IRC log started Tue Jun 13 00:00:01 2000
<Tril> editing reviews is up
<Tril> water did you have some reviews you wanted to modify? :)
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0613
<water> i'm sure there are a few
<water> i already fixed 3 iirc
<Tril> how? 
<water> oh you mean ones of my own
<water> i meant fixing Fare's screw-ups :)
<Tril> yeah, this edit only lets you change reviews you added.
<Tril> water: I edited some of your links and added a note to the Docs:
<Tril> When adding links, use anchor text that is unique, don't
<Tril> just call it "Home Page". On a list of all the links it should be evident what it is a home page FOR. 
<water> wtf?
<Tril> Ie. I changed your "Home Page" under cecil and vortex to say "Cecil Home" and "Vortex Home"
<water> if it's the language's home page, isn't "home page" self evident?
<Tril> Or didn't you add those ? If not, I'm sorry for harassing you
<water> screw you
<Tril> Yes but the same links might be used elsewhere.
<Tril> I might want to browse the list of all links without the context of which entry it was in.
<Tril> Why are you so upset about that. Because I edited your links? The system is set up to allow anyone to edit the other people's links. Links are shared, reviews are private.
<water> get that hair out of your keester, dude
<water> why are you editing my links when there's much more important things to do?
12:10am
<Tril> I was testing my new addition.
<water> well don't make a point of telling me about it
<Tril> Uh, sorry.
<water> you made it sound like i should be reprimanded for that
<Tril> No. I was telling you in case you were going to add any more, that is the style I recommend.
<water> who cares what you recommend?
<water> it's already constricting enough as it is
<Tril> why?
<water> we don't need you going around adding a god damned style guide and enforcing it
<water> if you can't trust what people do on their own, don't let them do it
<water> fill that database out yourself
<hcf> isnt that what review@ is for? submitting reviews which then get styled and posted?
<Tril> water: What's constricting? Do you have suggestions for making it less?
<water> yeah, bugger off
<water> let it be
<Tril> I didn't mean to make a big deal out of it
<water> congradulations
<Tril> do you want me to make the links private to each reviewer, too?
<water> no, i don't care
<water> i objected to you mentioning it to me
<hcf> what about doing factual and opinion parts, factual would have a consistent style and opinion would have freeform?
<Tril> hcf: that's in the works
<hcf> good
<Tril> See, for now it is supposed to be all opinions, until we figure out what the common "facts" will be.
<Tril> (and until I get this part working..which now, it is)
<hcf> why cant we cant just wait til the fact part is setup?
<hcf> so all the opinions dont have to be rewriten
* water/#tunes thinks "facts" on a review will be a joke
<Tril> huh? What facts do you want? Which features of a language/OS are common across all of them?
<hcf> Tril: yeah and urls and such
<Tril> Right, as water says.. when and IF we find any suitable facts. I think it's mostly fine for now
<hcf> ahrg
<Tril> hcf: did you look at it yet?
<hcf> ah no ;)
12:20am
<hcf> will now
<Tril> do you want account?
<hcf> wtf, the way categories-languages looks, its gonna be just a bloated as the old site
<hcf> wheres the toc?
<Tril> There's no way to sort or search yet
<Tril> If it gets big, I'll add a less detailed mode ( I guess that's a toc)
<Tril> you want a list of languages w/o any links, implemetnations, and reviews?
<Tril> it's easy to add..
<hcf> a list w/ fact,opin,both (each 3 r links) next to each lang name
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<water> hi fsf
<hcf> also view by family
<fsf> Hi, i am looking about compiler construction issues and discussion.
<water> ok
<water> what in particular?
<fsf> Well, i am making a compiler for a language named l3.
<water> what language are you interested in compiling for instance?
<water> hm
<fsf> the specification of l3 is also mine :)
<water> is there an online description somewhere?
<water> of course
<water> what sort of language is it?
<fsf> It is low level oriented.
<fsf> l3 = (Low Level Language)
<water> heh
<water> at the level of C? higher? lower?
<fsf> lower. It would be a replacement to C in system develop :)
<water> abi: comp.compilers hp
<abi> comp.compilers hp is at http://www.iecc.com/compilers/
<water> there's a start
<water> personal opinion: yuck
<water> but i will help anyway
<fsf> thanks. I already have a some functional interpreter.
