... what you saw is part of the result 01:40pm <water> the other part is the stuff for the type system and the stuff for object identity control <water> es: the majority of the info on slate is on the semantics page on the old site <extrasolar> I'm perusing the page http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html now <water> ok <extrasolar> so, is Tunes really going to be developed or is only going to be designed? <coreyr> heh * extrasolar/#Tunes hopes that came out right <water> we want this thing very badly.... how's that? <coreyr> extrasolar: i think water's work on slate is a step forward <extrasolar> I'm sorry, I said that wrong. <water> anything's a step forward from the tunes site stuff <coreyr> Archive <coreyr> misfire. <water> es: so what did you mean? <water> heh 01:50pm <extrasolar> well, you need kernal hackers for a kernal, and compiler people for a compiler, and windowing people for a windowing system... do you have all the needed specialties? <water> btw, you should know that the slate semantics idea started back in '95 <extrasolar> thats more or less what I meant, I think <coreyr> extrasolar: hmm. <water> we have a few people who can handle the necessities <water> the problem has been that we have had no HLL that we could say would work for Tunes <water> i think if we develop the HLL, people will come <coreyr> isnt that what lmaxson is working on? :) <water> besides, ordinary kernel hackers won't do <water> :P <ult> extrasolar you can't spell. <water> yeah "kernel" doesn't have an "a" in it <extrasolar> whoops <ult> unless your talking about Amigas <ult> er C64 <ult> er <ult> One of em had a kernal :) <water> heh <water> kernels suck <water> but that's just my tunes opinion <extrasolar> so you have the talent to develop a Slate compiler? or is it interpreter? <water> there are two, right now <water> slate.lisp is an interpreter <water> eihrul's been working on the dynamic compiler back-end <water> afaik he's waiting for a complete spec on slate from me <ult> haha <water> and of course, we also have trolls here to keep us entertained :P <extrasolar> sorry for my misunderstanding <water> no worries <ult> water <coreyr> ult <ult> you've flamebaited a lot of people. <water> what's your point? :) 02:00pm <extrasolar> is there any example code of the Slate? <water> ok eihrul seems to agree to updating slate.lisp <water> http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html <coreyr> is he now? <water> dunno <coreyr> i think it would be nice for a web->slate.lisp gateway <water> so make one ;) <water> es: you looking at the old tutorial? <eihrul> water: if you want a stand-alone slate.lisp binary, lemme know <water> hm <eihrul> well, won't be slate.lisp anymore, but :) <ult> eihrul?? <ult> slate.lisp binary? <water> maybe <ult> did you pirate ACL or something? :) <eihrul> you know i did... with my 1337 p1r4t3 sk1llz <coreyr> heh <extrasolar> water: I am looking at the URL you just gave me <water> ok -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-93.s93.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <water> re <extrasolar> what's a slot <hcf> re who? <extrasolar> ? <water> re hcf <hcf> re water <coreyr> re HCF <water> slots are the elements of objects <water> like names within namespaces <water> hcf: who are you, anyway? :) <extrasolar> like methods? <water> yes <extrasolar> ah.. <coreyr> but they are objects themselves <water> but slots can point to things they don't "contain" <water> like the "<" slot 02:10pm <extrasolar> Do any of you notice the analogy Unix : C :: Tunes : Slate ? <water> :) <ult> What is K? <ult> extrasolar: Some day you really ought to read the tunes.org website ;) <extrasolar> ult: I have been... why? <water> hm <water> APL -> J -> K <water> the latter two are much more user-friendly than the former <water> and they have some interesting concepts * water/#tunes looks on the tunes review page <water> apl isn't even there <water> we need to get this nodified so updating crap like this is trivial <water> or, rather, distributable ;) <water> oh wait, apl and k are both mentioned, not reviewed 02:20pm <water> hm this is what you get when you make one big flat html document and it expands to 130kb <water> i wonder what kind of system Tril is putting together? <coreyr> yeah <water> i'm mailing tril to ask <coreyr> i need to talk to him about an account too. * coreyr/#tunes mails too. <coreyr> dem@ right? <water> ya <coreyr> @what.dom ? <water> heh <water> tunes.org :P <coreyr> just makin sure. :) <ult> What is tril making? <water> or bespin.dhs.org or bespin.cx <ult> The review thing? <water> the database <water> for review <coreyr> i think it would be better in nodes <water> whichever <coreyr> all site materal unified <coreyr> :P 02:30pm <water> the idea was that review needs to have some structure built-in <coreyr> yeah i made some changes to the diktuon idea that i think would cover that <ult> well it certainly needs to be indexable and searchable <water> not necessarily free-form html <water> ult: quite true <ult> I'd like to see lots of embedded links to research papers and the likes in there <hcf> needs updates too <ult> Because there seems to be a lot of crap on RI/Cora <water> yep <ult> And...another thing...it would be very nice if it was easy to add/modify entries <water> i can do that as long as the interface is simple <ult> via the web or something <coreyr> ult: diktuon. <ult> Perhaps a web program that mails it to review@ and adds it to the DB :) <water> yeah, ult, take a look at diktuon <coreyr> its a mess right now <water> more incentive for you to clean it up ;) <coreyr> argh <coreyr> yeah ok. <water> well, at least to build stuff so other people *can* clean it up <coreyr> chgrp tuneser diktuon/ <coreyr> :P <water> heh <coreyr> man tril emails back fast <water> i mean namespaces, themes, and such <water> cool, he's online then <water> i invited him to talk here <ult> hmm <ult> ok, diktuon looks nifty. <water> check olddata listing <coreyr> most of whats making it unusable is the regexp's for the linking <water> almost everything's there but review <coreyr> and no one on #php (opn and efnet) know anything <water> heh <ult> yer uh <ult> not writing diktuon in php are you <coreyr> ugh yeah <coreyr> chaning to perl asap <coreyr> +G <water> ult: btw, do you have a better system to suggest? 02:40pm <coreyr> (and time to commit?) :) <water> heh <ult> well <ult> what if you used cl-httpd <ult> and wrote the entire sucker in Lisp <ult> and kept all of the entries as real Lisp objects in the core <water> none of us are cl'ers <ult> let virtual memory handle that <water> xcept maybe you ;) * ult/#Tunes has just wanted to see a good real application of some of cl-httpds features <coreyr> heh <extrasolar> cl == common lisp? <water> yep <ult> diktuon doesn't sound too complex though <water> where's that todo list? <water> http://diktuon.arrow.cx/show.php?ns=olddata&name=diktuon <water> that's it <ult> what kind of db are you using? 02:50pm <hcf> pgsql <ult> ugh * ult/#Tunes would use plain text for the entries themselves, and generate a "concordance" (word reference count) for searching <ult> directories define namespaces, and if the entries were multiple-file you could easily manage a lot of stuff <ult> *and* it's very easy to backup/restore/edit by hand, and quite a bit more portable... <ult> not to mention not nearly as syntactically limiting as a SQL database, because you don't have any kind of fixed fields, and you don't have to hack around <water> yes, but will you build it? <ult> hmm, I do have a lot of free time ;) <hcf> <fare> feel free </fare> <ult> bbl -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) <water> heh <water> corey: what did tril say? <water> forget it, bbiaf 03:00pm <extrasolar> Slate is the same as the HLL on the Tunes site, right? <coreyr> hmm <Fare> ought to be <coreyr> water: he didnt respond <extrasolar> Okay, then what is the HLL? <coreyr> water: after he asked me if it was for tunes <extrasolar> anybody? <coreyr> extrasolar: slate is the candidate for it, if it satisfies the requirements. <extrasolar> hmmm... <extrasolar> are there other candidates? 03:10pm <Fare> the HLL currently is but a dream <Fare> no candidate that isn't far behind <extrasolar> you speak in poetry -:- smklsmkl [sami@ppp1.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes <water> hm 03:20pm <extrasolar> hm <water> epic poetry, actually <water> just read the html Fare writes <extrasolar> Well, I started to read "Why a New OS?" ... <Fare> ouch <smklsmkl> Fare: can you op my bots at #lambda? <smklsmkl> they failed after three months ... looks like my univ network was down almost all the day <extrasolar> Fare: I hope I didn't say anything that brought offence <coreyr> extrasolar: dont be so apologetic. <coreyr> ill tell you when its your fault. :) <extrasolar> coreyr: good, because most of the time I can't tell 03:30pm <extrasolar> what is the LLL? C? <water> no, it's a framework for describing tunes implementations <extrasolar> which language have you chosen for LLL? <water> hm <water> forth or joy i suppose <extrasolar> oh... <Fare> extrasolar: I hope _I_ didn't say anything too silly in that article <Fare> should be revised <Fare> most of it is a messy draft <hcf> Fare: then revise it 03:40pm <extrasolar> Far�: I guess I never thought of computers at such a high level... I still don't know why another OS? <extrasolar> Far�: but I didn't read the whole paper <extrasolar> (you do have an accent on the 'e', right?) <extrasolar> whao, you wrote that *today* <water> hm? <water> wrote what? 03:50pm -:- SignOff zarkk: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes <Fare> extra: because current OSes are not _expressive_ enough <Fare> yes I have an accent, but irc ain't 8-bit clean <extrasolar> well, I have to do...nice talking <extrasolar> s/do/go -:- SignOff extrasolar: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) <smklsmkl> irc has "support" for �, � and � though 04:00pm <coreyr> which looks like little sigma, big sigma and divide sign to me <water> heh <smklsmkl> your font is not ISO 8859-1 compliant then * coreyr/#tunes shrugs. <smklsmkl> anyway [ and {, ] and } and | and \ are equal in irc because of them <coreyr> one more reason for tunes <hcf> icac, http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/projects/forth.html http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/projects/backends.html <smklsmkl> what is the significance of "ac" in that URL? <water> hm thx 04:10pm -:- SignOff coreyr: #TUNES (brb.) -:- coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smklsmkl: #TUNES (back tomorrow) -:- billh [billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com] has joined #tunes <billh> Hello. <water> hey <coreyr> re BILLH <billh> What's up ? <water> putting together new slate docs, here <water> or at least i *was* 04:40pm * Fare/#Tunes is back <water> hm <billh> Yeah, getting sick of using Linux over here. ;-) <billh> I'm primarily a FreeBSD user now since I can't stand various performance issues with Linux. <billh> This Virtual Memory/IO thing that's been going on has been completely out of control in Linux. <billh> Plus the Ports collection has allowed me to easil upgrade my box if I have enough disk space. <coreyr> unless the port is out of date. <coreyr> or there is no port <coreyr> :P <coreyr> but besides that, id take ports over rpm or deb anyday 04:50pm <hcf> ok, take *bsd vs linux elsewhere <water> like #{} :) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ <coreyr> re Tril <Tril> hello... <Tril> Corey I guess you are different corey than I know, since you said I don't know you? <water> hey <water> ltns <coreyr> ive never spoken with you directly i dont think. <water> tril: so what are you using right now to put together the tunes web db? <Tril> ok, there's another Corey who has hung around the tunes project for a long time. <Tril> water, I'm working in Zope, PostgreSQL and almost done <Tril> It's not the "tunes web" it's just for part of Review right now <Tril> Will your web page support multiple ways of viewing the data? <water> oh ok <water> http://diktuon.arrow.cx <water> ours is less db-oriented <water> but then we haven't addressed review at all <water> hm <water> diktuon's pretty slow right now for some reason <coreyr> ? <coreyr> instant for me. :) <water> dunno, it took 45 sec to load here <water> heh lag time then <water> Tril: so we're putting together something to handle recursive namespaces and small html nodes <Tril> lag is probably due to having ONE nameserver for arrow.cx, and it's on a slow link.. <water> for things like the glossary and specs <water> yes 05:00pm * billh/#tunes reads a discussion on Linux-kernel about GNOME and GUI techologies. <coreyr> my link would be fast enough if it werent for napster or gnutella. :P <water> arrow.cx doesn't hold much right now besides diktuon <coreyr> ever since the rabble got ahold of them, its been really bad. <coreyr> water: i do have another nameserver. <water> ok * water/#tunes is not web-savvy <billh> water Don't worry, most of the folks here aren't web savvy either. <Tril> what server is diktuon running on? <coreyr> my box <Tril> hmm, same as the nameserver I see <Tril> what connection ? <coreyr> {}? <Tril> I'm getting 400 ping to it.. 56K modem? <coreyr> not entirely sure, its a college apartment complex with ethernet each room. <coreyr> supports 2500 students <Tril> what country? <coreyr> florida, us <Tril> maybe it's just since you're downloading.. <Tril> or uploading or whatever <water> napping <Tril> oh you aren't running it yourself, just others in your apt? <coreyr> no its right in front of me <coreyr> it appears exceptionally bad right now <coreyr> hmm <water> anyway, Tril, we were wondering how feasible it would be to combine the efforts here <coreyr> yeah, have you anything visible? <water> either if what you're doing can use what content we've ported (like the glossary) or