<water> r u in need of parser help? optimizer help?
<fsf> any help would make me very happy :)
<water> abi: _QZ
<abi> _QZ is aka air/liar, the creator of BRiX, and webmaster of http://www.qzx.com or a tyrant or a mormon
<water> there is some info there on assembly, at least
<water> if your language is *that* low-level, i don't see why you couldn't steal code from GCC
12:30am
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<water> and, say, replace the C parser with your own
<water> why'd he leave?
<water> oh well
<fsf> yes, it is a posibility.
<water> at the very least, you could probably pre-process l3 into C
<fsf> the subprogram's structure is like C (not like ALGOL).
<water> ok
<water> well, i think you'll find as much info as you need from that comp.compilers page
<water> and there are plenty of parser-generators around (lex/yacc or bison, for example)
<fsf> ok, thanks. Are you interested? Where can i send you information about the language ?
<water> no, i'm not interested
<water> but thx
<fsf> thanks everybody.
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<water> now that went well
<water> no normative sentences, even :)
<eihrul> water: linear typing seems to very much relate to the object inlining techniques :)
12:40am
<water> no shit
<eihrul> well, sheesh... you don't have to ask SO thoroughly unsurprised :)
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<water> what did you expect from a guy who's been thinking about this crap for months?
<eihrul> well, you could have said, "yes it does"
* water/#tunes gives eihrul a cookie and a brownie
<eihrul> gah
<water> do you fell better now?
<eihrul> well, i never fell in the first place
<water> dude, i get absolutely no moral support on doing this shit for free
<water> billh: some guy's pestering me about ontologies and arrow
<water> billh: but i doubt he groks the idea at all
<water> billh: it's an email exchange, though
<eihrul> water: yeah, only moral support i get for doing this shit for free is you... so there is justice in the universe :P
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<{Alex}> hi
<water> eihrul: school?
<water> hi al
<water> eihrul: at least you will be able to talk to programmers in real life
<water> sorry man, i'm just getting really burnt out on this
* {Alex}/#tunes yawns
<water> i've been with tunes for ~1.7 years now, and all i've gotten from them is shit
<{Alex}> poor boy :)
<{Alex}> what did you expect ?
<water> who are you, anyway? another newbie? you lurk often
<{Alex}> ...
<{Alex}> I am me! I guess! Yes!
<water> another french person, apparently
<{Alex}> ..!
<water> so, what brings you here, alex?
<{Alex}> the wind
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12:50am
<water> why are you interested in tunes?
<{Alex}> i like the idea of revolution
<water> many places sell that idea
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<water> why this one? because it seems most unusual?
<{Alex}> not so many sell this idea apply to computer science
<{Alex}> applied
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<water> is there anything you feel like discussing in particular?
<{Alex}> umm
<water> "umm"?
<{Alex}> it's a philosophy
<water> c'mon, i don't spend time here for my health
<{Alex}> j/k
<{Alex}> really?
<{Alex}> i thought this chan was kinda like a sauna
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<water> please go away
<water> you can read the logs at http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/
<{Alex}> i won't leave, kick me if that can make you feel better
01:00am
<{Alex}> someone should translate the site in french, really...
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<coreyr> because we need more french to come here, right?
01:10am
<{Alex}> no
<{Alex}> because reading english, gives me headache
<coreyr> likewise for french
<{Alex}> :)
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* coreyr/#tunes is away: Hupnos emou, chaire....
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<{Alex}> re
02:30am
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<eihrul> geez, "tiny cobol"
<eihrul> the 7th sign indeed...
02:40am
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<water> g'morning eih
<eihrul> morning
<water> er... afternoon
11:20am
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<Tril> ok, you can now delete your own reviews
<Tril> I couldn't get fastcgi working. I guess zope is fast enough.
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!adams.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 114 (113 clients)
!adams.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr.
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[ TUNES     ] [ smoke     ] [ smklsmkl  ] [ eihrul    ] [ hcf       ] 
[ abi       ] [ Fare      ] [ coreyr    ] 
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<coreyr> re rares
<mysterywindow> sup
04:00pm
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<water> re
08:30pm
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<water> hi cal
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<calabash> hey water
<water> hey tril
<Tril> yo
<water> cal: what brings you here?