if the two can be made inter-operable or what <coreyr> Tril: how exactly does you thing work? <water> how many nodes do we have now? 220? <coreyr> yeah <Tril> ... <Tril> i dont want to give out access until it's done.. the permissions aren't set yet 05:10pm <Tril> I'd be glad to explain.. <coreyr> go ahead <Tril> do you know about Zope? <coreyr> yeah <Tril> I'm using the PostgreSQL database adapter. I designed an SQL database for certain parts of Review, namely OSes/LAnguages/VMs <Tril> I'm making zope interface to add new review entries right now <water> hm <Fare> Tril! <water> how simple would it be to adapt what you make into something useful for the whole site? <Tril> Well, I can adapt my zope knowledge I have learned into something for the whole site. It's possible.. first I'm just focusing on this.. <water> hm <Tril> It requires a good amount of preparation for the structure, though. I think a structure-less system is useful, too <Tril> hello, Fare... <water> so what can we do to put all this together? * coreyr/#tunes will help <billh> water What are you doing ? <Tril> The first thing I thought of that would be useful is if we could share the database of off-site links. <billh> building a manual for a techology you're developing ? <water> i really hate that word <billh> "technology" ? <water> yes <billh> I like it. ;-) <water> anyway <coreyr> techne logos <Tril> If you guys get the postgres module for PHP you can start right away.. <water> we were considering a pre-processor that would generate the urls for syntax like {OS/Mach} <coreyr> Tril: already got it <billh> water Why's that ? unified Plan-ish namespaces ? <Tril> water: wha? <billh> ...plan8-ish...? <billh> ...plan9-ish...? <billh> Shit... <water> that way the only url on the site to maintain would be at one location <Fare> "unified" ? <water> bill: shush <Tril> water: I assume you are talking about your internal diktuon URLs? <water> yes <Tril> I was talking about external links. <Fare> how are they unified? -:- morton [unknown@AC855ED1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #tunes <water> the external links would only be on one node, though <water> the review node <water> everything else would point to that node <Tril> water: so you can't embed external links in an arbitrary place in the web? <Tril> I thought it was supposed to be a free-form space? <coreyr> you can do anything you want <water> yes you can <billh> .quit 05:20pm -:- SignOff billh: #TUNES (BitchX: more nutritious than a six-pack.) * coreyr/#tunes makes tril an account on diktuon. <Tril> coreyr: http://tunes.org/poll.html <Tril> become a tunes member, then get a bespin account <morton> i have a question about forth. <hcf> morton: ask it in #forth <water> diktuon already inlines(?) the node as text into the page and renders it as html <morton> if all the simple words such as +, dup, etc are defined as blocks of code with push/pop sequences + 2 jmps, isn't that a bit inefficient? <water> but naturally it's much simpler if one doesn't have to maintain url's in nodes besides review nodes <Tril> coreyr: a member of the philosophy that "can always edit it later" ,eh? <coreyr> no, i just dont care to fill out a resume right now. :) <Tril> well, you can :) * water/#tunes still doesn't want to be listed as a tunes member <Tril> water: do you use the water@tunes.org email address? <water> yes <Tril> So you want to "be" a member, just not be listed? <water> something like that <water> i just didn't like seeing my name next to all of those other tunes "members" who only pay lip service to it <water> anyway <water> how soon will your work be done, Tril? <Tril> hopefully next day or two for when I can let people try it out <water> ok <water> like i said, we have 220 nodes without a decent interface to the public <water> and we stopped porting the tunes site mostly because of the limitations of the tools <Tril> :( <Tril> Now you see why the site is in disarray, we need tunes to fix it. 05:30pm <water> bah! <water> screw that <Tril> Or we can just do lots of work and fix it anyway <water> well, let hcf and coreyr where they can help you <water> s/where/know where/ <water> Right Now :) <Tril> what do you mean you stopped porting the tunes site? are you giving up on diktuon? Or is it to be used for brainstorming, stuff other than the tunes site info? <water> no, diktuon was turning out to not support what we thought it could <coreyr> well it can <Tril> brb <water> but <coreyr> it just not as easy as i anticipated. :) -:- SignOff morton: #TUNES (morton has no reason) <water> did he ever go to #forth? <hcf> yeah <water> oh good <hcf> and TheBlueWizard talk'd to him <Tril> back <water> hm <water> so what's the .plan then? <Tril> tel lme how to use my dikt account now and I'll look at it <water> coreyr? <coreyr> takin care of it <water> ok 05:40pm -:- `water [water@tnt-9-119.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-5.tscnet.net]) -:- `water is now known as water <Tril> laggg <coreyr> im going to complain on monday, this is absurd. <Tril> how do I make a line break <coreyr> <br> <coreyr> :) <water> heh <Tril> you need to set magic_quotes_gpc and magic_quotes_runtime to Off in php3.ini, so that editing something with quotes doesnt infinitely increase backslashes -:- ult [ult@user-38lcdmm.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes 05:50pm <coreyr> ok <coreyr> and btw, its php4 <Tril> well, i hope it has a similar option :) <coreyr> have you used phps <coreyr> regex? <Tril> I don'tthink so. <Tril> coreyr I assume you have looked at variants on Wiki <Tril> because that's exactly what you're trying to write- a variant of Wiki <water> no <water> well, close <water> zwiki has something called wikipaths that they are looking at <hcf> wiki has its own "format" <water> but wiki's are totally amorphous <Tril> hcf: format? I don't think so <Tril> so are inter-node links just not working yet? <coreyr> yeah <Tril> still deciding how they will work? <coreyr> and nothing is cleaned up <coreyr> no <coreyr> im having problems implementing them <coreyr> regex. :) <hcf> coreyr: specifically, pcre <coreyr> well pcre and posix on php 06:00pm -:- hcf_ [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[207-172-225-93.s93.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf <Tril> try some other channel? :-) <water> hm? <coreyr> oh i did <coreyr> no one was of aid <coreyr> it wasnt a solicitation. :) <Tril> well, I left the dikt site it was too slow (what else is there to see?) <coreyr> sigh <coreyr> your depressing me. <Tril> you are welcome to put it on bespin. <coreyr> kay <coreyr> how fast are you? 06:10pm <Tril> 2 T1's <Tril> P150/64 ram <water> tril: corey's getting modules to fix his problem <coreyr> Tril: who do you share it with? <Tril> water: the regex problem? <water> tril: yes <Tril> coreyr: nas.com <ult> corey what is the problem? <coreyr> heh <coreyr> convert all instances of {nodespace_nodename} to <a href="show.php?ns=nodespace&name=nodename>nodename</a> <Tril> in PHP4. <coreyr> with the first one nodename, all spaces to +'s <Tril> or could you use apache ReWriteRules -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) <coreyr> Tril: how? <coreyr> its pulled from a instance in pgsql <Tril> zope uses apache rewriterules to rewrite /path/to/node in a URL into inserting a path in front, see this <Tril> RewriteRule ^/(.*) /var/www/htdocs/cgi-bin/zope/Zope.cgi/$1 [e=HTTP_CGI_AUTHORIZ <Tril> ATION:%1,t=application/x-httpd-cgi,l] <Tril> # <Tril> I assume you could put the $1 multiple places, and have a $2 <Tril> It will handle incoming URL requests.. so it could expand without the user having to see what it expanded to <Tril> (ignore the part about authorization, that lets zope handle the lookups for http Basic auth) 06:20pm <coreyr> but a nodename can have spaces <water> hm <Tril> For what I am talking about you would actually use <A HREF="{foo_bar}"> so I guess it would have to be %20 if it had spaces -:- Noop [ubiquity@dm4-150.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes <water> hi nop <Noop> Howdy. <water> what brings ya here? <Tril> What's this about switching diktuon to perl? <Noop> The desperate plea for souls to fill this channel on www.tunes.org <water> heh <water> blame Tril for that one ;) <Noop> It may be a year ol' plea, but still valid nonetheless. <Tril> Noop: there is one qualification, you have to talk about TUNES if you fill the channel <water> can we answer questions for ya? <water> Tril: give some of us OPs! <water> er... OPs rights at least <Tril> ok, i'll look into that.. hold <water> thx <water> just talk to chanserv <water> anyway <hcf> me too plz :) <water> noop: i assume that like all new people to this channel, that you have a question or two 06:30pm <coreyr> got some tunes? <water> :P <Noop> water: nothing that can't be answered on the web site, I guess. <water> oh there's plenty that can't be answered on the web site ;) <Noop> water: I'll take a moment in contemplation and see if I can't muster anything up. <water> heh don't worry about it -:- hcf was kicked off #TUNES by Tril (rejoin please) -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #TUNES 06:40pm -:- mode/#tunes [+o hcf] by ChanServ <hcf> hmm -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <Tril> Auto-op is disabled for this channel <Tril> so you have to ask for it each time <water> it's not needed <Tril> that's the way I wanted it.. <water> cool -:- mode/#tunes [+o hcf] by ChanServ <Tril> except me, it always auto-ops me since I created the channel <water> so anyway -:- mode/#tunes [-o hcf] by hcf <water> is this stuff about the db's resolved or no? -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kyle_L[cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com]) <coreyr> i dunno <coreyr> im going to continue diktuon <water> now that you have a usable regexp parser? <coreyr> i wasnt just doing it for tunes <water> well, i don't want it for just tunes either ;) <Tril> no, it's not resolved if you mean which db is going to have what in it, etc <water> yes i guess we do have that <water> however, linking from diktuon into the review db still has to be implemented <water> i'm assuming hcf or corey can do that? <Fare> seen the pliant db system? <Fare> stupid and simple <Tril> water: you mean linking into the db structure I've designed? <Fare> yet great for relatively small object graphs <water> tril: yes <Tril> well, two ways, he can either use <a href ..> and link a URL that accesses my zope stuff <Tril> or he can log into the same Postgres database and access and format it himself <coreyr> how is it stored? <water> i assume it'd just be as simple as handling the review links separately from the rest <Tril> coreyr: I'll send you the overview in email to your tunes addy (which you should forward if you want) 06:50pm <water> hm <water> Tril: how's that object/type system going? <Tril> um, I'll work on that after this review thing looks ok <water> ok, just wondering <coreyr> heh <Tril> maybe also after I catch up on tunes mlist email <water> there hasn't been much, lately <Tril> yeah, but I have not read it for a LONG time. :) <water> you're some mailing list administrator, you know that? ;) <Tril> Actually , I have been administrating it, just not reading it <Tril> I check for bounced posts and approve them if needed <water> Tunes: the orphaned project -:- SignOff Noop: #TUNES (Read error to Noop[dm4-150.slc.aros.net]: Connection reset by peer) <water> hm 07:00pm <Tril> almost there... <water> almost where? <Tril> only a couple more objects to add for this review thing. <water> cool <water> hm i may as well put my name on the members list <Tril> is it there now? <water> no not yet <water> is there a way to edit an existing members entry? <Tril> yeah, through CVS <water> :P <Tril> or asking someone to do it for you through CVS... <water> why not a db? :) <Tril> patience! <Tril> actually, I have an empty db skeleton for the members info <water> it's a shame i have to spend my work hours in M$ Access <Tril> it could be added easily to zope later <Tril> where do you work now? <water> same ship... different job <water> heh i telecommute :) <Tril> so, using a computer, unlike before? sounds better already. <Tril> you really work from off the ship? <water> yep, although they ask for some pretty tall orders to be implemented over Access <water> yes <water> you know i live in seattle now, right? <Tril> I heard you moved there, y <water> ok <Tril> don't have to go on board ever, or just rarely? <water> btw we have a mutual acquaintance now <water> a couple of days a week for now <Tril> who is it? my dad, or someone from WWU? <water> wwu <water> frank something-or-other <Tril> Schmidt? <water> yeah that's it <Tril> Schmitt actually <Tril> he's a hardware guru <water> yeah ee 07:10pm <Tril> He modified my friend's motherboard for him <ult> What? <ult> What do you mean modified? <Tril> http://www.asuscom.de/de/support/techmain/FAQ/mobo_cpu/faq034_lx_tntrew.htm <Tril> that should end with tntrew.htm I can't tell if it does <water> it does <Tril> water: so, how do you know him? <water> oh, we met online <Tril> well there is the #wcug channel <water> he's looking to move here, and just wanted to meet interesting people <Tril> a lot of WCUG'ers move to seattle. <water> no, this was a .com service... anonymous and such <coreyr> doesnt this belong in #{}? <water> true :) <water> except Tril doesn't seem to want to go ;) <Tril> no, I'll just stop talking about it :) <water> how much have you looked at slate? <Tril> I read all the web page, didn't try to understand the lisp source codew <water> the lisp source is not the thing to read <water> unless eihrul updates it to the new syntax etc 07:20pm <water> did you read my latest post on it? <Tril> on the slate list? <water> and the tunes list? :) * I440r/#tunes is back <Tril> No, I didn't. <water> i found out that the most natural syntax for slate was forth-like instead of lisp-like <water> hm you really haven't been around for a while, so there's a lot that's probably chainged since you last looked <water> it doesn't matter... the language is pretty damned simple now * water/#tunes returns to reading pldi 07:30pm <water> btw, i think the next time my ship goes out, i'm going to rewrite the arrow paper <water> and write up something for the second one <water> i forget, is there a drawing editor that outputs latex? * water/#tunes chks fm 07:40pm -:- billh [billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com] has joined #tunes <billh> Hello <Tril> hi <water> RE <water> oops <water> :) <billh> How's tunes stuff going ;-) <billh> ? <water> i think we have a working .plan for improving the website <water> that should be ready soon * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] <water> and i'm reading pldi for ideas on slate spec <hcf> water: smth here might help, http://SAL.KachinaTech.COM/index.shtml <water> k <hcf> http://gd.tuwien.ac.at:8050/E/2/IPE.html <water> yeah i was just about to look at that 07:50pm -:- extrasolar [extrasolar@client651.sedona.net] has joined #Tunes <water> re es <extrasolar> hello, again 08:00pm <extrasolar> will Tunes be multi-user? <water> it's supposed to be <extrasolar> "supposed"? is that another way of saying yes or not sure? <water> heh <water> yes * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 25 min 41 secs <Tril> the answer is yes <water> :P * extrasolar/#Tunes hates this sort of logic. <ult> Heya tril. <Tril> hi <water> sorry, but the "will tunes support feature x?" question has a pretty much automatic answer ;) <eihrul> "it's supposed to support feature x" <water> except in the case where feature x is non-tunes-like * water/#tunes pats eihrul on the head <eihrul> water: even non-tunes-like features would be supported :) 08:10pm <eihrul> that was one of the provisions of the HLL spec IIRC <water> supported, but not endorsed <eihrul> that the user can give up what he feels unnecessary <water> sure <water> but that's easy :) <ult> What if I find the HLL unnecessary :) <I440r> ult you know cvs rite ? <water> then you give up tunes <I440r> im reading the manual now and the part about rsh (.hosts) confuses me <ult> its ez <ult> nit <ult> o' <I440r> it says i shud put someuser.somehost.com in the .rhosts of the "remote machine" but it doesnt tell me where im supposed to put the .rhosts file <ult> usdhuishfiushfuishf <hcf> take cvs poop elsewhere <Tril> you dont use CVS with rsh, usually you use it with SSH <Tril> hcf :#t <I440r> cvs uses rsh. it says so in the shit im reading <I440r> hcf. take that negative attitude elsewhere <Tril> CVS_RSH=ssh (always) <ult> Tril, you can use rhs. <ult> rsh even. <Tril> you can use telnet, too, but should you? :) <ult> If you want to join in, I'll be glad to talk to anyone on #Forth, I use CVS for my source code control. <water> so anyway... <extrasolar> hmm, I always thought of multi-users capability as a design issue rather than a feature <Tril> it's an option <water> tunes *is* supposed to deal with de-centralized activity <water> so multi-user installations should be straightforward from the more general framework put into it <I440r> <water> tunes *is* supposed to deal with de-centralized activity <-- wtf is taht supposed to mean ?> <water> distributed computations etc <water> read the glossary entry for de-centralized <extrasolar> okay <water> most programming languages stick with the von neumann architecture, that's the distinction i was trying to make <ult> er <ult> water? <ult> how so? <ult> I would say a lot of them are more like the Harvard architecture <extrasolar> water: is that kind of like Plan 9's idea of file servers and CPU server (even though that is low level compared to what Tunes aspires to be, AFAICT) <water> how will tunes be de-centralized or how do programming languages sitck with the von neumann ...? <ult> Simply because of code/data sections. <water> lol <ult> :) <water> ok <water> es: hm <water> es: yes like that somewhat * water/#tunes must look at the plan9 manuals again soon <water> i definitely need to work on the slate MOP 08:20pm <extrasolar> MOP, what does that stand for? <water> abi: mop <abi> mop is Meta-Object Protocol <water> it's the set of objects used to reify how a given object works <water> like if i'm in smalltalk, the MOP for any object has a Behavior object and such like that for the given object <water> CLOS has a ridiculously detailed one <extrasolar> okay, and this protocal is used internally or for distributed computing? <water> well, it's not *that* detailed, but clos-identifiers-are-oh-so-long :) <water> oh it's not a protocol like IP is a protocol <extrasolar> ahh <water> it's a protocol in the sense that each environment or language has a given way of reifying its concepts as meta-objects <water> since lisp has different kinds of objects than, say, Java <extrasolar> reifying doesn't seem to be a word <Tril> it is now <water> it's a word <water> http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=reify <Tril> weird people use it <extrasolar> I have consulted two dictionaries trying to figure out what you are talking about <water> To regard or treat (an abstraction) as if it had concrete or material existence. <water> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <water> oops <ult> in other words <ult> make pretend :) <water> yep <extrasolar> okay, I found it now <ult> <water:#tunes> it's the set of objects used to reify how a given object works <water> simulate, emulate, interpret, .... :) <extrasolar> but not as reifying <ult> In English: It's the set of objects that emulates how a given object operates <water> yes <ult> Except it sounds cooler. <water> you can use meta-objects to change how your original objects work <ult> We don't know much here. But we know our buzzwords. Meta-object protocols, polymorphic inline caches, ... :) <water> yep :) <extrasolar> reify v : consider an abstract concept to be real <water> the nice thing is that when you change the meta-object, you don't have to change the object's source code (ideally) <extrasolar> i like the gdict definition better <water> ok <water> gdict.org? <extrasolar> no, the dictionary program that comes with GNOME <water> oh that <extrasolar> useful, it is 08:30pm <extrasolar> can someone point me to where the slate.lisp is? <ult> heh <ult> its in lee's directory <water> http://www.tunes.org/~eihrul/ <extrasolar> water: sorry for bothering you, maybe someone else can answer my questions? -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-119.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water_ [water@tnt-9-119.