<calabash> jus' hangin out
<water> Tril: check out the tunes glossary at diktuon :)
<water> cla: ok, if ya have questions, we have answers
<water> s/cla/cal/
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08:40pm
<calabash> cool. 
<calabash> right now im swamped in some c++ code :)
<water> ewww
<water> we don't answer questions about *that* ;)
<calabash> that i can understand..
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<Tril> hmm, someone write a conversion script? :)
<calabash> conversion script?
<Tril> coreyr?
08:50pm
<Tril> did you enter the glossary by hand?
<Tril> (pasting)
<water> he ported it from "olddata"
<calabash> it would be nice to have an automated tool to bind c++ data types/classes/functions to any other language
<water> hcf and i entered and modified it
<water> from tunes.org to diktuon/olddata
<calabash> u could do it if u had access to a compiler on each platform to generate binary stubs
<water> cal: FFI
<water> foreign-function interface
<calabash> oh? hrmm
<calabash> it handles C++ ?
<calabash> C is easy to bind.. C++ is all incompatible
<water> hm
<water> i don't know for sure
<water> FFI is only used for C afaik
<water> i suppose C++ bindings are nearly impossible because of that
<calabash> yah. there's a standard C calling/linkage convention that everyone follows
<water> but i'm not the guy to ask
<Tril> hcf you awake?
<calabash> u can automatically generate accessor functions in C for C++ data
<hcf> Tril: yeah
<calabash> it would be a bitch.. but it's do-able
<Tril> water: I have an idea about implementing deleting for actual review entries.. is that important enough to discuss?
<water> sure
<Tril> I don't wnat to allow anyone to recursively destroy everything in an entry...
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<Tril> But I don't want anyone to have to manually delete each link one at a time before clearing out the entry.
<water> k
<Tril> So my plan is to allow deleting only if all reviews are gone from the entry. Links can be toasted. But that way everyone who wrote a review would have to agree that it goes away.
<Tril> (since only the author can delete their own review)
<coreyr> make an admin class
<coreyr> and allow them to recursively
<water> hm
09:00pm
<Tril> coreyr: that would only be useful if it consisted of a set larger than myself
<Tril> if there are no objections I think I'll start programming on it :)
<lar1> Tril
<lar1> Good day.
<Tril> hell-o
<Tril> lar1: have you seen my zope review yet?
<water> hey lar could help port reviews from the old tunes.org/review :)
<lar1> Tril:  Yes.  Good work.
<calabash> are these reviews public
<water> yes
<Tril> ya, cal see topic
<calabash> This 'clean' language looks interesting
<water> yes it's pretty good, with graphics bindings
<calabash> awesome
<water> only one company really supports it, though
<calabash> well i wouldn't do any real work w/it
<water> bah :)
<calabash> nope. i'll have to stick to C++ for at least oh... a decade. 
<water> geez
<calabash> until all the legacy api's are available in java
<water> have u heard of Lua?
09:10pm
<calabash> Lua?
<water> abi: lua
<abi> lua is an embeddable language library to extend my programs at http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/lua/ and http://csg.uwaterloo.ca/~lhf/lua/ or http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Lua/
<calabash> man i wish i had time to play w/all these langs
<water> this one is really simple to play with
* water/#tunes is converting diktuon glossary nodes to proper format
<calabash> ive often embedded Tcl in C
<calabash> hah, this was linked from the lua page: http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm
<water> yeah abi already has that one :)
<water> abi stores a lot of url's for us
<water> 1200 right now
<Tril> are all those factoids URLs?
<water> no not all
<water> probably 80% or so
<coreyr> hmm
<coreyr> tril has same idea i have
<coreyr> :)
<water> heh
<water> yeah! unify everything!!! >:)
<Tril> I didn't have an idea, I'm just being picky
<water> oh
<Tril> not that it's a bad idea.
<water> abi's stuff is fairly unstructured
<water> you'd probably do best by "giving" abi a zope account
<Tril> sounds like the same as giving abi a web browser
<water> heh
<coreyr> no
<coreyr> integrating a bot with the link db
09:20pm
<coreyr> whether thru zope or straight to the pgsql
<Tril> but it would be easier, I'm saying, to just make her browse the web
<water> remember abi has no flood-protection as of now
<water> corey: umm
<water> corey: bug... sort of
<water> corey: if i link to an "intro" node, intro should not be the link text, ya know?