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- water_ is now known as water <extrasolar> which lisp implementation do I need? <water> lee says it'll work with any good cl <water> keep in mind, it's got the old syntax <ult> it will work with any good CLTL2 CL,I will vouch for that <ult> Probably CLTL1 <extrasolar> I guess I'm going to install CLISP then <ult> hmm <ult> bill maher is kinda cool. <extrasolar> bill maher? <ult> Comedian <extrasolar> ahh <extrasolar> I thought it was a lisp implementation :) <water> lol 08:40pm <water> hm gdict is online <water> yep it's mit's old dict server <water> if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me <extrasolar> slate.lisp seems kind of small for a programming language... <water> it's a toy <extrasolar> maybe I'm not used to Lisp... <water> it just interprets the very basic syntax * extrasolar/#Tunes likes toys <water> it can't even modify slot lists <extrasolar> sure, but I am in desperate need for the *feel* of the language <extrasolar> maybe that's an overstatement, but you get the idea <water> open up xterm ;) <water> or rather, run plan9 ;) <extrasolar> my assumption is that slate will be a major influence as to how Tunes will be implemented <water> well, the HLL will... whether slate is the HLL or not.... who knows <extrasolar> water: I am not following you...what does plan9 have to do with it? -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) <water> plan9 uses directory structure to a greater benefit than *nix 08:50pm <extrasolar> I consider plan9 a modern Unix * water/#tunes decides to grab the plan9 manual to remember how <water> bah <extrasolar> IMHO <water> plan9 represents one research direction for unix -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes <extrasolar> what research direction do you think unix was of? :) <water> i guess by the usual standards it's really modern <water> the whole byte-stream basis is pretty old <water> and text files and such <extrasolar> I am saying modern as in more emphasis in distributed computing than timesharing... that sort of thing <water> a modern unix would be OO to the core <water> ok <extrasolar> I don't think unix ever had the seeds of OO...If you did OO'ed Unix, I don't think you call it UNIX <water> yes, but there's nothing stopping you from taking the basic unix structure and making it more modular and based on OO code <water> and less dependant on byte streams per se <water> it would probably still be able to run *nix stuff, just like Mach can <extrasolar> well, byte streams and text files are basic components of C, which UNIX relies heavily on. That's why I made the analogy with Tunes earlier today <water> hm plan9 isn't unix compatible <water> yeah <water> but you could make a good os out of a language like hmm <water> i was going to say C++, but i think ObjC would be better <extrasolar> C++ and ObjC are both based on C, and therefore Unix <water> heh <ult> well the C syntax itself is not UNIX-specific 09:00pm <ult> Even ANSI C isn't extremely UNIX-specific -- it was defined this way. <extrasolar> no, but many OSs were inspired by UNI in some way <ult> It's when you get into extensions, OS interfaces, that everything looks like UNIX. <ult> Sockets, IPC, memory management(Well, that's ANSI, but...) <extrasolar> well things like stdin, stdout, sterr, and the arguments to main <extrasolar> yeah <water> here's a plan9 quote: <water> A number of unusual services are provided within the kernel as local file systems. These services are not limited to I/O devices such as disks. They include network devices and their associated protocols, the bitmap display and mouse, a representation of processes similar to /proc [Killian], the name/value pairs that form the `environment' passed to a new process, profiling services, and other resources. <ult> well, stdin/stdout/stderr aren't unix specific <ult> they are more console-based-OS-specific <ult> water yep and they are pretty fast too <extrasolar> ult: I would bet they were heavily inspired by UNIX <ult> well designed <extrasolar> as are most (all?) console based systems <ult> extrasolar: I disagree. I think UNIX was heavily inspired by other console based systems. <ult> :) <water> or systems w/o consoles <ult> But even those used streams for teletypes <water> right <extrasolar> heh, I read about this one system older than UNIX, it was based on pascal, I think, and had a completely menu-driven interface and no file hierarchy whatsoever <water> all the way back to Turing's machine with the infinite tape :) <water> eh? <extrasolar> I forgot what the system was called... <water> p-machine? <extrasolar> yes! <water> dude that's a bytecode virtual machine <extrasolar> yes <water> we still have those oses :) <extrasolar> why? <water> uh because we like bytecode vm's? :) <water> actually squeak now has recursive namespaces <extrasolar> no, I meant why do we still have p-machines <water> and a gui and console interface, but oh well :) <water> oh <water> intermediate code for pascal compilers :) <extrasolar> squeak is pretty cool but I can't stand its interface <water> did you try morphic? <water> btw, you can change that interface <extrasolar> no, I never heard of it <water> morphic is the squeak UI that you *don't* start up in (until 2.8) <water> which squeak did you try? 09:10pm <extrasolar> 2.7 <extrasolar> heh <water> oh well <extrasolar> it wasn't too long ago either <water> yeah 2.7 is still the public version <water> anyways... <ult> hmm <ult> water what do you mean you don't start up in <ult> are you talking about that thing with the play with me? <extrasolar> heheh :) <water> when you start the VM with the official virgin image, you're in MVC, not morphic <Tril> ok who wants to try it out <Tril> zope zope zope <water> me <water> i <water> myself <Tril> well, first, everyone can go to http://zope.tunes.org and look at the format, sort of. <Tril> it has bogus data, though :) -:- lar1 [larman@adsl-63-203-75-219.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes <water> lar: tunes zope is up <water> wow.... it looks..... practically empty <extrasolar> wouldn't that be easier with just straight html? <extrasolar> :) <Tril> no * water/#tunes goes for a test-drive * extrasolar/#Tunes thens clicks a link <water> hm <water> "Adding entry..." is not a very informative thing to show :) 09:20pm <water> Tril: does the review section get parsed as html or just added as plain-text? <lar1> water: Where? <lar1> Oh my god <lar1> Tril is here and alive! <Tril> water: not sure what you mean <water> lar: same place it ever was <Tril> Oh.. um.. yes I do <lar1> zope.tunes.org? <water> Tril: the review section of an entry <ult> UltDoc is better than Zope or Diktuon <Tril> water: well, embedded URL's should not go in the review text <water> ok <Tril> the external links are stored separately together, so they can be automatically checked... <lar1> ...Uhhh, it looks like it did months ago. Did Tril modify the underlying structure? <Tril> also, the links are separate from any review, so any review can discuss any of the links. <water> ok <Tril> lar1: nothing is "changed", but now it is almost operational <lar1> Tril: Hmm, ok <Tril> I gave water access to add info * water/#tunes is porting the Haskell entry <Tril> water: If you add an implementation, just select GPL as the license for now, even if it's not (GPL is the only option) <water> ok <water> no links for implementations? <Tril> should be able to <water> it's not in the form <Tril> you can't enter a link while you are adding it, you have to go edit it, maybe that is what you mean? <water> i'll check <Tril> just type the name first, then you can add links later <water> oic <water> implementations have separate review entries <extrasolar> oh yeah, I noticed that some of the text on the site is GPLed... have you considered the GNU Documentation License? <Tril> that too <water> how do i edit an existing review blurb? <Tril> water: can't, yet :) <water> bad :( <Tril> water: well, you can, if you know SQL <water> oh <water> mmm not worth it <water> es: yeah we could shift to GDL <Tril> just wait until I add that, or if it's important, I'll change it in SQL <water> it's not vital just yet <water> since this is a young db <extrasolar> heh, just curious <Tril> Fare would probably want to make a final decision on the license of the page <Tril> send him an email or something <water> tril: when you add or edit, the next page shown should be more useful <Tril> I'm working on that 09:30pm <Tril> as we speak:) <water> ok <water> this is pretty nice <Tril> thanks -:- _Gadget_ [Inspector@tc3-06.blm.bluemarble.net] has joined #tunes <Tril> hi Gadget! <ult> hmm <_Gadget_> hey <I440r> gadget :) <_Gadget_> hey dood :P <water> thx tril -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) <Tril> did you see that one? :) <water> of course <Tril> I'll make it refresh later <water> hm <water> some of the old review entries are marked up and categorized <water> what do you suggest? <Tril> anyone else want to try? <ult> try what? <Tril> Anyone want to be a beta tester for maintaining the review project <ult> sure <water> hm <water> the review idea we were considering would be seamlessly integrated with the glossary to a certain extent <water> since you should be able to review categories or features of PLs or OSs <water> which are more like glossary entries than concrete reviews <water> although.... maybe this format could work for those <Tril> It's semi-extensible... I should be able to add "Features" later, if some useful ones are thought of. <Tril> that was in the plan :) <water> ok <Tril> notice how an entry can be in more than one category? :) <water> i didn't actually <Tril> when you added it it was a multi-select menu <water> ic <Tril> So later there could be many more categories... <water> hm <water> i can't get into zope from the front page 09:40pm <Tril> it's extensible in other ways too <water> it <water> oops <Tril> zope.tunes.org not linked from www.tunes.org you mean? <water> yes <water> it asks for a un/pw <water> and mine doesn't work <Tril> what? <Tril> hold on I'll look <water> starting at zope.*, select review, then categories <water> at cats, you get a popup for the un/pw <Tril> I didn't <Tril> exited my browser, so I was logged out <Tril> I haven't had a problem. <ult> how can i edit the DB by hand <Tril> water: are you logged in as water, and it lets you edit, but not view regularly? <Tril> ult: at bespin, type psql review <water> yep <Tril> you need to know SQL <ult> i do <ult> quite well ;) <Tril> it <ult> FATAL 1: SetUserId: user 'ultima' is not in 'pg_shadow' <Tril> it is postgresql <Tril> haha <ult> Not PSQL though <ult> what username? <ult> root? <Tril> no, I need to make one for you silly <Tril> hold on <ult> ok ;) <Tril> try it now -:- SignOff billh: #TUNES (BitchX-1.0c16 -- just do it.) <Tril> actually... you may not have permission to review yet <water> heh <water> not have permission to look at it? <water> hm now it works <Tril> water: I was talking to ultima..sidetracked from your prob. <Tril> water: You should be able to do anything that an anonymous user (not logged in) can. <water> yeah i think it was a random ie5 error <water> it's going to take a while to port review at this rate :) <Tril> water: find helpers! <ult> hmm <water> give out my password? :P <Tril> No.. I'll create more users <water> Tril: sounds like News/Email announcement to me :) <Tril> well, is it ready yet? <water> it works, doesn't it? <ult> it works <ult> i'd like to see more features <water> besides, this is an internal piece of software <ult> namely deletion <water> yes deletion would help <water> and editing text blurbs, but i already mentioned that ;) 09:50pm <Tril> I know you want to ddelete the random garbage I put in :) <Tril> water: no, there definitely is a problem with the categories page. <water> oh ok <ult> uh <ult> hmm <_Gadget_> laters <ult> Tril: It might not be a bad idea to have implementations have a direct link to the projects "home" if there is one -:- SignOff _Gadget_: #TUNES (The cheese stands alone.) <Tril> ult: You can add a link to an implementation for exactly that purpose <ult> it would also be nice if things could share implementations <Tril> ult: I guess we could have an "order" to the links but for now there is no order, so the "official" homepage should just be the first one you add <ult> without of course editing the DB by hand ;) <Tril> ult: Why do you want to share implementations? <Tril> give an example <ult> because I want a "generic" Lisp entry that gives a brief overview for example <ult> then specific entries for the dialects <water> yeah scheme is a lisp <Tril> There is no place for language families if that is what you mean <water> or any other lisp that is not just a cl <Tril> That would go in categories, which water asked about already and is for the future * ult/#tunes nods <Tril> okay, good <ult> ok <ult> so for now we shall skip catagories 10:00pm <ult> Except Lisp is ther ebut who cares <ult> we need guidelines for review items <ult> what should and should not be in there <ult> what is appropriate for implementations or catagories ;) * water/#tunes and eihrul are privately hammering out slate stuff <Tril> hey, who's adding categories? <ult> Heh I added Lisp just for fun <Tril> I am glad everyone knows what anchor text is <Tril> ok, at least water -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[207-172-225-75.s75.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com]) <ult> Er <ult> I don't? ;) <Tril> I thought maybe thats why you didnt add any links.. <water> the "powered by zope" logo keeps reloading every god damned time :) <Tril> <a href="url">anchor text here</a> :-) <ult> I added implementations <ult> but <ult> i'm reading at the moment <Tril> it reloads?? <ult> so i'm not exactly playing with review a lot ;) <water> ya its not getting cached <Tril> it's on zope.org, I can't control it :) <water> heh <Tril> I think the license says I have to keep the logo there, maybe I'll check someday -:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-230.s230.