<water> or does diktuon already support the linktext syntax?
<water> otherwise, you could just have the linktext for "intro"s be the immediately surrounding namespace name
<water> hm corey's lagged
<coreyr> yeah
<water> yes to what?
* coreyr/#tunes is lagged.
09:30pm
<Tril> lol my sister is hilarious
<water> why's that?
<Tril> someone called for me and when they hungup I told her she had to come get the phone because I wouldn't answer it and she got frustrated
<Tril> since it's not my line..
<water> you pig :)
<Tril> it's because both my mom and I are listening to headphones so she is the only one who could answer it
<Tril> problems problems...
<Tril> should I have an extraneous "Delete Implementations" button when there are 0 implementations...
<water> you think you have problems? try designing Tunes HLL ;)
<Tril> or should I have a "Delete This" next to each implementation
<Tril> I know, I'll wastefully use SQL once again to make it convenient for the user.
<coreyr> heh
<coreyr> tehe
<water> the gloss nodes are holding up well
<coreyr> water: im surprised too. :)
<coreyr> a week, no progess
<coreyr> then 3 hours and elucidation.
<water> you think i'm not familiar with that cycle? ;)
09:40pm
<calabash> hrm. i code 100 lines in C++ and think how much easier it would be to write three lines in tcl/python/perl
<water> or smalltalk :)
<calabash> ive never used smalltalk, but probably so
<water> <propaganda>
<water> abi: squeak?
<abi> squeak is a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars!
<water> </propaganda>
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<calabash> yah another language ive been meaning to learn :)
-:- hcf [nef@207-172-225-85.s85.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<water> this one's not the usual environment
-:- lar1 is now known as whitenoise
-:- whitenoise is now known as lar1
<calabash> maybe im undisciplined, but i like to feel my way through a programming problem without defining rigid types and data structures
<water> then smalltalk is 4 u :)
<coreyr> ARGH! fare if you read the logs, contact me
<coreyr> damn french.
<calabash> indeed
<water> corey: where?
<water> babelfish it
<coreyr> i had data on a french webserver
<coreyr> and they passed a stupid law
<coreyr> and now i lost it
<water> oh yeah
* coreyr/#tunes is pissed
<Tril> use google's cache
<coreyr> good idea
* coreyr/#tunes checks if his page was cached
<calabash> maybe ill just define my own generic superMap in C++ which will let me do things like:  object(key1, key1.1, key1.2, key1.3) = value
<Tril> or you could use python that does that
<calabash> because that is essentially what an object is.. a hierarchy of containers
<calabash> yah any decent scripting language
09:50pm
<Tril> err, actually I dont know what you meant
<water> cal: lua does that really easily
<eihrul> or you could just use Common Lisp :)
<calabash> cool
<calabash> yep
<eihrul> or... APL or PL/I (lmaxson would suggest it if he were here)
<calabash> heh. 
<coreyr> :)
<calabash> tril: i want to write code w/out worrying about the details of accessing sub-objects and what the types of all those pieces of data really are
* water/#tunes whispers "smalltalk"
<Tril> anything but C++?
<calabash> instead of:   x = a->getSomething(); if (x) x->FindData("key")  etc...
<eihrul> water: smalltalk still suffers somewhat from the problem
<water> how so?
<coreyr> not cached.
* coreyr/#tunes sighs.
<eihrul> water: well, one of the nasty things about class based OO is that it forces you to define your interface up front, or atleasy try :)
<calabash> cached?
<eihrul> water: you can't just write sloppy and unstructured code all over the place as in procedural
<water> eihrul: i don't follow
<eihrul> OO is not very good for incremental programming :)
<water> you send objects messages... if they don't respond, then you're not doing OO
<water> uhh
<water> what r u smoking?
<eihrul> nothing, the unit of modularity in OO as in smalltalk is the object
<water> i can extend classes dynamically in smalltalk very easily
<water> it's trivial, in fact, in most cases
<water> the only thing you're missing is per-object behavioral extension, which you need either a library for, or a prototype-based language
<water> otherwise, you
<water> 're just not familiar enough with smalltalk to talk about it
<eihrul> its not that i don't like OO, i just notice that i find myself trying to more completely specify an interface when programming in an OO style than a procedural or functional style
<water> interface? as in a multi-method style?
<eihrul> interface as in the behavior of a specific object
<water> oh a protocol
<eihrul> s/object/class of objects
<water> why?
<water> that's missing the point of OO... let the superclass do the work for you
<eihrul> because OO-thinking intrinsicly makes me thoroughly examine what the object in question should do and is :)
<water> so?
<water> you shouldn't be writing large protocol classes anyways
<water> that's bad design
<eihrul> i don't
10:00pm
<water> then what's the problem?
<eihrul> nothing, i never said there was one :)
<water> why do you do this??
<eihrul> "this" => ?
<water> <eihrul> water: smalltalk still suffers somewhat from the problem
<coreyr> heh
<water> so what the hell were you saying?
<eihrul> just that for me, that OO tends to make me over specify a "protocol" :P
<water> ok thx for the vacuous statement
<eihrul> er rather, single-dispatch OO
<water> :/
<eihrul> any time man
<eihrul> i have a bunch more if you want
<water> keep 'em to yerself :)
<water> actually
<water> now that you bring it up....
<water> slate :)
<water> it ain't oo, but i want to know how the previous issue relates to it :)
<water> corey: you could simulate nested namespaces by partitioning where the namespaces get listed
<water> corey: and giving each namespace a "list (sub)namespaces" link
<eihrul> anyone, afk for a bit to finish reading my fud chain book :)
<water> damnit :)
<water> was just going to mention how nonlinear typing could be isolated by providing one kernel primitive object for it
<coreyr> water: i think im going to leave it how it is, till i feel up to another db reorg
<water> ok
<coreyr> each node will be a nodespace
<coreyr> and have parent info
<coreyr> :)
<water> oh
10:10pm
* coreyr/#tunes is away: o phile, Hupne.
<coreyr> night.
<water> ok
10:20pm
* water/#tunes is considering the implications of linear typing/namespace principles to desired slate features and tools
* Tril/#tunes is writing a doubly nested SELECT statement in sql
<water> heh hacking sql
<water> not for the squeamish :)
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Hugi!)
<water> lol
<Tril> why is everyone talking in foreign languages
<water> corey is a greek fanatic
<Tril> this is like doing a breadth first search backwards
<water> lar is just plain crazy
<Tril> delete the outermost layer.. then the next one in from that. each time you have to start at the beginning again
<water> hm
<water> optimizing an sql statement is an art
<Tril> I could probably use variables..but I don't really want to use them unless they are standard
<water> and corey hasn't implemented the plumbing for renaming namespaces yet :P
10:30pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<calabash> ahh its 3AM
<calabash> err make that 2AM
<calabash> plenty of hacking left to do..
<Tril> whew
<water> heh
<Tril> 10-line sql statements are exhausting
<water> i bet they are
<Tril> now I just need an interface for choosing which entry to delete
-:- smoke [smoke@15dyn186.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
11:10pm
<water> linear naming is cool
11:20pm
<water> damn it
11:30pm
<water> heh i posted a mail about that paper and included everything but the url :)
<water> but it's fixed now
<water> ping
<Tril> wha?
<water> just checking
<Tril> Do you need me to delete the mail from the queue before it gets sent to everyone?
<water> it's a short one... no worries
<water> hmm
<water> equational specification of object creation and deletion in a linearly typed system is interesting
11:40pm
<water> you can specify all sorts of buffering mechanisms that way
<Tril> what exactly is linear typing? (without givng a paper reference)
<water> since a buffer is an object containing a certain number of elements whose behavior could be equationally specified
<Tril> actually I think I have the paper
<water> check the diktuon glossary entry for linear logic :)
<Tril> wait, that's linear logic. same thing? Ok
<water> yep
<water> except the linear naming thing relates more to objects as connected namespaces (iow slate-style objects)
<water> keep in mind, there are ways to simulate nonlinearity in a linear system
11:50pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0614
IRC log ended Wed Jun 14 00:00:01 2000