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes <Tril> Well, for now, I have figured out (at least in netscape) if you get the Authorization question after you logged in, just hit cancel and then reload and it should work <ult> uh <ult> is Zope GPL? <ult> I thought it was <Tril> no, it's ZPL <ult> mm ok * ult/#tunes watches his HDD go to sleep again <Tril> ok, actually I forget <Tril> yes I was right, Zope Public License <Tril> "While it is not a license violation to remove this button, it is requested that the attribution remain." 10:10pm <Tril> whatever!!! I always am unsure of licenses that put things that are optional in them. Like, "Do whatever you want with this software but please donate money" or something -:- _Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes 10:20pm <extrasolar> Do you beleive that Slate can be implemented efficiently? Like compared to, lets say, C++. The language seems to be very abstract. <water> yes <ult> with a good optimizing compiler slate could be speedy <water> have you read about Self? <extrasolar> no <extrasolar> I will, though <extrasolar> ult: okay <_Luke> if something's actually used, people will always figure out a way to make it fast :) <_Luke> windows 95 notwithstanding. <_Luke> (morning all :)) <water> re <extrasolar> it seems that if the entire OS relies upon a language, the language should be able to handle simulations, complex calculation, 3D graphics, etc. things that require that kind of performance <water> you can do that with a dynamic and untyped language <extrasolar> or would there be libraries written in the LLL that are called from the HLL? 10:30pm <water> basically, you can compile the code for specialized datatypes <water> and keep 2 versions <water> one for the abstract case, one for the particular concrete one you know will show up -:- SignOff _Luke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _Luke[203.46.39.102]) <water> if you need the optimization in an absolute sense, you define a context where the low-level representations are fixed <water> and use the meta-level to make sure the optimized versions of the code are automatically used <extrasolar> okay, so like static typing only when you needed it <water> ya <water> sorry, gotta work stuff out with eihrul <extrasolar> later <water> ok <extrasolar> bye all, nice talking -:- SignOff extrasolar: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) <Tril> hmm, even though I made category a multi-select box... <Tril> I don't think it will work if you pick more than one :) * Tril/#tunes makes it single select for now <water> oh 10:40pm <water> god damn, this is a tough language to build <water> too many odd concepts 10:50pm -:- _Luke [luke@203.46.39.102] has joined #tunes <water> re <water> say... didn't ult volunteer to take over review some time ago? :) <Tril> then he lost his disk <water> his disk? <Tril> he had all his work on the review db on a disk, he lost it, so he gave up <Tril> and didnt tell us for a while <water> :P <water> a few choice words come to mind <Tril> since he is here I guess he can correct the story if I am inaccurate <water> i doubt you're wrong <water> wow if that's true, i doubt i'll ever consider him the same way again <Tril> ok, I added some "back to..." buttons to make editing more convenient <Tril> I'm going to call it a night <Tril> should I post the list first? <water> sure 11:00pm <Tril> sent <water> cool thx <Tril> okay, see you later <water> yep cya -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (l8r) 11:20pm -:- extrasolar [extrasolar@client556.sedona.net] has joined #tunes <water> re <extrasolar> hello, yet again! 11:30pm -:- Downix [plady@pi.dune.net] has joined #tunes <Downix> Hello all. <water> hey <Downix> I now know what lag means <water> you missed Tril <water> why is that? <Downix> Right now I'm lucky to bne online at all <Downix> VIC-20 saves the day <water> heh <Downix> surfing the net at all of 300 baud <water> woohoo! <water> you can't get a 14.4 modem for it? <Downix> man, makes me back..... <Downix> Hell no, the CPU can't process beyond 2400 baud <water> heh <water> i've heard people have gone online with apple ][s and 14.4 modems <Downix> but, It's alive!!!!!! <Downix> actually you can, the problem is the VIC-20's serial port is locked at 2400 baud <Downix> if you used the printer port you should be fully capable of 14.4 or even 28.8 baud <water> there you go <extrasolar> VIC...Commodore? <Downix> but, this is a serial-port VICmodem <water> sounds like a hw project :) <Downix> yes extrasolar, a 1981 Commodore VIC-20 <ult> ~~ 11:40pm <Downix> water: I'm using KERMIT to transfer files to mty freshly installed Linux system (transferred through the printer port) <extrasolar> heh, before my time :) <water> lol <water> linux on vic20? <ult> well <Downix> this is one majorly hack job, but man it's working <ult> I've irc'd off of a graphing calculator <Downix> no, the linux is on my Cyrix 6x86 box which the VIC-20 is a terminal for <ult> (hp48, they have a rs232 port, hook it to a modem and I wrote a little RPL dumb tty) <water> ah <water> so you're bootstrapping from the vic20, ok * ult/#tunes ponders <ult> hey Downix do you know the wiring of the C64 serial cables? <Downix> ult: not off-hand <ult> hmm <ult> it's not straight through is it/ <ult> (Do I need to find and cross any wires?) <Downix> duno * Downix/#tunes is ubergeek right now! <Downix> ullt: beluieve so <ult> heh <ult> yeah i figured i'd at least need to "null-modem" the cable * water/#tunes -> afk <Downix> come on BitchX.... <Downix> I need to find a mail program for Linux that filters as well as Eudora did, and which can interpret HTML mail on the fly <water> doesn't gnome have an outlook clone? <Downix> hmm, never used it, but I have it <Downix> let me try it out <Downix> nevermind, I only have the KDE e-mail, not GNOME <Downix> which is stupid, since the OS came with GNOME as default <water> of course the functionality varies greatly on the version <water> oh 11:50pm <Downix> looking at the GNOME home[page <Downix> mayube I should just apt-get <Downix> and sit here for days.... <Downix> weeks <Downix> months <water> heh <Downix> (this is a 300 baud modem remember) <water> with no ftp client with resume capability ;) <Downix> right <Downix> aarrgghh! <Downix> I need if.h to compile bitchX <extrasolar> you guys mean Evolution? I didn't think that was very functional yet... <water> iow it would be impossible without being able to dl it onto another account remotely, break it up into small pieces there, and then dl'ing those pieces one by one :) <Downix> is that the same as if_inet6.h ? <Downix> nevermind, found it <Downix> found a way to convert my eudora mail files into standard mail files too, not bad <Downix> how hard is it to set up fetchmail/sendmail? <water> hehe <water> for basic purposes? not much <Downix> I have not managed to sucessfuly set up sendmail since 1994 <Downix> never tried fetchmail <Downix> need to set up the filters I need (mostly to sort out mailing list crap) <Downix> time to re-learn everything, Windows made me tsoft [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0611 IRC log ended Sun Jun 11 00:00:01 2000